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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:30 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:Rakhmanov has said they decided to join two dry docks together at 35th Ship repair center.

    It needs a dock with 305m length, the two docks are only 187 and 236m long. It would take a couple years to carry out such work and not as easy as knocking out a wall. As mentioned it would also effect icebreaker refits which are the life blood of the Arctic. The other solution is ordering a floating dock from China, which would also take years. Any solution sees completion of the refit being pushed back from 2021 to 2023 or later.
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    Post  marcellogo on Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:01 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:Rakhmanov has said they decided to join two dry docks together at 35th Ship repair center.

    It needs a dock with 305m length, the two docks are only 187 and 236m long.  It would take a couple years to carry out such work and not as easy as knocking out a wall.  As mentioned it would also effect icebreaker refits which are the life blood of the Arctic.  The other solution is ordering a floating dock from China, which would also take years.  Any solution sees completion of the refit being pushed back from 2021 to 2023 or later.    

    Are not the russian shipbuilders able to built ships in separate parts and link them together?
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:29 am

    marcellogo wrote:

    Are not the russian shipbuilders able to built ships in separate parts and link them together?

    Modular shipbuilding is not really a thing in Russia. Once the pieces are connected you wouldn't pull them apart anyway. You need a a dry dock to get the ship out of the water to service it.
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    Post  Guest on Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:36 am

    marcellogo wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:Rakhmanov has said they decided to join two dry docks together at 35th Ship repair center.

    It needs a dock with 305m length, the two docks are only 187 and 236m long.  It would take a couple years to carry out such work and not as easy as knocking out a wall.  As mentioned it would also effect icebreaker refits which are the life blood of the Arctic.  The other solution is ordering a floating dock from China, which would also take years.  Any solution sees completion of the refit being pushed back from 2021 to 2023 or later.    

    Are not the russian shipbuilders able to built ships in separate parts and link them together?

    Floating docks are mostly used for overhaul.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:34 am

    It would take a couple years to carry out such work and not as easy as knocking out a wall. As mentioned it would also effect icebreaker refits which are the life blood of the Arctic.
    That would be the less of 2 or 3 evils, i.e. towing the Adm. K elsewhere, &/ buying a new floating drydock & towing it there, delaying its refit. Once completed, that joined dock will accommodate 2 or more ships/subs at the same time.
    Later, they may salvage the PD-50- even if it's not repaired, the scrap metal alone is probably worth it.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:33 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    It would take a couple years to carry out such work and not as easy as knocking out a wall. As mentioned it would also effect icebreaker refits which are the life blood of the Arctic.
    That would be the less of 2 or 3 evils, i.e. towing the Adm. K elsewhere, &/ buying a new floating drydock & towing it there, delaying its refit. Once completed, that joined dock will accommodate 2 or more ships/subs at the same time.
    Later, they may salvage the PD-50- even if it's not repaired, the scrap metal alone is probably worth it.

    Part of the industrial policy that guides the implementation of projects is its value to the industry. That is the work it provides to your shipyards, the aircraft manufactures, missiles, weapons ect. The most important factor is export potential. The reason it has been kept around this long was as a ship to test deck fighters with export potential, that being MiG-29K and its future variants. If we have to pay China to build us a dry dock, or work on it in a Chinese shipyard that is work not going to our shipyards and also raising the cost to profit margin. Let us be blunt, the ship has served no military purpose over the course of its life and it never will. The excursion over Syria was a complete disaster and national embarrassment. The money allocated for its refit was cut in half and cut out adding any new equipment that would benefit our suppliers. The recent RFI by India for 57 deck fighters does not include MiG as a real contender. It does not make industrial or financial sense to keep this ship operational. It is time to put it to rest, sell our MiG-29Ks to India and put all of that money into building the Shtorm.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:27 am

    They won't sell their mig-29 because Shtorm will mostly carry them.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:32 am

    Isos wrote:They won't sell their mig-29 because Shtorm will mostly carry them.

    By the time Shtorm would be IOC the current 29s would be EOL... it is going to take that long.  A new CATOBAR design will be required. It is time to invest in the future, not the past.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:09 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:They won't sell their mig-29 because Shtorm will mostly carry them.

    By the time Shtorm would be IOC the current 29s would be EOL... it is going to take that long.  A new CATOBAR design will be required.  It is time to invest in the future, not the past.

    I know but if shtorm is only ready, I mean ready to operate, in 15 years from now they will need something new to keep the carrier based capability. Today's pilot with the experience of carrier operation, which is by the way very modest, will be retired or even lose that experience.

    And how it goes it looks like K has no future or very short one.

    Then they will need something btw the K end and the Shtorm. Something like a light Shtorm fast to build.
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    Post  nero on Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:14 pm

    [quote="Isos"]
    Vladimir79 wrote:Then they will need something btw the K end and the Shtorm. Something like a light Shtorm fast to build.
    They don't need a carrier at all. They never needed one or used carriers in the same way the US Navy did.

    The AK is a cruiser with the ability to launch aircraft. It was meant to protect the fleet (surfacing nuclear submarines) rather than an entity that was supposed to be protected, like American carrier and their strike groups. This is why it has a huge amount of armaments (before it was somewhat gutted)

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    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:18 pm

    nero wrote:
    They don't need a carrier at all. They never needed one or used carriers in the same way the US Navy did.

    The AK is a cruiser with the ability to launch aircraft. It was meant to protect the fleet (surfacing nuclear submarines) rather than an entity that was supposed to be protected, like American carrier and their strike groups. This is why it has a huge amount of armaments (before it was somewhat gutted)


    Aircrafts > ships.

    If you want a blue water navy you will need fighters in the air to protect the ships. Be it in open ocean or near an enemy.

    Air defence on ships are now only good against the antiship missiles targeting them, the aircrafts launching them stay out of range or use radar horizon to hide.

    With a carrier you can intercept the fighters before they can launch their missiles, you can destroy enemy fleet, you have a big plateform to carry a ten or more ka-27 to fight subs and you can use the fighters to launch cheaper kh-59 missiles in bigger numbers against enemy bases while kalibr are limited by the uksk space and numbers.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:56 pm

    Isos wrote:

    I know but if shtorm is only ready, I mean ready to operate, in 15 years from now they will need something new to keep the carrier based capability. Today's pilot with the experience of carrier operation, which is by the way very modest, will be retired or even lose that experience.

    And how it goes it looks like K has no future or very short one.

    Then they will need something btw the K end and the Shtorm. Something like a light Shtorm fast to build.

    Operating any of the current equipment would have little to do with operations on the Shtorm. All of the current cadre would be retired by then so keeping the skills for something totally foreign are irrelevant. With the new super carrier the skills to operate on and from it will be built from scratch.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:55 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:They won't sell their mig-29 because Shtorm will mostly carry them.

    By the time Shtorm would be IOC the current 29s would be EOL... it is going to take that long.  A new CATOBAR design will be required.  It is time to invest in the future, not the past.

    I know but if shtorm is only ready, I mean ready to operate, in 15 years from now they will need something new to keep the carrier based capability. Today's pilot with the experience of carrier operation, which is by the way very modest, will be retired or even lose that experience.

    And how it goes it looks like K has no future or very short one.

    Then they will need something btw the K end and the Shtorm. Something like a light Shtorm fast to build.

    By the time a carrier like a shtorm is laid down and ready for use all of the current pilots would be retired, again you just don't lay down a carrier, they have things to do before they are ready, like Vlad mentioned docks etc.

    I've said all of this alias people don't wanna hear it, cause it comes from an american.

    That said there is ways they can keep carrier training going, Russia also isn't going to lay down a new CV just for the pilots to train on.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:04 pm

    The UDKs will be built before any CVNs, as they r higher priority & actually more useful to the VMF; if need be, some naval aviators will be kept at NITKAs to train others, if they refuse those orders, they'll be prosecuted & lose their retirement pay. The VMF isn't a yacht club!
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    Post  Dima on Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:15 pm

    I see a lot of uncertainty regarding suitable place for refitting the Kuznetsov (or for that matter, building a new carrier), but I would like to repeat what I have posted/said year(s) before - Zaliv is back in Russia and it has to be utilised to built/repair aircraft carriers. I had long back posted updates regarding the small scale repair works, housing projects etc that was planned/undertaken for the yard and yet I'm surprised that people simply doesn't even remember a very large yard that came back to Russia after loosing it for over 25 years.

    Zaliv has got the required dry docks for accommodating large ships. Only thing needed is the will (to make it happen, including modification/modernisation), which will open the gates (Turkey) for Kuznetsov to enter (tow) the Black sea for modernisation. This way the yard will also get prepared for any future plans w.r.t carrier construction. One of the main obstructions that I see in the current situation is leeching from other yards, particularly the large Zvezda in far east.   

    http://www.zaliv.com/en/graving-dock-and-building-berths
    The graving dock (360 x 60 x 13.2 m) is serviced by two gantry cranes, 320 t capacity each and 5 portal cranes, 80 t capacity. The cranes enable to assemble a hull from large sections and blocks weighing up to 600 t.

    It is possible to divide the graving dock into two spaces by a caisson and repair vessels in parallel with ship construction. The other building area has two horizontal building berths, 400 m long with following cranes: 2 cranes of 80 t lifting capacity, 3 cranes of 32 t lifting capacity, 4 cranes of 16 t lifting capacity. Both berths have a common side launch providing for launching of vessels up to 2500 t steel weight.

    The longest ship built there was an Oil tanker (6 nos were built) with following dimensions

    Max. length - 295,2 m
    Length between perpendicular - 277,1 m
    Breadth  -   45 m
    Deadweight - 150000 t
    Displacement - 181000 t
    http://www.zaliv.com/en/shipbuilding


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    The main 360m dry dock
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    The twin 400m building berths
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    And its a beautiful yard, always liked its layout.
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    Post  Dima on Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:25 pm

    Some snaps from the event when some financial aid trickled down to Zaliv for some small scale construction
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 19 Dr-97_10
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    Main dry dock
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    The Ukrainians definitely weren't happy.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:44 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The UDKs will be built before any CVNs, as they r higher priority & actually more useful to the VMF; if need be, some naval aviators will be kept at NITKAs to train others, if they refuse those orders, they'll be prosecuted & lose their retirement pay. The VMF isn't a yacht club!

    Our biggest weakness right now is marine gas turbines. Our biggest strength is nuclear propulsion, a new carrier and destroyer class based on nuclear is the one thing we can do right now if we invest the money.
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    Post  Dima on Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:55 pm

    marcellogo wrote:Are not the russian shipbuilders able to built ships in separate parts and link them together?
    Yes they do. Yantar shipyard build the second set of Indian 11356 Frigates with small modules like we see below. This one of the bow being shifted from its workshop to be placed on the hull. Search for 11356 construction at Yantar and you will get much more images of hull sections in varying degree of completion.
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 19 Imgp3210

    Modules like these make up the hull. Modular construction varies on complexity, but still these are all modular construction.
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 19 Imgp3510Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 19 Imgp3610
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    Post  marcellogo on Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:33 pm

    Dima wrote:
    marcellogo wrote:Are not the russian shipbuilders able to built ships in separate parts and link them together?
    Yes they do. Yantar shipyard build the second set of Indian 11356 Frigates with small modules like we see below. This one of the bow being shifted from its workshop to be placed on the hull. Search for 11356 construction at Yantar and you will get much more images of hull sections in varying degree of completion.
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 19 Imgp3210

    Modules like these make up the hull. Modular construction varies on complexity, but still these are all modular construction.
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 19 Imgp3510Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 19 Imgp3610

    Thanks a lot.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:10 pm

    Modular design for a shorter but wider catamaran carrier would be a nice idea. Someone here defended the idea.

    The take off and landing part would be separeted so the lenght doesn't need to exceed more than 200m.

    But catamarans are not good in bad weather with big waves so unlikely they go for it.

    Anyway they may even go for a normal design with modules of 50m. Theorically possible.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:18 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:The UDKs will be built before any CVNs, as they r higher priority & actually more useful to the VMF; if need be, some naval aviators will be kept at NITKAs to train others, if they refuse those orders, they'll be prosecuted & lose their retirement pay. The VMF isn't a yacht club!
    Our biggest weakness right now is marine gas turbines.  Our biggest strength is nuclear propulsion, a new carrier and destroyer class based on nuclear is the one thing we can do right now if we invest the money.
    Putin boasted that Russia is now import-independent from Ukrainian made turbines. If need be, they'll keep making them until they get them right. A big UDK/CV hybrid can also be nuclear powered, esp. if it'll have some ice breaking capability.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:40 am

    Russia needs to invest in shipyards that allow them to work with bigger ships... even if they never make a 100K ton US like carrier, they will be working with large tankers for crude oil and gas transport around the world for the next few decades, so they need shipyards that can build and work on and maintain large ships of all shapes and sizes.

    That means dry docks and floating docks of all types... the dry docks they were working on the Kuznetsov were not built in Russia but it would certainly not hurt them to design and build some now because big ships are needed... whether they are for the military or civilian use around the world.

    New Cruisers of 20K ton size and bigger are going to be built and likely large aircraft carriers and aircraft carrying ships like helicopter carriers will be useful so they need places to build and places to dock and operate from as well... and they need dry docks to operate from too.

    They have spent money in the far east to make big ships like tankers but also nuclear powered large military vessels.

    I don't think enormous US like carriers are what they need... they have shown multi hull ships of 45K tons that have wide decks and hulls that can carry bigger air compliments than the Kuznetsov currently carries meaning more fighters and AWACS platforms in a ship rather lighter than the current Kuznetsov... which is a good thing because that means it wont cost the Russian taxpayer too much to build and to operate, yet will offer a global reach that will mean export and trade with the rest of the world which is what Russia needs to grow economically and politically to improve its future potential.

    If you can't handle the Kuznetsov now then how can you expect to operate the 20K plus ships that will form the core of your fleet in 10-15 years in the future that these carriers will be developed to support?

    Ironically it is the bigger ships with nuke power systems that Russia has the best potential, they just don't have the place to dock them... but investment in the northern and pacific fleets should allow that in the near future and expansion of other ports will be needed anyway because the future of the Russian Navy will be bigger ships, but also their future will be bigger civilian trading ships too... bigger crude tankers and bigger gas tanker ships as well as bigger container ships and bigger goods transports... from Russia to the world and from asia to europe and back via the north sea route they are developing.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:02 am

    Huh, it's as if my posts end up being ignored.

    I'll say it again, Zvezda shipyard.

    I'll repeat

    Zvezda shipyard.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:24 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Putin boasted that Russia is now import-independent from Ukrainian made turbines. If need be, they'll keep making them until they get them right. A big UDK/CV hybrid can also be nuclear powered, esp. if it'll have some ice breaking capability.

    This article sums up the state of it relatively well...

    https://southfront.org/underreported-problems-of-russian-navy/
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:54 pm

    That article states they have moved onto domestic and there is a push for it. Mind you, it is for all smaller ships.

    As for larger ships like an aircraft carrier, why not use nuclear? Since nuclear engines from Russia work well.

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