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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

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    hoom


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    Post  hoom Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:07 pm

    Meh, only source is in English with language like
    Russia is not able without assistance to ensure maintenance and modernization of Soviet military equipment.
    Anglo named reporter with establishment US media history...

    A quick perusal of other articles/headlines showing a distinct pro-404 bent, only negative Russia stories & About page full of other Anglo names I'll file them under 'another US Govt funded anti-Russia propaganda outlet'.
    ie not believe a word.
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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:12 pm

    Probably BS especially since Zvezda could handle the ship as well. They have the necessary dock. Only reason why they didn't move it there was because the floating dock was enough at the time.
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    Post  hoom Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:25 am

    Variations of that article have popped up elsewhere too.
    Apparently original source is South China Morning Post https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/2179553/china-makes-turbine-blade-breakthrough-could-give-type-055
    Is mainly about China making breakthrough in turbine blade manufacturing but adds
    A source close to the Chinese shipbuilding industry said Beijing’s achievement on turbine blade technology development was made with the help of foreign counterparts, especially through a cooperation agreement signed between Russian United Engine Corp and China’s state-owned Harbin Turbine Co in July of last year.

    “Russia needs China to retrofit its only aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov-class carrier, whose hull, deck and other parts were all damaged following a series of accidents earlier this year,” the source said.

    “Chinese shipbuilders in Dalian, Liaoning province, are capable of retrofitting the Admiral Kuznetsov-class carrier, based on their experience of refitting the country’s first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning.”
    That reads as 'China is offering' not 'Russia will send'.

    As miketheterrible: if Russia sends K to the East for repair it can send to Zvezda instead (depending on reality of the 'no military work' clauses)

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    Post  Kimppis Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:22 am

    Looks very speculative to me, especially that "Anglo guy" (Nextbigfuture, right?) seems to mention the problems with Kuznetsov just to support his narrative that China and Russia somehow really need each other when it comes to shipbuilding. So China's "breakthrough" is probably real, and so is Sino-Russian cooperation in general. But I don't see how that has necessarily anything to do with Kuznetsov and PD-50.

    That reads as 'China is offering' not 'Russia will send'.

    Exactly. Or maybe not even that, some journalists and "experts" simply realized that China has 2 similar carriers...

    The "Russia is not able without assistance to ensure maintenance and modernization of Soviet military equipment" is beyond stupid on so many levels and "kozweek.com" as a source is... crap.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:46 am

    They r not in a hurry to spend $ & taking additional risks towing it to China & then sailing it back. But they could order a new drydock there, "no questions asked" about military use. It could then be used in the FE by the Pac. Fleet ships & subs so they don't need to go to yards in the European part Russia.
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:45 pm

    Maybe we should just let the Chinese sort out our problems for us in 12 months and for a reasonable price; instead of spending the next few years with this hulk while more money is spent and more accidents happen.
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    Post  miketheterrible Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:50 pm

    Zevzda plant can house currently up to 100,000 tons at it's docks while being set up for upwards to 300,000 tons.

    They can do it there if need be currently.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:03 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Maybe we should just let the Chinese sort out our problems for us in 12 months and for a reasonable price; instead of spending the next few years with this hulk while more money is spent and more accidents happen.

    I am still waiting on explanation for why should they even bother with this museum piece instead of investing in usable fleet
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    Post  Isos Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:18 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Maybe we should just let the Chinese sort out our problems for us in 12 months and for a reasonable price; instead of spending the next few years with this hulk while more money is spent and more accidents happen.

    I am still waiting on explanation for why should they even bother with this museum piece instead of investing in usable fleet

    Too late. They spend money on it already. And, unlike many people here, they very well know a new carrier is beyond their capabilities right now.

    Kuz is their only option and with PtG, Slava and oscar II it can still pack a formidable mix of P-700/1000 against any force that comes in the north.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:51 pm

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Maybe we should just let the Chinese sort out our problems for us in 12 months and for a reasonable price; instead of spending the next few years with this hulk while more money is spent and more accidents happen.

    I am still waiting on explanation for why should they even bother with this museum piece instead of investing in usable fleet

    Too late. They spend money on it already. And, unlike many people here, they very well know a new carrier is beyond their capabilities right now.

    Kuz is their only option and with PtG, Slava and oscar II it can still pack a formidable mix of P-700/1000 against any force that comes in the north.

    New carrier his also beyond their needs, several decent frigates would be far more useful
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:28 pm

    I am still waiting on explanation for why should they even bother with this museum piece instead of investing in usable fleet
    D. Donskoi SSBN is also a museum piece, but it's still useful in tests of SLBMs. The Adm. K is useful in keeping their carrier aviation alive for the time being.
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    Post  hoom Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:16 pm

    just let the Chinese sort out our problems for us in 12 months and for a reasonable price
    by having them build a new floating dock & ship it to Murmansk? Would be my choice.

    But also important to link any new dock with future plans eg no point getting a new 80Kton floating dock if they are going to build a 100Kton future carrier or if there is no future carrier/future carriers are smaller than K.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:12 am

    PapaDragon wrote:I am still waiting on explanation for why should they even bother with this museum piece instead of investing in usable fleet
    Because having some carrier capability (even it falls short of a 100kT nuke flat-top with 90 aircraft) is better than none, especially when it comes to supporting expeditionary forces around your periphery against non-NATOstani opponents.

    The K's foray in Syria was hardly a great success, but it was an issue with basic mechanical issues rather than the vessels overall capabilities.  The much-propagandized propulsion issues didn't adversely affect the campaign and her air-wing sorties as-launched were effective.

    Fix the K and upgrade her to a sensible degree without over capitalising.  Operate her to maintain carrier airwing proficiencies.  Plan for a replacement in 15-20 years.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:08 am

    Fix the K and upgrade her to a sensible degree without over capitalising. Operate her to maintain carrier airwing proficiencies. Plan for a replacement in 15-20 years.

    Exactly, and based on previous and future experiences create a sensible design to eventually replace it in service...
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:13 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:I am still waiting on explanation for why should they even bother with this museum piece instead of investing in usable fleet
    Because having some carrier capability (even it falls short of a 100kT nuke flat-top with 90 aircraft) is better than none, especially when it comes to supporting expeditionary forces around your periphery against non-NATOstani opponents.

    The K's foray in Syria was hardly a great success, but it was an issue with basic mechanical issues rather than the vessels overall capabilities.  The much-propagandized propulsion issues didn't adversely affect the campaign and her air-wing sorties as-launched were effective.

    Fix the K and upgrade her to a sensible degree without over capitalising.  Operate her to maintain carrier airwing proficiencies.  Plan for a replacement in 15-20 years.

    It wasn't a success they sent most of the planes to the air base which conducted air sorties from the base, they did very few from the carrier.

    the deployment of the K is a well-known failure, The planes did alright once they operated from the base.

    But don't lie and say the carrier was a great success.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:44 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:It wasn't a success they sent most of the planes to the air base which conducted air sorties from the base, they did very few from the carrier.

    the deployment of the K is a well-known failure, The planes did alright once they operated from the base.

    But don't lie and say the carrier was a great success.

    I wrote "The K's foray in Syria was hardly a great success".

    Try reading the statement again?  Muricans lack of edumakayshun is legendary but I do expect the bare minimum of reading comprehension.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:59 pm

    At least they can claim that it operated in a real combat zone conducting flight operations, not "in conditions maximally approximating combat", as in the exercises. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the MiG-29Ks stayed on & flew from the Adm.K, AFAIK.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:32 am

    All the missions were planned and executed from the Admiral K, so apart from the failure of the arrester gear system it was actually a success.

    Missions were accomplished and targets destroyed... they just operated from a land base instead of from the carrier that was managing the missions.

    As a test of the carrier itself it basically passed as an operational functional part of the mission to defeat terrorists.

    Or can we call the deployment of F-22 and F-35 to the region a failure as they don't seem to be able to operate in Syrian air space, yet are supposed to be multi trillion dollar super dooper stealth fighters that no one can see... they need to operate at standoff distances launching long range stealth missiles... you know the way the older cheaper 4th generation aircraft did... except those 4th gen aircraft were cheaper to buy and cheaper to operate and you could make them in enormous numbers and operate them cheaply, and of course they could carry much bigger payloads of weapons externally...

    In comparison, the Admiral K had a problem with its arrester gear mechanism but otherwise did what it was supposed to do...
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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:13 pm

    hoom wrote:
    just let the Chinese sort out our problems for us in 12 months and for a reasonable price
    by having them build a new floating dock & ship it to Murmansk? Would be my choice.

    But also important to link any new dock with future plans eg no point getting a new 80Kton floating dock if they are going to build a 100Kton future carrier or if there is no future carrier/future carriers are smaller than K.

    Either way.

    Build us a new floating dock, or fix up the ship and then we can eventually build a floating dock ourselves

    GarryB wrote:All the missions were planned and executed from the Admiral K, so apart from the failure of the arrester gear system it was actually a success.

    Well the whole point of a carrier is to be a floating airfield.

    But if it can't accomplish that task and planes flop into the ocean instead... well then it's not a suitable airfield at all.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:50 am


    Well the whole point of a carrier is to be a floating airfield.

    But if it can't accomplish that task and planes flop into the ocean instead... well then it's not a suitable airfield at all.

    Yeah... you do realise what you are saying...

    They had a problem with the arrester gear... it is not something you can fix in the field... it would be like Armata having a problem with its transmission.

    If you sent the armata to Syria for testing and found a problem with its transmission so they just tested it in place without driving around... tested its ability to find targets, to fire on targets and to communicate with other vehicles... detect targets and threats and add them to its mission combat system and pass that information to other vehicles in its own unit, vehicles in nearby units and up the chain of command to HQ to give an up to date real time situation map of the ground around it.

    When it went back to Russia the first thing they would have fixed was the transmission... but you are saying it was a failure and needs to be scrapped?

    The gearing in the arrester gear on the kuznetsov is supposed to hold the cable in place... when a plane lands it catches one of four cables and pulls on them. When the arrester gear is not working properly it either lets go too easy or tries to stop the aircraft too quickly and the cable either snaps or the aircraft breaks. If it lets go too easy the plane does not slow down and ends up running off the deck into the water or trying to get back into the air again.

    Working correctly the arrester gear feeds out the cable to reduce the strain on the cable and the aircraft absorbing the energy of the landing and spreading it out over a few metres to bring it to a stop... sort of like the opposite of a crossbow string firing a crossbow bolt... imagine a crossbow bolt being fired at a crossbow... backwards... because the bolt is small and light the string can absorb the energy.... make the string a heavy metal cable and it is stronger but still not strong enough to stop a 20 plus ton aircraft at 150km/h plus to bring it to a stop in 30-40 metres... so the arch of the crossbow that absorbs the energy is the gearing of the arrester gear that absorbs the energy so the string doesn't have to take it all itself.

    The deployment of the Kuznetsov wasn't about sending a few extra planes to a foreign country to kill some people who need to be killed... it was about testing sailing away from the Russian coast and performing operations planned and commanded from the Carrier, which is what they did... they did it in Syria but the same missions could be completed anywhere on the planet... which makes the Kuznetsov rather unique and useful for some very specific missions.

    You can bet your ass the arrester gear is fixed already.... but if it isn't and it does not get fixed then you are right... the exercise would then be a failure.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:07 am

    The distance it sailed to E. Med & back = as if it sailed across the Atlantic to the US E. Coast & back.
    Even if they couldn't fix the arresting gear, Adm. K would make a good LHA, i.e. a helicopter, UAV & STOVL fighter carrier, + armed with ASh/LACMs!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  hoom Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:06 pm

    Some newer pics of K https://imgur.com/gallery/ro7i2u4
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    Post  kumbor Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:30 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The distance it sailed to E. Med & back = as if it sailed across the Atlantic to the US E. Coast & back.
    Even if they couldn't to fix the arresting gear, Adm. K would make a good LHA, i.e. a helicopter, UAV & STOVL fighter carrier, + armed with ASh/LACMs!


    WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! Her powerplant NEVER achieved projected full power. Boilers are catastrophicaly futile! Turbines are OK, but boilers and all tubing need complete renewal! What can you do with a ship that cannot sail normally, except creeping on 18 knots on full power of available boilers!
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:09 pm

    LHA/LHD/LPHs don't need to go fast: the Mistrals, ROKS Dokdo & HMS Ocean have the same cruise speed:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistral-class_amphibious_assault_ship
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_(L12)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Dokdo_(LPH-6111)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ship_Juan_Carlos_I: 21 knots

    The stated max. speed of USS Wasp is 22 knots:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wasp_(LHD-1)  

    USS America: over 22 knots, just 4 knots more:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_America_(LHA-6)

    The others had speed ~6 knots more:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Tarawa_(LHA-1): 24 knots

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saipan_(LHA-2): exceeds 20 knots

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Belleau_Wood_(LHA-3): 24 knots

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nassau_(LHA-4): 24 knots

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Peleliu: 24 knots

    That's just ~4,66 & 7mph more, so at that speed, in a 24 hrs, they can cover just ~119 & 168 miles more, respectively.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  kumbor Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:03 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:LHA/LHD/LPHs don't need to go fast: the Mistrals, ROKS Dokdo & HMS Ocean have the same cruise speed:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistral-class_amphibious_assault_ship
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_(L12)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Dokdo_(LPH-6111)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ship_Juan_Carlos_I: 21 knots

    The stated max. speed of USS Wasp is 22 knots:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wasp_(LHD-1)  

    USS America: over22 knots, just 4 knots more:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_America_(LHA-6)

    The others had speed ~6 knots more:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Tarawa_(LHA-1): 24 knots

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saipan_(LHA-2): exceeds 20 knots

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Belleau_Wood_(LHA-3): 24 knots

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nassau_(LHA-4): 24 knots

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Peleliu: 24 knots

    That's just ~4,66 & 7mph more, so at that speed, in a 24 hrs, they can cover just ~119 & 168 miles more, respectively.

    Sorry, but Kuz has been projected and built as a fleet carrier or heavy aircraft carrying cruiser. which is much more expensive than LHA/LHD/LPH or some other non fixed wing carrier. Simple waste of money, shipbuilding facilities, weapons and men if they use it as a creepy smoker!

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