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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

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    Post  LMFS on Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:50 pm

    K's repairs will apparently cost 70 million rubles

    https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.ru/https/vpk.name/news/235825_vosstanovlenie_admirala_kuznecova_oboidetsya_v_70_mln_rublei.html
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    Post  mnztr on Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:if it is just for scrap they could cut bits off it and raise it a piece at a time... blow all the ballast tanks first so nothing floats up before it is wanted, and then cut it to pieces.

    Would be an interesting job for an ROV... such a robot would be quite useful...


    Or maybe they can use an ROV to attach air hoses to all the ballast tanks...park an ROV to observe it and gradually pump air into them... and see what happens. would be kinda fun to try, it breaks up under water then who cares...lol
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    Post  mnztr on Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:43 pm

    LMFS wrote:K's repairs will apparently cost 70 million rubles

    https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.ru/https/vpk.name/news/235825_vosstanovlenie_admirala_kuzInnecova_oboidetsya_v_70_mln_rublei.html

    In the scheme of defence spending that is like 1 cent..lol
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    Post  chinggis on Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:51 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    GarryB wrote:if it is just for scrap they could cut bits off it and raise it a piece at a time... blow all the ballast tanks first so nothing floats up before it is wanted, and then cut it to pieces.

    Would be an interesting job for an ROV... such a robot would be quite useful...


    Or maybe they can use an ROV to attach air hoses to all the ballast tanks...park an ROV to observe it and gradually pump air into them... and see what happens. would be kinda fun to try, it breaks up under water then who cares...lol

    It is not easy at all. It is very difficult, dangerous, very expensive and when submerged object is raised from deep it is raised in sequences, each sequence is lower deep than earlier. Time consuming, expensive. If you try to raise something big form bottom of ocean with blowing all ballast tanks, submerged object is rise fast and when come in to contact with surface it is so violent that brake all connections, links and submerge again. With second submerging object is more damaged. If you want, look how submarine Kursk is raised to surface. In lost Yugoslavia, we have one company who is working on salvaging sunken objects, its name was Brodospas. At that time it was very good one, best in east Mediterranean area, only one is more or less better on west coast in France. But, then come 90s. Now we do not have a company who is working on salvaging sunken objects, we have a small companies, but they are unable to do job on right way and successfully. Once I was working on raising sunken fishing ship, it was wooden ship 40 years old and it is at 50 m deep. We try to rise it four time and every time ship is broke surface and sunk again. Fifth time, it come one old guy from Brodospas, and that time it was successful. I earn 1000Euros for that job.
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    Post  kumbor on Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:if it is just for scrap they could cut bits off it and raise it a piece at a time... blow all the ballast tanks first so nothing floats up before it is wanted, and then cut it to pieces.

    Would be an interesting job for an ROV... such a robot would be quite useful...

    As floating dock is no "state of the art", complicated vessel, and it is not self propelled either, I don`t see much problem in salvaging it and refitting it for further use, though it costs. It`s up to Russians to decide whether it is worth raising it up and refitting. Some sources say it was built in 2000, and some that it dates from 80s, so i can`t say what is true. Raising such dock is not so complicated, i think, because it has no structural damage. As I`ve heard, dock was left without power for ballast pumps, which caused heavy list and made dock capsize. They need sufficient amount of HP air to blow ballast chambers symmetrically so as to float dock to surface and then patch over vents and openings. That`s what I think.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:13 am

    Or maybe they can use an ROV to attach air hoses to all the ballast tanks...park an ROV to observe it and gradually pump air into them... and see what happens. would be kinda fun to try, it breaks up under water then who cares...lol

    Would probably be safer to attach airbags to the structure first and then fill them up to give extra bouyancy and then try to fill the main tanks.
    I suspect the reason it sank in the first place was because there were holes in the internal ballast tanks and when the pumps stopped working because the land based power source failed they just filled up.

    If that is the case then they need extra lift to compensate... something over 300m long would be just too tricky to work with.... balance issues and the risk it might break up and damage itself further... I think cutting it up where it is and removing it a piece at a time makes the most sense in terms of safety and getting rid of the problem... it is rather old and worn out and needs to be replaced anyway.

    Some sources say it was built in 2000, and some that it dates from 80s, so i can`t say what is true.

    Think it was made in 1980s in Sweden... several sources say it was old... this is not some complex piece of machinery... it is a floating dry dock... I am sure if they made a new one themselves they could make it safer and much more useful these days...

    Once I was working on raising sunken fishing ship, it was wooden ship 40 years old and it is at 50 m deep. We try to rise it four time and every time ship is broke surface and sunk again. Fifth time, it come one old guy from Brodospas, and that time it was successful. I earn 1000Euros for that job.

    Sounds to me like you know what you are talking about... I just think I do... Cool This dry dock is huge and I really don't think it is worth salvaging except to remove it from where it is...

    Raising such dock is not so complicated, i think, because it has no structural damage.

    It is a flat bottom with two side walls... it is not exactly a structurally strong structure... you might find it has been weakened but not know until it collapses as it comes up or as it goes back down again... I don't think it is worth the risk.

    It is very useful, but that just means they should make another one... or two or three to replace others in poor condition too.

    Newer designs could be made safer and better.... experience with these dry docks could be used to add useful features to a new model.
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:03 am

    Have no clue about floating docks but, if I was to answer for the reliability and safety of such a monster after it has sunk, I wonder how would I assess until what extent the structure has not been compromised and, instead of 80 kT, its capacity is now less than what the K needs, for instance. Evaluate fatigue of the material in such a big structure seems to me a very complex task, maybe someone in the know can correct me but continuing to use it looks to me a very risky call.
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    Post  chinggis on Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:26 am

    How I say, it is difficult process to rise something what is sunken and it is on bottom of ocean. People can not imagine how is important to know sea bottom of what type of material is made, is it rock, sand or mud. Rise something is easy if it is bottom rock, sand is not so hard too, but if it is made from mud, it is difficult. Mud is soft, and sunken object is always bury itself in it. This is one reason why is so hard to rise objects from muddy bottom. You must make multiple channels for cables what will tie both sides of sunken object to floating cisterns what will be filled with compressed air. When you start filling cisterns with air, you MUST start blowing air in pipes what you are put it between sea bottom and sunken object. This is MUST because mud is soft and make a "vacuum" on sunken object and does not allow object to be lifted. Of course, you can blow air anyway and with enough floating cisterns at one point it will be released from mud and like a torpedo it will go to surface. Whit speed and its mass, when it come to surface it will be fly out few meters in air( in my experience, ship is fly out 2m in air and fall in sea again), some cables what hold cisterns brake and ship is lost her buoyancy and sunk again. When is finally find rest on sea bottom, we dive again and make all work what we are doing last time, again. This ship is not big and extra heavy but we are working almost entire month. From start when I start dive, I suggest to my fellow coworkers that we are doing on wrong way, but I was dismissed and I shut up. My suggestion is, tie floating cisterns to ship, fill with air just enough that a ship will have small but evident buoyancy, blow air in pipes what a buried in mud to ease sticky connection between ship and bottom. When ship is lifted few centimeters from bottom, rescue ships will start lifting it with own capstans and windlasses. Entire process what we are make fifth time is what I suggest to my follow coworkers. We are lift ship 5m from bottom and tow her in 5m shallow water, there we make all preparation for lifting her to another 5m lift and tow. This process is made many times until we come in shallow water, 10 or 12m deep, then pump air in floating cisterns until ship is lifted from water. Ships deck is centimeter higher than sea surface at that time we engage water pumps to empty ships lower decks. All time we are carefully measure distance at bow and stern from sea level, it is important to do that because ship will not get wrong inclination and sunk again.
    So, this process must be done for floating dock, and imagine how hard is to get a dock long 300m at sea surface, can you imagine how expensive that operation will be. With that difficulties what I write, you must count on something like storms, ice, strong currents and low visibility at bottom, cold and deep at what a divers will work (when you are going deeper, pressure is bigger and time what you can work at bottom is shorter, cold and heavy work cause that divers will spent more air than normal( more expensive because you need to refile bottles and send new divers down) and shorten its time to work on sunken ship. And you must count on something that will brake on salvaging ships and you must repair it. Expenses will rise and rise, so in total, rising something from bottom is veryyyy expensive, time and labor consuming, and when you rise sunken object from bottom you must repair it. And tat is new expense. All in all, let the sunken object rest it on bottom in peace.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:37 am

    s"Admiral Kuznetsov" can't be accepted for repair by Sevastopol dock
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:37 am

    "Admiral Kuznetsov" can't be accepted for repair by Sevastopol docks
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    Post  hoom on Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:02 pm

    A very odd suggestion that it could use Sevastopol, there are some decent size drydocks there but as noted in the comments of that article, definitely too small for K.

    Kerch drydock is definitely big enough but I think Russia is more likely to leave K tied up to the dock while building a replacement drydock in the North than tow it all the way to Kerch. (especially if the Granit tubes have actually been deactivated as has been rumored since then Montreaux convention becomes a problem)

    Apparently 10th shipyard (Polyarny) has a RFP to build a new floating dock, short timeframe from 30 Nov to 12 Dec.

    I kinda like the (probably longer term) suggestion of making a proper drydock in the flattened area next to PD-50 which nobody seems to be sure about but appears to have been the start of a drydock for Ulyanovsk.
    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2 - Page 11 Shipyard82roslaykovo82srz.com_-1000x662
    PD-50 on the right, flattened area could house a very big drydock.

    Which is also what you see in the foreground: thats apparently Rosneft plan for a big oil platform shipyard which they've been touting as recently as August this year & why PD-50 was handed over to them in the first place https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/2018/08/navy-gives-way-oilmen-murmansk-shipyard
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:16 pm

    ..if the Granit tubes have actually been deactivated as has been rumored since then Montreaux convention becomes a problem)
    IMO it wouldn't matter as the ship is now inoperable & has no AW embarked, just a few helos at most.
    Even if the refit is delayed, no big deal. Pilots can train on 2 NITKAS.
    TAKRs r now not that essential to defend SSBN bastions as those subs r quieter. Power projection ashore can wait.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:32 am

    The sunken unique floating PD-50 was created unsinkable. So what happened in Murmansk?
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    Post  hoom on Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:54 am

    Via Balancer but apparently a TASS article
    FSUE Atomflot will order billions of rubles to build a new dock to repair icebreakers.
    From six to eight and a half billion rubles may be required for the construction of a dock in Russia for the repair of new nuclear-powered icebreakers.

    According to TASS, citing the fleet technical director of the federal state unitary enterprise Atomflot Oleg Darbinyan, the dock will be built in Russia - it will take about two years. Earlier for this, they planned to use the PD-50 Murmansk dock, but it sank.

    It is planned that the new dock will be able to accept universal nuclear-powered icebreakers currently under construction, but another option will be needed for the giant icebreaker Leader.
    I have wondered about what was being planned for the icebreakers but its surprising that they'd use Coastguard/Atomflot funds for a PD-50 replacement.
    Perhaps Navy will fund a bigger Lider icebreaker (& new CV?) compatible dock later?
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    Post  Hole on Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:31 am

    Rosatom has enough money to build a gold-plated one.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:45 pm

    Interview with USC boss has some info on the PD-50 sinking https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3464185.html
    Q: “After the PD-50 floating accident in Murmansk, almost two months have passed, and there is still no clear answer about the reasons.” According to the latest data, the specialists of the 82nd shipyard (owned by Rosneft), contrary to the rules, carried out eye balancing. Because of this, the PD-50 gave a heel, an unnaturally high load was created on one of the walls, a weld burst, water poured into the dock, and it went to the bottom. Is this really true and is there new data?

    A: - The commission, which was collected by the Ministry of Industry and Trade, gave its conclusion, but there is a special opinion of the specialists of the 82nd plant. The version you have mentioned has grounds, but diving works are still going on, and only on their results can we say something more specific.

    Q: - Are there any plans for the construction of similar pond?

    A: - We have long been raising the issue that in the state armament program (LG) a dock program should take a separate place. Now the general condition of the dock farm leaves much to be desired - it is a question of dry docks, which require repair, and of floating docks. In the investment program, which has been agreed upon and should be approved by the Ministry of Economy in the near future, the situation with transfer devices has already been resolved. We will continue to look at how to get additional funds to close the question once and for all.

    Q: - Where will they repair "Admiral Kuznetsov"?

    A: - Four options are considered, each of which has its own price and its own features. One - the acquisition of the dock where it is available. This issue deals with the 82nd plant. The alternative is to dock Kuznetsov in one of the existing transfer structures. Plus there are a couple of exotic solutions that I don’t want to talk about yet, you first need to perform a number of geological and engineering surveys.

    Q:- What are the repair periods?

    A:- According to "Admiral Kuznetsov" dates do not change. We have two possible dates for re-docking. The first is the summer of 2019, the second, taking into account the redistribution of the order of work on the cruiser — the end of spring — the beginning of summer 2020. We are waiting for the decisions of all parties involved and we will think what to do.
    So not making any rapid decisions.
    Not mentioned but clearly raising & repairing PD-50 is definitely out.
    Geological surveys implies looking into making a new drydock.
    With no rapid moves to replace PD-50 it seems doubtful K can stick to those repair timelines since its been made clear it needs to go back into drydock to finish.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:39 pm

    Well big decision was made regarding the ship herself. I don't know why nobody posts it here.

    https://kozweek.com/russia-gives-china-to-repair-its-only-aircraft-carrier-admiral-kuznetsov/39971/

    I know sources aren't that trustworthy and it didn't gain a lot of attention on Balancer but if it's true it's good news.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:07 pm

    Meh, only source is in English with language like
    Russia is not able without assistance to ensure maintenance and modernization of Soviet military equipment.
    Anglo named reporter with establishment US media history...

    A quick perusal of other articles/headlines showing a distinct pro-404 bent, only negative Russia stories & About page full of other Anglo names I'll file them under 'another US Govt funded anti-Russia propaganda outlet'.
    ie not believe a word.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:12 pm

    Probably BS especially since Zvezda could handle the ship as well. They have the necessary dock. Only reason why they didn't move it there was because the floating dock was enough at the time.
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    Post  hoom on Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:25 am

    Variations of that article have popped up elsewhere too.
    Apparently original source is South China Morning Post https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/2179553/china-makes-turbine-blade-breakthrough-could-give-type-055
    Is mainly about China making breakthrough in turbine blade manufacturing but adds
    A source close to the Chinese shipbuilding industry said Beijing’s achievement on turbine blade technology development was made with the help of foreign counterparts, especially through a cooperation agreement signed between Russian United Engine Corp and China’s state-owned Harbin Turbine Co in July of last year.

    “Russia needs China to retrofit its only aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov-class carrier, whose hull, deck and other parts were all damaged following a series of accidents earlier this year,” the source said.

    “Chinese shipbuilders in Dalian, Liaoning province, are capable of retrofitting the Admiral Kuznetsov-class carrier, based on their experience of refitting the country’s first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning.”
    That reads as 'China is offering' not 'Russia will send'.

    As miketheterrible: if Russia sends K to the East for repair it can send to Zvezda instead (depending on reality of the 'no military work' clauses)

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    Post  Kimppis on Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:22 am

    Looks very speculative to me, especially that "Anglo guy" (Nextbigfuture, right?) seems to mention the problems with Kuznetsov just to support his narrative that China and Russia somehow really need each other when it comes to shipbuilding. So China's "breakthrough" is probably real, and so is Sino-Russian cooperation in general. But I don't see how that has necessarily anything to do with Kuznetsov and PD-50.

    That reads as 'China is offering' not 'Russia will send'.

    Exactly. Or maybe not even that, some journalists and "experts" simply realized that China has 2 similar carriers...

    The "Russia is not able without assistance to ensure maintenance and modernization of Soviet military equipment" is beyond stupid on so many levels and "kozweek.com" as a source is... crap.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:46 am

    They r not in a hurry to spend $ & taking additional risks towing it to China & then sailing it back. But they could order a new drydock there, "no questions asked" about military use. It could then be used in the FE by the Pac. Fleet ships & subs so they don't need to go to yards in the European part Russia.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:45 pm

    Maybe we should just let the Chinese sort out our problems for us in 12 months and for a reasonable price; instead of spending the next few years with this hulk while more money is spent and more accidents happen.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:50 pm

    Zevzda plant can house currently up to 100,000 tons at it's docks while being set up for upwards to 300,000 tons.

    They can do it there if need be currently.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:03 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Maybe we should just let the Chinese sort out our problems for us in 12 months and for a reasonable price; instead of spending the next few years with this hulk while more money is spent and more accidents happen.

    I am still waiting on explanation for why should they even bother with this museum piece instead of investing in usable fleet

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