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    Aircraft Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov: News #2

    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:53 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Huh, it's as if my posts end up being ignored.

    I'll say it again, Zvezda shipyard.

    I'll repeat

    Zvezda shipyard.

    So are you going to put ships into the slipways, therefore, preventing the construction of other ships and delay work.

    Large floating docks EXIST, for this reason, you cannot just stick a large ship on the ship of a harbor and work on it if the work is deep.

    That Shipyard has limited dry dock space ALL SHIPYARDS DO and they cannot afford to jam it with ships and cost time delays which cost money and more to other orders. You act like it has 20 something slots it doesn't.

    Welcome to shipbuilding, The loss of PTD-50 was large for Russia.

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:57 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:That article states they have moved onto domestic and there is a push for it.  Mind you, it is for all smaller ships.

    As for larger ships like an aircraft carrier, why not use nuclear? Since nuclear engines from Russia work well.

    Nuclear ships carry back up diesel or gas engines if I'm not wrong.
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    Post  Guest on Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:02 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Huh, it's as if my posts end up being ignored.

    I'll say it again, Zvezda shipyard.

    I'll repeat

    Zvezda shipyard.

    So are you going to put ships into the slipways, therefore, preventing the construction of other ships and delay work.

    Large floating docks EXIST, for this reason, you cannot just stick a large ship on the ship of a harbor and work on it if the work is deep.

    That Shipyard has limited dry dock space ALL SHIPYARDS DO and they cannot afford to jam it with ships and cost time delays which cost money and more to other orders. You act like it has 20 something slots it doesn't.

    Welcome to shipbuilding, The loss of PTD-50 was large for Russia.


    People somehow imagine that if you have enough of flat land next to the shore it can be used as shipyard xD
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    Post  Guest on Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:03 pm

    Isos wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:That article states they have moved onto domestic and there is a push for it.  Mind you, it is for all smaller ships.

    As for larger ships like an aircraft carrier, why not use nuclear? Since nuclear engines from Russia work well.

    Nuclear ships carry back up diesel or gas engines if I'm not wrong.

    Just if they have auxilary diesel or turbine engines to produce electricity for some critical systems or for their airwing if they have it. Otherwise no.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:09 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Huh, it's as if my posts end up being ignored.

    I'll say it again, Zvezda shipyard.

    I'll repeat

    Zvezda shipyard.

    So are you going to put ships into the slipways, therefore, preventing the construction of other ships and delay work.

    Large floating docks EXIST, for this reason, you cannot just stick a large ship on the ship of a harbor and work on it if the work is deep.

    That Shipyard has limited dry dock space ALL SHIPYARDS DO and they cannot afford to jam it with ships and cost time delays which cost money and more to other orders. You act like it has 20 something slots it doesn't.

    Welcome to shipbuilding, The loss of PTD-50 was large for Russia.


    Has enough with building more. What's your point? Gotta make do with what you got
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:10 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Huh, it's as if my posts end up being ignored.

    I'll say it again, Zvezda shipyard.

    I'll repeat

    Zvezda shipyard.

    So are you going to put ships into the slipways, therefore, preventing the construction of other ships and delay work.

    Large floating docks EXIST, for this reason, you cannot just stick a large ship on the ship of a harbor and work on it if the work is deep.

    That Shipyard has limited dry dock space ALL SHIPYARDS DO and they cannot afford to jam it with ships and cost time delays which cost money and more to other orders. You act like it has 20 something slots it doesn't.

    Welcome to shipbuilding, The loss of PTD-50 was large for Russia.


    People somehow imagine that if you have enough of flat land next to the shore it can be used as shipyard xD

    Are you too stupid to realize zvezda drydock handles over 100,000 tons?

    https://www.ship-technology.com/projects/zvezda-shipbuilding-complex-bolshoi-kamen/
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:23 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:That article states they have moved onto domestic and there is a push for it.  Mind you, it is for all smaller ships.

    As for larger ships like an aircraft carrier, why not use nuclear? Since nuclear engines from Russia work well.

    Nuclear ships carry back up diesel or gas engines if I'm not wrong.

    Just if they have auxilary diesel or turbine engines to produce electricity for some critical systems or for their airwing if they have it. Otherwise no.

    I only remembered that Kirovs has both, nuks and turbines.

    Interesting info from wiki about Artika icebreakers :

    Arktika consumes up to 200 grams of fuel a day when breaking ice. There are 500 kg of Uranium isotopes in each reactor, allowing for at least 13.7 years between changing reactor cores. The used cores are extracted and replaced in Murmansk, the spent fuel reprocessed and waste disposed of at a radioactive waste plant.[6]

    1t for 13 years of operations Shocked That save billions of dollars on fuel compared to diesel and turbines.

    And it rejects no CO2. Which is very good for the planet. Tankers should be all nuclear powered, specially that they would need smaller power plants than carriers and icebreakers so consume even less of uranium.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:36 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Huh, it's as if my posts end up being ignored.

    I'll say it again, Zvezda shipyard.

    I'll repeat

    Zvezda shipyard.

    So are you going to put ships into the slipways, therefore, preventing the construction of other ships and delay work.

    Large floating docks EXIST, for this reason, you cannot just stick a large ship on the ship of a harbor and work on it if the work is deep.

    That Shipyard has limited dry dock space ALL SHIPYARDS DO and they cannot afford to jam it with ships and cost time delays which cost money and more to other orders. You act like it has 20 something slots it doesn't.

    Welcome to shipbuilding, The loss of PTD-50 was large for Russia.


    People somehow imagine that if you have enough of flat land next to the shore it can be used as shipyard xD

    Are you too stupid to realize zvezda drydock handles over 100,000 tons?
    also I am not.sure that US refit their Carriers in floating dry docks. I believe they use the "classic" drydock in the shipyards.

    It would be good, anyway to build a new navy shipyard near murmansk with a large enough drydock AND to get a new floating drydock (the PD-50 was build in 18months in two swedish shipyards and then welded.together (the main shipyard went bankrupt in 1989, btw)). Moving such a big drydock could be quite problematic, and PD50 was damaged on its first voyage to murmansk, so asking.the chineses or the koreans to build it and.then.transfer it could also be risky. Maybe Sevmash in severodinsk or the Rostec shipyard in murmansk could build such a floating drydock?
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:47 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    As for larger ships like an aircraft carrier, why not use nuclear? Since nuclear engines from Russia work well.

    This is what I have been saying all along. Nuclear is the way to go for capital ships. When we need to wave the flag it is not the Admiral K going, it is Peter the Great.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:53 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    As for larger ships like an aircraft carrier, why not use nuclear? Since nuclear engines from Russia work well.

    This is what I have been saying all along.  Nuclear is the way to go for capital ships.  When we need to wave the flag it is not the Admiral K going, it is Peter the Great.

    What would be the estimated cost difference? Because if it really isn't much and you get a ship with unlimited range, then why the heck not?
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:01 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    What would be the estimated cost difference?  Because if it really isn't much and you get a ship with unlimited range, then why the heck not?

    It is a higher upfront cost but saves money on fueling over time. Especially if you plan to be active and use it rather than sitting at the dock most of its life.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:03 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:...........
    What would be the estimated cost difference?  Because if it really isn't much and you get a ship with unlimited range, then why the heck not?

    I would guess much smaller since they will probably use RITM-200 reactors with 20% enriched uranium, it qualifies as civilian product according to IAEA

    KN-3 reactors on Kirovs use 90% enriched uranium

    And don't get me started on safety difference
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    Post  Guest on Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:29 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    also I am not.sure that US refit their Carriers in floating dry docks. I believe they use the "classic" drydock in the shipyards.

    It would be good, anyway to build a new navy shipyard near murmansk with a large enough drydock AND to get a new floating drydock (the PD-50 was build in 18months in two swedish shipyards and then welded.together (the main shipyard went bankrupt in 1989, btw)). Moving such a big drydock could be quite problematic, and PD50 was damaged on its first voyage to murmansk, so asking.the chineses or the koreans to build it and.then.transfer it could also be risky. Maybe Sevmash in severodinsk or the Rostec shipyard in murmansk could build such a floating drydock?

    Depends, but since Americans mostly use their big shipyard dry docks for the use of USN they do maintenace of capital ships there.

    To my knowledge they do not have AFDBs in service anymore, at least not USN as itself, some shipyards probably do. They operate only AFDMs for their submarines and LHAs.

    They probably can build it in few years, i am not sure they would dare into such an adventure atm. There is reason why USSR bought drydocks abroad in a first place.
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    Post  Guest on Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:34 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Just if they have auxilary diesel or turbine engines to produce electricity for some critical systems or for their airwing if they have it. Otherwise no. I only remembered that Kirovs has both, nuks and turbines.




    That is different. Kirovs have CONAS propulsion, Combined Nuclear and Steam propulsion. And are basically only ships ever with such propulsion.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:51 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    also I am not.sure that US refit their Carriers in floating dry docks. I believe they use the "classic" drydock in the shipyards.

    It would be good, anyway to build a new navy shipyard near murmansk with a large enough drydock AND to get a new floating drydock (the PD-50 was build in 18months in two swedish shipyards and then welded.together (the main shipyard went bankrupt in 1989, btw)). Moving such a big drydock could be quite problematic, and PD50 was damaged on its first voyage to murmansk, so asking.the chineses or the koreans to build it and.then.transfer it could also be risky. Maybe Sevmash in severodinsk or the Rostec shipyard in murmansk could build such a floating drydock?

    Depends, but since Americans mostly use their big shipyard dry docks for the use of USN they do maintenace of capital ships there.

    To my knowledge they do not have AFDBs in service anymore, at least not USN as itself, some shipyards probably do. They operate only AFDMs for their submarines and LHAs.

    They probably can build it in few years, i am not sure they would dare into such an adventure atm. There is reason why USSR bought drydocks abroad in a first place.
    I believe they bought it abroad because all their shipyards were busy building ships, and they did not want to keep one or two of them busy with a floating dock for a couple of years. That shipyard in Sweden was quite big and almost without orders, so it's possible that they got a good deal.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:30 am

    The take off and landing part would be separeted so the lenght doesn't need to exceed more than 200m.

    The problem is that to get it shorter you have to make it much wider, which when it comes to operating in international shipping lanes and of course most ports, including canals and dry docks it is easier to handle a long ship than a wide ship because long ships are actually much more common than very wide ones which are limited to oil rigs or radar rigs for ABM systems...

    As for larger ships like an aircraft carrier, why not use nuclear? Since nuclear engines from Russia work well.

    They have already invested a lot of money developing new nuclear power plants for big ships... they have not actually operated that many nuclear powered surface ships, but their future will be full of them.

    So are you going to put ships into the slipways, therefore, preventing the construction of other ships and delay work.

    Yes.

    Those other ships are civilian ships and they can wait. They need to expand their capacity to work on large ships anyway if they are going to build big ships for the Russian navy and large civilian ships then they will need a lot of large docks... land based and floating to be able to handle them in the future... gotta start some time.

    Welcome to shipbuilding, The loss of PTD-50 was large for Russia.

    If it was such a loss, then they can build another four of them... two in Russia and give the contracts for the other two to South Korea and China... PTD-50 wasn't made in Russia and there is no reason why its replacements need to be, but it would be useful work for a Russian shipyard to build nonetheless.

    I seem to remember the PTD-50 was made in Sweden in the 1980s or something, so it is time to build a new one anyway.

    Nuclear ships carry back up diesel or gas engines if I'm not wrong.

    They do, but your main propulsion is the important thing... if your backups fail your primary engine should meet all your power needs until the smaller backup propulsion systems are sorted... it is the opposite of that that is the problem.

    People somehow imagine that if you have enough of flat land next to the shore it can be used as shipyard xD

    Of course not, but then it is not just going to happen on its own either... if they want Carriers then they need big ships, if they want to be a global economic power that can continue to say no to the US and EU and do what you like then you need some large ships in your navy... it doens't matter how many Zircons your corvettes can carry, it is about endurance and range and operating on the other side of the planet with minimum support.

    And it doesn't need to be as expensive as the US makes it appear.

    I only remembered that Kirovs has both, nuks and turbines.

    At the time they didn't have nuk power plants for surface ships with enough power so they added gas turbines to boost speed above the 18knts the nuke PP could manage.

    These days they have rather more powerful and rather more efficient NPPs that wont need to be refuelled over a 30-40 year operational life period which makes them much cheaper to operate.

    Their new breeder reactor designs means you can put spent nuclear rods around the nuclear pile of a running breeder reactor to turn it back in to reactor fuel that can be used again... in other words the spend fuel rods can be reused/recycled...

    It would be good, anyway to build a new navy shipyard near murmansk with a large enough drydock AND to get a new floating drydock (the PD-50 was build in 18months in two swedish shipyards and then welded.together (the main shipyard went bankrupt in 1989, btw)). Moving such a big drydock could be quite problematic, and PD50 was damaged on its first voyage to murmansk, so asking.the chineses or the koreans to build it and.then.transfer it could also be risky. Maybe Sevmash in severodinsk or the Rostec shipyard in murmansk could build such a floating drydock?

    Murmansk could have two made and SK and China could make one each for the Pacific fleet...

    And are basically only ships ever with such propulsion.

    It was quicker and easier than developing a new reactor with enough power.

    I seem to remember the reactor is a modified sub reactor and not originally designed for very large ships...

    That shipyard in Sweden was quite big and almost without orders, so it's possible that they got a good deal.

    I would suggest they would get a good deal from quite a few shipyards in Europe... but I really wouldn't trust them these days after the Mistral fiasco even if Russia did end up ahead they didn't get the ships they wanted.
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    Post  Hole on Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:34 pm

    Kirov class has steam turbines.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:25 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Huh, it's as if my posts end up being ignored.

    I'll say it again, Zvezda shipyard.

    I'll repeat

    Zvezda shipyard.

    So are you going to put ships into the slipways, therefore, preventing the construction of other ships and delay work.

    Large floating docks EXIST, for this reason, you cannot just stick a large ship on the ship of a harbor and work on it if the work is deep.

    That Shipyard has limited dry dock space ALL SHIPYARDS DO and they cannot afford to jam it with ships and cost time delays which cost money and more to other orders. You act like it has 20 something slots it doesn't.

    Welcome to shipbuilding, The loss of PTD-50 was large for Russia.


    People somehow imagine that if you have enough of flat land next to the shore it can be used as shipyard xD

    Are you too stupid to realize zvezda drydock handles over 100,000 tons?

    https://www.ship-technology.com/projects/zvezda-shipbuilding-complex-bolshoi-kamen/

    Are you too stupid to realize there is a thing called "limits" apparently so. Zvezda isn't operational yet and it already has orders such has large LNG Tankers that are considered vital to russian Economy, they are not going to take up the slipways for those LNG tankers for the Kuz get over it.

    Zvezda only has a few docks that could handle a ship like the Kuz you think every slipway can fit that carrier? LOL please, The more you talk the more you show me you don't know jack about what your peaching
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:02 pm

    I think you have zero idea about concept of necessity and need when of use.  Zvezda was also tasked in upgrading/working on existing nuclear subs as well.  If they have to hold back development for need of the government, then they will.

    funny too, that I said they can and even you admit that they have the ability and slipway to do it yet you call me the stupid one. You clearly are a liar.  Go walk in the syrian desert you claimed you were in Laughing  Go read GarryB's post btw.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Welcome to shipbuilding, The loss of PTD-50 was large for Russia.

    If it was such a loss, then they can build another four of them... two in Russia and give the contracts for the other two to South Korea and China... PTD-50 wasn't made in Russia and there is no reason why its replacements need to be, but it would be useful work for a Russian shipyard to build nonetheless.

    I seem to remember the PTD-50 was made in Sweden in the 1980s or something, so it is time to build a new one anyway.


    The problem is this would require 2-3 years min to have the new one + 2-3 years for Kuz to repair. What makes it questionable investment. So for Kuz this might be actually a death sentence.

    And shipyard could be only in Russia or China.



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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:13 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Welcome to shipbuilding, The loss of PTD-50 was large for Russia.

    If it was such a loss, then they can build another four of them... two in Russia and give the contracts for the other two to South Korea and China... PTD-50 wasn't made in Russia and there is no reason why its replacements need to be, but it would be useful work for a Russian shipyard to build nonetheless.

    I seem to remember the PTD-50 was made in Sweden in the 1980s or something, so it is time to build a new one anyway.


    The problem is this would require 2-3 years min to have the new one + 2-3 years for Kuz to repair.  What makes it questionable investment. So for Kuz this might be actually a death sentence.

    And shipyard could be only in Russia or China.




    If Russian government doesn't want to withhold development of some LNG tankers at Zvezda to repair Kuznetsov, then the next two other options are expanding existing docks at other sites or obtain a floating dock. If China can do it within a good time frame than what Russia can do (which they can) then they may end up buying from China. So far, things have been hush hush.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:32 pm

    Tankers to export LNG and petrol are a higher priority than kuznetsov for Russia.

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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:34 pm

    Isos wrote:Tankers to export LNG and petrol are a higher priority than kuznetsov for Russia.


    They are indeed. It is just saying though that if the need is there, then they can. Currently, LNG export is actually gaining more traction than even some of their pipeline projects so yes, there is high priority for that.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:12 pm

    in short we need to live to see lol1 lol1 lol1
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    Post  Isos on Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:29 pm

    Thanks to new US sanctions on Iran petrol and gas will increase.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/04/23/opinions/big-winner-from-trumps-iran-oil-boycott-russia-andelman/index.html

    In hard dollar terms, the impact is even more apparent. With Russia producing some 11 million barrels of oil a day, each dollar increase in the price per barrel of crude oil adds at least $4 billion to the Russian economy each year

    1 billion $ for upgarding a shipyard to be able to build a carrier. And 3 other for the carrier building.

    Sell the Kuznetsov to India for 300 million $ and invest in su-57k.

    All thanks to Trump. Very Happy

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