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    US-Indian defense ties

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    Corrosion
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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  Corrosion on Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:25 pm

    Indian state doesn't have anything to throw away. Ok, economy is doing great, but there is also the problem of inflation etc. What the heck the govt. is going to stop subsidizing Diesel and LPG soon and I have to pay more to cook my food and travelling will get expensive as well Sad . It is the threat from China that the IAF is having almost a free run to get a what they want. There are many rich people in India who also act as they are above law but India is far from being a rich country.

    Dear f-insas, please don't peddle bull$hit.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:40 am

    Indian state doesn't have anything to throw away.

    Twisted Evil

    It wouldn't be throwing it away... I really would appreciate it... Smile

    But seriously I know they haven't got money to throw away, but paying half a trillion dollars EACH for C-17s... tell me that makes sense.

    There are many rich people in India who also act as they are above law but India is far from being a rich country.

    Seems to be a problem for every country, whether they admit it or not.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  Corrosion on Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:tell me that makes sense.

    No it doesn't, it only makes sense if it was a payback for something else like for example helping end India's isolation when it comes to buying nuclear fuel from NSG countries, most of which are US stooges (to put it bluntly)

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:08 am

    Pretty amusing considering who created that isolation in the first place (the US).

    The Russians are working on Breeder reactor designs again and pretty soon will have nuclear fuel to spare.

    For those who don't know what a fast breeder reactor is, it generate a huge amount of excess neutrons... if you store used up nuclear fuel rods around the core they become re-enriched and can be used for fuel or to make bombs depending on how long you leave them.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:Interesting move by the US.

    Wonder what US allies like the UK are thinking... the US wouldn't even allow the UK the source codes to integrate their own weapons, so if Britain wanted to use Brimstone or ALARM on their own F-35s they would have to hand over those weapons to the US and get them to integrate them.
    .

    The source code is the original language and symbology of which the computer software is written in. Then the software is put through a process called 'compiling'. Compiling is the process that converts or translates the original software language to a language of which the weapon system can use. The compiled software is the actual software language that is placed into the weapon system. Once compiled one can not determine what the original statements, language or, symbologies were. Now you could write the software yourself, compile it and see how close your compiled software compared to the original compiled software. Modify it, redo and redo the process and hope you eventually get it right, an extremely time consuming process.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:48 am

    Compiling occurs before the "software" can be executed, by precompiling you turn the software from the programming language used to write the software into machine code (binary or something similar low level machine code that would mean little to humans)

    Because it is already compiled it runs much faster because it doesn't need to be interpreted first.

    Of course the difference between open source and not open source is Linux and Windows... the former you can look at and see how it works and make changes to it to improve performance to better suite your needs and uses of the system.
    With Windows you just get bloatware... you don't know what programming they have used and how efficient it is.

    To integrate Brahmos with the F-35 you would need to hand over all the source code and data on it... which would pretty much be giving away the keys to the castle.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:01 pm


    The F-35's software is encrypted. And even if it isn't, trying to decompile the source from executable binary is ultimately an exercise in futility. All the fuss over the source codes issue is because it gives a tremendous insight to the current state of the art in terms of radar control, EW methods and other technologies in which the US leads the world. Basically, it is a bunch of greedy nations trying to ask for stuff they didn't pay for hoping that if they make enough noise they will get at least something if not everything for free.

    You DO NOT need the F-35 source codes to integrate additional weapons and functionality. All you need to know is the framework by which such software modules can be written. It is just like you DO NOT need Windows XP's source code to write device drivers for it or to write additional software than runs on it. All you need to know is how you must write these things to comply with the existing framework.

    When you buy a copy of Windows you are not entitled to its source codes. When you buy a BMW you are not entitled to its engine management software source codes. When you buy a GPS navigation hand held you are not entitled to its sources codes either. Buying a fighter is no different.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  Russian Patriot on Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:04 pm

    ahmedfire wrote:
    The F-35's software is encrypted. And even if it isn't, trying to decompile the source from executable binary is ultimately an exercise in futility. All the fuss over the source codes issue is because it gives a tremendous insight to the current state of the art in terms of radar control, EW methods and other technologies in which the US leads the world. Basically, it is a bunch of greedy nations trying to ask for stuff they didn't pay for hoping that if they make enough noise they will get at least something if not everything for free.

    You DO NOT need the F-35 source codes to integrate additional weapons and functionality. All you need to know is the framework by which such software modules can be written. It is just like you DO NOT need Windows XP's source code to write device drivers for it or to write additional software than runs on it. All you need to know is how you must write these things to comply with the existing framework.

    When you buy a copy of Windows you are not entitled to its source codes. When you buy a BMW you are not entitled to its engine management software source codes. When you buy a GPS navigation hand held you are not entitled to its sources codes either. Buying a fighter is no different.

    As a programing major, I find this statement awkward.. Yes, your not entitled to use the codes, but it will work less and throw fatal exceptions such as a infinite loop.. The codes are specially written to implement the actions and avoid the crashes.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:42 am

    First of all there would be tremendous penalties in terms of performance if the operating systems and software for the F-35 was encrypted... and to little advantage, as most supercomputers could manage a brute force attack to decrypt it anyway.

    Second we are not talking about off the shelf buyers of the aircraft... we are talking about allies with a special relationship who are punting up quite a bit of cash in a JOINT VENTURE to build the F-35 including manufacturing components.

    Third... machine code is hardware specific and is written for the components on the F-35 or that can be fitted to it.

    Getting your hands on the machine code only makes sense if you also have an aircraft to go with it.

    All you need to know is the framework by which such software modules can be written. It is just like you DO NOT need Windows XP's source code to write device drivers for it or to write additional software than runs on it. All you need to know is how you must write these things to comply with the existing framework.

    You don't need an open source copy of Windows to write and add software that will operate within windows, but you do need to follow the windowa standard and make it windows compatible.

    For instance if you design a brand new printer with lots of new and fantastic features... you also need to write a piece of software called a driver that is installed into part of the operating system so that the operating system knows what the new piece of hard ware can and cannot do and how it works and what data and information(commands) it needs and what it will transmit to the computer (ie empty ink, or no paper in tray... or that it has finished printing.)

    You could run the printer using a generic printer driver, but none of its special features will be available and it might not always work as expected.

    When you buy a copy of Windows you are not entitled to its source codes. When you buy a BMW you are not entitled to its engine management software source codes. When you buy a GPS navigation hand held you are not entitled to its sources codes either. Buying a fighter is no different.

    When you contribute billions of dollars to the development of and make guarantees to buy xxx number of the final product of any of the above then it intitles you to administrator access... ie you can install your own software.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  Sujoy on Mon May 21, 2012 8:57 am

    The reason why the US wants to sell these aircrafts to India is because with the ever growing cost and production delays there is every possibility that partner nations will cut back on the number of aircrafts that they had initially planned to buy.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 22, 2012 10:20 am

    And it becomes a surprise to everyone.

    It is standard procedure before a design is ready to inflate the number of aircraft that will be bought. The more that will be bought divides the costs and increases profit levels and makes everything look peachy.

    When the F-22 was originally talked about they were talking about 1,000 aircraft.

    Then it became 700, then 300, then 200 and finally 189.

    The thing is that after everyone has committed to the program it is OK to be more realistic, but that inflates the prices.

    As more and more countries cut their numbers for the F-35 because it is too expensive... the price of the F-35s they do get will increase and increase and pretty soon some countries will have to cancel rather than cut.

    The question is... will they find new buyers to save them, or will the US military increase their orders?

    When they are buying over 1,500 aircraft it can actually make sense for them to increase their order to save money.

    If 1,500 aircraft produced alone will cost $300 million per aircraft, but if they were producing 2,000 the cost per aircraft drops to $200 million per aircraft by actually ordering more they can save money because 1,500 at 300 million each would cost 450 billion, while 2,000 at $200 million each would "only" cost 400 billion... get 500 extra aircraft and spend 50 billion less.

    The problem is tipping points... what production numbers would shift the price enough to make the extra purchases worth it.

    From memory the original claims were based on about 3,000 aircraft sold which is fairly unlikely now.

    Personally I think the Russians should say that the PAK FA program is on track and that the LMFS program should start early so that they can get to initial flight tests by 2020. If they leave it too long then... well actually if they get in fast enough they could deal a body blow to the F-35 program and force a from scratch redesign which might kill the program and force the west to spend an enormous amount of money to simply achieve parity.

    Most of what the west does seems to be aimed at making Russia waste money on empty counters to western programs.

    The European ABM system is a good example of this... there is no threat from Iran... it is all a provocation directed at Russia... a way for new europe to get US forces based on their territory and to be able to give Russia the fingers. The irony is that the Russian response will simply be very powerful weapons directed at them, so it will actually make them rather less safe, which is the opposite of the stated purpose.

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    India, US set to ink $1.4bn deal for 22 Apache helicopters

    Post  ricky123 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:38 am

    NEW DELHI: India is getting ready to order 22 heavy-duty Apache helicopters for around $1.4 billion, in what will be yet another big defence deal to be bagged by the US.

    The US has already made military sales worth over $8 billion to India over the last few years, despite it having lost out to France in the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to supply 126 fighters to IAF, which is in the final commercial negotiations stage.

    In the battle for the attack helicopters, Boeing's AH-64D Apache Longbow met all ASQRs (air staff qualitative requirements) during the extensive field trials conducted by the IAF, while the Russian Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant's Mi-28 Havoc failed to pass muster.

    "It's just a matter of time before the contract is inked for the Apaches after final commercial negotiations. Most of the hurdles have been cleared,'' a defence ministry official said. The US and Russia are also locked in battle to supply 15 heavy-lift helicopters to IAF, with the Boeing-manufactured Chinooks pitted against the Russian Mi-26 choppers.


    is Russia losing its biggest market ??

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:20 am

    Nah.

    The light helicopter market and heavy helicopter market are more lucrative.

    I rather doubt the Indians would have allowed the Russians to win all three competitions, so I think losing the armed helicopter program is probably the best option for Russia.

    The Mi-28N needs a little more work, but when the Mi-28M is ready I think the Indians will think they bought too soon.

    The Apache is a capable aircraft that is well proven in combat.

    It is also a high maintainence aircraft that is expensive to buy and operate.

    Once Mi-28M and Hermes come online however I think they will be a step above the Apache.


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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  ricky123 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:35 am


    when i look at the things which russia and india makes ,they tend to put a lot of things in the same basket . like if they make a helicopter they will add space to carry 3-4 soldiers with it , but why i like apache is cuz it is a pure fighting machine , and looks good too lol

    i know looks dont count but we live in a world where propoganda is the weapon of choice lol

    indians and russian are the same , if u look at any airforce base in usa u wont see even a small paper lying on the ground ,they literally have men circle the entire base to pick up trash . but if u look at indian or russian bases , u will see all kinds of things lying around , the equipment made in these 2 countries i think is made for rough use , Razz

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:55 am

    FOD is a problem on any airfield, and I rather suspect Russian and Indian personel will march the flight line at least once a day for safety.


    when i look at the things which russia and india makes ,they tend to put a lot of things in the same basket . like if they make a helicopter they will add space to carry 3-4 soldiers with it , but why i like apache is cuz it is a pure fighting machine , and looks good too lol

    If you are referring to the Hind with its small troop carrying capacity, I would suggest they are different designs with different design focuses.

    The Hind is an assault helo and is ideal for small groups like special forces or police units.

    The Mi-28N has a small avionics bay in the rear that you could squeeze two people into if you needed.

    It is an emergency only type thing... for instance if a single downed pilot is located they can be picked up immediately.

    AFAIK the Apache has a large pod that can be carried under a pylon for the same purpose, but obviously you need to know you are going on a rescue mission, whereas the space in the Mi-28N is always available.

    I rather suspect India might buy some Mi-35M2s as the new versions with night and all weather capability added and new weapons and components from the Havoc looks to be a much more capable aircraft than the previous models.

    The twin barrel nose mounted 23mm cannon is ideal for helo use and new sensors and weapon options make it a very capable machine with the potential for reloads in the main cabin.

    Looks is fashion and fashion changes.

    I used to find the Mig-15-21/Su-7-11 + -17 aircraft a bit boring, but now I like them again.

    There is such a thing as over exposure...


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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  ricky123 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:11 am

    india always used russian helicopters but in kargil none of the helicopters could work in high alltitudes ,thats the reason india had to use JETS . and that is one reason why india made its own Helicopter HAL LCH .
    MI35 are too heavy to fly at high altitudes ,but i think APache will do that job for india

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  TR1 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:14 am

    It was simply a matter of timing - when India had the tender, Mi-28N lacked (and still does!) many of the systems operational on the Apache. Give the Mi-28N some time, and I think it will exceed the Apache in basic performance characteristics, but the Apache wins on production, support, system integration etc right now.
    It is not all catchup ofc, the Ka-52 for example already is produced with DIRCM, the Apache is not.

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:30 am

    Exactly, and you also have to ask yourself why the US is buying Russian Mi-17 helos for Afghanistan.

    It is not something they would do for charity...

    The Mi-17s operate weil in difficult conditions, they are easy to maintain and have good flight performance.

    The Mi-38 recently took a world altitude record for a helo in its weight class, and its performance will be even better as it matures.

    The armour of the Mi-28N is superior to the Apache, though neither aircraft is a tank.

    Reportedly even small arms fire can penetrate the enormous side windows of the Apache, while the Mi-28N has been shown in tests to top 14.5mm HMG rounds fired from less than 20m directly into the side cockpit transparency. It didn't remain transparent, but it stopped the round.

    The problem is pretty much timing... If you were looking at an air superiority fighter in the 1980s then the F-15C would have been a very good choice. The Flanker had HMS and high off boresight AAMs, but in most areas it was an incomplete weapon system. Today if you wanted an air superiority fighter that wasn't expensive and didn't need stealth then the Su-35 would be a good choice.


    Right now the Apache has a few minor issues, but on the whole is a mature and capable and proven system and will likely serve India very well.

    By 2018 however the Mi-28M will likely be more capable and mature.

    BTW to be honest if you want to fight at higher altitudes I would actually look at a joint venture with Russia on an upgraded Su-25. The addition of cheap guided air to ground munitions and a new sensor suite perhaps related to that applied to their new Helos including DIRCMs and targeting systems using thermal and MMW radar systems would be much more useful.

    Another factor when comparing Apache with Russian Attack Helos is that the radar system on the Apache-D is MMW only, which limits the detection and tracking range. The Russian radars use cm and mm wave radar antennas, with the latter ideal for discriminating ground targets, the former with its longer wavelength is less effected by moisture in the air and can detect targets at significantly greater ranges and in a wider variety of weathers. MMW radar is effected by weather... cm wave radar is not. In a monsoon the effective range of MMW radar will be greatly reduced... as will Thermal Imaging range and optical range. CM wave will still pick out major ground features for navigation, and aerial threats and targets. The Hermes missile to be integrated to the Mi-28M will likely be carried four missiles to a pylon but its 20km range and 30kg dual purpose warhead with fire and forget terminal guidance will make it a very capable aircraft.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:30 am

    Thanks for ur replies never ever i have got such indetailed replies before anywhere on the net ,,

    i have to point out somethings though , the reason indians are looking elsewhere is cuz of the support system from russian , we all know how the aircraft carrier deal went , the cost was doubled and a lot of delays ,

    anyway good news for russia though , just heard the MMRCA deal is not done yet , the germans and russian are pointing out that the negotiations between india and france has failed and india might refloat the tender for 126 air craft .
    eurofighter will be in top place followed by the russian Mig -35 ,

    but i have to point out that these defense deals are more to do with diplomacy ,like the main reason india favoured france cuz i think of a secret deal where india could test its nuclear weapons in a facility in france , cuz of the new nuclear agreement with usa it forbids india to test any more nuclear bombs ,

    so that was one of the reason .plus the weapons which rafeal can use are already been used in mirage 2000 in IAF , so it is easy for india ,but since this deal has failed ,it will be intresting to see how and what other countries do to get this order , u also have to remember that the acutall order is for more then 200 aircraft , india does this a lot

    they order 100 for say $100 and when u agree ,it will say give me more 100 but reduce the overall price ,

    it does 2 things for india ,by floating the 2nd order the keep the other countries quite who lost the bid ,cuz they think they have a chance to get the 2nd order and dont want to spoil relations ,
    also it helps if india gives both orders to the same company to further reduce the cost ,

    i think it is brilliant ! but it consumes a lot of time .and right now IAF has a big shortage of planes ,

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:57 am

    i have to point out somethings though , the reason indians are looking elsewhere is cuz of the support system from russian , we all know how the aircraft carrier deal went , the cost was doubled and a lot of delays ,

    First of all I don't agree. The Indians have always looked elsewhere, including France and Israel and many other potential suppliers. The fact that they buy a lot from Russia/Soviets is because their products suit them best at the right price.

    The case of the carrier, well who is to blame?

    The Indians want a carrier quickly to fill a gap and the Russians made them an offer no other country in the world could match. At the original price of about 1.5 billion they were getting over 700 million dollars worth of aircraft, so the carrier upgrade was actually going to cost them 800 million... FOR A CARRIER!

    The main problem with the deal is that the Indians and Russians took almost 10 years to sign the agreement and during that time there was no funding for maintainence. By the time they cracked it open they found the wiring and plumbing was all in a terrible state and needed to be replaced. If they had given the go ahead after two years to start they probably could have upgraded the vessel within budget because materials and labour were a lot cheaper.

    The point is that the Russians didn't raise the price to increase profits, they increased the price to cover the costs.

    Even at about 2.4 billion dollars INCLUDING aircraft this is a cheap carrier.

    The 126 Rafale aircraft the Indian Air Force has accepted for service will cost 20 billion... that is about 158 million dollars each! Do you think an aircraft carrier that actually cost 2.5 billion minus the 700 million for the aircraft which means the carrier itself is only costing 1.8 billion is going to be more useful to the navy than the 11 odd Rafales the Air Force could buy with the same money would be?

    anyway good news for russia though , just heard the MMRCA deal is not done yet , the germans and russian are pointing out that the negotiations between india and france has failed and india might refloat the tender for 126 air craft .
    eurofighter will be in top place followed by the russian Mig -35 ,

    Any problems they have will largely be over price. If they decide not to go with the Rafale I think the Typhoons chances are low because it is expensive too and in the past India has had bad experiences with British products... ie Sea King Helos and sanctions etc.

    In terms of their inventory they already have Mig-29s of which about 60 will get upgrades... it makes sense to buy Mig-35s if Rafale is no longer an option, but I rather suspect the whole MMRCA program was a ruse to get them to drop their prices. India was happy with the M2K and wanted France to sell them more, but France wanted to sell them the newer and more expensive Rafales. After a lot of wasted time they have ended up where they started... and to be honest the money they are spending on Rafales would make rather more sense to have bought about 500 Mig-29M2s as a stop gap till their new stealth fighters are ready.

    Instead their caution about just having one supplier has led them to their current situation of having to buy a very expensive aircraft that will basically be a stopgap fighter.

    they order 100 for say $100 and when u agree ,it will say give me more 100 but reduce the overall price ,

    Generally that is pretty normal... most contracts include options for more aircraft that are not as expensive as the initial batch. The main reason is the first contract pays for setting up mass production, training workers and buying materials and components from subcontractors. The follow on contract all that should be set up and the extra work means a larger profit margin from the supplier.

    Problems occur when the follow on order is for an upgraded or modified design of course and brand new components can increase the costs too.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:54 am

    BTW

    Thanks for ur replies never ever i have got such indetailed replies before anywhere on the net ,,

    Getting me to talk is easy... getting me to shut up... now that is very difficult... Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

    I am currently looking for paid employment but I have worked with computers in the past and it is one of the worst industries for explanations and unnecessary jargon.

    Error 634.

    What the heck does it mean?

    They are getting better though, but they are still not great.

    BTW if Mig did manage to get a sale, that would be very good for their chances with the Russian Air Force.

    At the moment AFAIK the Russian AF is trying to decide between buying 50-60 Mig-29M2s or Mig-35s. If India ordered some Mig-35s that would be very good news for Mig and for India because it would reduce the costs even further.

    If it was up to me... and yes I freely admit to being very biased, but if it was up to me I would take the 10 billion set aside for the MMRCA program and spend a half on the Rafales... perhaps 30 aircraft, and with the rest I would buy the Mig-35. Now the Mig-35 was the only plane that matched the budget, so half the budget should result in half the number of planes... or 63 aircraft. That would give the Indian AF 60 Mig-29SMT upgraded aircraft, plus 63 Mig-35s, and however many Mirage 2000s and 30 Rafales. Unless the Rafales got cheaper I don't think I would bother to continue to buy them but 30 would be useful.

    From what I have read the alternative is to spend 20 billion and buy 126 Rafales... of course if they had just accepted the Rafales in the first place they would already be in service right now.

    Of course if it was totally up to me then I would have dropped the whole program and probably approached Mig to make a light aircraft with some stealth features but not too compromised in terms of stealth and design it so that it can carry a heavy load of weapons or an enormous amount of fuel. The result would be a useful bomb truck, with the ability to carry a light AAM armament and be a long range patrol/light interceptor aircraft.

    They have Su-30MKIs, and they will have a full sized 5th gen stealth fighter... what they need is a light cheap multi role aircraft like the Mig-21BIS could have been... though perhaps with double the payload.

    A Mig-21-98 would have been nice, but a new semi stealthy design with a modern AESA radar and IRST and the ability to carry modern potent new AAMs being developed for the PAK FA. Being able to carry 4 tons of ordinance would be useful as that could include external fuel tanks, perhaps 4 AAMs, and a couple of 500kg guided bombs, or an anti radiation/ship missile or two.

    In fact a slightly scaled up Yak-130 would be interesting... perhaps a 15 ton max weight model. (The current Yak-130 has a max weight of about 9 tons and a normal operating weight of just under 6 tons.)

    The point is that the aircraft doesn't need to be a super death machine... the Su-30MKI and PAK FA will be dealing with the enemy fighters. This aircraft will pretty much be engaging the rest like Helos and transports and bombers. It will be a numbers aircraft that can hit point ground targets. Not carrying extra fuel it should be a capable fighter, though I would try to make it a single engined aircraft just to reduce maintainence costs.


    Last edited by GarryB on Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:00 am; edited 1 time in total


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    ricky123
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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:25 pm


    ok u left the entire diplomacy part out , india already has good relations with russia and with this deal they were looking to get some countries on thier side .. typhoon is good but i dont think india likes the 4 countries which make them ... india doesnt like them accept britain , cuz the other dont support india's bid for permanent seat in the UN . although i think india should keep buying stuff from russian cuz it is tried and trusted source , but i am worried about the product ,

    the red flag event which was held in usa , india took i think 9 Su-30 MKIs , and the pilots were 50% new and 50% old ..
    but i saw a usaf officer saying bad things about the aircraft .i cant post link here
    Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008
    look that up in youtube plz ... he really pointed out a lot of bad things , which i am guessing isnot true

    ricky123
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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  ricky123 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:35 pm



    also u said the apache is vulnerable to small arms fire at the side windows , i have found out that the new features in apache it has reinforced windows and extra protection in the pilot seat ,
    also u dint not tell me about the LCH project why india is buying apache when it has its own LCH program ?

    thanks again for replying i am just learning new things from u guys

    GarryB
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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:34 am

    ok u left the entire diplomacy part out , india already has good relations with russia and with this deal they were looking to get some countries on thier side .. typhoon is good but i dont think india likes the 4 countries which make them ... india doesnt like them accept britain , cuz the other dont support india's bid for permanent seat in the UN . although i think india should keep buying stuff from russian cuz it is tried and trusted source , but i am worried about the product ,

    AFAIK the main reason the Indians picked Rafale was because they wanted to diversify their weapons and aircrafts options.

    That is totally their choice of course, but I think the extreme cost of the new aircraft type in their inventory is simply not worth it. If they want Meteor then why not propose a joint venture with Russia on a scramjet powered R-77. They are already working on a scramjet powered Brahmos II.

    Joint development means a say in its design and features and performance.

    Any other weapon they might want... I don't know of any European weapons that the Russians don't have or are not developing...

    Having one source is only a problem if that source is unreliable, but in this case I think it is cheaper to work any problems out rather than buying from someone else.

    If you have Steyr AUG rifles as standard and you are not happy with the quality you don't just go and buy some SA-80s. First of all because you might find problems with them too so you are no better off despite spending a lot more money and adding a new type to the inventory that needs spares and support.

    but i saw a usaf officer saying bad things about the aircraft .i cant post link here

    I have a book about Soviet/German combat around Murmansk in the 41-44 period, and much of it talks about all the mistakes the Soviets made and how the Americans would not have made such mistakes.

    I am sure if the training was done in India that an Indian officer could talk about shortcomings of the American aircraft too... first of all because they are not as simple to use as the Russian aircraft or French aircraft he is used to.

    From what I have read those training flights with India they didn't even turn on their radars so the US couldn't record their signatures and frequencies and pass the info on to Pakistan.

    I would not judge an Su-30MKI based on that.

    From what I saw he claims the USAFs pilots training was better, which is no surprise as they get a lot of practise in the real thing.

    He said the Su-30 is superior in a dogfight to F-15.

    He said the Mig-21 with upgrades is a very capable opponent.

    The F-22 is a super plane. (understandable from a USAF pilot)

    The Rafale didn't really come to play and mainly collected data on enemy radars... I am sure the US had dozens of ground and air platforms doing that too BTW.

    The Indians killed a lot of friendlies due to their Russian datalink not being compatible.

    ... But what he didn't mention was that the F15's killed quite a few friendlies too WITHOUT the datalink problem and with the better training...

    But it is interesting that he didn't talk about the PAK FA or even the Su-35S.

    When India gets upgrades for its Su-30MKIs it will likely be getting new systems developed for the Su-35.

    also u said the apache is vulnerable to small arms fire at the side windows , i have found out that the new features in apache it has reinforced windows and extra protection in the pilot seat ,

    Certainly it was a problem that needed fixing. I remember in the 1980s western publications took delight in talking about Hinds being shot down with mere small arms fire... a genius is someone that learns from someone elses mistake... it seems the makers of the Apache had to learn that mistake for themselves.

    The Mi-28 was built from scratch to be protected from fire up to 20mm cannon level.

    also u dint not tell me about the LCH project why india is buying apache when it has its own LCH program ?

    The Apache and Havoc are not light helicopters... the LCH program is intended to replace Hinds in high altitude roles and is a light attack helo in the 5 ton class... a bit like the Tiger, or Huey Cobra.

    AFAIK they are designing their own combat and observation helos (LCH and LOH), but that they are buying about 140 Mi-17 medium transport helos and are deciding on either the Mi-26 or a western equivalent for an order of about 12 heavy lift helos.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    TR1
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    Re: US-Indian defense ties

    Post  TR1 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:42 am

    ricky123 wrote:
    ok u left the entire diplomacy part out , india already has good relations with russia and with this deal they were looking to get some countries on thier side .. typhoon is good but i dont think india likes the 4 countries which make them ... india doesnt like them accept britain , cuz the other dont support india's bid for permanent seat in the UN . although i think india should keep buying stuff from russian cuz it is tried and trusted source , but i am worried about the product ,

    the red flag event which was held in usa , india took i think 9 Su-30 MKIs , and the pilots were 50% new and 50% old ..
    but i saw a usaf officer saying bad things about the aircraft .i cant post link here
    Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008
    look that up in youtube plz ... he really pointed out a lot of bad things , which i am guessing isnot true

    He had a LOT of factual innacuracies in his presentation, so I would not look too heavily into that presentation.

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