US-India Defense Ties

Exactly, and you also have to ask yourself why the US is buying Russian Mi-17 helos for Afghanistan.

It is not something they would do for charity...

The Mi-17s operate weil in difficult conditions, they are easy to maintain and have good flight performance.

The Mi-38 recently took a world altitude record for a helo in its weight class, and its performance will be even better as it matures.

The armour of the Mi-28N is superior to the Apache, though neither aircraft is a tank.

Reportedly even small arms fire can penetrate the enormous side windows of the Apache, while the Mi-28N has been shown in tests to top 14.5mm HMG rounds fired from less than 20m directly into the side cockpit transparency. It didn't remain transparent, but it stopped the round.

The problem is pretty much timing... If you were looking at an air superiority fighter in the 1980s then the F-15C would have been a very good choice. The Flanker had HMS and high off boresight AAMs, but in most areas it was an incomplete weapon system. Today if you wanted an air superiority fighter that wasn't expensive and didn't need stealth then the Su-35 would be a good choice.


Right now the Apache has a few minor issues, but on the whole is a mature and capable and proven system and will likely serve India very well.

By 2018 however the Mi-28M will likely be more capable and mature.

BTW to be honest if you want to fight at higher altitudes I would actually look at a joint venture with Russia on an upgraded Su-25. The addition of cheap guided air to ground munitions and a new sensor suite perhaps related to that applied to their new Helos including DIRCMs and targeting systems using thermal and MMW radar systems would be much more useful.

Another factor when comparing Apache with Russian Attack Helos is that the radar system on the Apache-D is MMW only, which limits the detection and tracking range. The Russian radars use cm and mm wave radar antennas, with the latter ideal for discriminating ground targets, the former with its longer wavelength is less effected by moisture in the air and can detect targets at significantly greater ranges and in a wider variety of weathers. MMW radar is effected by weather... cm wave radar is not. In a monsoon the effective range of MMW radar will be greatly reduced... as will Thermal Imaging range and optical range. CM wave will still pick out major ground features for navigation, and aerial threats and targets. The Hermes missile to be integrated to the Mi-28M will likely be carried four missiles to a pylon but its 20km range and 30kg dual purpose warhead with fire and forget terminal guidance will make it a very capable aircraft.

Thanks for ur replies never ever i have got such indetailed replies before anywhere on the net ,,

i have to point out somethings though , the reason indians are looking elsewhere is cuz of the support system from russian , we all know how the aircraft carrier deal went , the cost was doubled and a lot of delays ,

anyway good news for russia though , just heard the MMRCA deal is not done yet , the germans and russian are pointing out that the negotiations between india and france has failed and india might refloat the tender for 126 air craft .
eurofighter will be in top place followed by the russian Mig -35 ,

but i have to point out that these defense deals are more to do with diplomacy ,like the main reason india favoured france cuz i think of a secret deal where india could test its nuclear weapons in a facility in france , cuz of the new nuclear agreement with usa it forbids india to test any more nuclear bombs ,

so that was one of the reason .plus the weapons which rafeal can use are already been used in mirage 2000 in IAF , so it is easy for india ,but since this deal has failed ,it will be intresting to see how and what other countries do to get this order , u also have to remember that the acutall order is for more then 200 aircraft , india does this a lot

they order 100 for say $100 and when u agree ,it will say give me more 100 but reduce the overall price ,

it does 2 things for india ,by floating the 2nd order the keep the other countries quite who lost the bid ,cuz they think they have a chance to get the 2nd order and dont want to spoil relations ,
also it helps if india gives both orders to the same company to further reduce the cost ,

i think it is brilliant ! but it consumes a lot of time .and right now IAF has a big shortage of planes ,

i have to point out somethings though , the reason indians are looking elsewhere is cuz of the support system from russian , we all know how the aircraft carrier deal went , the cost was doubled and a lot of delays ,

First of all I don't agree. The Indians have always looked elsewhere, including France and Israel and many other potential suppliers. The fact that they buy a lot from Russia/Soviets is because their products suit them best at the right price.

The case of the carrier, well who is to blame?

The Indians want a carrier quickly to fill a gap and the Russians made them an offer no other country in the world could match. At the original price of about 1.5 billion they were getting over 700 million dollars worth of aircraft, so the carrier upgrade was actually going to cost them 800 million... FOR A CARRIER!

The main problem with the deal is that the Indians and Russians took almost 10 years to sign the agreement and during that time there was no funding for maintainence. By the time they cracked it open they found the wiring and plumbing was all in a terrible state and needed to be replaced. If they had given the go ahead after two years to start they probably could have upgraded the vessel within budget because materials and labour were a lot cheaper.

The point is that the Russians didn't raise the price to increase profits, they increased the price to cover the costs.

Even at about 2.4 billion dollars INCLUDING aircraft this is a cheap carrier.

The 126 Rafale aircraft the Indian Air Force has accepted for service will cost 20 billion... that is about 158 million dollars each! Do you think an aircraft carrier that actually cost 2.5 billion minus the 700 million for the aircraft which means the carrier itself is only costing 1.8 billion is going to be more useful to the navy than the 11 odd Rafales the Air Force could buy with the same money would be?

anyway good news for russia though , just heard the MMRCA deal is not done yet , the germans and russian are pointing out that the negotiations between india and france has failed and india might refloat the tender for 126 air craft .
eurofighter will be in top place followed by the russian Mig -35 ,

Any problems they have will largely be over price. If they decide not to go with the Rafale I think the Typhoons chances are low because it is expensive too and in the past India has had bad experiences with British products... ie Sea King Helos and sanctions etc.

In terms of their inventory they already have Mig-29s of which about 60 will get upgrades... it makes sense to buy Mig-35s if Rafale is no longer an option, but I rather suspect the whole MMRCA program was a ruse to get them to drop their prices. India was happy with the M2K and wanted France to sell them more, but France wanted to sell them the newer and more expensive Rafales. After a lot of wasted time they have ended up where they started... and to be honest the money they are spending on Rafales would make rather more sense to have bought about 500 Mig-29M2s as a stop gap till their new stealth fighters are ready.

Instead their caution about just having one supplier has led them to their current situation of having to buy a very expensive aircraft that will basically be a stopgap fighter.

they order 100 for say $100 and when u agree ,it will say give me more 100 but reduce the overall price ,

Generally that is pretty normal... most contracts include options for more aircraft that are not as expensive as the initial batch. The main reason is the first contract pays for setting up mass production, training workers and buying materials and components from subcontractors. The follow on contract all that should be set up and the extra work means a larger profit margin from the supplier.

Problems occur when the follow on order is for an upgraded or modified design of course and brand new components can increase the costs too.

BTW

Thanks for ur replies never ever i have got such indetailed replies before anywhere on the net ,,

Getting me to talk is easy... getting me to shut up... now that is very difficult...

I am currently looking for paid employment but I have worked with computers in the past and it is one of the worst industries for explanations and unnecessary jargon.

Error 634.

What the heck does it mean?

They are getting better though, but they are still not great.

BTW if Mig did manage to get a sale, that would be very good for their chances with the Russian Air Force.

At the moment AFAIK the Russian AF is trying to decide between buying 50-60 Mig-29M2s or Mig-35s. If India ordered some Mig-35s that would be very good news for Mig and for India because it would reduce the costs even further.

If it was up to me... and yes I freely admit to being very biased, but if it was up to me I would take the 10 billion set aside for the MMRCA program and spend a half on the Rafales... perhaps 30 aircraft, and with the rest I would buy the Mig-35. Now the Mig-35 was the only plane that matched the budget, so half the budget should result in half the number of planes... or 63 aircraft. That would give the Indian AF 60 Mig-29SMT upgraded aircraft, plus 63 Mig-35s, and however many Mirage 2000s and 30 Rafales. Unless the Rafales got cheaper I don't think I would bother to continue to buy them but 30 would be useful.

From what I have read the alternative is to spend 20 billion and buy 126 Rafales... of course if they had just accepted the Rafales in the first place they would already be in service right now.

Of course if it was totally up to me then I would have dropped the whole program and probably approached Mig to make a light aircraft with some stealth features but not too compromised in terms of stealth and design it so that it can carry a heavy load of weapons or an enormous amount of fuel. The result would be a useful bomb truck, with the ability to carry a light AAM armament and be a long range patrol/light interceptor aircraft.

They have Su-30MKIs, and they will have a full sized 5th gen stealth fighter... what they need is a light cheap multi role aircraft like the Mig-21BIS could have been... though perhaps with double the payload.

A Mig-21-98 would have been nice, but a new semi stealthy design with a modern AESA radar and IRST and the ability to carry modern potent new AAMs being developed for the PAK FA. Being able to carry 4 tons of ordinance would be useful as that could include external fuel tanks, perhaps 4 AAMs, and a couple of 500kg guided bombs, or an anti radiation/ship missile or two.

In fact a slightly scaled up Yak-130 would be interesting... perhaps a 15 ton max weight model. (The current Yak-130 has a max weight of about 9 tons and a normal operating weight of just under 6 tons.)

The point is that the aircraft doesn't need to be a super death machine... the Su-30MKI and PAK FA will be dealing with the enemy fighters. This aircraft will pretty much be engaging the rest like Helos and transports and bombers. It will be a numbers aircraft that can hit point ground targets. Not carrying extra fuel it should be a capable fighter, though I would try to make it a single engined aircraft just to reduce maintainence costs.

ok u left the entire diplomacy part out , india already has good relations with russia and with this deal they were looking to get some countries on thier side .. typhoon is good but i dont think india likes the 4 countries which make them ... india doesnt like them accept britain , cuz the other dont support india's bid for permanent seat in the UN . although i think india should keep buying stuff from russian cuz it is tried and trusted source , but i am worried about the product ,

the red flag event which was held in usa , india took i think 9 Su-30 MKIs , and the pilots were 50% new and 50% old ..
but i saw a usaf officer saying bad things about the aircraft .i cant post link here
Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008
look that up in youtube plz ... he really pointed out a lot of bad things , which i am guessing isnot true

also u said the apache is vulnerable to small arms fire at the side windows , i have found out that the new features in apache it has reinforced windows and extra protection in the pilot seat ,
also u dint not tell me about the LCH project why india is buying apache when it has its own LCH program ?

thanks again for replying i am just learning new things from u guys

ok u left the entire diplomacy part out , india already has good relations with russia and with this deal they were looking to get some countries on thier side .. typhoon is good but i dont think india likes the 4 countries which make them ... india doesnt like them accept britain , cuz the other dont support india's bid for permanent seat in the UN . although i think india should keep buying stuff from russian cuz it is tried and trusted source , but i am worried about the product ,

AFAIK the main reason the Indians picked Rafale was because they wanted to diversify their weapons and aircrafts options.

That is totally their choice of course, but I think the extreme cost of the new aircraft type in their inventory is simply not worth it. If they want Meteor then why not propose a joint venture with Russia on a scramjet powered R-77. They are already working on a scramjet powered Brahmos II.

Joint development means a say in its design and features and performance.

Any other weapon they might want... I don't know of any European weapons that the Russians don't have or are not developing...

Having one source is only a problem if that source is unreliable, but in this case I think it is cheaper to work any problems out rather than buying from someone else.

If you have Steyr AUG rifles as standard and you are not happy with the quality you don't just go and buy some SA-80s. First of all because you might find problems with them too so you are no better off despite spending a lot more money and adding a new type to the inventory that needs spares and support.

but i saw a usaf officer saying bad things about the aircraft .i cant post link here

I have a book about Soviet/German combat around Murmansk in the 41-44 period, and much of it talks about all the mistakes the Soviets made and how the Americans would not have made such mistakes.

I am sure if the training was done in India that an Indian officer could talk about shortcomings of the American aircraft too... first of all because they are not as simple to use as the Russian aircraft or French aircraft he is used to.

From what I have read those training flights with India they didn't even turn on their radars so the US couldn't record their signatures and frequencies and pass the info on to Pakistan.

I would not judge an Su-30MKI based on that.

From what I saw he claims the USAFs pilots training was better, which is no surprise as they get a lot of practise in the real thing.

He said the Su-30 is superior in a dogfight to F-15.

He said the Mig-21 with upgrades is a very capable opponent.

The F-22 is a super plane. (understandable from a USAF pilot)

The Rafale didn't really come to play and mainly collected data on enemy radars... I am sure the US had dozens of ground and air platforms doing that too BTW.

The Indians killed a lot of friendlies due to their Russian datalink not being compatible.

... But what he didn't mention was that the F15's killed quite a few friendlies too WITHOUT the datalink problem and with the better training...

But it is interesting that he didn't talk about the PAK FA or even the Su-35S.

When India gets upgrades for its Su-30MKIs it will likely be getting new systems developed for the Su-35.

also u said the apache is vulnerable to small arms fire at the side windows , i have found out that the new features in apache it has reinforced windows and extra protection in the pilot seat ,

Certainly it was a problem that needed fixing. I remember in the 1980s western publications took delight in talking about Hinds being shot down with mere small arms fire... a genius is someone that learns from someone elses mistake... it seems the makers of the Apache had to learn that mistake for themselves.

The Mi-28 was built from scratch to be protected from fire up to 20mm cannon level.

also u dint not tell me about the LCH project why india is buying apache when it has its own LCH program ?

The Apache and Havoc are not light helicopters... the LCH program is intended to replace Hinds in high altitude roles and is a light attack helo in the 5 ton class... a bit like the Tiger, or Huey Cobra.

AFAIK they are designing their own combat and observation helos (LCH and LOH), but that they are buying about 140 Mi-17 medium transport helos and are deciding on either the Mi-26 or a western equivalent for an order of about 12 heavy lift helos.

ricky123 wrote:
ok u left the entire diplomacy part out , india already has good relations with russia and with this deal they were looking to get some countries on thier side .. typhoon is good but i dont think india likes the 4 countries which make them ... india doesnt like them accept britain , cuz the other dont support india's bid for permanent seat in the UN . although i think india should keep buying stuff from russian cuz it is tried and trusted source , but i am worried about the product ,

the red flag event which was held in usa , india took i think 9 Su-30 MKIs , and the pilots were 50% new and 50% old ..
but i saw a usaf officer saying bad things about the aircraft .i cant post link here
Indo-US Red Flag Air Force Exercise Lecture 2008
look that up in youtube plz ... he really pointed out a lot of bad things , which i am guessing isnot true

He had a LOT of factual innacuracies in his presentation, so I would not look too heavily into that presentation.

but i saw a usaf officer saying bad things about the aircraft .i cant post link here

I watched it again, and I still don't see where he said there was anything wrong with the Su-30.

He said they had serious problems identifying targets... but that is because they were not using their radars, they were relying on AWACS aircraft.

Remember an AWACS aircraft is not just a radar in the air... it is both airborne Warning and CONTROL.

This means that the guys in the AWACS should be detecting targets and directing friendly fighters to those targets.

In other words they were operating in a situation where the AWACS they were operating with was no compatible with their datalink system.

If a group of USAF aircraft went to a similar exercise in India they would find that they could not communicate with the AWACS there either and would be in the same position as the Indian pilots in having to verbally communicate with the AWACS and the extra time that takes would mean they would lose aircraft and then have to make the choice of kill or be killed. The Indians chose to kill, and I rather suspect the US pilots in the same situation would take the same decision.

They didn't say the Russian datalink equipment was bad, they said it was not compatible with the NATO standard Link 16 system.

His description of AESA radar was a bit simplistic too. The PESA fitted to the Indian aircraft is a very good radar.

ok i dont know how u missed this

1: he said about the engines not working properly in fog ,which takes atleast 1 min to launch 6 to 7 planes. he said russian engines are not reliable as american engines
2: he said about the vector thrust when u use that in su30mki and try to go right the plane starts to fall cuz of drag and cant climb ..
3: he said su30 can do 22 degree turn but the raptor will do 28 degree turn and will take out the su30 cuz su30 is a big plane with big radar cross section ..

also he mentioned indians wanted to be a part of the coalition ,, this i know for sure ,india will never be a part of any millitary alliance with usa .

the guy who is speaking is terrance fornof he is experienced F15 strike eagle pilot .he was also the director of R & T and also a member of the nevada national guard .

so how serious should we take his comments ???

the reason i am worried is cuz su30 mki is the backbone of the IAF now and for many yrs to come , pakfa and su35 will take yrs to come to india

we have to deal with the F15 and J17 fighters from pakistan and china ..
and when the PakFa comes we dont know how it will do against the J20 ,

The video I saw was about 9 minutes long, is there a longer version?

1: he said about the engines not working properly in fog ,which takes atleast 1 min to launch 6 to 7 planes. he said russian engines are not reliable as american engines

What?

That is BS... those engines work during a tail slide manouver where the air around the aircraft is flowing BACKWARDS, and you believe him when he says their engines are not reliable?

2: he said about the vector thrust when u use that in su30mki and try to go right the plane starts to fall cuz of drag and cant climb ..

Is this guy retarded?

A dogfight is a gun fight with weapons fixed forward... the fastest aircraft to turn their weapons on their enemies aircraft and fire is most likely to live. Thrust vectoring allows you to point your nose and get the first shot without any fear of a stall. The F-22 has thrust vectoring too, while the F-15 pilot is pulling back on the stick but keeping his eye on his altitude and air speed so he doesn't stall and lose control and not be able to control where his nose/weapons/sensors are pointing. That is why they used to say speed is life, because in a fighter if you stall you are a sitting duck till you recover energy and speed to manouver again. For aircraft with thrust vectoring that is not an issue because you can always control your nose even in a super stall.

3: he said su30 can do 22 degree turn but the raptor will do 28 degree turn and will take out the su30 cuz su30 is a big plane with big radar cross section ..

Su-30 has a helmet mounted sight and high off boresight missiles and will be able to fire first... RCS does not effect the performance of IR guided missiles... and when that F-22 puts on its after burners for the dogfight it will be an even easier target...

Also... a 22 degree per second turn rate is for conventional flight aircraft without thrust vectoring... with thrust vectoring the turn rate is irrelevant because the pilot can simply pull back on the stick and turn the nose faster.

If you are flying an F-15 without TVC engines and you have a limit of 25 degrees per second turn rate, that means that if you try to pull a 26 degrees per second turn the plane will lose control and stall and you will not be turning at 25 degrees per second anymore... you will be falling.

In a plane with thrust vector control engines the aircraft wont stall if you pull the nose round further... the aircraft wont be turning at 35 degrees per second or more... you will still be changing direction at 25 degrees per second... it is just that your nose will not be pointing where you are flying. You wont be in a stall, you will have control of the nose of the aircraft and you can line up that plane that is out turning you by a few degrees per second but as he is still in your field of view it doesn't matter because you don't need to point your nose directly at the enemy plane to target and shoot them down... that is why in tests the Mig-29 beat the F-16 every time in 1991 during tests even though it outmanouvered the Mig 62% of the time... it didn't matter cause it was already dead.

It is not really a surprise... the whole point of the F-22 is to hit from high altitude and long range... it is a sniper. If it gets into a knife fight even if it shoots down the enemy aircraft there is a good chance that enemy aircraft could have already seen them and launched a missile... and if that missile hits that means you are trading aircraft one for one... if that enemy aircraft is a Mig-21-98 with a big jamming pod and RVV-MD missiles or even 9M100 Morfei missiles then the F-22 is in real trouble because there are thousands of mig-21s and the Mig-21-98 is not an expensive upgrade...

also he mentioned indians wanted to be a part of the coalition ,, this i know for sure ,india will never be a part of any millitary alliance with usa .

I rather suspect they will not be joining US forces on their invasion of Iran or North Korea, I rather suspect they were more interested in testing themselves to work out what needs work and where they are doing well.

Plus it is a chance to show off their new planes.

the guy who is speaking is terrance fornof he is experienced F15 strike eagle pilot .he was also the director of R & T and also a member of the nevada national guard .

so how serious should we take his comments ???

Well consider him an expert in US equipment and an outside observer of Indian aircraft/pilots.

My brother was in the Army for 20 odd years but he didn't know the L7 LMGs his unit used were Belgian FN Minimis.

Doesn't make him stupid... for his role in the military all he needed to know was they were L7s... they were just a tool and that was the name of that tool within our military.

Just because this guy is a pilot it does not mean he is an expert on Russian fighter aircraft.

the reason i am worried is cuz su30 mki is the backbone of the IAF now and for many yrs to come , pakfa and su35 will take yrs to come to india

Are you expecting combat with the US any time soon?

The Su-30MKI is plenty good enough for any role India might need it for, and also remember that they are getting upgrades too. It is only a matter of time before they get AESA radars and improved engines that will work in the rain.

...my god... they dont' work in fog!!! I guess India has perfect conditions with no dust or hot and high requirements so they don't need reliable engines... note I am being sarcastic BTW.

I remember the British briefings to pilots in the Pacific theatre was that japanese planes are made of rice paper so they can't fly them in the rain...

I seem to remember these planes that can't fly in fog kicked American ass the previous exercise... how green were they?

we have to deal with the F15 and J17 fighters from pakistan and china ..

How many F-15s have Pakistan got?

Relations with Pakistan and the US have soured recently, so if they haven't got them now... I rather doubt they will get them.

Even still based on the results of the exercise the Su-30MKI beats the F-15, and the improved models should do even better... assuming Indian air defence networks are compatible with Russian datalinks...

and when the PakFa comes we dont know how it will do against the J20 ,

Hope you never have to find out.

check that video at 1:11 mins he starts talking about the engines



from 5:36 min he says how F15 dominated . and at 7 min he talks about the thrust vectoring ,

and also india is not going to war with usa ..but we have 2 hostile countries china and pak

Pakistan has around 50-60 F16 and i think around 26 f16 were recently upgraded . so yes india see that as a threat but we r counting on the Su-30 cuz there could be a war with pakistan very soon .

i really hope u guys dont mind me asking all these questions

sry about that

check that video at 1:11 mins he starts talking about the engines

Hahahahahaha.... Sorry... he didn't say FOG, he said FOD... Foreign Object Damage.

In other words stones and rocks and rubbish getting sucked into the air intake during takeoff and landing that damages the engines.

The Su-27 series has a set of grids that fold down to prevent FOD during takeoff and landing.

Keep your runways clear and it is not a problem.

The problem with the engines is easily solved... buy the technology from Russia and licence produce them in India.

Who was talking before about the US keeping their airstrips clean and the Russians and Indians having dirty runways?

Using the grids the Russian planes take off from rough airstrips... pretty sure the F-15s don't do that.

from 5:36 min he says how F15 dominated . and at 7 min he talks about the thrust vectoring ,

Remember the lack of datalink?

Also he talks about the Su-30s turning and dropping... what he doesn't talk about is that that pilot could just pull really hard of the stick with 120 degrees of angle of attack and turn to face the following threat and fire an R-73 Archer right back into the trailing aircrafts face... the R-73 has thrust vectoring propulsion and can be fired while the aircraft is in effect flying backwards... no American plane can do that.

Pakistan has around 50-60 F16 and i think around 26 f16 were recently upgraded . so yes india see that as a threat but we r counting on the Su-30 cuz there could be a war with pakistan very soon .

I rather doubt that the Pakistan AF has pilots as well trained as the US, and most of the time the Su-30 will fire medium and long range BVR missiles, so the F-15s and F-16s have to survive them first before they can think about dogfights with Flankers.

I would also suggest actually getting on the tail of an Su-30 would be a trick in itself.

i really hope u guys dont mind me asking all these questions

No problem...

Hahahahahaha.... Sorry... he didn't say FOG, he said FOD... Foreign Object Damage.

In other words stones and rocks and rubbish getting sucked into the air intake during takeoff and landing that damages the engines.

The Su-27 series has a set of grids that fold down to prevent FOD during takeoff and landing.

Keep your runways clear and it is not a problem.

The problem with the engines is easily solved... buy the technology from Russia and licence produce them in India.

Who was talking before about the US keeping their airstrips clean and the Russians and Indians having dirty runways?

Using the grids the Russian planes take off from rough airstrips... pretty sure the F-15s don't do that.

thanks i learned something new LOL FOG and FOD hahahahaa i am such a nub

i have to conclude that sucker who gave that speach knows nothing about Su30 ..


Thanks for ur replies

I wouldn't say he knows nothing about the Su-30 but his judgement is pretty clouded.

He is hardly going to say all the US aircraft are crap... what he actually was saying was that the Su-30 was very good, and when the India pilots learn to use them properly they will be more capable than F-15/F-16 type western aircraft... but of course he can then say they have the F-22 so they are safe.

The problem for him is that of course Indian pilots will get better and better, and when they are getting into 5th gen stealth fighters of their own his mates at NATO are in real trouble... but only if they want to pick a fight with Russia or China.

His comments about planes taking off every minute is interesting too... suggests that the western aircraft they were playing with have short legs.

He was talking about getting everyone into the air quickly so they could go and play... they sent the Flankers up first because they have enormous endurance... I rather suspect they were flying their own planes light... in other words without full fuel so they were lighter and more manouverable. The problem there is that if they took to long to all get airborne the first up will be too low on fuel to do the exercise properly.

Their solution was clearly to send the Indians up first, and then get their own aircraft into the air quickly and then go an exercise.

Note I am not sure about Indian air fields but Russian airfields tend to be enormous and it is normal for aircraft to take off two or three at a time (side by side) to get planes up quickly for emergencies.

US promises to supply high-end military tech, demolish all barriers

The US now wants to do a Russia on India. Eager to displace Russia as India’s largest defence supplier, the US is promising to treat India on par with its closest allies like the UK and Australia in terms of providing cutting-edge military technology.

Ahead of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s trip to Washington and New York next week, visiting US deputy secretary of defence Ashton B Carter held a series of meetings with national security advisor (NSA) Shiv Shankar Menon, foreign secretary Sujatha Singh and defence secretary R K Mathur to push for several co-production and co-development military projects as a cornerstone to the bilateral strategic partnership.

From offering joint manufacturing facilities for the next-generation of Javelin anti-tank guided missiles to C-130J “Super Hercules” aircraft, Carter said the US was looking to partner with India across “the entire spectrum” of defence capabilities with “no boundaries” being set.

“This is the new way for India and US. We do not have the history that Russia does. We are trying to replicate it,” he said, referring to Indo-Russian joint ventures like the one manufacturing BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles.

The hard-sell comes in the backdrop of India poised to spend well over $100 billion on acquiring arms over the next decade. Having already inked Indian defence contracts worth over $8 billion in recent years, the US is now also set to bag another four deals worth almost $5 billion in the current fiscal.

But none of the four deals for six more C-130J aircraft, 22 Apache attack helicopters, 15 Chinook heavy-lift helicopters and 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers will actually be inked when the PM meets President Barack Obama on September 27.

The Indian defence establishment is yet to fully shed its lingering suspicions about the US being a reliable long-term, high-end defence supplier, given its propensity to impose sanctions and stringent export control laws.

But Carter said all such “misconceptions” were history now. The US is “working around” foundational military pacts like CISMOA (communication interoperability and security memorandum agreement), which India is reluctant to ink, and demolishing all bureaucratic hurdles through the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative. While Carter heads it for the US, Menon is his interlocutor from India. “People have to be creative on both sides to do what has not been done before,” he said.

C-130J?

India would be rather better off buying An-70s from the Ukraine... a much better aircraft.

India can buy all it wants from the US... but lets hope they never need to use any of that stuff because getting US congress approval takes time they might not have.

GarryB wrote:C-130J?

India would be rather better off buying An-70s from the Ukraine... a much better aircraft.

India can buy all it wants from the US... but lets hope they never need to use any of that stuff because getting US congress approval takes time they might not have.

these issues were raised and Ashton B Carter said india will get all clearence before any deals are made .. that means no strings attached

but i really doubt that ,, i am vary of thier intentions  

but i want to see how russian responds ....

russia will be handing over the AC to india soon ... india is going to sign the t90 tanks deal also with russia .which has been cleared ...
Russia has raised the price i think for the Pak-fa project .so dont know when that would be signed ....all in all this yr has been good for russia's image in india

1: russia delivered all the 3 warships
2:kundakulam plant is operational now
3:Vikramaditya will be handed over soon ...
4:upgraded mig-29 were handed over to india this Yr too

So this was really a good yr  

these issues were raised and Ashton B Carter said india will get all clearence before any deals are made .. that means no strings attached

And how can a deputy director of defence make such promises?

A republican congress would love to embarrass the democrat president by screwing india on this... they would do it for fun.

Wonder what the result of MRCA would had been, if the US/LM pitted F-35 instead of F-16 Bk. 60? From what I know, IAF was (right from the start) hell bent on procuring Rafales as their MCA bird.


Anyway, just like HAL and Sukhoi are partnering to develop an all weather heavy class 5th gen fighter, similarly HAL should also form a partnership with Mig to jointly develop and produce a 5th gen MCA.


Su-30MKI has been a very successful programme for both Russians as well as Indians. Time to extend our partnership to the next level. The Yanks can continue to fume, Thank You

maybe BRICS should have their own F-35- the russkies work on their own LMFS and then FGFA-ize with china, india, brazil,...

collegeboy16 wrote:maybe BRICS should have their own F-35- the russkies work on their own LMFS and then FGFA-ize with china, india, brazil,...

China is already running two 5th gen fighter programmes. So it won't join most probably. Yes, Brazil looks like a good option if it wants to join in this programme.

But, I think Russia should now start to focus seriously on the LMF programme, since PAK-FA project is now very close to completion.

China is already running two 5th gen fighter programmes. So it won't join most probably. Yes, Brazil looks like a good option if it wants to join in this programme.

One of the two Chinese stealth aircraft looks to me like the Mig MFI, and I suspect these aircraft will end up being -5th gen rather than 5th gen... with engine technology letting them down.

I seem to remember at one stage some one claimed the US offered the F-35, but on cost alone it was ruled out, plus as there was no stealth requirement the F-35 loses its main useful feature.

Ever since USA has offered India the sale of F-35s, a lot of American stooges back home want India to forlorn the Russian JV for the 5th gen FGFA!

Hope better sense prevails, and the next government realises that we CAN NOT trust the Amnericans under any condition. And Russia is our ONLY trust-worthy friend all across the globe. Amen!