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    Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

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    George1

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:48 pm

    Russia will overcome dependence on Ukrainian gas turbine engines by mid-2018

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4365362


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    George1

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  George1 on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:42 pm

    OEC has started testing of marine engines M90FR

    As reported in the press release of United Engine-Building Corporation (part of Rostekh State Corporation), the company began testing the M90FR marine gas turbine engines, the production of which is being developed as part of the import substitution program to meet the needs of the Russian Navy.

    At present, the JDC is working to establish a domestic marine gas turbine construction base at Rybinsk PJSC "ODK-Saturn". In April 2017, in the presence of Russian President Vladimir Putin, an assembly and testing complex of ship gas turbine units (SIC KGTA) was commissioned for trial operation, designed for carrying out complex tests of offshore GTE, gas turbine and diesel-gas turbine units in various configurations. The head of state launched the tests of the GTA M35R-1 with the M70FRU-2 engine on a test bed with a capacity of up to 15 MW.



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2692802.html


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    Cyberspec

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    United Engine-building Corporation(ODK) has announced that testing of NPO Saturn's M90FR & M70FRU gas turbine engines for

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:30 pm

    United Engine-building Corporation(ODK) has announced that testing of NPO Saturn's M90FR & M70FRU gas turbine engines for


    - Pr.22350 (Adm Gorshkov class) and Pr.11356 (Adm Grigorivitch class) frigates
    - & gas turbine Agregat DKVP for Pr.12322 Zubr LCAC


    is complete & series production is to start in 2018.



    https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/948617617329270784
    http://flotprom.ru/2017/%C8%EC%EF%EE%F0%F2%EE%E7%E0%EC%E5%F9%E5%ED%E8%E530/
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    Luq man

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Luq man on Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:07 pm

    Interesting comparison between Ukrainian and Russian Gas turbine engines:
    http://mil.today/2017/Science8/
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    kvs

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:08 pm

    Luq man wrote:Interesting comparison between Ukrainian and Russian Gas turbine engines:
    http://mil.today/2017/Science8/

    I smell BS. Look at the outflow temperature in the chart between the Ukr engines and the NPO Saturn
    engines: 440 vs 506 C and 430 vs 523 C. All heat engines have efficiency defined by the difference
    between the internal temperature and the reservoir temperature. It is clear that the NPO Saturn engines
    are operating at much higher temperatures (506/440 or 15% and 523/430 or 22%).

    The article brings up this issue but only to fob off the Russian achievement. There is no reference provided
    for the efficiency numbers listed in the chart. Based on the outflow temperature difference I do not find them
    credible whatsoever. It is obvious that the NPO Saturn engines are exactly using higher internal temperatures
    to gain efficiency. So the efficiency cannot be nearly identical to the Ukr products.

    And Russia has the material science knowhow to accommodate higher turbine temperatures using custom
    alloys and even composite materials for turbine blades. The PAK-FA production engine will have a lot of
    such innovations. Banderastan is just cranking production of Soviet era engines.
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    kvs

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:14 pm

    PS. Putin is nothing like the clown Khruschev and his shoe stomping of the podium at the UN. If he boasts some numbers about
    the NPO Saturn products, then they are not chest thumping BS. They are meant to remind Russia's "partners" that Russia is not
    some mud hut banana republic that lacks the know how and capacity to manufacture new engine designs.

    The outflow temperature I discuss in my previous post is not a direct measure of the internal turbine temperature since
    there are other variables such as the cooling rate of the exhaust and engine geometry that affect it. But regardless of this,
    it is quite certain that the NPO Saturn engines are operating at substantially higher internal temperatures than the
    obsolete Ukr engines.
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    Luq man

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Luq man on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:10 pm

    kvs wrote: It is obvious that the NPO Saturn engines are exactly using higher internal temperatures
    to gain efficiency.    So the efficiency cannot be nearly identical to the Ukr products.

    I'm no Engineer but I think efficiency is not only devined by inlet temperature. As you can see in that chart the russian gas turbine has a higher RPM than the Ukrainian one. This might play a role in it. But tbh I don't see any issue with this observation done by them. Development never stops and Russia will keep developing these gas turbines further as they are just starting their game in this field. Numbers will keep improving.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:30 pm

    Hm abit later then originally planned but not by much also.

    Good for them they should be producing their own stuff like this was a mistake to allow ukraine to do it in the first place.

    You have to be self sufficient if you want to be a great military power
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:32 pm

    Luq man wrote:Interesting comparison between Ukrainian and Russian Gas turbine engines:
    http://mil.today/2017/Science8/

    See the problem is with things like this, how did Mil today get such information?.

    They do not have access to the engines or the factory and I very much doubt someone high up on the food chain told them.

    When it comes to civilian sites staring "comparisons" I tend to ignore them since they do not have access to the information they would need too state such claims.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:30 pm

    Good for them they should be producing their own stuff like this was a mistake to allow ukraine to do it in the first place.

    No it was not a mistake to allow the Ukraine to make some money building things for the Russian military... Russia had things made during a period when they had no money to develop the capacity to build such things for themselves... if they didn't buy from the Ukraine they would have bought from Germany or China or somewhere similar.


    The purpose of buying from the Ukraine was to keep the Ukrainians working and stable and friendly... the latter didn't work but it could be argued that the slide into anarchy we see today was delayed and would have been accelerated if it was Russia cutting ties in the 1990s rather than the Ukraine cutting ties in the last 5 years.

    Russia had to try to keep the Ukraine friendly by offering them work, but also didn't really have the resources to spend on everything at once and replace all imported material at once. By buying from the Ukraine they have been able to spread out the cost of having to develop foreign technologies with domestic solutions... I am sure Saturn is in a better position now to develop naval propulsion systems than it was in the 1990s, and those production facilities now will be light years ahead of anything they could have produced back then too.


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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:04 am

    kvs wrote:
    Luq man wrote:Interesting comparison between Ukrainian and Russian Gas turbine engines:
    http://mil.today/2017/Science8/

    I smell BS.   Look at the outflow temperature in the chart between the Ukr engines and the NPO Saturn
    engines: 440 vs 506 C and 430 vs 523 C.    All heat engines have efficiency defined by the difference
    between the internal temperature and the reservoir temperature.   It is clear that the NPO Saturn engines
    are operating at much higher temperatures (506/440 or 15% and 523/430 or 22%).  

    The article brings up this issue but only to fob off the Russian achievement.   There is no reference provided
    for the efficiency numbers listed in the chart.   Based on the outflow temperature difference I do not find them
    credible whatsoever.    It is obvious that the NPO Saturn engines are exactly using higher internal temperatures
    to gain efficiency.    So the efficiency cannot be nearly identical to the Ukr products.

    And Russia has the material science knowhow to accommodate higher turbine temperatures using custom
    alloys and even composite materials for turbine blades.    The PAK-FA production engine will have a lot of
    such innovations.    Banderastan is just cranking production of Soviet era engines.

    Carnot efficiency is best written as n = 1 - T(cold)/T(hot) where T(hot) is temperature at which heat is added (ie flame ignition temperature) and T(cold) is reject temperature (ie temp of exhaust gas at engine discharge).

    Overall efficiency is maximised by making T(hot) as high as possible, and using the reject heat to preheat the combustion air and fuel gas (via external heat exchangers). It seems that the new Russian turbines are able to operate at higher internal temperatures, reflecting their more modern design and superior heat resistant materials. russia
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    George1

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:34 pm

    Industrial and marine gas-turbine engines of PJSC "ODK-Saturn"



    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3049996.html


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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:26 pm

    Looks like Saturn are developing a power turbine  E70/8RD from the M70FRU-2, to be used for offshore/marine electrical generation.  This would be a logical development and pave the way for marine electrical propulsion.



    BTW there is a very nice English-language pdf from Saturn that covers their range of aviation, power & marine turbines:

    http://www.npo-saturn.ru/upload/editifr/2015/49_1_NPO_Saturn_-_expertise,_products,_services.pdf

    Pg 38 has the details for the E70/8RD.
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    George1

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  George1 on Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:11 pm

    On the progress of work on the creation of ship turbines at the PJSC "ODK-Saturn"

    As reported in the press release of Joint-stock company "United Engine Building Corporation", the work on the formation of the scientific and technical reserve needed to create the fifth generation of gas turbine engines (GTE) is being carried out by the Rybinsk PJSC "ODK-Saturn" (part of the United Engine Corporation of Rostec State Corporation ).

    "Together with industry institutes, including the CIAM named after Baranov and the Krylov State Scientific Center, a number of research and development works have been carried out to shape the appearance of fifth generation marine gas turbine engines," says the Deputy General Director and Managing Director of PJSC "ODK- Saturn »Victor Polyakov. - Based on the results of these works, we performed preliminary design in the framework of research, developed the terms of reference and the corresponding proposals for the federal target program. "

    The joint engine-building corporation on the basis of the DCC-Saturn is implementing a program to develop and develop the serial production of offshore GTE and gas turbine units (GTA).

    In 2017, DCO-Saturn successfully completed the experimental design work (ROC) for the development and production of shipboard GTE: R& D "M70FRU-R" ("reverse"), OKR "Aggregate DKVP" and R&D "M90FR". The UDK-Saturn is ready for serial production of marine power units.

    "Creating these marine gas turbine engines, we went along the path of unification, and also laid the possibility of developing the next generation of engines based on them," said Yury Shmotin, Deputy General Director and General Designer of JSC "UDK". - Advantage of the Russian offshore GTE in comparison with the Ukrainian, manufactured by the technologies of the 60-80-ies, is the increased reliability of the product, due to the provision of stringent requirements for the manufacture of the most critical parts. Particularly noteworthy is the low level of specific fuel consumption and increased overhaul life. At the same time, gas turbine engines of marine purpose ODC are universal and can be used on ships of different types. The existing line of engines is enough to cover the need for GTA for modern ship projects. "

    Earlier, a unique assembly and testing complex of ship gas turbine units (SIC KGTA) with unique test benches with a capacity of up to 15-40 MW was created and put into operation at the JDC-Saturn. The SIC is a cluster that not only provides for the current requirements of the Russian Federation in the part of marine power units at the stage of import substitution, but will also allow testing of perspective GTEs and units. In this case, it is possible to carry out tests both of the entire power plant of the ship as a whole, and of its component parts. The complex is universal, and, with the necessary improvements, it makes it possible to carry out tests of gas turbine engines of industrial design with a unit capacity of up to 40 MW.

    Within the framework of the implementation of the "marine" program, the UDK-Saturn facilities were equipped with the most modern technological equipment. This made it possible to introduce a series of new technological processes into production. In addition, the experience of using electronic geometric models of structural details of an engine with a complex spatial shape made it possible to significantly shorten the terms of technological preparation of production.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3107204.html


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    franco

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  franco on Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:49 pm

    More information in regards the challenges with producing new engines.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3178312.html
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:52 pm

    So what I read from that is the low output of engines from "Star" plant and that their facility is rather inadequate for testing purposes. They hired a very large workforce due to the growing number of orders but that they still face issues with output. But that there is now other facilities in Russia that not only repair current engines, but that can make them too. But they are awaiting for documentations to be transferred(?). And then the company "Star" was being investigated so it may speed up process of transferring docs.

    So all in all, major complaints were: Monopoly and inadequacy of facilities of said Monopoly.

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