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    Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

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    George1

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:48 pm

    Russia will overcome dependence on Ukrainian gas turbine engines by mid-2018

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4365362


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    George1

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  George1 on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:42 pm

    OEC has started testing of marine engines M90FR

    As reported in the press release of United Engine-Building Corporation (part of Rostekh State Corporation), the company began testing the M90FR marine gas turbine engines, the production of which is being developed as part of the import substitution program to meet the needs of the Russian Navy.

    At present, the JDC is working to establish a domestic marine gas turbine construction base at Rybinsk PJSC "ODK-Saturn". In April 2017, in the presence of Russian President Vladimir Putin, an assembly and testing complex of ship gas turbine units (SIC KGTA) was commissioned for trial operation, designed for carrying out complex tests of offshore GTE, gas turbine and diesel-gas turbine units in various configurations. The head of state launched the tests of the GTA M35R-1 with the M70FRU-2 engine on a test bed with a capacity of up to 15 MW.



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2692802.html


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    Cyberspec

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    United Engine-building Corporation(ODK) has announced that testing of NPO Saturn's M90FR & M70FRU gas turbine engines for

    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:30 pm

    United Engine-building Corporation(ODK) has announced that testing of NPO Saturn's M90FR & M70FRU gas turbine engines for


    - Pr.22350 (Adm Gorshkov class) and Pr.11356 (Adm Grigorivitch class) frigates
    - & gas turbine Agregat DKVP for Pr.12322 Zubr LCAC


    is complete & series production is to start in 2018.



    https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/948617617329270784
    http://flotprom.ru/2017/%C8%EC%EF%EE%F0%F2%EE%E7%E0%EC%E5%F9%E5%ED%E8%E530/
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    Luq man

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Luq man on Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:07 pm

    Interesting comparison between Ukrainian and Russian Gas turbine engines:
    http://mil.today/2017/Science8/
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    kvs

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:08 pm

    Luq man wrote:Interesting comparison between Ukrainian and Russian Gas turbine engines:
    http://mil.today/2017/Science8/

    I smell BS. Look at the outflow temperature in the chart between the Ukr engines and the NPO Saturn
    engines: 440 vs 506 C and 430 vs 523 C. All heat engines have efficiency defined by the difference
    between the internal temperature and the reservoir temperature. It is clear that the NPO Saturn engines
    are operating at much higher temperatures (506/440 or 15% and 523/430 or 22%).

    The article brings up this issue but only to fob off the Russian achievement. There is no reference provided
    for the efficiency numbers listed in the chart. Based on the outflow temperature difference I do not find them
    credible whatsoever. It is obvious that the NPO Saturn engines are exactly using higher internal temperatures
    to gain efficiency. So the efficiency cannot be nearly identical to the Ukr products.

    And Russia has the material science knowhow to accommodate higher turbine temperatures using custom
    alloys and even composite materials for turbine blades. The PAK-FA production engine will have a lot of
    such innovations. Banderastan is just cranking production of Soviet era engines.
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    kvs

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  kvs on Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:14 pm

    PS. Putin is nothing like the clown Khruschev and his shoe stomping of the podium at the UN. If he boasts some numbers about
    the NPO Saturn products, then they are not chest thumping BS. They are meant to remind Russia's "partners" that Russia is not
    some mud hut banana republic that lacks the know how and capacity to manufacture new engine designs.

    The outflow temperature I discuss in my previous post is not a direct measure of the internal turbine temperature since
    there are other variables such as the cooling rate of the exhaust and engine geometry that affect it. But regardless of this,
    it is quite certain that the NPO Saturn engines are operating at substantially higher internal temperatures than the
    obsolete Ukr engines.
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    Luq man

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Luq man on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:10 pm

    kvs wrote: It is obvious that the NPO Saturn engines are exactly using higher internal temperatures
    to gain efficiency.    So the efficiency cannot be nearly identical to the Ukr products.

    I'm no Engineer but I think efficiency is not only devined by inlet temperature. As you can see in that chart the russian gas turbine has a higher RPM than the Ukrainian one. This might play a role in it. But tbh I don't see any issue with this observation done by them. Development never stops and Russia will keep developing these gas turbines further as they are just starting their game in this field. Numbers will keep improving.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:30 pm

    Hm abit later then originally planned but not by much also.

    Good for them they should be producing their own stuff like this was a mistake to allow ukraine to do it in the first place.

    You have to be self sufficient if you want to be a great military power
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:32 pm

    Luq man wrote:Interesting comparison between Ukrainian and Russian Gas turbine engines:
    http://mil.today/2017/Science8/

    See the problem is with things like this, how did Mil today get such information?.

    They do not have access to the engines or the factory and I very much doubt someone high up on the food chain told them.

    When it comes to civilian sites staring "comparisons" I tend to ignore them since they do not have access to the information they would need too state such claims.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:30 pm

    Good for them they should be producing their own stuff like this was a mistake to allow ukraine to do it in the first place.

    No it was not a mistake to allow the Ukraine to make some money building things for the Russian military... Russia had things made during a period when they had no money to develop the capacity to build such things for themselves... if they didn't buy from the Ukraine they would have bought from Germany or China or somewhere similar.


    The purpose of buying from the Ukraine was to keep the Ukrainians working and stable and friendly... the latter didn't work but it could be argued that the slide into anarchy we see today was delayed and would have been accelerated if it was Russia cutting ties in the 1990s rather than the Ukraine cutting ties in the last 5 years.

    Russia had to try to keep the Ukraine friendly by offering them work, but also didn't really have the resources to spend on everything at once and replace all imported material at once. By buying from the Ukraine they have been able to spread out the cost of having to develop foreign technologies with domestic solutions... I am sure Saturn is in a better position now to develop naval propulsion systems than it was in the 1990s, and those production facilities now will be light years ahead of anything they could have produced back then too.


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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:04 am

    kvs wrote:
    Luq man wrote:Interesting comparison between Ukrainian and Russian Gas turbine engines:
    http://mil.today/2017/Science8/

    I smell BS.   Look at the outflow temperature in the chart between the Ukr engines and the NPO Saturn
    engines: 440 vs 506 C and 430 vs 523 C.    All heat engines have efficiency defined by the difference
    between the internal temperature and the reservoir temperature.   It is clear that the NPO Saturn engines
    are operating at much higher temperatures (506/440 or 15% and 523/430 or 22%).  

    The article brings up this issue but only to fob off the Russian achievement.   There is no reference provided
    for the efficiency numbers listed in the chart.   Based on the outflow temperature difference I do not find them
    credible whatsoever.    It is obvious that the NPO Saturn engines are exactly using higher internal temperatures
    to gain efficiency.    So the efficiency cannot be nearly identical to the Ukr products.

    And Russia has the material science knowhow to accommodate higher turbine temperatures using custom
    alloys and even composite materials for turbine blades.    The PAK-FA production engine will have a lot of
    such innovations.    Banderastan is just cranking production of Soviet era engines.

    Carnot efficiency is best written as n = 1 - T(cold)/T(hot) where T(hot) is temperature at which heat is added (ie flame ignition temperature) and T(cold) is reject temperature (ie temp of exhaust gas at engine discharge).

    Overall efficiency is maximised by making T(hot) as high as possible, and using the reject heat to preheat the combustion air and fuel gas (via external heat exchangers). It seems that the new Russian turbines are able to operate at higher internal temperatures, reflecting their more modern design and superior heat resistant materials. russia
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    George1

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:34 pm

    Industrial and marine gas-turbine engines of PJSC "ODK-Saturn"



    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3049996.html


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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Domestic production of gas turbine engines for Russian Navy

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:26 pm

    Looks like Saturn are developing a power turbine  E70/8RD from the M70FRU-2, to be used for offshore/marine electrical generation.  This would be a logical development and pave the way for marine electrical propulsion.



    BTW there is a very nice English-language pdf from Saturn that covers their range of aviation, power & marine turbines:

    http://www.npo-saturn.ru/upload/editifr/2015/49_1_NPO_Saturn_-_expertise,_products,_services.pdf

    Pg 38 has the details for the E70/8RD.

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