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    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

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    Viktor

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Viktor on Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:43 pm

    BQM-74 just recently struck US AEGIS ship which did not managed to shoot the subsonic target flying up to 50 meters above water line. Patetic. 

    Ship hit by errant drone returns to San Diego

    (two solders where injured)



    Not a good advertisement for AEGIS.
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    Deep Throat

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Deep Throat on Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:06 pm

    Viktor wrote:Not a good advertisement for AEGIS.
    Viktor , good information . My vote .

    That being said the USS Chancellorsville cruiser was not tasked to use the Aegis when this incident happened . It was a freak accident.


    TR1 wrote:Now can it intercept a salvo with certainty? That is the real question....
    Very True . But then unless you have  a stockpile of cruise missiles like US ,Russia or China you cannot fire a salvo  .

    Ergo , the question is ( or rather remains) will ships  fitted with the Aster 30  be able to negate 3 or 4  P 800 / Brahmos that' fired towards the ship ?
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    TR1

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  TR1 on Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:29 pm

    I think the Tico was not preparing for firing, and hence didn't have time to activate everything in time to shoot the drown.

    Now the target isn't even particularly impressive, but let's not make too big deal out of it. Soviet Navy hit one of its own ships during trials one time too, even though it was a small ship and certainly no Aegis cruiser.
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    GarryB

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:17 am

    The Sheffield should not have been destroyed either, but had its main radar turned off and was communicating via satellite with London when it was hit.

    On paper Aster 30 might be able to defeat any single attacking missile.

    The high speed of Onyx means any problems or mistakes made by the defending ship will be very costly.

    When the AEGIS cruiser shot down an Iranian Airbus they had a malfunction with the Standard SAM that delayed the launch by one and a half minutes... if the threat had been Onyx they would have been hit.

    BTW Onyx is like Granit and is designed to act in groups to defeat group targets. Granit had up to 12 missiles in a group where one would climb and scan for targets and then drop down and pass target data to the other missiles in the group and assign missiles to targets depending on what they detected... so in a group of 12 missiles it might detect a carrier and two AEGIS cruisers so it might allocate 6 missiles to the carrier and three to each cruiser. At the target end all it saw was one missile pop up above the horizon and then drop back down again.

    I suspect the upgraded electronics of the Onyx from the 1970s tech Granit allows much larger groups of missiles to cooperate.

    Equally any country could order a destroyer from Russia with 4 UKSK launchers for a total of up to 32 Yakhonts or Brahmos missiles... that is pretty potent... in fact if it has Redut SAMs then the new 400km range S-400 missile with a 150kg HE warhead would be a very potent anti ship weapon too.


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    Mike E

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Mike E on Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:49 am

    MOSCOW, August 20 (RIA Novosti) - A supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, developed jointly by Russia and India, leaves any enemy helpless as no effective protection against the BrahMos has been created so far, Sudhir Mishra, the new head of the BrahMos Aerospace Corporation told Rossiya Segodnya International Information Agency.
    “Supersonic speed is the BrahMos’ major advantage. An enemy has yet no effective protection against such missiles. After the missile is launched, all the enemy can do is run. In fact, he has even no time to escape. That is why this is a very promising weapon. And it has no alternatives in the world so far,” Mishra said in an interview Tuesday adding that “even if any other country succeeds one day in creating missiles with similar characteristics, we will be a way ahead already.”
    The BrahMos Aerospace chief said also that a number of countries are currently interested in the project, which may pave the way for the BrahMos’ exports in the future.
    “It will be possible to export the BrahMos only to friendly nations, determined by the governments of India and Russia. Currently, many states are interested in our missiles. As soon as our governments decide on where to export we will be ready for deliveries,” Mishra stressed.
    The Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace was founded in 1998 by the Indian Defense Research and Development Organization and Russian rocket design bureau of Machine Building. The venture was named after two rivers, the Brahmaputra in India and Russia’s Moskva.
    The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 kilometers (180 miles) and can carry a conventional warhead of up to 300 kilograms (660 pounds). It can effectively engage targets from an altitude as low as 10 meters (30 feet) and has a top speed of Mach 2.8, which is about three times faster than the US-made subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile.

    - It is almost sad that this is true... You would think that navies with as much capability as the US Navy could defend themselves against supersonic AShMs like the Brahmos. - I don't even want to know how good Onyx is...
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:06 am

    Submarine launch of Onyx or perhaps Brahmos Question

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    Mike E

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Mike E on Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:23 am

    The thing is too friggin' fast to tell! - Definitely Onyx/Brahmos size, and looks to be the same speed as well...

    What kind of sub?
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    Mike E

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Mike E on Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:45 pm

    I have a question.... Can the Bastion-P fire the Onyx or only the often mentioned Yakhont? I figure it would be the Onyx for quite obvious reasons, but all sources say otherwise.....
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:14 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Submarine launch of Onyx or perhaps Brahmos Question


    It's definitely Brahmos, and from my understanding it wasn't from a specific submarine but from "submarine like conditions".

    Mike E wrote:I have a question.... Can the Bastion-P fire the Onyx or only the often mentioned Yakhont? I figure it would be the Onyx for quite obvious reasons, but all sources say otherwise.....

    Domestic versions will have Onyx, export versions will have Yakhont.
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    Mike E

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:45 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:Submarine launch of Onyx or perhaps Brahmos Question


    It's definitely Brahmos, and from my understanding it wasn't from a specific submarine but from "submarine like conditions".

    Mike E wrote:I have a question.... Can the Bastion-P fire the Onyx or only the often mentioned Yakhont? I figure it would be the Onyx for quite obvious reasons, but all sources say otherwise.....

    Domestic versions will have Onyx, export versions will have Yakhont.  
    Figured, as the "cover" looks unusual.

    Thanks, so it has a range of over 500 km, meaning the units in Crimea cover almost the entire sea.
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    navyfield

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  navyfield on Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:46 pm

    hm launch shaft looks shallow in the water considering light conditions ,and launch rocket engine burned out by the time missle turned on its side.
    looks like yakhont is very depth limited for its launch parameters no more then 10 ,20m,  , suggesting submarine must come close to surface in order to launch so it will be more easily detectable.
    i expected more. cry
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    Mike E

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:22 pm

    You are *actually right for the first time ever*. It does appear to be launched from shallow waters.... However, it is claimed that it will be able to be launched from 60 meters under the ocean, which is *much* deeper than what is shown in ths video. You expected, and they delivered.... It might even be possible that it could be launch from even deeper, but I'll have to wait and see...
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    GarryB

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:56 am

    hm launch shaft looks shallow in the water considering light conditions ,and launch rocket engine burned out by the time missle turned on its side.
    looks like yakhont is very depth limited for its launch parameters no more then 10 ,20m, , suggesting submarine must come close to surface in order to launch so it will be more easily detectable.
    i expected more.

    WOW... amazing analysis... did you also note they keep firing over and over again but only during the day time, so clearly it doesn't work at night... which is a real limitation... Twisted Evil

    I also suspect it was videoed in the northern hemisphere so it likely can't be fired south of the equator either... what a crap missile Twisted Evil


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    navyfield

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  navyfield on Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:04 pm

    Mike E wrote:You are *actually right for the first time ever*. It does appear to be launched from shallow waters.... However, it is claimed that it will be able to be launched from 60 meters under the ocean, which is *much* deeper than what is shown in ths video. You expected, and they delivered.... It might even be possible that it could be launch from even deeper, but I'll have to wait and see...
    i doubt it can be launched from more then 20m ,it takes time to steer the missile and clear the surface by few meters...its the weak spot for yakhont.
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    Mike E

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Mike E on Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:06 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    Mike E wrote:You are *actually right for the first time ever*. It does appear to be launched from shallow waters.... However, it is claimed that it will be able to be launched from 60 meters under the ocean, which is *much* deeper than what is shown in ths video. You expected, and they delivered.... It might even be possible that it could be launch from even deeper, but I'll have to wait and see...
    i doubt it can be launched from more then 20m ,it takes time to steer the missile and clear the surface by few meters...its the weak spot for yakhont.
    A) Yes, it is rated to be launched from a depth of 60 meters.

    B) It prepositions itself over the water, so that doesn't mean a thing...

    C) Not a weak-point, and the missile launched was a Brahmos...
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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:33 am

    No body has mentioned that to offset the limit of launching in shallow water and only in daytime that over the couple of days I have been watching that video literally hundreds of missiles have been launched from that one tube and they still keep coming...


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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  navyfield on Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:22 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    Mike E wrote:You are *actually right for the first time ever*. It does appear to be launched from shallow waters.... However, it is claimed that it will be able to be launched from 60 meters under the ocean, which is *much* deeper than what is shown in ths video. You expected, and they delivered.... It might even be possible that it could be launch from even deeper, but I'll have to wait and see...
    i doubt it can be launched from more then 20m ,it takes time to steer the missile and clear the surface by few meters...its the weak spot for yakhont.
    A) Yes, it is rated to be launched from a depth of 60 meters.

    B) It prepositions itself over the water, so that doesn't mean a thing...

    C) Not a weak-point, and the missile launched was a Brahmos...
    any proof for 60m depth capable launch claim???
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    Werewolf

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:25 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    Mike E wrote:You are *actually right for the first time ever*. It does appear to be launched from shallow waters.... However, it is claimed that it will be able to be launched from 60 meters under the ocean, which is *much* deeper than what is shown in ths video. You expected, and they delivered.... It might even be possible that it could be launch from even deeper, but I'll have to wait and see...
    i doubt it can be launched from more then 20m ,it takes time to steer the missile and clear the surface by few meters...its the weak spot for yakhont.
    A) Yes, it is rated to be launched from a depth of 60 meters.

    B) It prepositions itself over the water, so that doesn't mean a thing...

    C) Not a weak-point, and the missile launched was a Brahmos...
    any proof for 60m depth capable launch claim???

    Any proof from you that it can not?

    Who'S claim has more weight, some idiot on a forum that only bitches like a little pussy or manufactorer of submarine and SLBM?
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    navyfield

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  navyfield on Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:33 pm

    allot of foaming but still no link or any substantial evidence Rolling Eyes ,welcome to my ignore list....
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    Mike E

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:39 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    Mike E wrote:You are *actually right for the first time ever*. It does appear to be launched from shallow waters.... However, it is claimed that it will be able to be launched from 60 meters under the ocean, which is *much* deeper than what is shown in ths video. You expected, and they delivered.... It might even be possible that it could be launch from even deeper, but I'll have to wait and see...
    i doubt it can be launched from more then 20m ,it takes time to steer the missile and clear the surface by few meters...its the weak spot for yakhont.
    A) Yes, it is rated to be launched from a depth of 60 meters.

    B) It prepositions itself over the water, so that doesn't mean a thing...

    C) Not a weak-point, and the missile launched was a Brahmos...
    any proof for 60m depth capable launch claim???
    Yes, go to *any* source that has information on the Brahmos! They are bound to have at least a little info on the subject of launching depth, and I guarantee that you can find one (I know I can)....

    To everybody else; if you are so pissed off by this guy, just request he be banned rather than returning insults.... - As GarryB one said to me "it lowers yourself to their level".
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    GarryB

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:22 am

    I remember on another forum there were posters who wanted to know stuff, but didn't want to ask nicely so they turned it into an argument to try to get others to search the internet for the information for them.

    You made the claim this missile can only be fired from shallow water... you back it up with manufacturers figures to prove it.


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    Mike E

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:15 am

    What do you guys think of this article; http://gizmodo.com/why-americas-navy-is-so-concerned-about-these-russian-m-1641323648/all ? 

    In typical Western fashion, they fail to mention that the Onyx has a greater range than the Yakhont, and that is has a lower flight altitude of 10 m... Don't even bother to mention how they call the Phalanx and SeaRAM "exotic", what a joke! - On a side note, couldn't the Onyx's speed be adjusted via its ramjet?
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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:00 am

    I suspect the writer meant to put "such weapons as Phalanx and Sea Ram or exotic weapons like EM guns:. or some such thing.

    Moskit does not have 4 ramjet engines... it has one... it has four air intakes for that one ramjet engine... don't look at the front of an aircraft to see how many engines it has... look at the rear.

    On a side note, couldn't the Onyx's speed be adjusted via its ramjet?

    A ramjet engine burns fuel subsonically, so for the ramjet it is the same situation as a turbojet engine... at high speed it has to balance air coming into the intake as subsonic speed so the engine does not choke, but having the air exit the engine at the highest speed possible to maximise thrust.

    Flying at low altitude the top speed of the Onyx is probably mach 1.8-1.9 in the thick air at low altitude.

    At high altitude it can fly rather faster in the thinner colder air, but very low altitude offers the maximum opportunity for surprise.

    Amusingly the article didn't mention the pack tactics the missiles adopt when attacking targets and how they can operate together to maximise their effect.

    they also didn't mention the Klub missile that travels long ranges at subsonic speeds till it gets close to the target area and then launches a Mach 2.9 final rocket stage to penetrate the final layer of defences... ie Phalanx and Sea RAM.... likely the fastest low flying anti ship missile available until ramjet powered missiles become available... obviously the Kh-32 will come in faster but from a high altitude dive....


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    Mike E

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:I suspect the writer meant to put "such weapons as Phalanx and Sea Ram or exotic weapons like EM guns:. or some such thing.

    Moskit does not have 4 ramjet engines... it has one... it has four air intakes for that one ramjet engine... don't look at the front of an aircraft to see how many engines it has... look at the rear.

    On a side note, couldn't the Onyx's speed be adjusted via its ramjet?

    A ramjet engine burns fuel subsonically, so for the ramjet it is the same situation as a turbojet engine... at high speed it has to balance air coming into the intake as subsonic speed so the engine does not choke, but having the air exit the engine at the highest speed possible to maximise thrust.

    Flying at low altitude the top speed of the Onyx is probably mach 1.8-1.9 in the thick air at low altitude.

    At high altitude it can fly rather faster in the thinner colder air, but very low altitude offers the maximum opportunity for surprise.

    Amusingly the article didn't mention the pack tactics the missiles adopt when attacking targets and how they can operate together to maximise their effect.

    they also didn't mention the Klub missile that travels long ranges at subsonic speeds till it gets close to the target area and then launches a Mach 2.9 final rocket stage to penetrate the final layer of defences... ie Phalanx and Sea RAM.... likely the fastest low flying anti ship missile available until ramjet powered missiles become available... obviously the Kh-32 will come in faster but from a high altitude dive....
    Probably...

    That makes sense about the speed, but that is more of a "scram-jet issue* than a *ramjet one*. Not to say it doesn't have effect.

     - The article (because of the source) would never mention the "wolf-pack" tactics or longer range etc. Their sources are wiki for the most part!
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    GarryB

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    Onyx/BrahMos

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:09 pm

    With a scramjet engine things are made much easier because the air coming in does not need to be slowed down to subsonic speeds and then accelerated through the engine back up to high supersonic speeds to generate thrust.

    Air coming in at mach 3 can be further accelerated and generate rather more thrust in a scramjet engine at any height.

    It mentions Onyx has double the range of Moskit... Moskit had a range of something like 110-120km in the original version (that entered service in the early 1980s on Sovremmeny Class Destroyers).

    Onyx is known to have a range of at least 500km and often quoted in the 500-700km range.


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