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    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

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    Russian Patriot
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    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Russian Patriot on Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:12 pm

    Since Syria wanted Yakhont , I thought i will go over it:

    3M55 Oniks / P-800 Yakhont / P-800 Bolid / SSN-X-26


    The supersonic P-800 Yakhont (Gem) is a ramjet version of P-80 Zubr [SS-N-7 Starbright]. The ship, submarine and coastal-launched Yakhont is launched from the unified ampoule-shaped transport-launching container (TLC). The container is 9 m long, is 0.71 m in diameter. The firing range reaches 300 km (162 nmi.) when flying along a combined trajectory and 120 kg (265 lb.) when following only a low-altitude trajectory. Flight speed varying over the range from M=2.0 to M=2.5 is provided by the kerosene-fueled multi-mode liquid-fuel ramjet. The P-800 Bolid is the encapsulated, submarine launched version of Yakhont. An air-launched version of the missile with the take-off weight of 2,500 kg (5,507 lb.) is also being developed. The closest American counterparts, the Tomahawk and Harpoon missiles, are subsonic; the best French antiship missile, the Exocet, has a range of only 45 miles.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/ss-n-26.htm

    3M55 Oniks / P-800 Yakhont / P-800 Bolid / SSN-X-26 Specifications :
    Country of Origin Russia  
    Builder Beriev  
    Role Amphibious anti-submarine patrol aircraft  
    Range 300 km mixed trajectory
    120 km low trajectory
    Speed Mach 2 to 2.5
    Flight altitude 5 to 15 meters, final phase
    Weight of warhead 200 kg [about]
    Guidance active-passive, radar seeker head
    Minimum target detection range 50 km in active mode
    Maximum seeker head search angle 45 degrees
    Propulsion solid propellant booster stage

    liquid-propellant ramjet sustainre motor

    Launcher type underwater, surface ship, land
    Launch method from closed bottom launch-container
    Launch angle range 15 to 90 degrees
    Weight 3,000 kg launch
    3,900 kg in launch-container  
    Launch-container dimensions 8.9 meters length
    0.7 meters diameter

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/ss-n-26-specs.htm


    Last edited by Russian Patriot on Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Onyx vs Yakhont

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:31 pm

    I was under the impression that Onyx was the Russian model of the weapon and that the Yakhont was the downgraded model for export as required by the Missile Technology Control Regime which limits the export of missiles with a payload of 500kgs or more or a range of more than 300km.
    There is no reason why the Onyx should be limited to 300km range or restricted in warhead size.
    It is the same with the Iskander-E which is an exportable weapon, while the Russian Army actually use a weapon called Tender-M which has a different heavier payload and longer range according to some sources.

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Austin on Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:29 pm

    Some news on latest Brahmos test via ( Black Eagle )


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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  nightcrawler on Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:41 pm

    @Austin
    So tell me India got Brahmos & Pakistan got C-802 antiship cruise missile.
    One is supersonic & the latter ~sonic.
    Being ramjet powered the Brahmos suffers from high altitude detection & interception. Its min altitude above sea level is 10m while C-802 is about 3m; however Brahmos is popular because of its high destructive power; owing to high speed say ~twice of C-802 its penetration & kinetic blow will be twice deadly than C-802. Being a Russian legacy of making things spacious its warhead too is ~twice heavy roughly 200kg as opposed to 110kg for C-802.
    So in a way a single shot of Brahmos can take down a cruiser ship which otherwise will require two C-802!!
    by the way can Brahmos be launched from a warplane?? because C-802 variant is integrated in JF-17




    What are your views

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Austin on Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:16 pm

    nightcrawler C-802 is more comparable to Kh-35 Uran missile.

    Brahmos is in a different league and it really keeps getting better specially the Block 2 is a very unique missile with unique characteristics.

    More ever the KE imparted by Brahmos is 9 times more lethal than subsonic missile and not 2x times that you have mentioned.

    You can read more on Brahmos from their official page http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=10

    I do not think any where in the world there exist a missile like Brahmos ,Its really in a league of its own and a outcome of Indo-Russian joint effort.

    C-802 like Uran missile has its own niche space and will have its value due to subsonic low level penetration and its still a challenge for any AD system to deal with.

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  nightcrawler on Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:09 pm

    More ever the KE imparted by Brahmos is 9 times more lethal than subsonic missile and not 2x times that you have mentioned.

    Sorry my bad

    K.E (c)=0.5*m*v^2 (of C-802)

    Brahmos has relatively double mass & double Mach no

    K.E (b)=0.5*(2m)*(2v)^2 (of Brahmos)
    K.E (b)=8*K.E (c)

    roughly~8 times
    ummmm......... close to your estimate

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:25 am

    The key here is speed.

    If you have 10 seconds to find and engage a target this is different to having 1 minute to engage a target.

    The difference height makes is detection distance and it is also a test of your radar and other detection equipment so close to a large moving surface.

    Phalanx for example suffered terribly from wave clutter and a target moving 3m above the wave tops might get through no matter how fast it is moving.

    With a supersonic target like Brahmos however Phalanx has a different problem because travelling at over 800m/s means that the effective range of the Phalanx of 1.6km means a 2 second burst is all you are going to get. At 4,500rpm which is the high fire rate that means 150 shots at the target smaller than the size of a desktop with no wings as such. This means you have to hit to kill... detonate the warhead because its speed is keeping it airborne and not some wings that could be blown off to make it plunge into the water.
    Even worse than that because of the speed of the incoming missile there is no point in firing at it within about 400m because your lead of the target will mean when it is 400m away you are firing rounds into your own ship. Add to that it takes the gun half a second to wind up to full fire rate and we are looking at less than 100 shots at the missile before impact and that simply isn't good enough to ensure a kill let alone make a kill likely.
    The USN agrees with this and has replaced the Phalanx with Sea Ram.

    A subsonic missile on the other hand spends a lot longer time in the kill zone and if it is alone should be effectively engaged by the defences of the target unless the target is unaware it is under attack.

    At the end of the day surprise is what you want, but the Yakhont was designed for use against US carrier groups so the assumption was that surprise was not possible so speed was used to compensate.

    BTW the figures given in the first post for Yakhont seem to be very similar to the figures for the Moskit or SS-N-22, except the Moskit weighs 4.5 ton in its air launched version.

    The Moskit was deemed able to defeat the AEGIS class cruiser of the 1980s (by flying at below 7m so Standard SM-2 couldn't intercept it, and at mach 2.5 so Phalanx was not much use either). Yakhont and Brahmos have similar performance but are 2 tons lighter! That is impressive. I would also expect their electronics are smarter too.

    Brahmos isn't perfect but it was designed for a specific role which it does better than all other non-Russian/Soviet missiles.

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  nightcrawler on Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:47 pm

    @GarryB

    With a supersonic target like Brahmos however Phalanx has a different problem because travelling at over 800m/s means that the effective range of the Phalanx of 1.6km means a 2 second burst is all you are going to get. At 4,500rpm which is the high fire rate that means 150 shots at the target smaller than the size of a desktop with no wings as such. This means you have to hit to kill... detonate the warhead because its speed is keeping it airborne and not some wings that could be blown off to make it plunge into the water.
    Even worse than that because of the speed of the incoming missile there is no point in firing at it within about 400m because your lead of the target will mean when it is 400m away you are firing rounds into your own ship. Add to that it takes the gun half a second to wind up to full fire rate and we are looking at less than 100 shots at the missile before impact and that simply isn't good enough to ensure a kill let alone make a kill likely

    Good [post]

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:23 am


    Russia to honor deal to sell P-800 anti-ship missiles to Syria

    RIA Novosti

    07:14 17/09/2010 WASHINGTON, September 17 (RIA Novosti) - Russia will honor the contract to sell the P-800 Yakhont supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles to Syria, Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said.

    "It is the 2007 contract. The issue of selling the missiles to Syria was raised during the talks with U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates... Undoubtedly, it [the contract] would be fulfilled by the Russian side," the Russian minister said.

    Israeli media said in late August that the country was working to thwart Syria's plans to get the highly accurate missiles, which Israel considers a threat to its navy vessels in the Mediterranean Sea. Kremlin aide Sergei Prikhodko dismissed the media reports.

    The P-800 Yakhont missiles (known as P-800 Oniks in Russia) have a range of 300 kilometers, carry a 200-kilogram warhead and feature a unique ability to cruise several meters above the surface, making it difficult to detect and intercept them.


    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2010/09/mil-100917-rianovosti02.htm

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:42 am

    I guess this will have the Israelis jumping up and down about selling to states that support terrorism...

    The Yakhont is of course the export model of the Onyx which has no land attack capability... unless you apply the technology developed for Brahmos... and if it was that easy India would have bought Yakhont and then updated it themselves.

    AFAIK the Yakhont is able to be launched from air, land and sea and undersea platforms... is there any word on which model they want?
    I would guess the shipborne model most likely along with the shore based system perhaps just as likely.

    It is sophisticated enough to determine the radar signatures of target vessels so it shouldn't be too hard for them to load the signatures of the Israeli and other vessels they want to target so that it will ignore civilian shipping in the region.
    The guidance system was supposed to include some of the intelligence of the Granit system, though with a range of 300km it doesn't need the satellite support system that Granit can use with its 700km range. Aircraft with passive sensors should be able to identify naval targets at 3-400km by their emissions alone and a bearing will be enough to launch a strike on a target with a number of Yakhonts where most will fly low and receive target data from the lead missile flying at about 300m. Once the lead missile detects the target or target group it will do a quick scan and pass the radar picture to the other missiles lower down and will assign a missile to a target based on its database of signatures. Larger vessels assigned more missiles than smaller missiles. The lead missile will then descend and the attack will progress with the missiles using the downloaded radar picture to find their assigned target and attack it.

    A very potent weapon.

    Of course suicide for Syrian navy if they use it without justification.

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Robert.V on Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:09 pm

    speed is only one thing ....both the Vulcan and Granit could performing evasive maneuvers to dodge a missile if it was heading their way from what I have read. Only to some degree as much as possible without compromising flight performance envelope to do so. (bleeding speed.) ..this all could be a fairy tale though.

    I do remember though that Moskit would do a evasive snake maneuvers automatically though only at it's final stage. 3M-54E from the klub family also does variety of evasive maneuvers after it goes into it's supersonic terminal stage to maximise it's chance reaching and hitting it's target.


    Any idea if Onyx performance evasive maneuvers Garry ?


    Edit


    I think even if Russia sold Syria a banana, Isreal would jump up and down and woam at the mouth.

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:26 am

    I would guarantee it performs evasive manoeuvres in its terminal phase to make hitting it with cannon fire near impossible. GRANIT, MOSKIT, ONYX, YAKHONT, BRAHMOS all do it too.
    When the incoming missile is moving at 800m/s+ then the aim point is going to be well in front of it. If Phalanx starts engaging at its max effective range of 1.6km then the projectile flight time to that distance will be about 1.5 seconds, which means the missile itself will be (assuming 800m/s of the target) 1.2km + 1.6km away, or 2.8km from the ship. The phalanx will start firing and its first rounds from its burst will arrive 1.6km from the ship, so the incoming missile has travelled 1.2km before the first rounds have a chance of hitting it. A few up and down manouvers of 10 degrees or so from 3km from the ship will result in that initial burst going too high or into the sea because a 10 degree climb over 1.2km will be dozens of metres above the level flight altitude of the missile... if it only climbs for 600m and then starts to dive and turn to one side then not only the first burst will miss by dozens of metres but the instant correction will also lead the Phalanx to overcorrect and spray wildly.
    These manouvers are not 90 degree turns and will not slow the missile too much so that Phalanx still gets maybe 100 rounds to hit the target before impact and it hasn't started well. Even a random corkscrew manouver will lead to a small fraction of the possible hits actually hitting the target.
    Those rounds that do hit will have to deal with lightweight Ti armour protecting the warhead.

    My money is on the Yakhont... and the US Navy replacing the Phalanx with SEA RAM suggest they agree with me.

    Onyx is the missile the Russians use, Yakhont is the range and warhead limited export model. Brahmos has an enormous electronic and sensor upgrade to add land attack capability in addition to being able to hit sea targets.
    The Onyx is a long range Yakhont with nuclear warhead options.
    This system is the land based truck launched Yakhont but it comes in lots of versions including surface and subsurface and air launched models.
    Yakhont is anti ship only and has no land attack capability (like Onyx).
    Converting it to land attack capability would be like converting an AMRAAM to anti tank use... ie all new guidance and warhead fusing etc etc.
    The Indians wanted a missile to attack land targets and they spent quite a bit of money and got the makers of the Yakhont to help them. If India couldn't do it alone then I rather doubt the Syrians could.

    Of course as you mention the Israelis are in one breath upset at the sale of a banana, and in the other breath they will say that it is OK because they have a defence against Bananas and will share this defence to render Russian Bananas useless.

    Russian Bananas are only cheap and simple copies of much better American bananas anyway because Russia has no intelligent people... or something like that.

    Forget Yakhonts... how many shipping containers are heading to Syria too!!!! Smile

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:26 am

    What Garry said. The Klub is a far more superior and entertaining missile than the Onyx. Anywho, I give the Sea Ram, Sea Sparrow, and ESSM a good chance of intercepting the first 1 or 2 Onyx/Klubs. However, after doing the some radar horizon formulas, the maximum detection range of a 5 meter skimming Klub(3 meters will put it danger close to ocean waves, converting it into a Shkval) against an AN/SPY-1 mounted 16 meters equals to about 25.7 km. Traveling at 986 meters per second(M. 2.9), that would make the time from detection to impact out to 26 seconds. Against a Phalanx, penetration of the ship's defensive systems are almost guaranteed. Against Sea Ram, Sea Sparrow, and ESSM, again, good chance that the first 2 Klubs will get hit. Against the Steregushchy class of corvettes(2 are commissioned, each can carry 6 Klubs), that would mean a saturation fire of 12 Klubs, with minimal losses to them due to AEGIS. Assuming they're fired against a Nimitz class, assume 4 are intercepted, 8 Klubs = 1.6 tonnes of explosives detonating within the Nimitz. From Kinetic energy alone, each would generate about 20 kg of TNT equivalent upon impact, and depending on where they hit, I give it a fair probability of sinking said carrier.

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Austin on Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:33 pm

    The Brahmos seems to be getting better , we now have a Block 3 variant which can be used in mountain warfare.

    Groshkov Class ships will be armed with Brahmos.

    BrahMos Block-III+ Test-fired



    DRDO Statement: The BRAHMOS Block III+ version was successfully test fired this morning at 1055 hours from a test range in Orissa. This landmark test once again established the mountain warfare capability of the supersonic cruise missile with new guidance scheme incorporating large scale manoeuvre and steep dive with precision strike capability. A naval ship placed with telemetry stations confirmed the accuracy of the mission and marked it as a text book launch. In this launch campaign the missile was put though extreme conditions and it successfully went through all complicated manoeuvres as envisaged in the battlefield in mountain terrains following the exact flight path given to it, said Dr. A. Sivathanu Pillai, CEO & Managing Director of BrahMos Aerospace.

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:26 pm

    Gorshkov will be armed with Yakhont.

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Austin on Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:36 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:Gorshkov will be armed with Yakhont.

    No the russians have explicitly mentioned that Groshkov will be the first ship to have Brahmos ,its a joint development where both India and Russia will adopt it.

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Austin on Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:09 pm

    Video of Brahmos Block 3 launch that took today ( via livefist )


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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:19 am

    No the russians have explicitly mentioned that Groshkov will be the first ship to have Brahmos ,its a joint development where both India and Russia will adopt it.

    First of all Yakhont is the downgraded export model of the Onyx, but the Onyx is not for export and is technically secret so they will call it by its export name, Yakhont.

    Second the Brahmos is based on the Yakhont but the modifications made to Yakhont to create Brahmos could very easily be applied to the Onyx which is a longer ranged missile with a larger warhead.

    Third I think the Russians might apply the improvements of the Brahmos to the Onyx and simply publicly call it Brahmos because the Brahmos upgrade was a significant upgrade over Yakhont.

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Austin on Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:38 am

    Brahmos has a decent range of ~ 290 km for arm frigate and corvette , More ever they have publicly stated that Groshkov class frigate will be armed with Brahmos http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080620/111481295.html

    Brahmos Now comes in 3 blocks

    Brahmos block 1 --> Antiship missile plus Land Attack for large Radio Contrast target

    Brahmos block 2 --> Land Attack with new SCAN seeker plus Steep Diving Complex Trajectory which can attack a small target among multiple targets

    Brahmos block 3 ---> Land Attack with improvement in sensors to attack targets in mountainous terrain.

    Most of the seeker and electronic improvement is Indian contribution to Brahmos

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Austin on Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:05 am

    Ok this is what Dr Pillai said on Brahmos

    http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/article928444.ece

    While BrahMos Block-I version is an anti-ship missile, Block-II is an Army version meant for attacking targets on land. The latest Block-III is meant for operations in mountain warfare where the missile has to hit the target with a steep dive, Dr. Pillai said.

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Austin on Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:59 am

    Russia spat delays BrahMos air version

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:15 am

    While BrahMos Block-I version is an anti-ship missile, Block-II
    is an Army version meant for attacking targets on land. The latest
    Block-III is meant for operations in mountain warfare where the missile
    has to hit the target with a steep dive, Dr. Pillai said.

    So the Russians would really only use the Block I model as the Russian Army seems happy with Iskander/Tender-M.

    Russia spat delays BrahMos air version

    The Su-30MKI is Indias plane. AFAIK the Yakhont/Onyx has already been tested on the Su-34... I have seen a video of a launch. I would expect they also have or are testing Yakhont/Onyx on the Su-35 as well... but who should pay for it to be integrated to the Su-30MKI? The Su-30MKI is Indias plane.

    BTW the USUK vertical launcher fitted to the Gorshkov should be compatible with Brahmos, Onyx, and Yakhont, because they are all very similar. This will also make Russian exported naval vessels more attractive because if India doesn't approve of export of Brahmos they can have Yakhont, while Russia can choose Onyx (for range) or Brahmos (for flexibility).

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Austin on Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:47 am

    ^^^ Yes I agree , Brahmos is a 49:51 JV between NPO Mash and DRDO , so cant expect NPO to alone foot the bill , its Brahmos Corp who should.

    For MKI reconversion the IAF should foot the bill since IAF will use it.

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:03 pm

    Indonesian Navy successfully tests Russian anti-ship missile

    The Indonesian Navy has successfully tested a Russian-made anti-ship missile for the first time, the Antara national news agency reported on Thursday.

    The Yakhont anti-ship missile was launched on Wednesday from the Van Speijk class frigate, Oswald Siahaan, during naval exercises in the Indian Ocean. Russian observers oversaw the drills, which involved 12 ships and over 1,000 personnel.

    It took six minutes for the missile to cover 250 kilometers and destroy a designated target.

    "The target ship was hit [by the missile] and sank," Navy spokesman Rear Admiral Iskandar Sitompul said. "We bought these missiles a long time ago, and have finally tested them."

    Indonesia bought an undisclosed number of Russian SS-N-26 Yakhont supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles for $1.2-million apiece in 2007 to replace Harpoon missiles on its frigates.

    The missile has a maximum range of 300 kilometers when cruising at high altitude. It flies at low level during the terminal phase, and between 5 and 15 meters in altitude.

    MOSCOW, April 21 (RIA Novosti)


    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110421/163634028.html

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    Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Viktor on Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:31 pm

    Small price for such a potent weapon. 1.2 M a piece.

    500 of them would cost just 600M but give a credible advantage over its neighbours.

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