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    How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

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    RTN
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    How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  RTN on Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:21 am

    I have always maintained that regardless of all the yada yada from India and Russia the Onyx/Brahmos can actually be shot down quite easily. This is a detailed explanation of how the US Navy will accomplish it

    http://defencyclopedia.com/2014/12/27/explained-how-the-us-navy-can-shoot-down-the-deadly-brahmos-missile/


    The main disadvantages of BrahMos are

    Only 120 km range when using Lo-altitude sea-skimming profile

    Not intelligent ( can’t take evasive measures on its own to avoid interceptor missiles and follows predetermined path)

    So basically the Onyx/Brahmos can be shot down using

    LONG RANGE SAM:

    The US Navy uses the SM-2 as its standard long range SAM on its destroyers. It has a range of 90+ km and uses a semi-active homing radar seeker which means that the mechanically scanning illuminators on board the warships should provide them with guidance.


    MEDIUM RANGE SAM:

    Once the missiles are detected by the AWACS at 150+ km from the ship, the usual procedure would be to direct fighter jets from a nearby carrier towards the missile to shoot it down. The 50 km range Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM) which is quad packed and hence large quantities are available. This is very useful as one cell packs 4 MR-SAM compared to 1 LR-SAM.


    SHORT RANGE (POINT DEFENSE) SAM:

    This is a relatively simple task for systems like the Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) or Barak-1 which are designed to kill sea skimming supersonic missiles.

    ANTI-MISSILE GUNS:

    The Phalanx CIWS is a closed loop system, with the search-tracking radar and the 20 mm Gatling gun and ammunition combined into a self-sustained system. It has a max range of 3 km and an effective range of 1.5 km when dealing with low flying cruise missiles. If it faces a single BrahMos which has bypassed other missile defense layers, the radar of the Phalanx locks on to the BrahMos and unleashes a torrent of 20 mm depleted uranium projectiles which should shred the BrahMos easily.


    LASER CIWS:

    It is currently capable of shooting down slow aerial and surface targets, but with improvements, by the next decade, a laser CIWS would be widely deployed and would be capable of swatting multiple BrahMos missiles like flies.




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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:45 am

    You keep saying "easy" shot down this and that, fact is a supersonic missile is out of the range of maximum effective engagement range of any SAM and CIWS won't have much off effective range above 1km, it is a supersonic missile after all and CIWS miss with over 98% of their projectiles even the superior Kashtan has short effective range against supersonic missiles. The maximum range of SM-2 means nothing against supersonic missiles which indeed are intelligent and have evasive flight profile.

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    Ра­ке­та вы­пол­не­на по нор­маль­ной аэ­ро­ди­на­ми­че­ской схе­ме с тра­пе­цие­вид­ным склад­ным кры­лом и опе­ре­ни­ем. Аэ­ро­ди­на­ми­ка пла­не­ра в со­че­та­нии с вы­со­кой тя­го­во­ору­жен­но­стью обес­пе­чи­ва­ет вы­со­кую ма­нёв­рен­ность (мак­си­маль­ный угол ата­ки - до 150 гра­ду­сов), по­зво­ляю­щую ра­ке­те вы­пол­нять эф­фек­тив­ные ма­нев­ры ук­ло­не­ния от средств ПРО про­тив­ни­ка.

    The rocket is made by the normal aerodynamic scheme with trapezoidal folding wings and tail surfaces. Aerodynamics of the airframe, combined with high thrust provides high maneuverability (the maximum angle of attack - up to 150 degrees), allowing the missile to perform effective evasive maneuvers from the enemy SAM.

    The maximum range is 300km.

    обес­пе­чи­ва­ет­ся при по­лё­те по ком­би­ни­ро­ван­ной тра­ек­то­рии с мар­ше­вым уча­ст­ком на вы­со­те 14 км при ско­ро­сти, со­от­вет­ст­вую­щей М=2,5, с по­сле­дую­щим брею­щим по­ле­том на вы­со­те 10-15 м от вод­ной по­верх­но­сти при под­дер­жа­нии ско­ро­сти 600 м/с на по­след­них 40 км сбли­же­ния с це­лью.

    is provided during the flight on the combined trajectory in mid-flight area at an altitude of 14 km at a speed corresponding to M=2.5, and with the subsequent shaving the flight at a height of 10-15 m from the water surface while maintaining the speed of 600 m/s for the last 40 km approach.

    This evasive supersonic Anti ship Missile is not "easily" defeated.

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  Stealthflanker on Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:24 pm

    How many they can shoot down at a time is the real question.

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  Firebird on Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:53 pm

    RTN wrote:I have always maintained that regardless of all the yada yada from India and Russia the Onyx/Brahmos can actually be shot down quite easily. This is a detailed explanation of how the US Navy will accomplish it

    http://defencyclopedia.com/2014/12/27/explained-how-the-us-navy-can-shoot-down-the-deadly-brahmos-missile/


    The main disadvantages of BrahMos are

    Only 120 km range when using Lo-altitude sea-skimming profile

    Not intelligent ( can’t take evasive measures on its own to avoid interceptor missiles and follows predetermined path)

    So basically the Onyx/Brahmos can be shot down using

    LONG RANGE SAM:

    The US Navy uses the SM-2 as its standard long range SAM on its destroyers. It has a range of 90+ km and uses a semi-active homing radar seeker which means that the mechanically scanning illuminators on board the warships should provide them with guidance.


    MEDIUM RANGE SAM:

    Once the missiles are detected by the AWACS at 150+ km from the ship, the usual procedure would be to direct fighter jets from a nearby carrier towards the missile to shoot it down. The 50 km range Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM) which is quad packed and hence large quantities are available. This is very useful as one cell packs 4 MR-SAM compared to 1 LR-SAM.


    SHORT RANGE (POINT DEFENSE) SAM:

    This is a relatively simple task for systems like the Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) or Barak-1 which are designed to kill sea skimming supersonic missiles.

    ANTI-MISSILE GUNS:

    The Phalanx CIWS is a closed loop system, with the search-tracking radar and the 20 mm Gatling gun and ammunition combined into a self-sustained system. It has a max range of 3 km and an effective range of 1.5 km when dealing with low flying cruise missiles. If it faces a single BrahMos which has bypassed other missile defense layers, the radar of the Phalanx locks on to the BrahMos and unleashes a torrent of 20 mm depleted uranium projectiles which should shred the BrahMos easily.


    LASER CIWS:

    It is currently capable of shooting down slow aerial and surface targets, but with improvements, by the next decade, a laser CIWS would be widely deployed and would be capable of swatting multiple BrahMos missiles like flies.




    Lots of errors in the article and its reasoning. Not least the suggestion that India has deliberately developed a system to let its rivals destroy its best ASM missile's capability.

    It also completely ignores Brahmos's qualities.

    America has lots of military strengths. But defending its ships vs Brahmos, Russian antiship missiles or 2nd tier militaries is not one of them. Many US articles openly admit this.

    Russia's missiles are a fair way ahead of India's, and can be tweaked even more whenever Russia so desires (eg range).

    However the topic of the mechanics of it all is very interesting. Hopefully I'll have time to comment later.


    PS even the full article admits that America would really struggle. So I dont understand why you've chosen to put your own spin on things with your summary..

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    Total Nonsense

    Post  calripson on Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

    You sound like a US Naval Admiral justifying budgets for new carriers. The problem is not whether you can theoretically shoot down a missile. The problem is can you stop all the missiles launched from striking your high value targets. One missile strike on a service ship renders its electronics and systems unusable even if the ship survives. There is a cumulative effect as ships are struck in a task force. As far as Russia is concerned, you now have to add the element of nuclear warheads which makes the task of maintaining the combat efficiency of your task force exponentially more difficult. Even a near miss with a nuclear warhead is going to wreak havoc with electronic systems.

    Let history be your guide. What was the result of anti-ship missiles vs the British fleet in the Falklands ? USS Stark in the Persian Gulf ? Israeli corvette vs Hezbollah ?

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  victor1985 on Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:05 pm

    If the brahmos has far see capability will steer in time.

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  victor1985 on Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:09 pm

    calripson wrote:You sound like a US Naval Admiral justifying budgets for new carriers. The problem is not whether you can theoretically shoot down a missile. The problem is can you stop all the missiles launched from striking your high value targets. One missile strike on a service ship renders its electronics and systems unusable even if the ship survives. There is a cumulative effect as ships are struck in a task force. As far as Russia is concerned, you now have to add the element of nuclear warheads which makes the task of maintaining the combat efficiency of your task force exponentially more difficult. Even a near miss with a nuclear warhead is going to wreak havoc with electronic systems.

    Let history be your guide. What was the result of anti-ship missiles vs the British fleet in the Falklands ? USS Stark in the Persian Gulf ? Israeli corvette vs Hezbollah ?
    A warship that has 15 missiles on it will face not only the quantity of missiles but the quality also. So its very improbable to stop all at least half will break trought.

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  victor1985 on Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:25 pm

    Lets think to reverse. From the same reasons american missiles can be shoot. Lets think at a gatling that have video calculating of missile trajectory. It can shoot ahead the missile on a interception course and fill the air whit exploding shells that will surround the missile. In this the probability to shoot a missile increase. In this performant radar and tehniques not matter. Huge gatlings that can shoot from 10 km would prevent shoots from above at 90°.

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  Firebird on Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:30 pm

    One big mistake of the article is its claim that Brahmos (and the Russian versions) are just fast.
    That is wrong. There are elements of stealth, elements of intelligence, and heavy duty elements of evasion. It also omits how the Russian version can hunt in "packs", like wolves.

    Similarly, the Ru/Indian missiles have surprisingly long ranges in certain variants. And the Russian ones could easily be modified to break treaties if need be. But with sub or plane launch, longer range than they already have wouldnt really be necessary.

    I would suspect that in many cases, by the time a Ru missile was detected, America would be struggling with its last 2 layers of defence. Thats one reason Russia treats its submarine fleet so seriously.

    Ultimately the US lacks the speed and the homing systems necessary to provide a cost effective defence to naval groups. A group of Brahmos missiles are pretty cheap compared to the destroyer or carrier they would destroy.

    The next big mistake is to suggest that India (who is substantially behind Russia) will have given away its secrets to the Indo Israeli system.

    The big question for America, is whether it can counter 3rd world naval systems. It can to some degree.
    But against a top flight power, America can forget it- in cost effective terms.

    Thats not to say that America does not have many powerful technologies and attributes in other areas of course.

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:39 pm

    The phalanx is the most worthless CIWS in existence since it constantly deactivates itself even without ECM interference(the USS Stark's CIWS proved useless because of this) and it's bullets are too small to cause rapidly enough damage to armored russian ASMs. As for the aegis meanwhile it cannot be exactly know if it's even minimally effective because it never has been realistically tested since it's adoption in service and even if it were it can't track more than 5-6 missiles and intercept more than 3. This means a US carrier group can get it's carrier destroyed by a wave of a few dozen onixes or kalibrs and in the near future by less than a dozen zircons.

    But by far the most idiotic thing in this article is the assumption that the US SAMs will never miss the incoming ASMs. IRL it will be extremely likely that a significant fraction of the incoming onyxes will repeatedly outmaneuver incoming SM-2s and others will only be damaged by the shrapnel due to being armored.

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:05 am

    There is one sure-fire 100% effective method for the USN to destroy Onyx/Brahmos missiles. Intercept them in their terminal flight stage with their warships bulkheads. Preferably a carrier as their tonnage allows them to soak up more damage.... Twisted Evil

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:12 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:The phalanx is the most worthless CIWS in existence since it constantly deactivates itself even without ECM interference(the USS Stark's CIWS proved useless because of this) and it's bullets are too small to cause rapidly enough damage to armored russian ASMs. As for the aegis meanwhile it cannot be exactly know if it's even minimally  effective because it never has been realistically tested since it's adoption in service and even if it were it can't track more than 5-6 missiles and intercept more than 3. This means a US carrier group can get it's carrier destroyed by a wave of a few dozen onixes or kalibrs and in the near future by less than a dozen zircons.

    But by far the most idiotic thing in this article is the assumption that the US SAMs will never miss the incoming ASMs. IRL it will be extremely likely that a significant fraction of the incoming onyxes will repeatedly outmaneuver incoming SM-2s and others will only be damaged by the shrapnel due to being armored.

    Two comments:

    Aegis - in 1988 it couldn't differentiate between Iran Air 655 and a strike fighter on an attack run...  I'm sure it has been improved since, but c'mon...  that was simply pathetic and a tremendous embarrassment.  It couldn't properly manage to control an engagement with a high-flying airliner, so how was it supposed to deal with incoming mach 3 SS-N-12/SS-N-19s?

    US SAMs for CIWS service are, if I am not mistaken,  VLS launched, which seems counterintuitive.  CIWS are by their nature required to be point-blank last-ditch defence, so why use a VLS when the missile wastes valuable reaction time to change its flight path to counter a target coming in at zero elevation?  Surely the Russian approach of fitting both rapid-fire cannon and short-range fast reaction missiles to a steerable monitor is a better solution?

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    How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:47 pm

    Indeed the country with the most experience with supersonic AShMs was the Soviet Union and while western ships had one or two Phalanx gun systems fitted, major soviet ships had 8 gatling mounts fitted plus kashtan mounts, and supporting short range SAMs like Klintok and OSA.


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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  max steel on Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:00 pm

    Supersonic ASMs are not worth the price. Huge IR sig and radar reflection from turbulent wake make it an easy target for modern ships defenses. Stealthy, subsonic is more effective, cheaper, stealthier in IR and RF by huge factors, can be carried in up to 8x quantity on aircraft (as opposed to one or 2 supersonics hung from bombers...a fighter can hold at most one).


    Navy SM-6 Kills Cruise Missiles Deep Inland


    Open the link and read Steve Forston , Charles Belle , James Jun comments. Your thoughts on their claims ?

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:19 pm

    max steel wrote:Supersonic ASMs are not worth the price. Huge IR sig and radar reflection from turbulent wake make it an easy target for modern ships defenses. Stealthy, subsonic is more effective, cheaper, stealthier in IR and RF by huge factors, can be carried in up to 8x quantity on aircraft (as opposed to one or 2 supersonics hung from bombers...a fighter can hold at most one).

    Navy Lacks Plan to Defend Against `Sizzler' Missile (Update1)


    BTW claims about Supersonic AShM's being bad, are similar to claims made about ERA, Autoloaders, Armata. Just look at Western media, they love to attack Russia's military cability, like T-14, in which is bad-mouthed to no end in Western media as being inferior to current Western tanks that are deployed...while simultaneously Western govts. (UK, Germany, France) are now forced to develop new MBT's to challenge T-14...Why would they waste money developing a new MBT if the current crop of Western MBT's are already better than the T-14 like the Western media likes to claim?

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  max steel on Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:33 pm

    Sea-RAM has successfully engaged Mach 2.5, sea skimming targets multiple times. The SM-6 will be able to as well, just because it engaged a slow target IN THIS TEST, doesn't mean that it can't engage high speed low targets as well. That's why it's called "envelope stretching".


    Coyote is a more difficult target to 'defend against' vs. Yakhont/Brahmos complex. ESSM, SM-6 and RIM-116 RAM are all able to intercept, and Russian Yakhont, while fast, is bigger and slower target in comparison to Coyote target missile. ESSM tests at SDTS resulted in successful intercept against sea skimming Vandal (going Mach 2+) making 10G horizontal weaving maneuvers.

    Really, the notion that Yakhont (or Brahmos, again same thing) can just easily penetrate SM-2/ESSM screen without even a tough fight being put up against is totally laughable.

    Lastly, the 'stealth' characteristics on Brahmos is just marketing bs. It seems weapons developers nowadays will call anything under a 1m^2 RCS as "stealth", when in reality, there is no difference in RCS between Yakhont and Brahmos. By this statue, Tomahawk would arithmetically qualify as extremely invisible stealth missile.

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  max steel on Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:45 pm

    mag the article you shared is from 2007 and usa made sm-6 in 2009 .

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:50 am

    Ugh, Max....

    First things first, "stealth" means nothing in regards to AShM's, at all. Sea-skimmers will not be detected by ship until they cross over the horizon, and "stealth" or not, they will ALWAYS be detected afterwards. Even aircraft radar systems can detect a 0.01 m2 target out to 90 or so km, the massive systems onboard ships are far more capable, and typically run at lower frequencies.

    What a surprise, a missile incepted something in a controlled test. Combat would be completely different, with no knowledge of an attack, and multiple missiles striking at once.

    Supersonic AShM's are practically immune to CIWS systems, have a better chance of surviving a AD attack, and have more energy behind them. The rather small warhead on Sea-RAM would have a hard time doing much to a missile with large amounts of energy behind it, AND late Soviet/Russian AShM's have basic armoring as well.

    And who knows how well an AD missile would perform engaging a target only a few meters over the sea.

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  max steel on Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:06 am

    Cant help mike , I am always interested in Naval Scenario .

    What I posted above are not my comments i just copy pasted best pro-us comments to know what is the truth behind it are they true or what they are saying is refutable. Thats why I asked you all to share your thoughts.


    What about coyote and russian bal coastal missiles can they be intercepted ? Bal uses kh-35 klub i guess.

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:35 am

    max steel wrote:Cant help mike , I am always interested in Naval Scenario .

    What I posted above are not my comments i just copy pasted best pro-us comments to know what is the truth  behind it are they true or what they are saying is refutable. Thats why I asked you all to share your thoughts.

    What about coyote and russian bal coastal missiles can they be intercepted ? Bal uses kh-35 klub i guess.
    Oh, that explains everything.  Razz

    Sorry for the mistake. 

    Bal would be an easy intercept; it is somewhat large, and very slow, AShM. Supposedly it can jam defense systems but I find that hard to believe.

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  max steel on Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:25 am

    Hard to believe what ? That it can be intercepted or it can jam the enemy defense ? I was watching Crimea's video and in the video it was claimed that bastion coastal missiles can shoot usa ddg. They figured out on radar that donald cook was approaching towards crimea bring it in tomahawk range but bastion already got a lock on donald cook and when donald cook realized it steered back in reverse towards romania with full speed.

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:20 pm

    Hahaha.... yeah Coyote target missiles so accurately replicate Soviet anti Ship missiles they spent millions trying to get the Russians to sell them some Moskits for target practise. They were disappointed to be offered Kh-31s which were still enormously more powerful than anything they already had and were bought and tested with under the code name M-31, and they learned the Phalanx was useless against supersonic sea skimmers.

    BTW SEARAM is a tiny missile with a small warhead compared with a 7 ton Granit or 4.5 ton Sunburn coming in at more than mach 2.

    It will be even worse with a zircon coming in at mach 6.

    The point is that if you could just fly any old supersonic drone and claim your ship is safe from supersonic threats then how did the British lose so many ships in the Falklands... on paper the Sea wolf can kill 114mm artillery shells... didn't always stop much larger and slow exocets... for lots of reasons.


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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:00 pm

    The LRASM; the US's latest anti-ship cruise missile - is really just another way of trying to accomplish what the Soviets/Russians have tried to do with their own ASMs; namely to minimize the enemy's reaction time and the window of opportunity for engaging the missile.

    It's just that the Americans are attempting to do with stealth, while the Russians have attempted to do this with speed.

    The Russian missile will be detected earlier than the American missile, but it will cover that distance quicker than the American missile. Thus on balance the enemy may well have a similar reaction time in both cases.

    It's still too early to tell but overall I think the Russian approach holds more advantages. For two main reasons:
    a). It will be easier and cheaper in the future to increase missile speed than it will to make it drastically more stealthy (Russia is already working on a hypersonic missile)
    b). Speed affords other advantages that stealth does not (less time for enemy CIWS to do their work, greater kinetic energy at impact and also making it harder to break the missile apart at close ranges)

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  max steel on Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:08 pm

    flamming_python wrote:The LRASM; the US's latest anti-ship cruise missile - is really just another way of trying to accomplish what the Soviets/Russians have tried to do with their own ASMs; namely to minimize the enemy's reaction time and the window of opportunity for engaging the missile.

    It's just that the Americans are attempting to do with stealth, while the Russians have attempted to do this with speed.

    The Russian missile will be detected earlier than the American missile, but it will cover that distance quicker than the American missile. Thus on balance the enemy may well have a similar reaction time in both cases.

    It's still too early to tell but overall I think the Russian approach holds more advantages. For two main reasons:
    a). It will be easier and cheaper in the future to increase missile speed than it will to make it drastically more stealthy (Russia is already working on a hypersonic missile)
    b). Speed affords other advantages that stealth does not (less time for enemy CIWS to do their work, greater kinetic energy at impact and also making it harder to break the missile apart at close ranges)


    LRASM isnt a problem for russian naval defenses i guess ? They made it to challenge china's navy who follows same ussr policy of sea denial . LRASM-B the supersonic project was terminated . Though LRASM-A has low RCS . I hope Russia has worked more on its sensor tech to improve the efficiency of interception .

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:53 am

    flamming_python wrote:The Russian missile will be detected earlier than the American missile, but it will cover that distance quicker than the American missile. Thus on balance the enemy may well have a similar reaction time in both cases.
    It's all about the horizon, my friend. No matter how some people will make it seem, the LRASM or or any supersonic AShM would be detected and identified.

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    Re: How The US Navy Will Shoot Down The Onyx/Brahmos

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