Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    KomissarBojanchev
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1442
    Points : 1603
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 22
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:40 pm

    kvs wrote:We still have not seen the final variant of the engine for the PAK-FA.   So it is obvious that the first batches will not have them
    and the plans never called for them to be deployed concurrently.    The engines require too much tech advancement (e.g. composites)
    for them to follow a similar schedule.   We should be happy if they are deployed in 2025.
    So the US propaganda about the definitive Su-57 model coming only around 2027 is true? This is why we shouldnt be happy.

    Also if the Su-57 is so much on the backburner, why do Russian air force officials always claim every year from 2015 onwards that the Su-57 will be in service "next year"?
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 3898
    Points : 3878
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:44 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    kvs wrote:We still have not seen the final variant of the engine for the PAK-FA.   So it is obvious that the first batches will not have them
    and the plans never called for them to be deployed concurrently.    The engines require too much tech advancement (e.g. composites)
    for them to follow a similar schedule.   We should be happy if they are deployed in 2025.
    So the US propaganda about the definitive Su-57 model coming only around 2027 is true? This is why we shouldnt be happy.

    Also if the Su-57 is so much on the backburner, why do Russian air force officials always claim every year from 2015 onwards that the Su-57 will be in service "next year"?

    I am tired of this forums and you fucking retards.  I really am.

    Learn to read, go back and start reading (if you can), and shut the fuck up already.

    Hurrr durrr....Its engine. It already has an engine. Aircraft can still fly and do its fucking job...hurrrrrr

    Maybe thats the language you may understand?
    Pierre Sprey
    Pierre Sprey

    Posts : 129
    Points : 137
    Join date : 2017-02-01

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:48 pm

    Kimppis wrote:First of all, shouldn't the Su-57 replace older planes. Russia doesn't have enough resources to train pilots now? They didn't realize any of that earlier and plan accordingly? As well, only some weeks or months ago you were still predicting around 60 would be ordered by around 2025, right? But now, all of a sudden, everything is very different?

    Yeah, I remember those production numbers for Su-35 and Su-34, but that was before 2012. So are we returning to the 90s now? This is 2018, there's just no excuse. It's clear they didn't want this, they didn't plan for this. Originally they very publicly announced a plan for around 60 Su-57s by 2020. You don't test the first protype in 2010, while starting the production properly 15 or 20 years later and act like everything is OK.

    So is the situation like this... They are simply unable to produce next generation equipment in numbers. This would also finally explain why Russian military procurement was going surprisingly well, despite it being quite behind in many technological indicators, like top 500 supercomputers, industrial robots, patents, etc. They can surely churn out upgraded Soviet designs, but when it comes to stuff like Su-57, Armata and potentially S-500, there are huge delays, nothing happens. And Ill admit right away that this is just me speculating, Im not saying any of that is exactly true and I don't want it to be, but right it doesn't look too good.  

    Of course certain people exaggerate the importance of stealth, but if its's so useless, then why design Su-57 at all. Not to mention other countries and their projects.  

    Weak, weak, weak. Fanboys and spin doctors (and I'm not talking about any particular posters here or anything like that) will just keep repeating how this another sign of Russian strength and how this doesn't matter, or whatever. I'd love to as well, to be perfectly honest, but I can't. Maybe it sounds like I'm overreacting or something, but I don't care.


    Its a good thing Russia doesn't have people like this running the country. Your flippant questions answer themselves. WW3 isn't starting anytime soon as you said. So what is more important ? Deals like this :

    http://indianexpress.com/article/business/economy/brics-summit-2016-rosneft-partners-buy-essar-oil-for-13-billion-in-largest-fdi-deal-3084527/

    In the largest inflow of foreign direct investment, Russia’s state-controlled oil giant Rosneft and its partners on Saturday took over India’s second biggest private oil firm Essar Oil in an all-cash deal valued at about USD 13 billion.

    https://seekingalpha.com/article/4112425-russia-continues-buy-gold-year-year-soon-5th-biggest-holder-worldwide
    Russia Continues To Buy Gold Year Over Year, Soon To Be 5th Biggest Holder Worldwide.

    Or should Russia splurge on its military projects instead ? And repeat the same mistake as the USSR and the USA today ?

    Russia has the framework of all of these projects in place (Armata, su 57, tu 160m2 ect) And they can speed them up just with money as needed.


    Pierre Sprey
    Pierre Sprey

    Posts : 129
    Points : 137
    Join date : 2017-02-01

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:58 pm

    [b][/b]
    Kimppis wrote:Again, personal insults are totally unnecessary.

    Yeah, as I said there's still some hope. None of that is 100% confirmed, but it doesn't look too great at the moment.

    And I don't want thousands of anything, just 12 Su-57s by the end 2020 and atleast around 60 by 2025. That is very far from thousands and it should be realistic, considering that the first prototype flew back in 2010.

    I know Chinese technology shouldn't be mentioned because it's just going to trigger some people on this forum. So I didn't J-20 specifically again. "That flying piece of shit is using all old Soviet technology but in a fancy airframe. That's reality of things." No, that's the exact opposite of reality. But I knew you would say something like that, atleast you admitted that the airframe is fancy, so that's something.

    But this is not about China. As I've said, there's really no need to compare Russia to China, I guess I shouldn't have done that in the first place. But the point is that the US and Russia are not the only countries designing such jets. And if any one these recent estimates on Su-57 are correct, there are some quite serious problems with the project.  

    And I'd love to believe that the US builds shit tons of aircraft that don't work. I really, really do. But it's obvious that that is largely wishful thinking. F-35 is certainly a flawed design. But there are going to be a huge number of them in service quite soon, and to that you can add Uncle Sam's vassals. Plus hundreds of 4.5th gen fighters and almost 200 F-22s. Again, this is about some 60 Su-57 in comparison, 15 years after the first prototype, nothing more.

    kvs wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:http://tass.com/defense/990172

    First batch in 2019 for Su-57 for RuAF.

    I remember all the BS back in 2010 about how production could not possibly start before 2020.   Now that the PAK-FA
    has been implemented without delays we have the haters moving their shrieking to total numbers of production.

    The only thing that matters is if the Su-57 is functional and not some work in progress like the F-35.   The point of
    having the first batch consist of a dozen aircraft is to keep on working out any kinks and not produce a big pile of junk.

    I think they originally promised around 60 by 2020. So how is that not a delay?  And if any of these recent predictions turn out to be correct, maybe a few dozen by 2025. If that is not a delay, then what is? Again, I'm not 100% sure that it will happen, I don't want it to and lastly, don't shoot the messenger.

    What the F are you talking about ? The J 20 is the Mig 1.44 with Raptor wings and F-35 intakes. The proper engine isn't even close to being ready, we only ever see 3 of them but its in service right ?

    Do you really think that the J-20 is a clean sheet design ?

    And for the F-35

    USAF Acknowledges Expanded Risk of Neck Damage to F-35 Pilots
    https://www.defensenews.com/.../usaf-acknowledges-expanded-risk-of-neck-damage-t...


    F-35 fighters grounded indefinitely over oxygen issues - CNNPolitics
    https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/12/politics/f-35...oxygen-problems/index.html

    And the F-22 (which is discontinued)

    From the anti Russian Business Insider

    The F-22 came face to face with Russia's top fighter and was at a major disadvantage.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/f-22-su-35-intercept-syria-us-major-disadvantage-2017-12


    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 4028
    Points : 4018
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:06 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    kvs wrote:We still have not seen the final variant of the engine for the PAK-FA.   So it is obvious that the first batches will not have them
    and the plans never called for them to be deployed concurrently.    The engines require too much tech advancement (e.g. composites)
    for them to follow a similar schedule.   We should be happy if they are deployed in 2025.
    So the US propaganda about the definitive Su-57 model coming only around 2027 is true? This is why we shouldnt be happy.

    Also if the Su-57 is so much on the backburner, why do Russian air force officials always claim every year from 2015 onwards that the Su-57 will be in service "next year"?

    I am tired of this forums and you fucking retards.  I really am.

    Learn to read, go back and start reading (if you can), and shut the fuck up already.

    Hurrr durrr....Its engine.  It already has an engine.  Aircraft can still fly and do its fucking job...hurrrrrr

    Maybe thats the language you may understand?

    If it has an engine, when will it get the second one ? In 2027 ? tongue
    Kimppis
    Kimppis

    Posts : 618
    Points : 618
    Join date : 2014-12-23

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Kimppis on Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:33 pm

    And how are energy deals, gold purchases and fighter procurement mutually exclusive? Stop making stupid excuses. Everything isn't totally fine. I repeat this, again: the first protype flew in 2010.

    So J-20 is somehow a copy of three different planes at the same time? In other words, it's not a copy at all? What will those Chinese untermenschen come up with next, huh? Competing fighters have similar features, no shit sherlock. I predict that the engine will be operational by 2025. But we'll see. We have only seen 3 my ass. Did I say that they have hundreds of them operational or something? It's been in LRIP since late 2015, so no shit there are going to be a few dozen of them at this point.

    Yeah, F-35 issues, never denied them. Very one-sided selection of articles, though. As I said: wishful thinking. Again, it's not like I don't WANT to believe that the F-35 is the worst thing ever.    

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:So the US propaganda about the definitive Su-57 model coming only around 2027 is true? This is why we shouldnt be happy.

    Also if the Su-57 is so much on the backburner, why do Russian air force officials always claim every year from 2015 onwards that the Su-57 will be in service "next year"?


    Well, something like that, possibly. Atleast you are ready to consider things that you don't want to be true. That's an achievement (and I'm serious).

    Su-57 was originally supposed to enter service in 2016. Then it was 2017, after that 2018 and finally 2019. I guess the 5th gen engine was never supposed to be ready before 2022-23.

    That's isn't the actual problem here, the problem is that 1. it might take (from 2017-19) until 2022-23 to get the first squadron (instead of 2020), and production might remain very slow until 2025-27. So those "experts" might have been onto something, yes.

    And then there's the Indian mess as well, because apparently they haven't placed any orders yet, who knows. So no, we shouldn't be particularly happy. But try to tell that to these guys. Rolling Eyes  (And no, I'm not saying that 1. anything is fullly confirmed or 2. that this a total disaster and the end of the world.)
    avatar
    Svyatoslavich

    Posts : 400
    Points : 401
    Join date : 2015-04-22
    Location : Buenos Aires

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:16 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Svyatoslavich wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    Azi wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:http://tass.com/defense/990172

    First batch in 2019 for Su-57 for RuAF.
    Will the first batch receive new engines?

    No.
    How do you know? I am not saying it will happen, but it is not impossible, as there aren't big structural modifications to change  from one engine to another, just look how the second prototype, built in 2010, became the first one to have an izdelye 30 engine.

    I'm not 100% certain but the engines we're only tested recently for it.  It would be rather very rushed if they have it in full production ready status now.  Usually they take their sweet time in this stuff.

    Plus I recall reading somewhere that first batch will be without new engines. Which isn't a real problem anyway.
    Ok, now I see what you mean. and you are right. But perhaps in 5 or more years these pre-series aircraft can be upgraded with the new engines, if they still have resources left.
    Pierre Sprey
    Pierre Sprey

    Posts : 129
    Points : 137
    Join date : 2017-02-01

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:32 am

    Kimppis wrote:And how are energy deals, gold purchases and fighter procurement mutually exclusive? Stop making stupid excuses. Everything isn't totally fine.
    kimppis wrote:I repeat this, again: the first protype flew in 2010.
    world.)

    kimiis wrote:And how are energy deals, gold purchases and fighter procurement mutually exclusive?

    Sorry I assumed you knew economics 101 and knew that money doesn't grow on trees. Russia is accumulating legacy assets all over the world and not incurring long term debt for it. How it gods earth could you not know that there is only a finite amount of money to go around ? Regardless. Its priorities. Because Russia is not lacking money. It has the 6th most foreign exchange reserves in the world, the 6th most gold and the 6th biggest GDP.

    kimppis wrote:I repeat this, again: the first protype flew in 2010.

    Ok lets compare to the Raptor.

    As per Wikipedia, on 23 April 1991, Secretary of the USAF Donald Rice announced the YF-22 as the winner of the ATF competition. In December 2005, the aircraft entered service. So basically 15 years from contract award to service.

    in 2002, Sukhoi was selected as the winner of the PAK FA competition. So if we go 2002+15 years we get 2017. The su 57 will have taken 1-2 years longer than the Raptor. So your trope about 2010 is bunk.

    But unlike the Raptor that is discontinued because it was poorly designed with flawed procurement, the su 57 is being designed to replace the su 27 family of aircraft. It will be around for a long long time and will end up with as storied of a history as the su 27.


    Pierre Sprey
    Pierre Sprey

    Posts : 129
    Points : 137
    Join date : 2017-02-01

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:55 am

    Kimppis wrote:So J-20 is somehow a copy of three different planes at the same time? In other words, it's not a copy at all?

    Of course it is a copy. It is the same length and width. And has the exact same engine spacing and location at the back.

    After Russia picked the Sukhoi in 2002,  China picked up the Mig 1.44 blueprints. China and India both had dibs on the FGFA deal. It was only after 2007, when India inked the FGFA deal, that China went full speed ahead with the Mig 1.44 in 2008. They claimed to have a fighter competition but they didn't really. There was no other flying prototypes. Since the Mig 1.44 flew in 2001, much of the design work was already done.

    And im not saying that it takes away from the jet or what the Chinese did. Its not easy to redesign a jet. It was a smart decision and a capable jet. But for China stronks and Anglophiles to use the J-20 as a dig against Russia is the epitome of hypocrisy. Its pure shit. Your take is pure shit.

    If we compare the F-22 (15 years development) and the Pak Fa (15+ years) then if China got the Mig 1.44 in 2003, then entering service in 2017 makes sense (14 years)


    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 5gside

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Mig-144_j-20
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 4028
    Points : 4018
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:12 am

    Pierre Sprey wrote:
    Kimppis wrote:So J-20 is somehow a copy of three different planes at the same time? In other words, it's not a copy at all?

    Of course it is a copy. It is the same length and width. And has the exact same engine spacing and location at the back.

    After Russia picked the Sukhoi in 2002,  China picked up the Mig 1.44 blueprints. China and India both had dibs on the FGFA deal. It was only after 2007, when India inked the FGFA deal, that China went full speed ahead with the Mig 1.44 in 2008. They claimed to have a fighter competition but they didn't really. There was no other flying prototypes. Since the Mig 1.44 flew in 2001, much of the design work was already done.

    And im not saying that it takes away from the jet or what the Chinese did. Its not easy to redesign a jet. It was a smart decision and a capable jet. But for China stronks and Anglophiles to use the J-20 as a dig against Russia is the epitome of hypocrisy. Its pure shit. Your take is pure shit.

    If we compare the F-22 (15 years development) and the Pak Fa (15+ years) then if China got the Mig 1.44 in 2003, then entering service in 2017 makes sense (14 years)


    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 5gside

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Mig-144_j-20


    It also looks like their J-10.
    Kimppis
    Kimppis

    Posts : 618
    Points : 618
    Join date : 2014-12-23

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Kimppis on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:46 am

    So it's both a copy (of multiple planes) and a redesign at the same? Kk. And the sideview shows very well why it's not a copy of MiG-1.44. There were also some earlier Chine projects, like the J-9, that looks quite a lot like the J-20. Not to mention that it's total BS that there there were no competing designs. One thing to keep in mind is that Chinese military is and especially was very secretive, very little transparency, very little public information compared to the US and post-Soviet Russia.

    The whole narrative is beyond stupid anyway. Those pesky Chinese are so amazing at copying that 1. both Russia and the US accuse China of copying, because they both feels so insecure about rising China, it's pathetic really (i.e. J-20 is somehow basically a copy of all the other competing 5th fighters at the same) and they manage to somehow become the second country with an operational 5th generation fighter. That is not how "copying" or whatever, works. I repeat: that is not how you become the second (!!!) country with an operational 5th generation fighter, it's totally ridiculous!

    Why didn't China similarly "just" copy other countries' 4th gen fighters back in the late 70s and early 80s? That is, why didn't they have one operational at the same time as the USSR, or even earlier? Just "copy" the F-15. Well, atleast you seem to give them some credit, so you seem to realize that today's China is very different from China of that era (many actually don't, and some of them are probably serious, it's the internet, after all), so whatever. Of course I know that they eventually copied the Flanker (although the newer variants feature Chinese sub-systems and even engines...), but it took them a lot longer than that, and after importing those fighters from Russia first.  

    No, Russia stronks simply can't accept that China is not that behind, or really at all, behind. Which I personally find a little bit weird, considering that Russian-Chinese relations are very good and the US in the main advesary of both countries. (I do understand why, though.)

    IMO, some people should face the obvious reality, accept that China has largely caught up with Russia and move on. That doesn't really take anything away from Russia. It was totally inevitable.

    Russian and American military fanboys have atleast one thing in common: they don't like the Chinese military and weapon systems, lol. Except me, supposedly, because I like both China and Russia. However, the difference is that China has an economy that can and will fully overtake the US in size and scope.

    But the fact that J-20 is operational doesn't take anything away from the Su-57 project, from the plane, either. I don't have doubts about its capabilities.. But the times when China was technologically behind other powers, when it was a third-world shithole are over, period. Most people seem to realize that to an extent, that it's inevitable, but it seems that their overall assessment is from 10 years ago or something. That is understandable, but it's a very long time when we're talking about China.


    =======================

    You might have a point when comparing F-22's timeline to Su-57. Kind of, maybe. But the actual F-22 prototypes flew later and the reason for those delays was the end of the Cold War. Russia was not that different during the 90s and early 2000s, except, of course, worse. But this is 2018. Also, the issue is not that it's supposedly going to enter service in 2019, but the possible delays all the way until the late 20s, very low production numbers until that. And the F-22 production was cut short because they believed in their own propaganda about the "New American Century".


    Last edited by Kimppis on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:59 am; edited 1 time in total
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 3898
    Points : 3878
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:51 am

    Theres a difference between building a jet ground up vs Making adjustments to an existing jet. It wouldn't take much to change designed a bit to the MiG-1.44. look at Jf-17 at first vs now. Even J-10 they made adjustments to the chassis.
    Pierre Sprey
    Pierre Sprey

    Posts : 129
    Points : 137
    Join date : 2017-02-01

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:53 am

    Isos wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:
    Kimppis wrote:So J-20 is somehow a copy of three different planes at the same time? In other words, it's not a copy at all?

    Fa (15+ years) then if China got the Mig 1.44 in 2003, then entering service in 2017 makes sense (14 years)


    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 5gside

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 0


    It also looks like their J-10.

    The single engine, single vertical stabilizer J-10 ? No actually.. It doesn't

    People just keep reaching. They just cant accept that Russia has always been better at military and aviation than China and always will be. Both countries have their talents. For Russia, aviation is one of them.

    China stronks are just dying to get their engines working. They just cant wait for the day that they can claim to not be powered by Russia. Its 2018 and still...powered by Russia

    Pierre Sprey
    Pierre Sprey

    Posts : 129
    Points : 137
    Join date : 2017-02-01

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:00 am

    Kimppis wrote:
    Why didn't China similarly "just" copy other countries' 4th gen fighters back in the late 70s and early 80s? .

    Lol like the J-11 ??? Or is that not a copy either ? dunno lol1
    Kimppis
    Kimppis

    Posts : 618
    Points : 618
    Join date : 2014-12-23

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Kimppis on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:06 am

    Nah, that was the case before, not anymore. Very simple. Aviation (and MIC in general) is not some kind of a special exception (of course they caught up in certain fields earlier than in others). Also that point regarding the Chinese engines is an exaggeration. They have hundreds of modern Flanker variants with Chinese engines and they have already tested a domestic (4th gen) engine on a J-20. China-bashers are in for another disappointment. But we'll see. And we can agree to disagree.

    Pierre Sprey wrote:
    Kimppis wrote:
    Why didn't China similarly "just" copy other countries' 4th gen fighters back in the late 70s and early 80s? .

    Lol like the J-11 ??? Or is that not a copy either ? dunno lol1

    Edited my post. The point was that it took them a lot longer, and after actually importing Flankers from Russia.
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 4028
    Points : 4018
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:26 am

    Pierre Sprey wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:
    Kimppis wrote:So J-20 is somehow a copy of three different planes at the same time? In other words, it's not a copy at all?

    Fa (15+ years) then if China got the Mig 1.44 in 2003, then entering service in 2017 makes sense (14 years)


    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 5gside

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 0


    It also looks like their J-10.

    The single engine, single vertical stabilizer J-10 ? No actually.. It doesn't

    People just keep reaching. They just cant accept that Russia has always been better at military and aviation than China and always will be. Both countries have their talents. For Russia, aviation is one of them.

    China stronks are just dying to get their engines working. They just cant wait for the day that they can claim to not be powered by Russia. Its 2018 and still...powered by Russia


    I meant j-10 looks like mig 1.44

    China is far behind russia and west in aviation. Nothing new. Just like in naval design. They kinda try to take the best from both russia and US and put everything togather to make their own design which the most stupid thing to do. I would never fight in their machines. It goes from US style aegis destroyer to j-31 f-35 copy. And I'm not talking about missiles which are as bad copies as fake chinese Iphones.

    For exemple they "successfully" copied s-300 so everyone was expecting their own s-400 but they bought s-400 from russia. Same with flanker series they had su-27/30/33 so you can assume they will stop their and go with their own fighter with its own engine but no they bought su-35 for its engine.

    We are also not aware of all the malfunctions about theur domestic designs because all we get are some nice pictures from their military. Just look at the history of russian engines bought in china that broke the second day. It was a small boat moreover. For bigger ones and for aviation it should be worst.
    Kimppis
    Kimppis

    Posts : 618
    Points : 618
    Join date : 2014-12-23

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Kimppis on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:44 am

    God, you people are so full of shit. Laughing Yeah, because other modern warships (including Russian ones) loook so different. Nice double standards. What the hell do you expect, them to look totally alien or something? It's really the most amazing thing... Throughout human history, competing weapon systems have often looked very similar. But whe we're talking about China, it's always their supernatural "copying" skills. How on earth can some of you keep believing that BS? Also, Turkey chose HQ-9 over S-300 and Patriot, before cancelling the whole thing for political reasons (before the coup), some Central Asian countries have ordered them over the Russian systems, IIRC, so yeah, that's how shit they are. Their S-400 order is going to be quite limited. (And AA is like the field where Russia is still the clear number 1, but even then, China is the clear number 2.) Their decision to buy 24 Su-35s was made before J-20 was ready, like years ago, they expected it to get delayed, didn't happen. Nothing else to it. The engines bought from China were not designed for those conditions, etc., etc. I can pretty much promise you: those Su-35 and S-400 purchases will be the last major ones they'll make (technically it's possible they might order some additional S-400s in a few years time, because they already have some, etc., but no new systems).  

    I could also use some Chinese fanboy arguments when it comes to the Su-35 and S-400 purchases (which I don't really agree with): Russian economy is so poor that they need Chinese money, that's why China is buying them. They also need Chinese political support, because they're isolated. How do you like that? The extremes on both sides are so full of shit.

    Let's move on from China, please. I'm done. This time for real, 100%. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 4883
    Points : 5006
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  kvs on Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:00 am

    1) Nobody has demonstrated any superiority in both design and deployment of Chinese stealth jets.

    2) Nobody has demonstrated any inferiority in the design and deployment of the PAK-FA wrt to US and China variants.

    3) The collection of PAK-FA bashers in this forum is literally trolling.
    avatar
    Svyatoslavich

    Posts : 400
    Points : 401
    Join date : 2015-04-22
    Location : Buenos Aires

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:20 am

    Pierre Sprey wrote:[
    As per Wikipedia, on 23 April 1991, Secretary of the USAF Donald Rice announced the YF-22 as the winner of the ATF competition. In December 2005, the aircraft entered service. So basically 15 years from contract award to service.

    in 2002, Sukhoi was selected as the winner of the PAK FA competition. So if we go 2002+15 years we get 2017. The su 57 will have taken  1-2 years longer than the Raptor. So your trope about 2010 is bunk.

    But unlike the Raptor that is discontinued because it was poorly designed with flawed procurement, the su 57 is being designed to replace the su 27 family of aircraft. It will be around for a long long time and will end up with as storied of a history as the su 27.


    Your argument is invalid because you are picking the latest date for the YF-22, and the earliest for the PAK FA, in order to say that the latter is taking longer. YF-22 first flew in 29th September 1990, and design began much earlier (ATF program was launched in 1984).
    Then we have very different projects and competition approaches between both countries that make comparison senseless. For example, YF-22 was declared a winner after it actually flew many times against its opponent, the YF-23; Sukhoi's PAK FA was selected 8 years before the actual prototype flew, and no rival design reached actual test flights.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 3898
    Points : 3878
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:23 am

    well, MiG-1.42 did have runway tests and what not. But that was shafted in 1994. Too bad too, cause Russia could have been fielding that aircraft right now.
    Pierre Sprey
    Pierre Sprey

    Posts : 129
    Points : 137
    Join date : 2017-02-01

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:48 am

    Kimppis wrote: Russian and American military fanboys have atleast one thing in common: they don't like the Chinese military and weapon systems,

    I didn't have time to address your other points in your big reply. But I will answer this..

    Russia fanboys have zero problems with Chinese stuff. The countries have very solid relations. Russia and China fanboys should be allies.

    The problem is, China fanboys are always the ones who get in on the digs against Russia with western fanboys. YOU are a perfect example. If you claim to be a fan of Russian stuff too then why do you talk so disrespectfully ? There is a way of criticizing stuff about the Russian programs without sounding like a western douchebag.

    Its because anti Russianism is just so popular. People just get caught up in it.

    Way more criticism and agitprop has been leveled against the su 57 by western fanboys than there has been against the J-20. Westerners actually seem to have a soft spot for the J-20. They use the freaking J-20 as a prop to further criticize the su 57. I don't even remember the last time I seen a hate filled hit piece against the J-20. Yet hate filled hit pieces against the su 57 is a cottage industry. Yet as everyone knows, China is the real world threat to the USA. Its GDP is already bigger.

    And for Russian fanboys its even more infuriating because China interchanges with Russian stuff so much. (engines, Flankers ect) I wouldn't even bother bringing up the Mig 1.44/J-20 comparison if China fanboys had any class.  But they don't.
    Pierre Sprey
    Pierre Sprey

    Posts : 129
    Points : 137
    Join date : 2017-02-01

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:05 am

    Svyatoslavich wrote:
    Pierre Sprey wrote:[
    As per Wikipedia, on 23 April 1991, Secretary of the USAF Donald Rice announced the YF-22 as the winner of the ATF competition. In December 2005, the aircraft entered service. So basically 15 years from contract award to service.

    in 2002, Sukhoi was selected as the winner of the PAK FA competition. So if we go 2002+15 years we get 2017. The su 57 will have taken  1-2 years longer than the Raptor. So your trope about 2010 is bunk.

    But unlike the Raptor that is discontinued because it was poorly designed with flawed procurement, the su 57 is being designed to replace the su 27 family of aircraft. It will be around for a long long time and will end up with as storied of a history as the su 27.


    Your argument is invalid because you are picking the latest date for the YF-22, and the earliest for the PAK FA, in order to say that the latter is taking longer. YF-22 first flew in 29th September 1990, and design began much earlier (ATF program was launched in 1984).
    Then we have very different projects and competition approaches between both countries that make comparison senseless. For example, YF-22 was declared a winner after it actually flew many times against its opponent, the YF-23; Sukhoi's PAK FA was selected 8 years before the actual prototype flew, and no rival design reached actual test flights.


    I looked at contract award until service. It was 2 points that I chose. If you want to choose different points go ahead. It doesn't make mine invalid. But how does pointing out that the Raptor was being worked on in the 80's already supposed to make the point im making less valid. It makes my point more valid no ?

    And the su 47 flew and was a prospective design and technology in it was used in the su 57. And the Mig 1.44 flew eventually in 2000 I think. Maybe the Chinese wanted to see it fly before they bought the blueprints.
    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible

    Posts : 3898
    Points : 3878
    Join date : 2016-11-06

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:43 am

    Pierre Sprey wrote:
    Kimppis wrote: Russian and American military fanboys have atleast one thing in common: they don't like the Chinese military and weapon systems,

    I didn't have time to address your other points in your big reply. But I will answer this..

    Russia fanboys have zero problems with Chinese stuff. The countries have very solid relations. Russia and China fanboys should be allies.

    The problem is, China fanboys are always the ones who get in on the digs against Russia with western fanboys. YOU are a perfect example. If you claim to be a fan of Russian stuff too then why do you talk so disrespectfully ? There is a way of criticizing stuff about the Russian programs without sounding like a western douchebag.

    Its because anti Russianism is just so popular. People just get caught up in it.

    Way more criticism and agitprop has been leveled against the su 57 by western fanboys than there has been against the J-20. Westerners actually seem to have a soft spot for the J-20. They use the freaking J-20 as a prop to further criticize the su 57. I don't even remember the last time I seen a hate filled hit piece against the J-20. Yet hate filled hit pieces against the su 57 is a cottage industry. Yet as everyone knows, China is the real world threat to the USA. Its GDP is already bigger.

    And for Russian fanboys its even more infuriating because China interchanges with Russian stuff so much. (engines, Flankers ect) I wouldn't even bother bringing up the Mig 1.44/J-20 comparison if China fanboys had any class.  But they don't.

    You put it great. Its easy to Trash the Su-57, even though it uses more modern engines (at least prototype) compared to the J-20. It uses a more advanced radar (we at least have proof that the Su-57 uses AESA, but hey, some people like to believe the J-20 has AESA so that is great too), it has all the sensors needed and demanded by every other 5th gen aircraft, etc etc. Heck, this is only a start too. What most don't realize is that the jet is also Russia's run into the 5th gen jet, and then onward. Its a line of jets that will replace the T-10 line and its all iterations. ROFAR radar is the next in line for advancement for the jet.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 22367
    Points : 22911
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:26 am

    So the US propaganda about the definitive Su-57 model coming only around 2027 is true? This is why we shouldnt be happy.

    By the same stupid logic the F-35 wont be ready for service until then either... is it still killing its pilots by suffocation because they haven't got something as basic and critical as an oxygen system right yet?

    Does it have all the shit that was promised for it?

    Laser weapons etc?

    The engines it will enter service are already powerful enough to give it better performance than any other aircraft currently flying... when the new more powerful engine is ready it will have even better performance even though over the next few years it might gain weight with extra equipment and systems.

    Also if the Su-57 is so much on the backburner,

    What are you talking about backburner for?

    The F-22 started development just after the Su-27 entered service... it took them 20 odd years to get their 5th gen fighter made.

    There would be no difference at all whether they have 500 in service tomorrow or 60 in service in 5 years.

    The F-14A had shit engines from the F-111 that were great for strike aircraft but shit for a fighter plane... it entered service in 1974... it didn't get decent engines until the F-14D model entered service in 1991... bitch about that why don't you?

    And how are energy deals, gold purchases and fighter procurement mutually exclusive? Stop making stupid excuses. Everything isn't totally fine. I repeat this, again: the first protype flew in 2010.

    There is a reason you don't put untested technology into new stuff... just because some fanbois on the internet want the Su-57 in service now doesn't mean the Russian military are stupid enough to spend a fortune just to make it happen.

    YOU ARE NOT GETTING A PONY FOR CHRISTMAS... JUST FUCKING DEAL WITH IT OK?

    And then there's the Indian mess as well, because apparently they haven't placed any orders yet, who knows. So no, we shouldn't be particularly happy. But try to tell that to these guys. Rolling Eyes (And no, I'm not saying that 1. anything is fullly confirmed or 2. that this a total disaster and the end of the world.)

    Who cares whether India buy planes or not... they are not buying Su-57s... they are codeveloping their own version of it... just like they did with the Su-30M to make the Su-30MKI... even if they signed it all right now it is going to take two decades for them to decide what French or Israeli crap they want to put in it... which is fine... it has nothing to do with the Russian Su-57.

    Sorry I assumed you knew economics 101 and knew that money doesn't grow on trees. Russia is accumulating legacy assets all over the world and not incurring long term debt for it. How it gods earth could you not know that there is only a finite amount of money to go around ? Regardless. Its priorities. Because Russia is not lacking money. It has the 6th most foreign exchange reserves in the world, the 6th most gold and the 6th biggest GDP.

    Don't be silly Pierre... these idiots want Russia to spend top dollar to get everything right now and in huge numbers so they can talk shit to the pro west loonies on the other forums they go to to hear the sky is falling... Russia could not possibly be sensible about things and invest in things that bring returns that help pay for stuff in the future... don't you get it... once they have thousands of Su-57s and Armata tanks and Husky submarines then they can start doing to the west what the US does to the west and they can be in charge... and just act like the US because that is what the world fucking needs... another spoilt rich brat telling everyone to follow the rules it ignores every day...

    So it's both a copy (of multiple planes) and a redesign at the same?

    They aren't stupid... my Chinese AK is a copy of the Soviet AKM, but it is not an exact copy. It is actually slightly improved but ironically in a way that is totally useless for me.

    The original AK has a few components that prevent the hammer from falling until the bolt carrier is fully closed... it is called a rate of fire reducer or hammer retarder in the west, but basically it is a hammer delay to stop the hammer from hitting the firing pin before the bolt carrier is fully forward and locked.

    On the Chinese copy, instead of those extra components it just has a triangle of metal sticking out the rear of the bolt carrier above the bolt so that until the bolt carrier is fully forward the hammer cannot hit the firing pin... simple, no extra parts but performs the job... very clever.

    Problem of course is that my AK is semi auto only so the chance of the gun firing out of battery is nonexistent...

    You might have a point when comparing F-22's timeline to Su-57. Kind of, maybe. But the actual F-22 prototypes flew later and the reason for those delays was the end of the Cold War. Russia was not that different during the 90s and early 2000s, except, of course, worse. But this is 2018. Also, the issue is not that it's supposedly going to enter service in 2019, but the possible delays all the way until the late 20s, very low production numbers until that. And the F-22 production was cut short because they believed in their own propaganda about the "New American Century".

    How dare you compare the worlds only superpower with a third world country with nukes... it will take Russia a hundred years to make their plane you peasant...

    China is far behind russia and west in aviation. Nothing new. Just like in naval design.

    There is nothing to be ashamed of for China... 30 years ago they rode bikes to work even in the big cities... now they have cars... but you really have to ask yourself if that is actually progress or consumerism...

    There are not that many countries that can make decent aircraft and rather fewer that can build decent engines for them...

    Its because anti Russianism is just so popular. People just get caught up in it.

    Russians today are the equivalent of gay niggers in the 60s... you can blame them for anything bad and it sticks because no one will defend gay niggers...

    And before you complain all the bad stuff I wrote in this post is because Russian Hackers did it...

    Way more criticism and agitprop has been leveled against the su 57 by western fanboys than there has been against the J-20. Westerners actually seem to have a soft spot for the J-20. They use the freaking J-20 as a prop to further criticize the su 57. I don't even remember the last time I seen a hate filled hit piece against the J-20. Yet hate filled hit pieces against the su 57 is a cottage industry. Yet as everyone knows, China is the real world threat to the USA. Its GDP is already bigger.

    Not because they like China... if they shit talk all their enemies how can they demand more money in the next budget for new stuff?

    And the su 47 flew and was a prospective design and technology in it was used in the su 57. And the Mig 1.44 flew eventually in 2000 I think. Maybe the Chinese wanted to see it fly before they bought the blueprints.

    The blueprints would not be for sale until it was clear it was never going to enter Russian service...

    How many other fighters have L band AESAs able to track stealth aircraft?
    Kimppis
    Kimppis

    Posts : 618
    Points : 618
    Join date : 2014-12-23

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Kimppis on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:28 pm

    Kvs: as I've said numerous times: I don't doubt the capabilities of the plane itself. And none of this "trolling", I'm actually just a little bit worried. We have to hope that these reports are not entirely true.

    Pierre Sprey:

    That is interesting, because my experience is very different. To me it seems that most Western fanboys atleast never call the Su-57 a copy of F-22 (although that does happen, atleast back when the first prototpe flew), they seem to give some credit to Russian MIC and its history. That said, I rarely read actual Western fanboy forums, my observations are mostly based on some "random" articles and internet comments. Although, now that I think about it, the delays have led to some ridiculous BS, like "they're going to only order 12 in total, ever".

    I mean, it's true that there's certainly much more anti-Russian than anti-Chinese propaganda, especially recently. That is certainly true, and I can sort of understand why many people here react so strongly when anything negative is said about Russia. It has gotten beyond ridiculous (can't be exaggerated) and in fact so bad, that I've mostly stopped reading Western MSM, including domestic news here. Not exactly wise, I suppose, but it has improved my mental health (no joke). On other hand, China is beginning to have some soft power in the US and in the West as a whole. The masses are beginning to like it more and more, while Trump is hated pretty much everywhere (thanks largely to Western MSM, funny how that works).

    I don't see how I've come across as disrespectful. That's was not my intention. IMO, most people here are very disrespectful (and uninformed) towards China and I had to reply. I guess I shouldn't have mentioned China at all, it's just going to trigger people here. But I had to make that comparison, it's valid. But yeah, enough of that.

    "Russia and China fanboys should be allies." That is my wish.

    Sponsored content

    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4 - Page 20 Empty Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:30 pm