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    PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

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    AMCXXL

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  AMCXXL on Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:11 am

    miketheterrible wrote:People forget a major factor here.  The pod would only work within a very short distance, like the other pods.  What this means is that by the ranges the PAK FA would be flying into with the pod to do air to ground operations, it wouldn't be too hard for the ground based assets to spot the Su-57 and shoot at it or shoot it down.  Ideally the pod would work better for bomb trucks like the Su-34 or Su-30.

    Main role of Su-57 is not to be a bomber
    For that job, Russia built the Su-34 and for mixed role the Su-30SM
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:30 am

    AMCXXL wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:People forget a major factor here.  The pod would only work within a very short distance, like the other pods.  What this means is that by the ranges the PAK FA would be flying into with the pod to do air to ground operations, it wouldn't be too hard for the ground based assets to spot the Su-57 and shoot at it or shoot it down.  Ideally the pod would work better for bomb trucks like the Su-34 or Su-30.

    Main role of Su-57 is not to be a bomber
    For that job, Russia built the Su-34 and for mixed role the Su-30SM

    thanks Sherlock. That's exactly what I just said.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:59 am

    blah blah blah bullshit bullshit bullshit.... On stable or marginally unstable designs that situations causes a pitch down moment which must be compensated by trimming the control surfaces to maintain level flight or larger control surface deflections to maneuver. The result is a considerable drag penalty at higher supersonic speeds and reduce maneuverability.

    Yeah... actually a load of rubbish.

    the basics are correct but the conclusion is bollocks.

    The Su-57 has thrust vectoring engines... it can position all its control surfaces to their lowest drag positions for minimum supersonic drag and use TVC engine nozzle angle to trim the aircraft flight angle so there would be zero drag penalty.... it is one of the other advantages of TVC for aircraft.

    What is bothering me is why go UV?

    Everything gives off IR radiation, but only flares and some other very hot materials also give off UV rays... high voltage electrics give off UV rays... high tension high energy power lines give off UV. I rather suspect they will be using QWIP CCDs so using UV and IR as well as visible frequencies is easy and can be more useful to get more information...

    I want to smash my head repeatedly against the wall. Does Su-57 have 2 fucking DIRCMs? or is this 101ks-0 simply talking about sensors in turrets and are those sensors using passive infrared detection. F-35 talks about using 6 infrared sensors EO DAS.....What is bothering me is why go UV? I believe that the SU-57 also has infrared sensors. Or is the ols-50m by passive detection meaning its using a 360 degree infrared coverage, is the 101-ks-o with 2 sensors covering top and bottom or just DIRCMs, or the SU-57 has no 360 degree infrared coverage period? IRSTs for su-35 and mig-35 cover 180 degrees and do have elevation mentions what about the ols-50m? Its ok if no one has an answer.

    It has one DIRCMs system that covers 360 degrees. The IRST it uses gives it targeting capacity in the upper hemisphere and front... the pod option gives it better ability to cover ground targets and would only be used in ground attack missions when the enemy aircraft are no longer the main threat.

    Targeting pods are cheaper than internal systems and can be replaced and updated more easily. You don't need one per aircraft.

    Being mounted on pylons they tend to be better for targeting ground based objects in front of or behind the aircraft and with fully rotating heads can cover much wider areas with optics and laser target markers/designators.

    People forget a major factor here. The pod would only work within a very short distance, like the other pods. What this means is that by the ranges the PAK FA would be flying into with the pod to do air to ground operations, it wouldn't be too hard for the ground based assets to spot the Su-57 and shoot at it or shoot it down. Ideally the pod would work better for bomb trucks like the Su-34 or Su-30.

    Long wave IR can detect targets comparable to the radar range of many 4th gen fighters and is totally passive. Pod mounted systems are more useful in the air to ground role... and to be honest the Gefest & T system seems to be rather more use than any targeting pod.

    The Su-57 can be used as a swing fighter bomber.... remember there are now land attack models of Onyx (Yakhont/Brahmos) and soon a version of Zircon will be available for land attack and anti ship roles that would be a rather potent weapon for Su-57s to carry...

    The Su-57 can also carry ARMs and other ground attack weapons like Kh-38, so it is intended for SEAD and other missions...


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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:33 pm

    But at those ranges, the Su-57 would be striking from afar, farther than what the targeting pod will be able to pick up anything at a reasonable distance. So in this case, I can see why the Pod is being showcased on older jets like MiG-29M's and Su-34's. Ideally, that is what said systems will be using. Su-30SM as well of course. Su-57 is more in line to being used to shoot off stand off missiles against AD systems, and for air to air engagement.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:52 pm

    Standoff range would be critical against air defence systems and major radar systems, but once they are dealt with ground targets can appear anywhere, meaning targets of opportunity at medium and short ranges.

    Taking out a bridge for instance...or armoured formation you just detected.

    Even if you don't attack the target a pod can allow you to take images and video with location information to pass to other platforms.

    ie it can be used as a recon pod too.


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    Tingsay

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Tingsay on Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:44 pm



    Izd 30 nozzles
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    JohninMK

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:17 pm

    Serious engineering!

    1st images of Izdeliye 30 turbofan/nozzle for #Sukhoi-57 photographed during Sergey Sobyanin's visit to "Salyut" Images via Higgs at paralay



    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMcZ4viXUAANhAy.jpg
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:29 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Serious engineering!

    1st images of Izdeliye 30 turbofan/nozzle for #Sukhoi-57 photographed during Sergey Sobyanin's visit to "Salyut" Images via Higgs at paralay



    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMcZ4viXUAANhAy.jpg

    Serrated edges. One more stealth feature not present in original frames. Once they add covers its will all fit nicely. thumbsup

    Just compare it to exhausts on stock engine:



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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:28 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Serious engineering! 1st images of Izdeliye 30 turbofan/nozzle for #Sukhoi-57 photographed during Sergey Sobyanin's visit to "Salyut" Images via Higgs at paralay

    But... but... but these engines weren't supposed to be ready until the mid-20s. US MSM and military "experts" said so.....
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:21 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Serious engineering!

    1st images of Izdeliye 30 turbofan/nozzle for #Sukhoi-57 photographed during Sergey Sobyanin's visit to "Salyut" Images via Higgs at paralay

    It's likely the nozzle for the Izd.30 being tested on a Al-31 or 117 engine...at least according to some discussions on the ru net.

    Looks pretty impressive cheers
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    Luq man

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Luq man on Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:49 pm


    Austin

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Austin on Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:06 pm

    So what is the engine with serated nozzle , what are they saying in Russian any thing interesting ?
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:00 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Serious engineering!

    1st images of Izdeliye 30 turbofan/nozzle for #Sukhoi-57 photographed during Sergey Sobyanin's visit to "Salyut" Images via Higgs at paralay



    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMcZ4viXUAANhAy.jpg

    Well. I wonder.

    The visit took place in Salyut plant. While izd-30 is supposedly built by Saturn. I say it's like demonstrator for the nozzle. Not the real Izd-30.
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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:53 am

    But Saturn don't make AL-31s so if it is mounted on a real engine and you are hardly going to mount it on a fake engine, then odds are it is the idz-30... why bother testing it on anything else?

    I am not saying it is the final service production idz-30 but they must have lots of prototypes of that engine by now to do all the testing they are supposed to be doing on it.


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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Cyberspec on Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:06 am

    Not sure if this qualifies as official confirmation but the Russian Embassy in Sth Africa has called it the Product 30 (Izd. 30) ...

    #Russia's Sukhoi Su-57 new generation second stage engine codenamed #Product30 was unveiled to the public for the first time
    https://twitter.com/EmbassyofRussia/status/921273764817620992

    Austin

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Austin on Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:19 am

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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:27 am

    The FGFA is an Indian aircraft that was a Russian design that India is paying to make to suit their needs.


    They want a two seat version... fine as long as they are prepared to pay for it.

    If they want a more stealthy model then that is fine too but expect to pay twice as much for every level of improvement in RCS... that does not come cheap.

    If they want it now stop fucking around and pay the money and stop quibbling about crap.

    If you think you can get a better engine from somewhere else by all means demand to use a different engine.

    But this is an Indian aircraft... if there is technology that the Russians like they might apply it to their own production models, just like land attack capabilities added to Brahmos that was never part of the Onyx or the export version Yakhont design were also added to the domestic Russian model of Onyx and likely also to Granit and other weapons too.

    The US wont even allow Britain to integrate their own weapons like Brimstone into the F-35, yet all India does is complain about this or that.

    the Pak FA will be created whether the FGFA is built or not... the FGFA will make the later models of PAK FA better and vice versa, but whatever.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:39 am

    Every one knows this strategy of talking BS to get things cheaper. Indian did the same with Rafales and for every military thing they buy.

    If they think that the 7 billion $ asked by Sukhoi is too much they should try to develop their own Fighter or get 5 or 6 F-35 for the same price hahahah
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:38 am

    India is incapable of building a Su-57 class fighter without having the Russians to show them how and carry them to the finish line. If they don't want to pony up then to heck with them. Indians are renown for complaining endlessly over every last rupee and demanding extras for no cost variation, but they think this will work for the FGFA they have rocks in their head.
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    Isos

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Isos on Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:50 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:India is incapable of building a Su-57 class fighter without having the Russians to show them how and carry them to the finish line.  If they don't want to pony up then to heck with them.  Indians are renown for complaining endlessly over every last rupee and demanding extras for no cost variation, but they think this will work for the FGFA they have rocks in their head.

    The situation is getting worse every day. They won't have all the rafales they want, China is already introducing its 5 gen fighter with Pakistan, their Tejas is BS, they want the old F-16 while China has probably all the information about this Aircraft since long time ago ...

    They should invest more and faster ino FGFA instead of trying to save money. At the end they will buy Pak Fa directly to Russia and won't be able to make profit by producing their own fighters like it is the case with the Rafale.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Austin on Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:04 pm

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    GarryB

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:27 am

    So they want a custom made 5th gen fighter and the rights to produce it on the cheap....

    The question is, do they want their cake and to eat it too.

    They say there are 40 changes they want to make to the design... but they also say the aircraft is too expensive already.

    My experience in getting stuff custom made is that when you ask for extra changes it actually gets more expensive... not less expensive.

    When you ask for a stealthy aircraft to be made more stealthy that normally adds a naught to the end of the price.... ie makes it ten times more expensive.

    The longer they leave it the more it will cost and i doubt any alternative offers will be better.... the F-35 costs rather more and they would have no say in the design let alone the ability to ask for changes...


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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:11 am


    How many times does the western defense media have to repeat the same garbage about the FGFA deal ? Its the same story EVERY time. This is politics. There's some obscure unofficial voices inside the IAF making these claims and passing them to the western defense media.

    Then some headlines from official sources will come out on progress of the deal. Then there will be no talk for 5 months. Then the whole process starts over again.

    From 2014

    https://www.defenceaviation.com/2014...ak-fafgfa.html
    Indian Air Force not happy with Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA/FGFA

    ^ See ? same old BS
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:15 am

    GarryB wrote:The FGFA is an Indian aircraft that was a Russian design that India is paying to make to suit their needs.


    They want a two seat version... fine as long as they are prepared to pay for it.

    If they want a more stealthy model then that is fine too but expect to pay twice as much for every level of improvement in RCS... that does not come cheap.

    Nothing about these reports are true. The IAF doesn't even have the actual specs that its commenting on. There is no "40 improvements" There are a few things that India wants done specific to its needs. Like a 2 seater. These needs were all spelled out in 2007.

    Its sure f*cking funny that India is telling Russia how to improve a fighter jet. But its not. This is a political witchhunt.

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

    Post  Austin on Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:14 am

    Interview with Chief Test Pilot PAK-FA Sergey Bogdan

    https://www.popmech.ru/weapon/392902-rossiyskiy-istrebitel-5-go-pokoleniya-luchshiy-v-mire/

    What are the features of the fifth-generation fighter in comparison with the cars of previous generations? The best thing about this can be told by one who had the opportunity to make a comparison on personal experience, the honored test pilot of the Russian Federation, the hero of Russia Sergey Bogdan, the first who lifted the T-50 into the air and performed the bulk of the tests on this car.


    What is the fundamental difference between the fifth and fourth generation fighters from the point of view of piloting?


    Compared to the 4th generation aircraft, such as the Su-27 or the MiG-29, the T-50 has a noticeably light control. Earlier in the piloting of combat aircraft very much depended on the pilot. It was the pilot, working with the control knob, the engine control lever (ODR), had to withstand the flight modes: do not exceed the dangerous angle of attack, overload. In those days, the load on the controls and the amount of deviation of the handles were of fundamental importance. The pilot kinesthetically, literally the whole body could feel the limits for which he can not move in management. Now the integrated control system automatically maintains these modes, and there is no need to "tighten" the controls so much, because with the energetic maneuvering that can be performed by the 5th generation aircraft, piloting can turn into a very energy-intensive process. It should be noted that on the Russian fighters of the generation 4 ++ (Su-35) and 4+ (Su-30SM), efforts on the controls were already significantly reduced compared to the Su-27 and piloting became much more comfortable. Externally, the Su-35 is virtually indistinguishable from the Su-27. In fact, these are radically different planes, both for handling, for maneuverability, and for many other indicators. But when the pilots mastered the Su-35, they easily retrained and gave the car only enthusiastic evaluation. There is no reason to believe that the transition to the T-50 in terms of piloting will be more difficult. In fact, these are radically different planes, both for handling, for maneuverability, and for many other indicators. But when the pilots mastered the Su-35, they easily retrained and gave the car only enthusiastic evaluation. There is no reason to believe that the transition to the T-50 in terms of piloting will be more difficult. In fact, these are radically different planes, both for handling, for maneuverability, and for many other indicators. But when the pilots mastered the Su-35, they easily retrained and gave the car only enthusiastic evaluation. There is no reason to believe that the transition to the T-50 in terms of piloting will be more difficult.


    And if we talk about the physical condition of the pilots - do we need additional training to switch to the T-50?


    Yes, the requirements for physical training for pilots of cars of the 5th generation are higher. The fact is that the 4th generation aircraft could go into 9 g overload, but this peak regime lasted no more than 1-1.5 s. Further, with such an overload, the drag increased sharply, the speed of the aircraft fell, and with it the overload. However, the 4+ and 5 generation fighters have significantly more powerful engines, and as a result can withstand 9 g for a much longer time - for example, for one or two minutes. And all this time interval the pilot should be in a tonus and supervise a situation. Here, of course, physical training requires a very serious attitude.

    The 5th generation is a new functionality, new weapons systems. Will it be more difficult for a pilot to manage all these systems?


    Yes, the load on the pilot as an operator grows significantly. The nomenclature of armament of the 4th generation aircraft did not exceed the ten. The pilot was required to master three operations: work on land, work on air-guided weapons (several types of missiles) and work by air uncontrolled means (shooting from a cannon). The T-50 armament nomenclature is approaching half a hundred completely different means with different principles of guidance. Weapons with television guidance, radar sighting for sea and land targets ... Each type of weapon has its own information support, its indicators. And that's not all - the pilot can still manage a whole group of aircraft. While conducting his battle, he must distribute tasks for subordinate crews.

    It was necessary to develop such algorithms for issuing information, so that the pilot read it unerringly and made competent decisions. Only the work of scientists from the Institute of Space Medicine together with designers, test pilots, military pilots led to the fact that the algorithms were optimized, the control field became non-conflicting. But still the load on the pilot lies colossal. Therefore, on the aircraft of new generations the task of piloting is generally secondary. While performing the aiming, the pilot can be distracted from piloting, throwing the control stick even with the autopilot off. The aircraft's automation "knows" that the car is not controlled, and if the fighter is, for example, in the roll and fall mode, the aircraft itself removes the roll and goes into a horizontal flight. The main thing is gun control.


    Is it true that combat aircraft of future generations will be unmanned?


    The pilot does not exist to heroize and receive rewards. Its main function is the performance of the combat mission. If this or that combat mission can be performed without human intervention, then the pilot will be replaced by the automatic system, especially since the manned aircraft is by definition more expensive than the drones, and it is impossible to risk the life of a highly qualified pilot without special need. Another thing is that the transition to unmanned combat aircraft will not happen simultaneously. The UAV will gradually transfer certain functions (reconnaissance, reconnaissance, strikes). At first, mixed groups will fight in the sky. The pilot in the manned aircraft will manage the UAV group, set them tasks. Recall that at first people hunted without help, drove the beast on their own, but then they tamed the dogs, and the dogs were given functions, associated with the greatest risk. This will also happen in combat aviation, until the artificial intelligence finally dislodges the person, and the pilot does not turn into a ground operator.

    Sky. Human. Fighter


    The operation of multifunctional fighters (MFIs) of the 5th generation puts a person in conditions of a prohibitive level of overloads - physical, psychological, information. No wonder they say that the MFI will be the last manned plane of this class. Then follow even more abrupt aircraft, in which the person will be unsafe, and simply contraindicated.

    The 5th Generation MFI is conceived and implemented as a "network soldier" of the C4I system (Computers, Command, Control, Communications, Intelligence). In essence, C4I is a global system of coordinated group actions, but in it, despite intellectual computer technologies, the main decisive link remains a man: he has to understand the situation, make decisions and himself to execute them.

    And this is in the conditions of not only outrageous information, but also physical, and psychological loads, too. Overloading at 10 g becomes the usual maneuvering mode. The plane sometimes takes unusual spatial positions: it is even capable of hovering in the sky. This also includes lateral overloads during lateral flat maneuvers, which they have not encountered before. All these new phenomena began to be observed in aviation after the aircraft received a system of all-vector control of the thrust vector of the engine - UHT, from which it acquired a new quality of the super maneuverable "wobbly", in English terminology (agility), aircraft. And on agility-planes only "agile" agility pilots can fly.

    The solution is an effective interactive anthropocentric interface. It should provide the pilot with an opportunity to cope with the surrounding extreme when staying in a state of psychological stress and working with prohibitive amounts of information with a time deficit become commonplace for the person sitting in the cab.

    The cabin of a fighter of generation 5 is a "glass cabin", similar to the cabins of many modern aircraft. But its information-control field (FTI) refers to a new type. Instead of a set of multifunctional indicators, it uses a single touch-screen interactive screen that occupies the entire front instrument panel of the cabin.

    All the necessary information from the on-board avionics, as well as video information from the on-board sensors, supplemented with sighting and flight symbols, is displayed on the information windows of this screen. Working with the screen facilitates the presentation of information in color "picture" formats that are understandable and visible to the person and clearly perceived quickly. The large screen size, which is 500 x 200 mm in F-35 and 610 x 230 mm in Su-35S and T-50, is easily covered by a sight at a standard observation distance of 500-700 mm. Support for binocularity and high definition images contribute to the creation of a well-known on-home HD-TV presence in the event.

    The latter is very important for the pilot as the head of the network task, and not just as an operator with on-board sensors. That is why all information is displayed on the screen in a pre-processed form and appears only at the right moments, which is convenient for a person and significantly increases the timely situational awareness. A special place in the IUP of the cabin is the helmeted target designation and indication system (NSCI), which also places the pilot inside the event.

    All the necessary information in easy-to-use binocular forms is displayed on the helmet visor and always, despite the head turns, is in front of the pilot's eyes, for which the position of his head is constantly monitored. The helmet has a function of augmented reality, so the pilot can see through the cockpit and be more informed about what is happening around the aircraft.

    Such helmets are already on the heads of the F-35 pilots - this is the HMDS Gen II "God's Eye" of the American company VSI. And soon they will be and at the European pilots: the helmet Striker II is made by the British company BAE Systems. Similar developments are being carried out for our Su-35S and T-50.


    Features of the impact on the body of the pilot MFI 5-th generation


    Slip and sharp acceleration and braking at large angles of attack cause new, previously unknown illusions, leading to disorientation, discomfort and nausea.

    Maneuvering with an overload of 10 g leads to a loss of spatial orientation and the appearance of visual-vestibular illusions in the perception of the quarian space: the overload unconventionally affects the vestibular apparatus, and in response it forms sensations of the apparent vertical. The innate mechanism of spatial orientation ceases to work.

    Flight with high congestion is aggravated by concomitant problems: impairment of visual functions, injuries to the muscles of the back, ligaments and vertebrae, physical discomfort and pain.

    The shortage of time in high-speed battles with instantaneous transitions from one spatial state to another causes, as pilots say, a feeling when "you feel rather than understand what is happening", which is also a new psychological phenomenon.

    The speediness of air combat can cause sensations of cognitive dissonance when working with high-dynamic formats of cabin displays up to loss of information contact with them.

    Conducting combat in compressed airspace with sharp changes in the angular velocities of the line of sight of the target requires intense head turns in the helmet with an aiming system, from which there are additional illusions of diving, kicking and heeling depending on the movements of the head.

    The added reality on the helmet shield, allowing to see "through the cabin", causes the illusion of an independent flight outside the aircraft, which makes it difficult to work with cabin controls.

    Oleg Makarov Oleg Titkov

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    Re: PAK-FA, T-50: News #4

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      Current date/time is Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:35 pm