Project 1164 Atlant: Slava Class cruiser

franco wrote:The cruiser Moskva sank

FULL ARTICLE: offers different scenarios plus has a message at the ending

https://topwar-ru.translate.goog/194963-krejser-moskva-zatonul.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

The one theory that the ship could have been sunk by a Norwegian Penguin missile is just silly. The missile doesn't have the legs to have reached the Moskva. It's also a very "lightweight" missile that is unlikely to sink anything larger than a small frigate.

One positive thing that may come as a result of this tragedy is that the Navy will finally get the attention that they deserve!

Podlodka77 wrote:

marat wrote:

runaway wrote:

marat wrote:


Ok you win, Superetendard was bad but Argentina then had excellent naval commanders. Totally opposite then, i don't know, Russian navy?  They just managed to do the impossible, they lost their major ship. Biggest naval defeat in last 40 years or more. Well boy, i bet you are very proud of this staggering achievement of the extremely capable and competent Russian navy.

It was just a matter of time when  USA shall be blamed for this disaster that RuN had. Maybe you should considered to made some self-evaluations inside Russian Navy.

Hey crybaby its a war going on, chili
Losses can and will happen, get over it.
This forum is about the ship, Slava class. Obviously she was outdated and perhaps should not been active in a high tech war.
Lets see what the causes for her sinking was, a missile or a ammunition explosion.
Both are really bad...

No, losses of the major ship are not things that just happen. They are extremely rare. If she was outdated why did they send her in a mission? I will repeat my question if 2 days ago somebody tell that Ukr will sunk Moscow you would declare such a person an idiot. And Russians managed to lost that ship.

I'm sorry, but are you either stupid or what? The Germans lost Bismarck before they enslaved half of Europe ??? And that same "Bismarck" was at that time considered the most powerful warship in the world, a completely new and "steel cathedral", as the Germans liked to call it.

If you want to compare losing of Bizmark in WW2 against British navy and losing Moscow in 2022, then it looks that you are stupid, not me.

Before being lost, Bizmark, and Prinze Eugen were attacked by 4 battleships and battlecruisers, 2 aircraftcarriers, at least 3 heavy cruisers, plus destroyers.

Even being much weaker Bizmark managed to sink the British battlecruiser Hood and damaged the battleship Prince of Wales.

He was attacked for several days by a far stronger enemy and managed to sink one and damage another capital ship. That was the result of the action of one serious and competent navy.

Tell me. Has Moscow sunk some Ukrainian Cruiser and was attacked by a stronger enemy for days?

If so, please forgive me, them Moscow is ship hero and Russian navy is competent.

But as far i know that was not the case.

Isos wrote:Let's just stop with the Moskva. No one on the net actually knows what happened. Even the US don't say it was a ukrainian attack.

Ukraine says it had a TB2 around her so if they really did destroy it they will provide images. It's been 2 days and we saw nothing. US also sent a drone there and again nothing.

Missile attack could have happen but so does the incident during a storm. No one knows.

Well what we know is that the ship has been in a major incident that resultet with it sinking.
Thats basicly unheard of in naval warfare after WW2. Maybe 1 or 2 ships in the last 50 years.

Mir wrote:  

There were three major US carrier accidents during the 60's and were all in danger of being lost.
USS Oriskany (CV 34), 27 October 1966
USS Forrestal (CV 59), 29 July 1967
USS Enterprise (CVAN 65), January 14, 1969

Side note: The Burke class destroyer was developed from the Ticoderoga cruisers, which in turn was developed from the Spraunce class destroyers. Point is the Burkes are more powerful ships than the Ticonderoga cruisers.

Anyway it does seem that you suffer from Selective Mental Memory Loss Syndrome (SMMLS). For some reason it is a very common phenomena in the US and most parts of the western side of Europe.

USS Richard Bonnhomme ICYMI


Here is some more proof >>

Air carrier incidents are 60 years old, if you want to involve 20th-century naval history in this conversation we can. Where you want to start? Maybee with Novorossijsk disaster in 1955. It happened just 10 years before the aircraft carriers disaster that you have mentioned so those events are contemporaries ( which cannot be said for those US incidents and Moscow sinkings)  In it Russia LOST ship, and 608 sailors, vs 206 that the USA lost in all three aircraft incidents that you have posted.

I could mention some war with Japan.


Bonhomme was not sunk in war, and during that fire, nobody died, if you want to talk about peacetime naval disasters please do, the Russian navy is far more "successful" in that "sport" than any other navy in the world. In the last 30 years, Russia lost more sailors and major ships in disasters than all other navies together.

And again why do you think that insults will make you look smarter and that your points are valid if you insult others? In adults conversation, insults are shoving just one thing: the frustration of the insulter. As you could notice my memory of the naval disaster is quite good, and that is exactly the reason why i point out that the Moscow sinking is proof of the total incompetence of the Russian navy.

And try to understand, your attitude, which you and most others i believe Russian members have in this forum, and in this topic is exactly the reasons why you have more disasters ( not just naval) than others. I do not know why, but you cannot stand facts and responsibility. When something bad happens you immediately take positions: 1) well shit happens, in the USA 65 years ago xyz happened, so what????. 2) it is USA or NATO fault, 3) you are an idiot.

If you would just try to find your own responsibility and to take criticism, you would improve yourself.

Dear Moderators, and Members,

There is notification Expected Behaviour posted by Garry, about personal abuse it was stated that calling people trolls for voicing a different opinion etc will not be tolerated.

Message from Vlad79:

The lack of respect on this forum for its members has gotten out of control. I don't want F bombs, calling people trolls for voicing an opinion whether it is pro-West or not. You can say what you want but attacks against the forum or its members and especially the staff will not be tolerated. If this board ends up just being Pro-Russian it is dead, alternative views will be tolerated and the people treated with respect just as you want to be.

But it seems that that is not the case?

walle83 wrote:
Well what we know is that the ship has been in a major incident that resultet with it sinking.
Thats basicly unheard of in naval warfare after WW2. Maybe 1 or 2 ships in the last 50 years.

Even the Chinese suffered a major disaster when they lost all the crew (70) on board a Ming class submarine in 2003. Some fishermen were extremely lucky to have found the sub with only it's periscope sticking out! Argentina lost a sub and it's entire crew recently and Norway also lost a "state of the art" frigate - just from the top of my mind.

[quote="marat"]Dear Moderators, and Members,

There is notification Expected Behaviour posted by Garry, about personal abuse it was stated that calling people trolls for voicing a different opinion etc will not be tolerated.

Message from Vlad79:

The lack of respect on this forum for its members has gotten out of control. I don't want F bombs, calling people trolls for voicing an opinion whether it is pro-West or not. You can say what you want but attacks against the forum or its members and especially the staff will not be tolerated. If this board ends up just being Pro-Russian it is dead, alternative views will be tolerated and the people treated with respect just as you want to be.

And that is exactly why you are still here, but if you want to dish up shit then you should be able to take the shit that's coming towards you. So stop being a cry baby.

marat wrote:
In it Russia LOST ship, and 608 sailors, vs 206 that the USA lost in all three aircraft incidents that you have posted.

History is there to teach people valuable lessons but you can add 230 US sailors to that list that was lost in two nuclear subs that went down. You can also add 55 lives from the Stark and Cole incidents and 47 that died from the turret that exploded on the Iowa - and the list goes on...

Since the US has practically been at war since it's inception (with a couple of war free days) these losses count as under war conditions in my book.

Mir wrote:

marat wrote:Dear Moderators, and Members,

There is notification Expected Behaviour posted by Garry, about personal abuse it was stated that calling people trolls for voicing a different opinion etc will not be tolerated.

Message from Vlad79:

The lack of respect on this forum for its members has gotten out of control. I don't want F bombs, calling people trolls for voicing an opinion whether it is pro-West or not. You can say what you want but attacks against the forum or its members and especially the staff will not be tolerated. If this board ends up just being Pro-Russian it is dead, alternative views will be tolerated and the people treated with respect just as you want to be.

And that is exactly why you are still here, but if you want to dish up shit then you should be able to take the shit that's coming towards you. So stop being a cry baby.

Sonny boy, please grown up and learn to use pants.

No sonny boy you are the one in diapers!

Mir wrote:

marat wrote:
In it Russia LOST ship, and 608 sailors, vs 206 that the USA lost in all three aircraft incidents that you have posted.

History is there to teach people valuable lessons but you can add 230 US sailors to that list that was lost in two nuclear subs that went down. You can also add 55 lives from the Stark and Cole incidents and 47 that died from the turret that exploded on the Iowa - and the list goes on...

Since the US has practically been at war since it's inception (with a couple of war free days) these losses count as under war conditions in my book.

And on Russian side then we could add>

1. Losharik 14 killed
2. Kursk 118 killed
3. K 129  98 killed
4. K 278 42 killed
5. k 431 10 killed
6. K 56 27 killed
7. K 131 13 killed
8. K 159 9 killed
9. K 8 52 killed
10. K 19 8 killed
11. K 429 14 killed
12. Musson 39 killed
13. K 219 4?

It seems that Russia won this game, dont you think? Or your lost of memory is in terminal stage today?

marat wrote:
It seems that Russia won this game, dont you think? Or your lost of memory is in terminal stage today?

At least try something original - it's getting boring.

Mir wrote:

marat wrote:
It seems that Russia won this game, dont you think? Or your lost of memory is in terminal stage today?

At least try something original - it's getting boring.

Truth is the most original thing, but i understood that you prefer something "more original than truth".

Maybe you could try Disney? You may like it. There are flying elephants, Cinderella, ice castles, talking dogs, maybe you could find some movie in which Russia has a competent navy?

This is how we started our conversation today with you saying >>

I am also hard core Russian supporter and Russophile, but that doesn't make me blind.

Yeh right!

Straight from The Empire of Lies playbook so please don't try and lecture me about your "truth"

walle83 wrote:

Isos wrote:Let's just stop with the Moskva. No one on the net actually knows what happened. Even the US don't say it was a ukrainian attack.

Ukraine says it had a TB2 around her so if they really did destroy it they will provide images. It's been 2 days and we saw nothing. US also sent a drone there and again nothing.

Missile attack could have happen but so does the incident during a storm. No one knows.

Well what we know is that the ship has been in a major incident that resultet with it sinking.
Thats basicly unheard of in naval warfare after WW2. Maybe 1 or 2 ships in the last 50 years.

Lol no.

South korea got a corvette torpedoed and sunk. Israeli got a destroyer sunk and numerous arab and israeli ships got sunk in their wars. Pakistani lost numerous big ships to indian missiles. UK lost major ships in Malvinas war just like Argentina lost a big cruiser with hundreds of sailor. US lost a ship after it was bombed for hours by Israel. Israeli ship got hit by hezbollah missile while carrying best israeli AD at the time. US ship got hit by exocet. Plenty of subs went at the bottom of the ocean with their crew.

The amount of ship lost since WW2 would be closer to 100 than 1 or 2 like you say.

Loss of Moskva is a tragedy and I hope they somehow save her to make her a museum but loosing a ship isn't exeptional.

Mir wrote:This is how we started our conversation today with you saying >>

I am also hard core Russian supporter and Russophile, but that doesn't make me blind.

Yeh right!

Straight from The Empire of Lies playbook so please don't try and lecture me about your "truth"

if you read carefully you may understand, i am a Russophile, but i am not blind.

Being Russophile means that you love Russia, and if you love Russia you hate when Russians become so incompetent that even Ukraina manage to destroy their capital ship.

Being a Russophile do not mean that i will behave like a moron and try to underestimate Russian errors, quite acontrary. Friends always tell truth one to another no matter how painful that truth is.

Isos wrote:

walle83 wrote:

Isos wrote:Let's just stop with the Moskva. No one on the net actually knows what happened. Even the US don't say it was a ukrainian attack.

Ukraine says it had a TB2 around her so if they really did destroy it they will provide images. It's been 2 days and we saw nothing. US also sent a drone there and again nothing.

Missile attack could have happen but so does the incident during a storm. No one knows.

Well what we know is that the ship has been in a major incident that resultet with it sinking.
Thats basicly unheard of in naval warfare after WW2. Maybe 1 or 2 ships in the last 50 years.

Lol no.

South korea got a corvette torpedoed and sunk. Israeli got a destroyer sunk and numerous arab and israeli ships got sunk in their wars. Pakistani lost numerous big ships to indian missiles. UK lost major ships in Malvinas war just like Argentina lost a big cruiser with hundreds of sailor. US lost a ship after it was bombed for hours by Israel. Israeli ship got hit by hezbollah missile while carrying best israeli AD at the time. US ship got hit by exocet. Plenty of subs went at the bottom of the ocean with their crew.

The amount of ship lost since WW2 would be closer to 100 than 1 or 2 like you say.

Loss of Moskva is a tragedy and I hope they somehow save her to make her a museum but loosing a ship isn't exeptional.

In last 50 years

He is right, this is the most important naval defeat in the last 50 years.
S. Korea lost 1.200 tonnes frigate, and Russia lost 10X bigger ships.

The Falkland war was the place where he set the border, we are talking about events in the last 50 years so after Falkland. India Pakistan war also was before that and Pakistan didn't lose Cruiser. Russians did. Israel's ship was hit but not sunk, and again it was a corvette, not a cruiser.

Iran and Libya lost some 1100-1900 tonnes frigates against the world's best navy, but only Russians lost Cruiser against Ukraina.
The Liberty incident wasn't an event in the last 50 years. And that ship survived even if was bombed for hours, Moscow didn't survive.
Eilat was sunk in 1967 so again not in the last 50 years.

Any info about casualties in Moscow? Did the Russian media publish any information about that?

Isos wrote:

walle83 wrote:

Isos wrote:Let's just stop with the Moskva. No one on the net actually knows what happened. Even the US don't say it was a ukrainian attack.

Ukraine says it had a TB2 around her so if they really did destroy it they will provide images. It's been 2 days and we saw nothing. US also sent a drone there and again nothing.

Missile attack could have happen but so does the incident during a storm. No one knows.

Well what we know is that the ship has been in a major incident that resultet with it sinking.
Thats basicly unheard of in naval warfare after WW2. Maybe 1 or 2 ships in the last 50 years.

Lol no.

South korea got a corvette torpedoed and sunk. Israeli got a destroyer sunk and numerous arab and israeli ships got sunk in their wars. Pakistani lost numerous big ships to indian missiles. UK lost major ships in Malvinas war just like Argentina lost a big cruiser with hundreds of sailor. US lost a ship after it was bombed for hours by Israel. Israeli ship got hit by hezbollah missile while carrying best israeli AD at the time. US ship got hit by exocet. Plenty of subs went at the bottom of the ocean with their crew.

The amount of ship lost since WW2 would be closer to 100 than 1 or 2 like you say.

Loss of Moskva is a tragedy and I hope they somehow save her to make her a museum but loosing a ship isn't exeptional.

Cant compare that to a big cruiser. Argentina lost one in 1982..thats it.

You can't because no navy that was involved in a war used cruisers or destroyers.

Those who had them and used them got some hits.

marat wrote:
Is it so hard to admit that this is a disaster and that all excuses are just plain bullshit?

Yes totally! Even a hard core Russian supporter like me thinks this is a disaster. FFS this is the flagship of the BSF!

You seemed to have missed this part above but anyway thousands of Americans have died in the countless wars since WWII (100 000+ and counting). All the three wars the Soviets and Russian were involved in since WWII pales in comparison. However you yankees sure do know how to slaughter civilians! Literally millions have suffered this fate.

marat wrote:

mnztr wrote:

limb wrote:

mnztr wrote:

limb wrote:

mnztr wrote:It was 90 km off the coast of Odessa, for land based missiles this is essentially point blank range. Yes the Ukrainians are getting all kinds of intel from the US. But at 90 km this is well within the capabilities of the Ukrainians with their Neptune missile. I guess the Russians were asleep at the switch and felt they were invulnerable when not in sight of land.

Don't all Russian warships have shifts, with their sensors on?

It says the weather was stormy. Detecting a sea skimming missile has never been easy and never will be.. especially in high sea states.

Then what hope does the Russian navy have against NATO missiles?

Honestly I have been skeptical that any surface ship can survive an attack from multiple anti-ship missiles.  In the history of ashm's surface ships have not done great against them.

Not true. Izrael did a great job against Syrian and Egipt ASM, USA managed to defend their ships against Harpoon fired from Iran ships, Brits used EC measures successfully in one attack on their Carrier by Argentinian Exocet (same missiles that were lurked away from the carrier, then hit and sunk Atlantic Conveyor).

The cases above were single uses by Silkworm missiles in calm seas. Chaff and ECM is useful for sure, but modern missile have IR cameras as well for terminal guidance. Exocet is ancient and the Argies only had 6 of them. How is anyone gonna deal with 30 KH-32s inbound?

Slava Moskva! RIP

Isos wrote:You can't because no navy that was involved in a war used cruisers or destroyers.

Those who had them and used them got some hits.

Not true, US navy had intensively used them in many wars after the Falkland war.

marat wrote:

Isos wrote:You can't because no navy that was involved in a war used cruisers or destroyers.

Those who had them and used them got some hits.

Not true, US navy had intensively used them in many wars after the Falkland war.

Fighting broken countries or guerillas isn't relevent here...

In any war involving good capabilities and weaponery on both side there was losses.