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TR1 wrote:Yes, Gorshkov has the long ranged 9M96-reputed to have 150+ km range in the domestic version.
I though the 9M96 has range of 125 km what is your source for 150 km+
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Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov
Austin- Posts : 7617
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Join date : 2010-05-08
Location : India
I though the 9M96 has range of 125 km what is your source for 150 km+
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Join date : 2011-12-07
Austin wrote:TR1 wrote:Yes, Gorshkov has the long ranged 9M96-reputed to have 150+ km range in the domestic version.
I though the 9M96 has range of 125 km what is your source for 150 km+
Some AA (or Military testing, I don't remember) announcement about either Vityaz or Redut, but I distinctly recall them saying the complex (it was one that certainly uses (9M96) had 150km range.
I'll post if i find it.
GarryB- Posts : 38984
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Join date : 2010-03-30
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The Arleigh Burke-class destroyers can have 90 cells x RIM-66 with 170km range , the ROyal navy Type 45 destroyer with about 48 cell x Asters anti air missiles with up to 120km range. So i don't see the excitement of the new Frigates if will be limited to near Visual range combat when it comes to planes. Purely defensive Sams in the navy makes more sense in smaller ships like Corvettes. but not in Frigate.
So your objection to new Russian Frigates is that they are out ranged in fire power by NATO Destroyers and US 10,000 ton cruisers... interesting...
Some AA (or Military testing, I don't remember) announcement about either Vityaz or Redut, but I distinctly recall them saying the complex (it was one that certainly uses (9M96) had 150km range.
I'll post if i find it.
I distinctly remember when they were first revealed as part of the S-400 system and shown publicly the figures were 40km range for the smaller missile and 120km for the larger missile.
When Vityaz was being further remember they spoke about domestic models with ranges of 60km and 150km respectively.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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GarryB wrote:The Arleigh Burke-class destroyers can have 90 cells x RIM-66 with 170km range , the ROyal navy Type 45 destroyer with about 48 cell x Asters anti air missiles with up to 120km range. So i don't see the excitement of the new Frigates if will be limited to near Visual range combat when it comes to planes. Purely defensive Sams in the navy makes more sense in smaller ships like Corvettes. but not in Frigate.
So your objection to new Russian Frigates is that they are out ranged in fire power by NATO Destroyers and US 10,000 ton cruisers... interesting...
No kidding Arleigh Burke literally has twice the displacement in tons of weight compared to Gorshkov's (which has half the displacement). So this is really just comparing apples and oranges, they're simply not in the same class of ship.
Vann7- Posts : 5385
Points : 5485
Join date : 2012-05-16
GarryB wrote:The Arleigh Burke-class destroyers can have 90 cells x RIM-66 with 170km range , the ROyal navy Type 45 destroyer with about 48 cell x Asters anti air missiles with up to 120km range. So i don't see the excitement of the new Frigates if will be limited to near Visual range combat when it comes to planes. Purely defensive Sams in the navy makes more sense in smaller ships like Corvettes. but not in Frigate.
So your objection to new Russian Frigates is that they are out ranged in fire power by NATO Destroyers and US 10,000 ton cruisers... interesting...
Some AA (or Military testing, I don't remember) announcement about either Vityaz or Redut, but I distinctly recall them saying the complex (it was one that certainly uses (9M96) had 150km range.
I'll post if i find it.
I distinctly remember when they were first revealed as part of the S-400 system and shown publicly the figures were 40km range for the smaller missile and 120km for the larger missile.
When Vityaz was being further remember they spoke about domestic models with ranges of 60km and 150km respectively.
The comparison is fair because is not a Fairness contest. Of which have the best frigate. In case of War ,NATO will not say..lets bring Frigates and corvettes only because Russia is at disadvantage.. So is totally Fair to compare what will represent the backbone of Russia navy ,the one they plan to build more versus the more common warships that Russia will have to face. But if their SAM defenses range is 125k to 150k ,that changes things for sure.. So hopefully is true.. 40km range Sams will be good in small and cheap warships.
The only question left i guess is how many 125k+ range 9m96e missiles the Gorshov Class will have domestic version? 128 too ?
T055- Posts : 38
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Join date : 2014-07-09
Vann7 wrote:GarryB wrote:The Arleigh Burke-class destroyers can have 90 cells x RIM-66 with 170km range , the ROyal navy Type 45 destroyer with about 48 cell x Asters anti air missiles with up to 120km range. So i don't see the excitement of the new Frigates if will be limited to near Visual range combat when it comes to planes. Purely defensive Sams in the navy makes more sense in smaller ships like Corvettes. but not in Frigate.
So your objection to new Russian Frigates is that they are out ranged in fire power by NATO Destroyers and US 10,000 ton cruisers... interesting...
Some AA (or Military testing, I don't remember) announcement about either Vityaz or Redut, but I distinctly recall them saying the complex (it was one that certainly uses (9M96) had 150km range.
I'll post if i find it.
I distinctly remember when they were first revealed as part of the S-400 system and shown publicly the figures were 40km range for the smaller missile and 120km for the larger missile.
When Vityaz was being further remember they spoke about domestic models with ranges of 60km and 150km respectively.
The comparison is fair because is not a Fairness contest. Of which have the best frigate. In case of War ,NATO will not say..lets bring Frigates and corvettes only because Russia is at disadvantage.. So is totally Fair to compare what will represent the backbone of Russia navy ,the one they plan to build more versus the more common warships that Russia will have to face. But if their SAM defenses range is 125k to 150k ,that changes things for sure.. So hopefully is true.. 40km range Sams will be good in small and cheap warships.
The only question left i guess is how many 125k+ range 9m96e missiles the Gorshov Class will have domestic version? 128 too ?
The building of Gorskhov har been painfully slow. This is the hard reality. The number Russia was looking at a few years back, which were 30 to begin with was clearly just a fantasy. Then the number of Gorshkov frigates was reduced to between 15 and 20.
Today, in July 2014, it is definitely clear that Russia is lucky if they even produce 8 Gorskhovs by 2020.
Almost the same problems with Admiral Grigorivich too, but Gorshkov is really being slowly built. So it's a real let down. And it's not even close to modern destroyers out there such as Arleigh Burkes, Type 052D, Atago-class, Sejong the Great and Type 45.
The U.S. already has 62 Arleigh Burkes + more Burkes on the way and 3 Zumwalts, which is pretty sick. No 6-8 Gorshkovs can stop that, ever, in any way.
Flyingdutchman- Posts : 535
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Join date : 2013-07-30
Location : The Netherlands
T055 wrote:Vann7 wrote:GarryB wrote:The Arleigh Burke-class destroyers can have 90 cells x RIM-66 with 170km range , the ROyal navy Type 45 destroyer with about 48 cell x Asters anti air missiles with up to 120km range. So i don't see the excitement of the new Frigates if will be limited to near Visual range combat when it comes to planes. Purely defensive Sams in the navy makes more sense in smaller ships like Corvettes. but not in Frigate.
So your objection to new Russian Frigates is that they are out ranged in fire power by NATO Destroyers and US 10,000 ton cruisers... interesting...
Some AA (or Military testing, I don't remember) announcement about either Vityaz or Redut, but I distinctly recall them saying the complex (it was one that certainly uses (9M96) had 150km range.
I'll post if i find it.
I distinctly remember when they were first revealed as part of the S-400 system and shown publicly the figures were 40km range for the smaller missile and 120km for the larger missile.
When Vityaz was being further remember they spoke about domestic models with ranges of 60km and 150km respectively.
The comparison is fair because is not a Fairness contest. Of which have the best frigate. In case of War ,NATO will not say..lets bring Frigates and corvettes only because Russia is at disadvantage.. So is totally Fair to compare what will represent the backbone of Russia navy ,the one they plan to build more versus the more common warships that Russia will have to face. But if their SAM defenses range is 125k to 150k ,that changes things for sure.. So hopefully is true.. 40km range Sams will be good in small and cheap warships.
The only question left i guess is how many 125k+ range 9m96e missiles the Gorshov Class will have domestic version? 128 too ?
The building of Gorskhov har been painfully slow. This is the hard reality. The number Russia was looking at a few years back, which were 30 to begin with was clearly just a fantasy. Then the number of Gorshkov frigates was reduced to between 15 and 20.
Today, in July 2014, it is definitely clear that Russia is lucky if they even produce 8 Gorskhovs by 2020.
Almost the same problems with Admiral Grigorivich too, but Gorshkov is really being slowly built. So it's a real let down. And it's not even close to modern destroyers out there such as Arleigh Burkes, Type 052D, Atago-class, Sejong the Great and Type 45.
The U.S. already has 62 Arleigh Burkes + more Burkes on the way and 3 Zumwalts, which is pretty sick. No 6-8 Gorshkovs can stop that, ever, in any way.
You cant compare it The Gorshkov is a totally new design The Russians need to get familiar with all the new systems and stuff like that, after the first two, three Gorshkovs are ready it will go alot faster.
The Gerald R Ford class is delayed several times too.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Join date : 2011-12-07
Vann7 wrote:GarryB wrote:The Arleigh Burke-class destroyers can have 90 cells x RIM-66 with 170km range , the ROyal navy Type 45 destroyer with about 48 cell x Asters anti air missiles with up to 120km range. So i don't see the excitement of the new Frigates if will be limited to near Visual range combat when it comes to planes. Purely defensive Sams in the navy makes more sense in smaller ships like Corvettes. but not in Frigate.
So your objection to new Russian Frigates is that they are out ranged in fire power by NATO Destroyers and US 10,000 ton cruisers... interesting...
Some AA (or Military testing, I don't remember) announcement about either Vityaz or Redut, but I distinctly recall them saying the complex (it was one that certainly uses (9M96) had 150km range.
I'll post if i find it.
I distinctly remember when they were first revealed as part of the S-400 system and shown publicly the figures were 40km range for the smaller missile and 120km for the larger missile.
When Vityaz was being further remember they spoke about domestic models with ranges of 60km and 150km respectively.
The comparison is fair because is not a Fairness contest. Of which have the best frigate. In case of War ,NATO will not say..lets bring Frigates and corvettes only because Russia is at disadvantage.. So is totally Fair to compare what will represent the backbone of Russia navy ,the one they plan to build more versus the more common warships that Russia will have to face. But if their SAM defenses range is 125k to 150k ,that changes things for sure.. So hopefully is true.. 40km range Sams will be good in small and cheap warships.
The only question left i guess is how many 125k+ range 9m96e missiles the Gorshov Class will have domestic version? 128 too ?
Can we bury the "4 9M96 per cell" myth already? One missile per cell. The same cells are used on 20380 and 22350. The first has 12 cells, the second has 32.
32 long-range SAMs (not including point defense ones that are increasingly impessive in range themselves) is very good for the displacement.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Join date : 2011-12-07
T055 wrote:Vann7 wrote:GarryB wrote:The Arleigh Burke-class destroyers can have 90 cells x RIM-66 with 170km range , the ROyal navy Type 45 destroyer with about 48 cell x Asters anti air missiles with up to 120km range. So i don't see the excitement of the new Frigates if will be limited to near Visual range combat when it comes to planes. Purely defensive Sams in the navy makes more sense in smaller ships like Corvettes. but not in Frigate.
So your objection to new Russian Frigates is that they are out ranged in fire power by NATO Destroyers and US 10,000 ton cruisers... interesting...
Some AA (or Military testing, I don't remember) announcement about either Vityaz or Redut, but I distinctly recall them saying the complex (it was one that certainly uses (9M96) had 150km range.
I'll post if i find it.
I distinctly remember when they were first revealed as part of the S-400 system and shown publicly the figures were 40km range for the smaller missile and 120km for the larger missile.
When Vityaz was being further remember they spoke about domestic models with ranges of 60km and 150km respectively.
The comparison is fair because is not a Fairness contest. Of which have the best frigate. In case of War ,NATO will not say..lets bring Frigates and corvettes only because Russia is at disadvantage.. So is totally Fair to compare what will represent the backbone of Russia navy ,the one they plan to build more versus the more common warships that Russia will have to face. But if their SAM defenses range is 125k to 150k ,that changes things for sure.. So hopefully is true.. 40km range Sams will be good in small and cheap warships.
The only question left i guess is how many 125k+ range 9m96e missiles the Gorshov Class will have domestic version? 128 too ?
The building of Gorskhov har been painfully slow. This is the hard reality. The number Russia was looking at a few years back, which were 30 to begin with was clearly just a fantasy. Then the number of Gorshkov frigates was reduced to between 15 and 20.
Today, in July 2014, it is definitely clear that Russia is lucky if they even produce 8 Gorskhovs by 2020.
Almost the same problems with Admiral Grigorivich too, but Gorshkov is really being slowly built. So it's a real let down. And it's not even close to modern destroyers out there such as Arleigh Burkes, Type 052D, Atago-class, Sejong the Great and Type 45.
The U.S. already has 62 Arleigh Burkes + more Burkes on the way and 3 Zumwalts, which is pretty sick. No 6-8 Gorshkovs can stop that, ever, in any way.
Russia does not rely on its frigates to fight enemy destroyers, so it is an irrelevant comparison at best.
Nobody was looking at 30 Gorshkovs by 2020 a few years back. That is the total planned for the class in the long term.
The funny thing is it has the potency of a destroyer, on a much smaller chassis. Just with generally less weapons, but the performance corresponds to much larger ships.
Vann7- Posts : 5385
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So how many 9M96e missiles the Gorshkov frigate will have with 125km-150km range... ?
128 ?
I ask because the lenght of different versions of 9m96 change.. the longer range ones no idea if fit on the warship in
numbers of 4 per cell.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Join date : 2011-12-07
Vann7 wrote:
So how many 9M96e missiles the Gorshkov frigate will have with 125km-150km range... ?
128 ?
I ask because the lenght of different versions of 9m96 change.. the longer range ones no idea if fit on the warship in
numbers of 4 per cell.
32.
There is one short range or long range 9M96 missile per cell. No more, no less.
They differ in length, not width
George1- Posts : 18315
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when Gorshkov will be delivered at last? it reminds me Ivan Gren ship
TR1- Posts : 5435
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George1 wrote:when Gorshkov will be delivered at last? it reminds me Ivan Gren ship
Navy doesn't want Ivan Gren, but it very much wants Gorshkov.
KomissarBojanchev- Posts : 1429
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if it wanted gorshkov it wouldnt take as much time as an entire cruiser for just a single ship to be built. Measly italian navy builds 2 7000 ton destroyers for the same time.TR1 wrote:George1 wrote:when Gorshkov will be delivered at last? it reminds me Ivan Gren ship
Navy doesn't want Ivan Gren, but it very much wants Gorshkov.
However unlike tr1 Im an optimist and I belive well see russias problems sorted out and well see at least 50 frigates of all types by 2025
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Hey I am an optimist, just within the realm of reality.
Gorshkov is taking so long because funding was absent (or irregular) in the 2000s, plus the ship is chock full of new systems. These take time to create and test.
The subcontractors were money starved for years, suddenly throwing cash at them does not produce instant results.
Compared to Gorshkov, Ivan Gren is a simple tub. Not nearly the same amount of new and cutting edge weapons and sensors.
I am most interested in how long Admiral Golovko takes to commission. Gorshkov and Kasatonov suffered from the hull being way ahead of the systems.
Gorshkov is taking so long because funding was absent (or irregular) in the 2000s, plus the ship is chock full of new systems. These take time to create and test.
The subcontractors were money starved for years, suddenly throwing cash at them does not produce instant results.
Compared to Gorshkov, Ivan Gren is a simple tub. Not nearly the same amount of new and cutting edge weapons and sensors.
I am most interested in how long Admiral Golovko takes to commission. Gorshkov and Kasatonov suffered from the hull being way ahead of the systems.
GarryB- Posts : 38984
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If it wanted...???
So what you are actually saying is that weapons development and integration is not about testing and solutions, it is about wants and throwing money at problems?
Microsoft still can't put out an operating system that is bug free and in comparison a modern warship with all new components is orders of magnitude more complex with millions of interactions.
Gorshkov is delayed because it is not ready for service yet and apart from you whiny fanbois complaining because it is taking too long, what other reason do they have to rush it into service not ready?
Sometimes there are no adequate or obvious solutions and a vessel enters service with problems.
Look at the front end of the Kiev class carriers... they kept changing them to get the airflow over the air strip sorted out, but that was a different time.
if they are going to make 20 or so Gorshkovs then it makes sense to get the first one right and working before making another 19 the same.
These are Frigates and will not lead the fight against NATO... the Yars will do that and its funding and performance seem to be just fine.
It is not even just a question of getting all the systems and sensors working together, they also have to tweek them so they are working as good as they can and then actually getting them into production so they can be ready to make them for the serially produced ships.
So what you are actually saying is that weapons development and integration is not about testing and solutions, it is about wants and throwing money at problems?
Microsoft still can't put out an operating system that is bug free and in comparison a modern warship with all new components is orders of magnitude more complex with millions of interactions.
Gorshkov is delayed because it is not ready for service yet and apart from you whiny fanbois complaining because it is taking too long, what other reason do they have to rush it into service not ready?
Sometimes there are no adequate or obvious solutions and a vessel enters service with problems.
Look at the front end of the Kiev class carriers... they kept changing them to get the airflow over the air strip sorted out, but that was a different time.
if they are going to make 20 or so Gorshkovs then it makes sense to get the first one right and working before making another 19 the same.
These are Frigates and will not lead the fight against NATO... the Yars will do that and its funding and performance seem to be just fine.
It is not even just a question of getting all the systems and sensors working together, they also have to tweek them so they are working as good as they can and then actually getting them into production so they can be ready to make them for the serially produced ships.
Flyingdutchman- Posts : 535
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How many Gorshkovs would be part of a typical strike group in the near future?
GarryB- Posts : 38984
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I would suggest it strongly depends on what other platforms are available... a full strength Russian Navy would likely take few Frigates with a surface action group as they would limit their range and speed.
calripson- Posts : 739
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What is the deal with this ship ? You could build the pyramids in the time it takes to complete it. Is it ever going to get commissioned ?
GarryB- Posts : 38984
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No, it is never going to be commissioned... it is a big hoax.
this is a frigate... there is no enormous hurry for such vessels, though getting them into service would be a very good thing, as they could retire a lot of older vessels when these ships are operational.
it will save a lot of money to just get the first vessel right 100% so that few changes are needed with later models.
I suspect they wont put any ship in mass production any time soon till they have the gas turbines produced in Russia ready for mass production too.
this is a frigate... there is no enormous hurry for such vessels, though getting them into service would be a very good thing, as they could retire a lot of older vessels when these ships are operational.
it will save a lot of money to just get the first vessel right 100% so that few changes are needed with later models.
I suspect they wont put any ship in mass production any time soon till they have the gas turbines produced in Russia ready for mass production too.
TheArmenian- Posts : 1880
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The gun for Gorshkov has finally arrived.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
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TheArmenian wrote:The gun for Gorshkov has finally arrived.
About time!
zg18- Posts : 888
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TheArmenian wrote:The gun for Gorshkov has finally arrived.
Finally!
EKS- Posts : 33
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Mike E wrote:TheArmenian wrote:The gun for Gorshkov has finally arrived.
About time!
Finally! Well, it will be the moment of the truth. What was the main cause of the delay?
I hope that with the main gun installed, the vessel will be fit for service.
zg18- Posts : 888
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EKS wrote:Finally! Well, it will be the moment of the truth. What was the main cause of the delay?
I hope that with the main gun installed, the vessel will be fit for service.
AFAIK gun had problems with stability during development , even with the gun , ship will have to undergo state trials before it`s really fit for service. It can take time because Gorshkov is really first big ship with new post-Soviet tech.
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