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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    Austin
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:51 pm

    I hope the 128 SAM of 9M96 SAM is true , But from what i understand 22350 will have Brahmos missile and not Oniks.

    From what I understand the Russians have agree to put in Brahmos missile on this frigate.

    Just 6 ships of this class till 2020 is quite low IMO. But still 6 x 22350 and 6x 11356 class make 12 Frigate which is good.

    How many 20385 class has been planned to be built by 2020 ?

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  medo on Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:39 pm

    So Soobrazatelny and Boiky have 48 9M96 missiles. This is good.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:34 pm

    Guys, there is one missile per cell. This was known long ago, anything else is just innacuracy.

    http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff272/Turrets1/Warship%20Models%201/SoobVLS.jpg

    4 9M96 per cell? Yeah right, that is physical impossibility.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:40 pm

    TR1 wrote:Guys, there is one missile per cell. This was known long ago, anything else is just innacuracy.

    http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff272/Turrets1/Warship%20Models%201/SoobVLS.jpg

    4 9M96 per cell? Yeah right, that is physical impossibility.

    9M96 missile is just 25 cm in diameter - half the 48N6 or 5V55 class meaning they take 4 times less area. so I see no problem with fitting 4 of them in one cell.

    TR1 if you would place 2 9M96 missiles side by side, you would occupy only 0.5 m of space. Judging by you picture that Redut width is much more than 0.5m.

    Do you see my point?

    Austin wrote:I hope the 128 SAM of 9M96 SAM is true , But from what i understand 22350 will have Brahmos missile and not Oniks.

    From what I understand the Russians have agree to put in Brahmos missile on this frigate.

    Just 6 ships of this class till 2020 is quite low IMO. But still  6 x 22350 and 6x 11356 class make 12 Frigate which is good.

    How many 20385 class has been planned to be built by 2020 ?

    UKSK is universal launcher. They can put what ever they want and Brahmos is a state of the art missile.  It would be nice to see it on board 20385/22350.

    Russia will build 6-10 project 22350 by 2020 but construction will continue well after 2020. I think they could build 16 project 20380/20385 by 2020 but we will see.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:53 am

    I hope the 128 SAM of 9M96 SAM is true , But from what i understand 22350 will have Brahmos missile and not Oniks.

    UKSK is a universal launcher... it can launch Klub or Kalibr or Onyx/Yakhont/Brahmos or any combination of these missiles.

    Guys, there is one missile per cell. This was known long ago, anything else is just innacuracy.

    http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff272/Turrets1/Warship%20Models%201/SoobVLS.jpg

    4 9M96 per cell? Yeah right, that is physical impossibility.

    In the S-400/S-500 thread you mentioned the four tube launcher in the video. The four tube holes were in one large circular structure.

    The big circle is the size of the standard full sized S-300 and S-400 missiles. The four small holes are the size of the 9M96 missiles called Vityaz on land and Redut at sea.



    This is it... four tubes, but when one tube is loaded with the slimmer 9M96 missiles it can carry 4 missiles.

    These are the smaller 9M96 missiles:



    As shown on this drawing the slimmer missiles fit four to a single large tube on the land based version.



    We talked about this ages ago... the whole idea of a unified launcher is that instead of having customised launchers and sensors and weapons for each role you can have one type of SAM launcher from corvette to carrier, and one type of attack missile launcher. Obviously with a little corvette used for coastal patrol you wont fill its 8 UKSK tubes with 2,500km range land attack Kalibr missiles... but then on a specific mission you just might want to send small ships into an area to launch a cruise missile attack and then disperse... these tiny vessels are still part of an electronic network so target data does not need to come from the vessels own sensors... which means that if you want to arm it with 400km range SAMs then that could be an option too.



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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:30 am

    Victor + Garry,

    The 4 tube launcher was speculated on RUssian forums to be launcher for 885 submarines, so I don't think it has anything to do with SAMs. It looked much much bigger than a single 48N6 round.

    4 9m96 might physically fit into the space of one Redut VLS (I'd have to make some measurements) but there are concerns with the launching mechanism as well.
    Pretty much every Russian source points to it being one missile, one cell. The only quad pack mention is 9m100, wherever that project is.

    EDIT: I guess it could physically fit, the missile is pretty slim...would need to see the cell open to make sure.
    Would love to be wrong here.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  xeno on Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:49 am


    This is the best photo to show the size of the cover of the cell for Redout system.
    I have been interested in this system for a long time, so I collected this photo a while ago.
    From the photo, you can see the width of the cover is over the half height of the Russian standing by.
    The average height of adult Russians is 1.75m.
    So, let's say the guy in the photo is 1.70m, then you can safely assume that the width of the cover is bigger than 90cm.
    If memory is not wrong, then the diameter of a 9M96 is 240mm, so it is completely possible that 4 9M96's can be crammed into one cell.
    However, you Russians are surprisly creative while surprisly dumb as per my 30 years experiance following Russian military(actually first 7 years following Soviet military), so I 'd rather believe TR1's assumption: 32 missiles for 22350, although 4 missiles in a cell is possible per this photo analysis.
    2ndly, why Russians install 128 9m96 missiles (range >120km) in a 4500 ton frigate? That is over powered.
    Until now I choose to believe 32 missiles, although a 90cm diameter cell is ridiculous to a 240mm missile, anyway they are unpredictable Russians.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:39 am

    May be 2x9M96 per cell , Four would be cramped as you have to take account the cells these missiles are placed, So likely 2-3 Missile per cell , Even 2 missile per cell would be 64 SAM of 9mM96 which is quite good.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:46 am

    TR1 wrote:Victor + Garry,

    The 4 tube launcher was speculated on RUssian forums to be launcher for 885 submarines, so I don't think it has anything to do with SAMs. It looked much much bigger than a single 48N6 round.

    4 9m96 might physically fit into the space of one Redut VLS (I'd have to make some measurements) but there are concerns with the launching mechanism as well.
    Pretty much every Russian source points to it being one missile, one cell. The only quad pack mention is 9m100, wherever that project is.

    EDIT: I guess it could physically fit, the missile is pretty slim...would need to see the cell open to make sure.
    Would love to be wrong here.

    The launchers on Proekt 885 are much larger.

    As far as I know, four 9M96 class missiles or sixteen missiles of around 125 mm diameter can fit into each of the Redut VLS tubes.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:00 am

    Austin wrote:May be 2x9M96 per cell , Four would be cramped as you have to take account the cells these missiles are placed, So likely 2-3 Missile per cell , Even 2 missile per cell would be 64 SAM of 9mM96 which is quite good.

    Doesnt make sense because.
    If you can fit two - either way (side by side) - you can fit 4
    If you can fit two (diagonally) - you can fit 4

    Redut launchers are big enough to accommodate a variety of air defense missiles just like UKSK is able to accommodate a whole variety of attack missiles.
    So in that case for the space of one 48N6 round you will be able to put 4 9M96.

    Building 2000 ton ship to put only 12 SAM missiles in it does not make sense anyway and is certainly not in Russian tradition Very Happy. Building launcher of size where you can put 4 missiles but than put only two of them does not make any sense.

    xeno wrote:If memory is not wrong, then the diameter of a 9M96 is 240mm, so it is completely possible that 4 9M96's can be crammed into one cell.

    Thats my point.

    xeno wrote:However, you Russians are surprisly creative while surprisly dumb as per my 30 years experiance following Russian military(actually first 7 years following Soviet military), so I 'd rather believe TR1's assumption: 32 missiles for 22350, although 4 missiles in a cell is possible per this photo analysis.

    So you believe it is possible to put 4 9M96 per cell but dont believe Russians will do it? ShockedVery Happy

    Thing is that during all Russian history Russians have been building surface and sub units with largest coefficient of weapon weight per unit weight.

    Look at Slava class - it hold worlds record for its ability to carry biggest armament in size and weight per its own weight in the world. (surface unit)

    Look at Oscar class - it hold worlds record for its ability to carry biggest armament in size and weight per its own weight in the world. (submarine unit)

    So thinking that Russians will build 2000 ton vessel just to put 12 tiny missiles in it is just not in their style and does not have any logic.

    xeno wrote:2ndly, why Russians install 128 9m96 missiles (range >120km) in a 4500 ton frigate? That is over powered.
    Until now I choose to believe 32 missiles, although a 90cm diameter cell is ridiculous to a 240mm missile, anyway they are unpredictable Russians.

    Its not overpowered. It is in line with the future threats the vessel is design for.
    Today only way to penetrate formidable air defense systems is saturation. In any future scenario fighters will be able to carry many new weapons that are developed or are in development, that will allow them to saturate defenses outside its reach, having powerful, long range, precision air defense with lots of munitions has a lot of sense in the world - dont you agree.
    With that in mind I would call new EU frigates and destroyers underpowered.


    TR1 wrote:Victor + Garry,

    The 4 tube launcher was speculated on RUssian forums to be launcher for 885 submarines, so I don't think it has anything to do with SAMs. It looked much much bigger than a single 48N6 round.

    Does Almaz-Antej build launchers for cruise missiles? I thought that producers of such missiles produces launchers too but I could be wrong?


    TR1 wrote:

    4 9m96 might physically fit into the space of one Redut VLS (I'd have to make some measurements) but there are concerns with the launching mechanism as well.
    Pretty much every Russian source points to it being one missile, one cell. The only quad pack mention is 9m100, wherever that project is.

    EDIT: I guess it could physically fit, the missile is pretty slim...would need to see the cell open to make sure.
    Would love to be wrong here.

    There will be new naval show in several days -MVMS naval show. Almaz-Antej promised us surprises so I hope they will clear thing for us Very Happy

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:27 pm

    The 4 tube launcher was speculated on RUssian forums to be launcher for 885 submarines, so I don't think it has anything to do with SAMs. It looked much much bigger than a single 48N6 round.

    And it might be... that is irrelevant.

    In the photo above I have posted a SAM launcher with four missile positions... three of those missiles positions contain one missile, one of those missile positions contain four missiles.

    The Redut system is naval S-400/Vityaz. The single hatch can accommodate one very large missile of the Rif or Rif-M or S-400 type, or it can accommodate four slimmer missiles of the S-400/Vityaz type in one large tube.

    It would be totally stupid and totally pointless to have fixed rigid limits on missiles so that a 32 tube launcher could only carry 32 missiles but could carry large heavy missiles or smaller lighter shorter range missiles... there would be no point in carrying only 32 short range missiles when you could carry 32 400km range missiles with much better performance.

    To standardise you need scalability... the Redut system can carry big missiles... one to a single tube, it can also carry smaller missiles... Vityaz in four to a tube arrangement the same as the land based version shown above.

    I have speculated that the Morfei being a much smaller missile (in between Igla-S and R-74) should be able to carry even more missiles... perhaps in two layers and that is totally speculation on my part I will admit, but it is pretty plain that Redut is a 32 tube system able to carry 32 large missiles or 4 times that in medium sized missiles... we can only guess about small missiles... I am hoping for two layers of 6 missiles but you know what an optimist I am... Smile


    4 9m96 might physically fit into the space of one Redut VLS (I'd have to make some measurements) but there are concerns with the launching mechanism as well.

    You don't think it will fit?

    I showed you a photo of it fitting already...



    Again these are self contained launch tubes... loaded onto a truck trailer in this case or into a launch bin on a ship at dock the missile will be packaged exactly the same way for naval applications... the only difference likely will be that the naval missiles will likely plug into the system at their base rather than at their side.

    Pretty much every Russian source points to it being one missile, one cell. The only quad pack mention is 9m100, wherever that project is.

    Did you read Viktors post above? (no.151)

    9M100 is going to be much more like R-60 than R-74 in terms of size but not performance.

    32 missiles for 22350, although 4 missiles in a cell is possible per this photo analysis.
    2ndly, why Russians install 128 9m96 missiles (range >120km) in a 4500 ton frigate? That is over powered.

    Can carry does not mean will carry.

    Operationally it will likely carry a mix of short, medium and long range missiles. With 32 tubes that means perhaps 8-12 full sized one missile one tube missiles... lets say 12 because being able to shoot down launch platforms at long range will reduce the number of threats to the vessel during an attack as it can kill aircraft before they launch their weapons. Target detection and tracking can be performed by other platforms or UAVs.

    That leaves 20 tubes, but that doesn't mean 80 x medium range SAMs as you will also want short range point defence missiles so maybe 8-12 tubes will be short range self defence missiles to protect from mass attack, which leaves 8-12 tubes for Vityaz missiles... which means 32-48 missiles in the 60km range and 150km range... perhaps a mix of both of 50/50.

    Not exactly a revolutionary SAM mix for a Russian vessel but a lot for a 32 tube launch system. For larger vessels the mix will be different but then they will also likely carry more than one bin launcher...

    May be 2x9M96 per cell , Four would be cramped as you have to take account the cells these missiles are placed, So likely 2-3 Missile per cell , Even 2 missile per cell would be 64 SAM of 9mM96 which is quite good.

    Fitting circles in circles means if you can fit two in then you should be able to get 3 in.

    The photo above shows they can clearly get four in. And that they have with the land based model which is fully self contained in its launch container including cold launch system...

    The only question I see is how many 9M100s will they fit...


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:48 pm

    Heres a question that needs answering- do we have any evidence of the Redut-Poliment VLS as it exists today - on the 20380s and 22350s - being able to carry 48N6?
    The system is somewhat of a navalized S-300/400, but I have not seen any actual link between THESE VLS tubes, and the 48N6.

    At this point I am not sure 48N6 is integrated or intended at all for Poliment-Redut.

    I will concede the missiles could very well fit in there if we can see some proof 48N6 actually fits in those VLS cells.

    Be great if we got a pic of the VLS tubes open and from above, that way the size of the opening could be analyzed better.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:24 am

    Perhaps a revisit on the idea of standardisation is needed.

    It makes no sense to standardise on a single SAM launcher if you are then going to make different non compatible types for different vessels.

    That being the case then can we assume that the system has the same components but different vessels will mount different numbers of the elements or components.

    For instance a corvette might have one 32 tube launcher and due to its small size and lack of mast height would not be effective on its own to use 400km range SAMs and therefore when it came to loading time at the pier it was never fitted with any.

    It is however fitted with the Sigma-M data sharing system that allows it to see a picture of space, air, sea surface, and sub surface based on information from a range of sources including satellite, aircraft, other surface vessels, submarines, and sea bed devices/arrays, and with that might be able to carry missiles at high speed closer to an area of enemy activity... launch some long range missiles and then return to a safe area better than a much larger vessel could?

    I have shown photos of the ground based system and if you look carefully at the base of the "tube" with the four missiles you can clearly see the base is as wide as the other tubes but it actually gets narrower as you move up the base of the tube.

    Add to that the article Viktor posted which is a Russian source and I really don't understand where your scepticism is coming from.


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Viktor on Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:41 pm

    TR1 wrote:Heres a question that needs answering- do we have any evidence of the Redut-Poliment VLS as it exists today - on the 20380s and 22350s - being able to carry 48N6?
    The system is somewhat of a navalized S-300/400, but I have not seen any actual link between THESE VLS tubes, and the 48N6.

    At this point I am not sure 48N6 is integrated or intended at all for Poliment-Redut.

    I will concede the missiles could very well fit in there if we can see some proof 48N6 actually fits in those VLS cells.

    Be great if we got a pic of the VLS tubes open and from above, that way the size of the opening could be analyzed better.

    P-Redut is based on S-400

    • development of cross-species system based on S-400 "Triumph", ZRAS "polyment-Redoute" and SAM "

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/456458.html


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:15 pm

    9M96 Navalised SAM should be good enough for most AD situation the Firgate would face , Really do not need 48N6 or 40N6 they are more situated for New Generation Destroyers or as an upgrade to existing Cruisers.

    9M96 is competitive viz a viz Aster system and under development Barak-8

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Viktor on Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:57 pm

    Austin wrote:9M96 Navalised SAM should be good enough for most AD situation the Firgate would face , Really do not need 48N6 or 40N6 they are more situated for New Generation Destroyers or as an upgrade to existing Cruisers.

    9M96 is competitive viz a viz Aster system and under development Barak-8

    Still 400km range 40N6 (or 250km range 48N6) would be ideal to surprise and chase off pesky E-2 or Growler in the area Laughing 


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:07 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    Austin wrote:9M96 Navalised SAM should be good enough for most AD situation the Firgate would face , Really do not need 48N6 or 40N6 they are more situated for New Generation Destroyers or as an upgrade to existing Cruisers.

    9M96 is competitive viz a viz Aster system and under development Barak-8

    Still 400km range 40N6 (or 250km range 48N6) would be ideal to surprise and chase off pesky E-2 or Growler in the area Laughing 


    Not certainly on 4000 T Frigate , They already mentioned that the new generation destroyers will have S-500 , so i think its fair to assume that the modernised Cruisers and new Destroyers will carry S-400/500.

    The problem is to hit a target at 400 km you need a very powerful radar that can track targets at those range , Where as Frigates are bread and butter ships that provides Area Air Defence and Ship Defence against common threats like anti-ship missile etc , 9M96 is good for that role.

    I think the current ships in Navy that carry S-300 can be modernised to carry the S-400 be it 48N6 or 40N6

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:38 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Heres a question that needs answering- do we have any evidence of the Redut-Poliment VLS as it exists today - on the 20380s and 22350s - being able to carry 48N6?
    The system is somewhat of a navalized S-300/400, but I have not seen any actual link between THESE VLS tubes, and the 48N6.

    At this point I am not sure 48N6 is integrated or intended at all for Poliment-Redut.

    I will concede the missiles could very well fit in there if we can see some proof 48N6 actually fits in those VLS cells.

    Be great if we got a pic of the VLS tubes open and from above, that way the size of the opening could be analyzed better.

    P-Redut is based on S-400

    • development of cross-species system based on S-400 "Triumph", ZRAS "polyment-Redoute" and SAM "

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/456458.html


    Yes no doubt, but what I am looking for is specific mention of naval 48N6 use with Poliment-Redut.
    The radar, network, everything is vastly different from land based system. Hell its different from 20380 (where it barely works!) to the 22350 (where the sensor suit is comparatively magic) .
    I've always kind of assumed 48N6 was part of Poliment-Redut, but I am not sure now, especially with the VLS setup on the corvettes and frigates. It sure hasn't been tested, navally 9M96 has a long way to go alone.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:47 am

    Redut is navalised S-400/Vityaz.

    The Redut launchers are compatible with the S-400/Vityaz for the same reason that the S-400 launchers will be able to carry S-400 and Vityaz.

    Note the land based Vityaz launchers likely wont be compatible with the bigger S-400 missiles because it is designed specifically to carry the 9M96 missiles.

    The Land based system therefore has S-400 and Vityaz launchers... presumably the latter with 9M96 and 9M100 missile compatibility, while the former has 9M96 and compatibility with all the larger S-400 missiles including the 250km and 400km range weapons.

    The thing is that the Vityaz is to replace the older shorter range S-300 batteries and has little need for the longer range missiles, while the S-400 can have the shorter range Vityaz missiles or the much longer range missiles.

    The Vityaz on its own will be sufficient for protecting many targets but for major strategic targets the S-400 will be used.

    Targeting will be in conjunction with the IADS including VKO data from satellites, ground radar and AWACS and aircraft like the PAK FA etc.

    At sea there will be an IADS except it will include not just air defence data but data about space based objects and those on the sea surface and underwater and on land targets.

    There is only one standard launcher for the S-300/S-400 SAMs (there is also the Shtil-1 vertical launch system for Shtil missiles of course) and it is standard from Corvette to Carrier.

    The fact that it will likely never use a 400km range S-400 missile is beside the point... it will have the UKSK launcher bins too and may never carry a 2,500km range land attack Kalibr missile either... that is not to say it can't... it just probably wont.

    They wont make a special UKSK launcher for Corvettes and a different one for carriers... both will be the same... that is the whole point behind standardisation.

    Yes no doubt, but what I am looking for is specific mention of naval 48N6 use with Poliment-Redut.
    The radar, network, everything is vastly different from land based system. Hell its different from 20380 (where it barely works!) to the 22350 (where the sensor suit is comparatively magic) .
    I've always kind of assumed 48N6 was part of Poliment-Redut, but I am not sure now, especially with the VLS setup on the corvettes and frigates. It sure hasn't been tested, navally 9M96 has a long way to go alone.

    The point behind a standard weapon system is that it is the same in every instance. On the Kirovs upgrade for example the main radars will be larger than the installation on a Corvette and there will be more than one 32 tube launcher on a Kirov, but otherwise they will be the same, which saves in manufacturing, maintainence, training, logistics, even ship design.

    Saying a small ship like a Corvette doesn't ever need a 400km range SAM is like saying a small Corvette doesn't need a long range anti ship missile.

    Never say never.

    The 400km range S-400 does not need continuous tracking of the target for an intercept... in fact guidance can be handed off to another platform like AWACS or PAK FA.


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Austin on Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:48 pm

    Viktor , Any info on the Poliment Radar on 22350 Ship , Is it a Dual Band Radar like SPY-3 or any further info ?

    Here is good detail on 9M96 SAM

    http://pvo.guns.ru/book/fakel/new_gen.htm

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:00 am

    Now here is an interesting comparison of the same situation with the US.

    US has MK-41 vertical launchers. Per bay it is able to accommodate one SM-3 (diameter 54cm) or four ESSM (24cm in diameter).

    Now diameter of 48N6 is 50 cm but diameter of 9M96 class missile almost as same as ESSM, 25cm in diameter so similarity with Mk-41 is obvious.

    - Loading container with four ESSM missile launcher in the destroyer DDG-85 "Makkempbell." San Diego, 05.05.2004

     
       
    Anyway any ship in the world that uses Mk-41 launchers can accommodate 4 ESSM (almost same in diameter with 9M96 class) instead of SM-3 or some other
    missiles with larger diameter.




    Anyway here is by far BEST page I managed to find in the internet regarding VLS

    LINK



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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:32 am


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:00 pm

    http://www.balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachment.php?item=343427&download=2&type=.jpg

    Big photo of the ship today.
    Apparently first metal for the 4th ship will be cut soon.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:15 am

    Austin wrote:

    The problem is to hit a target at 400 km you need a very powerful radar that can track targets at those range , Where as Frigates are bread and butter ships that provides Area Air Defence and Ship Defence against common threats like anti-ship missile etc , 9M96 is good for that role.

    Well this yes it's true that powerful radar might be needed. Nonetheless for targets like say E-2 or Growler.. it can be targeted using passive means through ESM..picking off their radar/jammer emission..then fly 40N6.

    Well now i really wish to know development of Russian naval based ESM's... ground forces already got Orion and other stuff.. but for navy..kinda mysterious i think.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:01 am

    It is very likely that the very long range S-400 missiles will use onboard radar seekers either in SARH or more likely ARH and possibly with an IIR backup seeker fitted so much like a long range shot with an R-77 precise continuous tracking of the target is not strictly essential and mid course updates would be sufficient to ensure the target does not move outside the missiles own detection area by the time the missile gets there.

    Just like the R-37 missile fired at a target 300km away that was beyond the detection or tracking range of the Mig-31M that had not been fitted with an upgraded radar yet and was using a standard ZASLON radar, yet through the use of a Su-30 closer to the target providing target data the target was engaged and hit.

    A corvette operating near a home coastline could use data from the aerospace defence network as well as the navy network to find targets to engage at distances well beyond those its own sensors could detect targets at.

    The Russian plan for Su-30M miniAWACS fighter management aircraft with smaller lighter aircraft like Mig-29s operating closer to the enemy with their radars off operating silently is an example of using smaller lighter platforms to operate closer to an enemy using the more powerful long range sensors of other platforms to delivery weapons without giving away their positions, yet being able to detect the enemy well before the enemy detects them and deliver weapons silently and leave to rearm leaving their return to base to rearm and refuel covered by the heavy platforms that gave them the tactical advantage in the first place.

    Maximise the performance of the systems by using big long range radar and big long range missiles on multiple small cheap platforms that can operate closer to the enemy without being noticed/detected yet able to defend themselves and deliver medium and long range missiles every bit as potent as the weapons of the larger more expensive systems which by definition you can't afford to have many of in terms of cost and manning limitations.


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