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    Project 885: Yasen class

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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:35 am

    Indian's corvettes can fire brahmos from UKSK so p800 should be also compatible. The thing is that the fire control systems are not the same for oniks and kalibr. So if the sfup doesn't have it, it can't fire oniks if I'm not wrong.

    The missile launcher is universal.... it does not need to be adapted to each different missile.

    The Brahmos is basically an Indian adapted Yakhont which is basically an export Onyx... of course Brahmos can be used in UKSK launchers, and Yakhont and Onyx can also be used in UKSK... as can Calibr and Klub and Zircon.

    Each weapon will require different target data to be used effectively but Sigma should allow the provision of that needed target data to any platform.

    Needless to say a Russian corvette in the Caspian sea has no sensor on board that would detect an ISIS HQ in the middle of Syria yet we have seen them launch missiles to destroy such targets with out own eyes.

    Yassen can receive target data relating to enemy subs or enemy ships or enemy land targets and could launch appropriate missiles to destroy said targets.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    They are working on upgraded replacements for the Onyx called Zircon, so it would make sense they were also working on replacements for the Calibr with the new Russian motor and improved aerodynamics and stealth shape which would allow high altitude flight to the target area improving flight range and general performance.

    The multistage supersonic models with the rocket terminal phase could be replaced with a scramjet powered hypersonic component that climbs and flys to high altitude at subsonic speed and then travels thousands of kms... and then dumps its large fuel tanks and high lift wings and accelerates to high speed with its jet engine in scramjet mode...


    Why slow and high? high - either big wings or if 40,000m or so than really fast. Besides PGS was to fly on 50-70km what is then sene to build slow and visible ones?

    hoom

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  hoom on Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:31 pm

    Indian's corvettes can fire brahmos from UKSK so p800 should be also compatible.
    We know Onyx is compatible, the question is whether X-101 can fit.
    Onyx being a big missile & not much smaller than X-101 makes it closest reference.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Isos on Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:15 pm

    hoom wrote:
    Indian's corvettes can fire brahmos from UKSK so p800 should be also compatible.
    We know Onyx is compatible, the question is whether X-101 can fit.
    Onyx being a big missile & not much smaller than X-101 makes it closest reference.

    Like that, no. You would need to adapt the fixation points on the missiles and add a booster which will make the missile longer. In terms of weight and size it should fit but it's not really necessary because they already have Kalibr.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  hoom on Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:30 am

    We're discussing this quote from a Russian article
    there are plans to equip "Ash" [Yasen] long-range cruise missiles X-101/102
    It appears someone thinks that it is necessary.
    Could be the source is just trash.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:30 am

    Why slow and high? high - either big wings or if 40,000m or so than really fast. Besides PGS was to fly on 50-70km what is then sene to build slow and visible ones?

    At high altitude a cruise missile can fly very efficiently over great distances much more easily than it could at lower altitudes.

    Very high speed is only needed to penetrate enemy air defences... a Russian ship launching a large hybrid cruise missile in the south Atlantic or south pacific doesn't need to care about its missiles being tracked or intercepted... there wont be anything there for the first few thousand kms to intercept them.

    If you want a 10,000km range scramjet powered cruise missile that flys at hypersonic speed then odds are it wont be hypersonic all the way.

    If that is the case then it makes sense to adapt the design to stages where it is like an ICBM.... except large wings and a solid rocket booster get it flying and climbing and accelerating.... it will be mostly fuel at launch.... but after the solid rocket burns out the remaining hollow can be used for a scramjet motor that gradually accelerates the missile... large external fuel tanks can be dropped when empty and wing surfaces can adapt to reduced weight and increased speed as it continues to climb and accelerate towards the enemy target... the scramjet engine can be throttled to optimise thrust and fuel consumption to maximise range and speed.

    We know Onyx is compatible, the question is whether X-101 can fit.
    Onyx being a big missile & not much smaller than X-101 makes it closest reference.

    I would suspect if it does not fit then the replacement for the Kalibr will use its design and systems and just be narrower so it will fit.

    Kh-101/102 are air force weapons, so there might be a new generation cross service weapon that fits both launcher systems.

    AFAIK the Kh-101/102 missiles are only about 7.5m long so length is no problem....

    Like that, no. You would need to adapt the fixation points on the missiles and add a booster which will make the missile longer. In terms of weight and size it should fit but it's not really necessary because they already have Kalibr.

    So why did they need Kh-101 and Kh-102 as they already had Kh-55?

    Kalibr is an old missile that needs an upgrade.

    It makes sense to upgrade it because so many Russian Navy vessels will be able to carry the new weapon and take advantage of the performance increase.

    The real question is, how many long range subsonic land attack cruise missiles does Russia want to operate?

    The Kh-101/102 as well as the Kh-55 are made by Raduga, while Novator makes the Kalibr (SS-N-21).
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Isos on Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:22 pm

    So why did they need Kh-101 and Kh-102 as they already had Kh-55?

    Kalibr is an old missile that needs an upgrade.

    It makes sense to upgrade it because so many Russian Navy vessels will be able to carry the new weapon and take advantage of the performance increase.

    The real question is, how many long range subsonic land attack cruise missiles does Russia want to operate?

    The Kh-101/102 as well as the Kh-55 are made by Raduga, while Novator makes the Kalibr (SS-N-21).

    Kh-55 had a CEP of 200m. Most of, if not all of them would be nuclear. So they had 0 missiles for conventional Attack that's why they made Kh-101 and used this new version for a nuclear more stealth version that is the 102.

    Like I already said not long ago, the fires of Kalibrs in Syria are probably tests of new hardwares and softwares in the missiles each time. Those fire last week shouldn't be the same as those fired the first time.

    Tomahawk is older but still very dangerous and capable missile. It's not because new technology is available that the older one becomes obsolete. BTW  they are using those Kalibr for the basis of the Iskander cruise missile, not the Kh-101.

    Sure they have to upgrade it but why replace it by something that will have the same caracteristics ?? I've read that Russia upgraded its Kh-101 after the first fires in Syria, so it means they were not perfect. If you tell to replace by a hypersonic missiles with a range of 10 000km, OK but Kh-101 and Kalibr have the same caracteristics, but kalibr consists of a family of missile so its logic for the navy to keep them for the maintenance and logistics ...

    The main problem here is that anyone who follows the military technologies of russians try to use any weapon for any mission on any plateform available and then you have officials that talk total BS and less than 10% of the so called projects are actually real projects. You have laser weapons on Mig-35 (that doesn't even still have a proper AESA), you have supercarriers, small carriers, 1000+ project of vehicles of all types ... and in reallty we see just some corvettes and some upgraded t-72 going in service ...

    The number of articles in pro Russian medias that I've seen about super-weapons where they quotes officials in the last years is unbelievable, total BS each time. Every one of them had no future.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:35 pm

    Even if it's not part of the same weapons family, the capability of striking targets over 5000km away is simply too attractive, a modded variant of the Kh-101 is probly inevitable, especially given the worsening situation across the western border.

    As for upgrades, other than minor software modifications i don't any major upgrades for the Kalibr.

    Come on Isos, it's not that bad, the S-400, Tor-m2s, Buk-M2 and now M3s, Pantsir-S1, Su-34, Su-35, BTR-82A, Ratnik and Verba.
    And we know, nothing is gonna stop the deployment of Zircon and Sarmat.

    Also we're getting way of track: http://www.russiadefence.net/t1032p425-naval-weapon-systems-technology
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:20 am

    Kh-55 had a CEP of 200m. Most of, if not all of them would be nuclear. So they had 0 missiles for conventional Attack that's why they made Kh-101 and used this new version for a nuclear more stealth version that is the 102.

    They didn't have any aircraft large enough to carry cruise missiles that were tasked with conventional strike to use conventionally armed cruise missiles anyway.

    They had nuke armed Kh-55s and then nuke armed Kh-555s during the 1980s and 1990s.

    The Kh101/102 introduced terminal guidance that combined accurate gyros (ie ring laser gyros) and GLONASS guidance that was not available in the 1980s and 1990s.

    It was the same at sea.... the SS-N-21 was nuclear only but the Kalibr family introduced accurate guidance that allowed point targets to be engaged with precision so a conventional warhead became an option.

    Kh-101 and Kh-102 are the exact same missile with the same guidance and the same engine... the only difference is warhead.

    Like I already said not long ago, the fires of Kalibrs in Syria are probably tests of new hardwares and softwares in the missiles each time. Those fire last week shouldn't be the same as those fired the first time.

    They will be continually improving the design but at the end of the day they would not use something otherwise untested.... on a range they can examine the target and check for performance more accurately than a strike in enemy territory during a war.


    They will test performance against real targets which is also useful, but they wont have a first test in a war.

    Tomahawk is older but still very dangerous and capable missile. It's not because new technology is available that the older one becomes obsolete. BTW they are using those Kalibr for the basis of the Iskander cruise missile, not the Kh-101.

    They are using Kalibr for Iskander because Raduga makes aircraft launched missiles and is part of a Tactical missiles company.

    Novator is part of Almaz-Antei and makes lots of missiles for the ground forces...

    Sure they have to upgrade it but why replace it by something that will have the same caracteristics ??

    What do you mean same characteristics?

    Kalibr has a flight range of 2,500km, Kh-101 has a flight range of 5,500km.

    I've read that Russia upgraded its Kh-101 after the first fires in Syria, so it means they were not perfect.

    They upgraded pretty much everything they have tested in Syria... that was the point of testing them in Syria.

    If you tell to replace by a hypersonic missiles with a range of 10 000km, OK but Kh-101 and Kalibr have the same caracteristics, but kalibr consists of a family of missile so its logic for the navy to keep them for the maintenance and logistics ...

    Kalibr wont be replaced by a hypersonic missile.. Onyx will be replaced by hypersonic Ziron. 2,500km range Kalibr will be replaced with 5,500km range Kalibr-2.

    [quote] You have laser weapons on Mig-35 (that doesn't even still have a proper AESA), you have supercarriers, small carriers, 1000+ project of vehicles of all types ... and in reallty we see just some corvettes and some upgraded t-72 going in service ...[/qutoe]

    What the fuck are you whining about?

    MiG-35 has DIRCMs... DIRCMs use infra red lasers to dazzle and damage the optical guidance sensors of IR and IIR and optically guided missiles.

    It does not carry a laser gun because the 30mm cannon it is fitted with is much more effective and much cheaper.

    They are developing a three whole new vehicle families that will replace all current existing types... the west does not even come close, though it has been talking about doing something rather less ambitious for the last 30 years they have not come up with anything.

    The number of articles in pro Russian medias that I've seen about super-weapons where they quotes officials in the last years is unbelievable, total BS each time. Every one of them had no future.

    Super weapons?

    PAK FA... getting ready for serial production.

    Iskander... in widespread use and full production.

    S-400 ... in use and in full production and being exported.

    S-500 practically ready entering production in the next year or two.

    Corvettes that have more fucking firepower than any NATO country including the US... which US corvette can destroy precision land targets 2,500km away?

    Corvettes that can do what 10 years ago only a US cruiser or US attack submarine could do...

    Ratnik, Verba, late model Pantsir and BUK and TOR are pretty untouchable... Kornet, Hermes, I could go on but why bother.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Isos on Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:08 am

    What do you mean same characteristics?

    Kalibr has a flight range of 2,500km, Kh-101 has a flight range of 5,500km.

    Subsonic with low flight profile and low RCS. 2500km is more than enough. It is already hard to spot a submarine or a fighter bomber 500km away, at 2500 km they will be safe. At 5,550km your target should be static because it moves it pretty hard to follow her.



    They upgraded pretty much everything they have tested in Syria... that was the point of testing them in Syria.


    Yeah that's what I said. Upgrading is good. No need for a naval Khh-101 when you can upgrade and use Kalibr.

    What the fuck are you whining about?

    MiG-35 has DIRCMs... DIRCMs use infra red lasers to dazzle and damage the optical guidance sensors of IR and IIR and optically guided missiles.

    It does not carry a laser gun because the 30mm cannon it is fitted with is much more effective and much cheaper.

    They are developing a three whole new vehicle families that will replace all current existing types... the west does not even come close, though it has been talking about doing something rather less ambitious for the last 30 years they have not come up with anything.

    I'm just saying that pro russian media make a lot of article about future russian armement where they basicly say BS and then we don't hear about them anymore like putting lasers on Mig-35 or Something like that.

    Super weapons?

    PAK FA... getting ready for serial production.

    Iskander... in widespread use and full production.

    S-400 ... in use and in full production and being exported.

    S-500 practically ready entering production in the next year or two.

    Corvettes that have more fucking firepower than any NATO country including the US... which US corvette can destroy precision land targets 2,500km away?

    Corvettes that can do what 10 years ago only a US cruiser or US attack submarine could do...

    Ratnik, Verba, late model Pantsir and BUK and TOR are pretty untouchable... Kornet, Hermes, I could go on but why bother

    Pak Fa and armata are getting ready for production but the numbers won't be as expected ( we heard of like 200 pak fa and 2500+ T-14)

    S-400 is just a s-300 PMU3. So more a upgrade of S-300 than a all new system.
    S-500 is good on paper but thye have yet to be deployed. But they shoulld have them as they build S-400 in big numbers that won't be a problem.

    Corvettes are good but I prefere to be in a cruiser ... And they are not that much impressive. They have only 8 cruise missiles while a US subs or ship can have hundreds of them ...

    US have more cruisers than Russia has modern corvettes ... The reality is here. If you look at the history, corvettes were not a mach to airforces or big ships specially now that cruisers operate with helicopters and drones. Russia couldn't reach US with those corvettes even with a 5500 km cruise missile. Even near Syria it is hard for them to maintain a true naval group because those corvette can stay 1 week there and must go home. A cruiser can be there for a months easily

    The problem I was refering to is that they make a LOT of versions of anything they have and talk a lot about how they are fantastic toys but produce just a small part of them in very low numbers.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:08 pm

    I posted this in another thread, but it's relevant here too:
    New Skyph (Skif) sea bottom ICBM:
    http://svpressa.ru/war21/article/186921/?cba=1 skif
    They can put them in the Okhotsk Sea too. Cheaper than old Delta III/IVs & new Borey SSBNs that also can safely deploy there & in the Arctic only. If these new ICBMs deployed in sufficient #s, at least some of the subs already built could be converted to SSGNs, perhaps eliminating the need for a few new Yasen SSGNs.
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Kimppis on Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:51 pm

    Isos, on Armata and Su-57:

    Yeah, by the mid-2030s, that's still going to happen and that was always the plan. Of course the production run lasts decades.
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:24 pm

    Hmmm doubt Raduga will make any naval missiles. If Yasen is going to get naval "Kh-101" It would come from OKB Novator or NPO mashinostroyenia
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:35 pm

    '
    Documentary about Kazan SSGN. Lots of close-ups. You guys can now count tubes and whatnot. Enlighten me...

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:14 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:'
    Documentary about Kazan SSGN. Lots of close-ups. You guys can now count tubes and whatnot. Enlighten me...


    A good chunk of the program was about metallurgy and special processes. Titanium welding in Argon gas atmosphere was shown.
    Another chunk of the program was about the launch process: from factory to a dock - move the dock out of the premises - flood the dock
    The hull is revolutionary, it is not the traditional double hull used by previous generation Soviet subs and it is not a single hull either.
    Mentioned that the Kazan is multifunctional and tasked to destroy other subs, surface ships and land targets.
    Armament includes Kalibr, Onyx, torpedoes with over 100 km range as well as special mines that shoot torpedoes.
    The number of missiles/tubes was not revealed. But they mentioned that it carries 30 torpedoes of various types.
    The sub has comprehensive latest technology detection, jamming and communication systems.

    There will be a part II.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:12 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:...................
    The hull is revolutionary, it is not the traditional double hull used by previous generation Soviet subs and it is not a single hull either.
    Mentioned that the Kazan is multifunctional and tasked to destroy other subs, surface ships and land targets.
    Armament includes Kalibr, Onyx, torpedoes with over 100 km range as well as special mines that shoot torpedoes.
    The number of missiles/tubes was not revealed. But they mentioned that it carries 30 torpedoes of various types.
    The sub has comprehensive latest technology detection, jamming and communication systems.
    ............

    That's a damn impressive list. If it hauls 30 torpedoes somewhere in there then it most likely has at least just as many missiles in the back.

    This is why I always say that if they have to choose between fixing Lazarev (or even getting new large surface ship) or building another Yasen then Yasen wins any day of the week.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:00 pm

    The problem there is that for a sub to be effective it needs to kill something... a surface ship can have an effect just by being there and not killing anyone.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  George1 on Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:38 am



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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:52 am

    GarryB wrote:The problem there is that for a sub to be effective it needs to kill something... a surface ship can have an effect just by being there and not killing anyone.

    Correct but you can just give that job to corvettes at fraction of the cost, no need for battlecruisers or anything...
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    x_54_u43

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  x_54_u43 on Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:15 am

    TheArmenian wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:'
    Documentary about Kazan SSGN. Lots of close-ups. You guys can now count tubes and whatnot. Enlighten me...


    A good chunk of the program was about metallurgy and special processes. Titanium welding in Argon gas atmosphere was shown.
    Another chunk of the program was about the launch process: from factory to a dock - move the dock out of the premises - flood the dock
    The hull is revolutionary, it is not the traditional double hull used by previous generation Soviet subs and it is not a single hull either.
    Mentioned that the Kazan is multifunctional and tasked to destroy other subs, surface ships and land targets.
    Armament includes Kalibr, Onyx, torpedoes with over 100 km range as well as special mines that shoot torpedoes.
    The number of missiles/tubes was not revealed. But they mentioned that it carries 30 torpedoes of various types.
    The sub has comprehensive latest technology detection, jamming and communication systems.

    There will be a part II.

    I think the second part will be the most interesting. At the very end of the episode, they showed a preview of the second part, and it showed a snippet where the presenter was being shown a 3d model of the entire submarine internals, detailed enough where you could put on VR goggles and literally walk through every part of the submarine. This is pretty encouraging to see, as it shows the Russia is keeping up with new trends in shipbuilding.

    3d models like mentioned earlier are fantastic at teaching the crew and maintenance workers a very detailed picture of the ship and its individual components before it is even finished, saves a lot on training costs and such.

    EDIT: 100km torp range was the biggest thing I noticed about the episode. Vasty exceeds Spearfish and MK48s, anyone have more info on the torps? I noticed in the episode that they showed two models off, one with contra-rotating naked blades, and the other with a pumpjet.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  hoom on Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:03 am

    That's a damn impressive list. If it hauls 30 torpedoes somewhere in there then it most likely has at least just as many missiles in the back.
    We already know its got 8 VLS hatches with 4 missiles per hatch.
    But some impressively clear overhead views Shocked

    Metallurgy & Special Processes were pretty interesting even without knowing what is being said.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:02 am

    Correct but you can just give that job to corvettes at fraction of the cost, no need for battlecruisers or anything...

    No you really can't.

    Sending a corvette halfway around the world says you don't have a blue water navy... the support fleet would be enormous to get a corvette that far.

    If the purpose is to intimidate then sending a group of ships is needed.. a large cruiser means something a corvette can never mean, but if it is just to launch one cruise missile then a Tu-160M could do it faster to most places.

    A cruiser can stay there a week and be a continuous threat if follow up shots are needed...
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:29 am

    Yasen front, Oscar back:

    Sailor

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  Sailor on Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:12 pm

    From the Russian forum.
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    ZoA

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    Re: Project 885: Yasen class

    Post  ZoA on Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:27 pm

    Sailor wrote:From the Russian forum.

    It's beautiful! love

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