Project 885: Yasen class

Graney class nuclear submarines are designed to launch a variety of long-range cruise missiles (up to 3,100 miles or 5,000 km)

Since when does a P-800 go 5,000km?

Vladimir79 wrote:

Graney class nuclear submarines are designed to launch a variety of long-range cruise missiles (up to 3,100 miles or 5,000 km)

Since when does a P-800 go 5,000km?

Since the navy corrected statics LOL

A P-800 Oniks has no land attack capability unless they are talking about the Brahmos.

The only other land attack cruise missile with conventional and nuke armed versions with a range of 5,000km is the Kh-101/Kh-102.

It says cruise missiles with a range of up to 5,000km which clearly suggests they have also developed a sub version of the USUK universal cruise missile vertical launch system... which would allow the sub to be loaded with anti ship (Oniks, Yakhont (for export), Brahmos, Klub subsonic, Klub supersonic) Land attack (Kh-101, Kh-102, Brahmos, Klub subsonic), and anti sub (91RTE2... though as it is a sub it will also likely be able to fire 91RE1 missiles through the standard torpedo tubes too).

Makes it a very multi purpose vessel.

Russia plans by the end of year start construction of 3rd Graney class sub.

Russia set to start construction of 3rd Graney class nuclear
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110317/163057922.html

and what is more trilling by the end of 2020 plans to have 10 of them

03.18.1911 THE RUSSIAN NAVY WILL RECEIVE UP TO 2020 UP TO TEN NUCLEAR SUBMARINES SUCH AS "ASH"
http://translate.google.hr/translate?hl=hr&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://www.militaryparitet.com/&twu=1

Excellent news... 24 launch tubes for missiles would make for a formidable and flexible payload and of course being vertical launch there is no load times, the sub is still free to use its torpedo tubes for other things and the weapons don't take up torpedo room space.
It would also be perfectly possible for a submarine tender to meet a sub at sea and potentially reload new missiles if needed.

With 24 launch tubes an attack could be optimised with Supersonic Klubs to penetrate capable defences followed by Brahmos type missiles once the defences are alerted to the attack, and a couple of subsonic Klubs launched to arrive when the fleet is recovering from the attack and perhaps starting to withdraw.

Im interested to its 24 VLS tubes?

That seems a loot.

I am guessing 24 tubes will be standard fit for destroyers and destroyer sized vessels, though there is some speculation they might have 32.

The post above seems to specify 24 for this sub however... the new missiles are 2-3 tons and long and slim, unlike the previous OSCAR class SSGNs with 24 launchers for the 7 ton Granit missiles stored between the inner and outer hull.

Viktor wrote:Russia plans by the end of year start construction of 3rd Graney class sub.

Since when do they call them Graney?

"Navy will receive up to ten Yasen class subs till 2020"

And it seems Gary was right, they intend to build SSGN:s and SSBN:s, not SSN:s
Thats probably the right thing when shipbuilding and budget are strained.
I guess the Akulas have a fair time left in service, 10-20 years.

GarryB wrote:Excellent news... 24 launch tubes for missiles would make for a formidable and flexible payload and of course being vertical launch there is no load times, the sub is still free to use its torpedo tubes for other things and the weapons don't take up torpedo room space.
It would also be perfectly possible for a submarine tender to meet a sub at sea and potentially reload new missiles if needed.

With 24 launch tubes an attack could be optimised with Supersonic Klubs to penetrate capable defences followed by Brahmos type missiles once the defences are alerted to the attack, and a couple of subsonic Klubs launched to arrive when the fleet is recovering from the attack and perhaps starting to withdraw.

And yes, a good idea to be ready with torpedos after you fire a missile. As its going to be heard and seen from very far away.
If your being stalked by a SSN, you`ll be getting a torpedo up your butt in no time.

@runaway - new SSN is in design and funds have being provided by 19 trillion defence budget plan.

As well as new close cycle engine SSK.

With the USUK type vertical launch systems the simple addition of a small section fitted with these launchers can immediately convert an SSN directly into a SSGN, and more importantly a new type of SSGN for the Russians.
Previously an SSGN for the Russians was an Echo, or Charlie, or Oscar (or Papa or Juliet), type vessel that was generally quite large and had large external mountings for enormous missiles like the 7 ton Granit in the case of the Oscar.
Most of these missiles were dedicated anti carrier missiles that could be used against most ships but could not be used for much else.

The new USUK launchers allow the use of anti ship missiles of several types, land attack missiles of several types, and even anti submarine missiles that deliver torpedoes to target areas 40-50km away in seconds using a supersonic rocket. More importantly the vertical launch tubes can take any of these weapons and any combinations of these weapons making it far more flexible and capable than any previous system used on a Russian or Soviet sub.

The question would be why would they bother with just a SSN?

Even a very small sub can have a section added to make it much more flexible and capable... and of course you could load your torpedo tubes with a couple of torpedoes to fire on anything that fires at you for launching a missile, plus have a couple of Paket anti torpedo torpedoes ready to fire at any torpedoes fired at you, plus perhaps a decoy torpedo to distract anything fired at you too... and with all your torpedo tubes tasked you can still fire any or all of your missiles because they are all ready to fire and don't need reloading.

Viktor wrote:@runaway - new SSN is in design and funds have being provided by 19 trillion defence budget plan.

As well as new close cycle engine SSK.

Sure its a SSN, and not a new SSGN? The Yasen is very state of the art, but was designed in the 80-s.
Not improbable its a new SSGN , as time from design to serial production is 10-15 years. And i am very interested in news about this new SSK design, perhaps premature, as russians are new with AIP.

GarryB wrote:The question would be why would they bother with just a SSN?

Even a very small sub can have a section added to make it much more flexible and capable... and of course you could load your torpedo tubes with a couple of torpedoes to fire on anything that fires at you for launching a missile, plus have a couple of Paket anti torpedo torpedoes ready to fire at any torpedoes fired at you, plus perhaps a decoy torpedo to distract anything fired at you too... and with all your torpedo tubes tasked you can still fire any or all of your missiles because they are all ready to fire and don't need reloading.

That makes sense, but it also makes sense in having a smaller SSN, dedicated to ASW and antisurface, protecting SSBN:s and SSGN:s.
In fact, lot of sense.

But i am worried about the Soviet-Russian short lifespans for subs. The Alfas were decomissioned after just 10 years, so the first Akulas. And the very large and expensive Typhoons after just 10- 15 years.

In contrast, the US subs are in service 15-25 years, and in many cases longer.
The Brittish subs have lifespans of 30 years! Altough i am sceptical about the Brittish quality. So whats wrong with Soviet-Russian ones?

The Alphas had expensive but very sophisticated reactor designs. The coolant wasn't water... it was sodium... the metal. The huge problem of course is that with a normal reactor you can shut it down when you want, but when the coolant is a solid metal at normal temperatures the obviously you can shut it down... ever.
The Alphas also had a specific mission... that of sort of an underwater interceptor. When it first sailed under a US carrier group at 40Knts the commander of the carrier group admitted there wasn't a whole heck of a lot he could do about it... even if it was war time and he had a free hand.
BTW it is not widely recognised but the Alpha wasn't the fastest Soviet sub... the Papa class was. It could do 44Knts, while the Alpha could do 42Knts.

The Typhoon class vessel was designed to counter the Ohio class and its normal load of 20 missiles each with 10 warheads meant it was the most powerfully armed vessel at sea. With the plans to sign the START II treaty and then the Moscow treaty and now the new START treaty however the Typhoon is pointless.

Under the current Start treaty both sides will be limited to 1,500 warheads... that means 500 ICBM, 500 cruise missiles delivered by aircraft, and 500 SLBMs. A single Typhoon carrys 200 warheads on its own, so the allowable fleet would be 2 and a half Typhoons. Not very practical. The Typhoons actually were very quiet despite their size, their propellers had shrouds which covered the blade tips where noise propagates from at high speed and the huge space between the inner and outer hulls was filled with noise absorbing material.

Its purpose was as a revenge sub... it could sit for months under the ice caps and can surface through 3m of ice. It had a very high free board so it sat very high in the water when afloat so the ice around it protected it from torpedo attack.

Both the Akulas and Typhoons were expensive cold war boats... it made a lot of sense to withdraw them from service when the cold war ended. The talk of modifying the Typhoons is based on the fact that they still have plenty of life left in them and their size means they could be put to use in a wide range of roles... my personal favourite would be as a mother ship for DSRVs and unmanned under water vessels and used for research and rescue.

Third Severodvinsk-type 4-generation nuclear submarine (Project 885 Yasen) will be laid down this year, said a spokesman for the Navy on Thursday.

Construction of the project's lead sub SSGN Severodvinsk will be finished in 2011; upgraded submarine of this project – SSGN Kazan – is being built at present.

"It is planned to lay down the first serial submarine of such new design in 2011", said the Navy's representative.

As for him, test launches of long-range submarine-based cruise missile system Caliber were successfully held last year. Some of them were conducted during Vostok-2010 large-scale exercise.

SSBN Yury Dolgoruky finished sea trials program and began state trials last year, said the Navy spokesman. Construction of two 4-generation nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines Alexander Nevsky and Vladimir Monomakh is in progress.

On March 19 Russia is going to celebrate the 105th anniversary of Russian submarine force. Festive activities will take place in the Navy Main HQ and all fleets.

On the threshold of the holiday, Navy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky congratulated all submariners. "Modern submarine fleet is a quintessence of progressive shipbuilding theory and revolutionary ideas in underwater vehicles development. It is a result of titanic work done by scientists and designers, engineers and shipbuilders", said the Navy CIC.

He also said the construction of nuclear-powered submarines is in the limelight today. "Now the building of new-generation ballistic missile subs is well financed", pointed out Vysotsky.

http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=11770

Russia's new attack submarine goes for sea trials

20:48 12/09/2011
ST. PETERSBURG, September 12 (RIA Novosti)

Russia's first Graney class nuclear-powered attack submarine set course on Monday for scheduled sea trials, the Sevmash shipyard said.

The Severodvinsk has been under construction at the Sevmash shipyard in northern Russia since 1993 and was launched in June last year after numerous delays due to financing problems. The submarine is expected to enter service with the Russian Navy by the end of this year.

Graney class nuclear submarines are designed to launch a variety of long-range cruise missiles (up to 3,100 miles or 5,000 km), with conventional or nuclear warheads, and effectively engage submarines, surface warships and land-based targets.

The submarine's armament includes 24 cruise missiles and eight torpedo launchers, as well as mines and anti-ship missiles.

The second vessel of the Graney class, the Kazan, is being built at Sevmash while the construction of the third submarine will begin this year.

The Russian Navy plans to receive up to 10 Graney class subs by 2020.

I would suspect if it has a payload of 24 missiles then each UKSK launcher holds 8 missiles so it must be fitted with three launchers... here is the pamphlet for the export version:





Of course these don't mention the Kh-101/Kh-102 because at 5,000km range each these weapons are not for export, yet for the Russian navy simply by fitting all their vessels from corvette size and up in surface ships and in SSGNs, both conventional and nuclear powered they get the choice of weapons from supersonic rockets that can deliver a torpedo 40km away in a minute or two, through to a range of land attack and anti ship missiles including the Club or Klub or Kalibre family and Brahmos... and eventually likely Brahmos II plus if they wish Yakhont or Oniks, plus strategic range cruise missiles.

Quite impressive firepower, while at the same time properly standardised so it is not expensive or complicated for deployment and operations.

From the outside it would be near impossible to determine the role of the sub... it could be in an area denial role with 24 anti sub rocket launched torpedoes near a choke point where western subs have to transit, or it could have a formidable combination of supersonic anti ship missiles like Brahmos, longer ranged Oniks and a domestic version of Klub that is not limited to 300km range, or it could have a strategic role with 2,000km range Club/granit or 5,000km range Kh-102 and Kh-101 missiles.

With only 6 planned subs of this class, they must intend to build a true SSN. A cheaper and much larger class. Otherwise, 3 subs in each of the ocean navies isnt much.
It will be very interesting to follow the project, as now its active!The mixtures of missiles is impressive, and as you say, offers very flexible loadouts.

runaway wrote:With only 6 planned subs of this class, they must intend to build a true SSN. A cheaper and much larger class. Otherwise, 3 subs in each of the ocean navies isnt much.
It will be very interesting to follow the project, as now its active!The mixtures of missiles is impressive, and as you say, offers very flexible loadouts.

10 planed with new SSN in pipes. Navy priority is Pacific where most of them will most likely go. There is need to counter rising China ambitions.

I suspect they will want a smaller lighter cheaper sub they can build in large numbers very similar to what the Americans are doing.

The Russians have the advantage that they also have conventional boats which are much cheaper vessels and are actually quite capable when their limitations are taken into account.

I would think forces in the Pacific will be increase as Asia will become an important focus for Russia in the future.

Problem is price hike of Graney sub. Cost of first unit was close to 2 bin, but now the second supposed to cost 4bin. Thats why no contract has being placed jet.
If such case remains RuAN could easily drop Graney sub with its double firepower and 50% larger displacement as Virginia class as cold war relic.

Well the thing is that the UKSK is modular and could even be fitted smaller vessels... perhaps instead of 3, they could make do with only 2... or perhaps completely redesign the vessels and fit 4.

Perhaps, but the Yasen sub is probably more of an SSGN with huge mission capabilities.
A dedicated SSN should and could be half the size, no VLK, SHKVAL, torpedoes and case of a large series, only 1/4 of the Yasen price.
In any case, the Akulas are rapidly reaching the end of their service life, and a replacement is badly needed.
As we can predict 6-10 years before a new design SSN could begin serial production. And that is optimistic.

I think the vertical launch tubes add flexibility and capability that you simply don't get from torpedoes alone.

I am pretty sure they will keep the vertical launch tubes... they have had custom designed tubes for specific missiles since the Charlie class and they don't have to make the vessels expensive.

Lets face it, if they can fit one VLS to a corvette then they can afford to fit a few to their subs.

In fact considering the lock on after launch work they will be sweating over now for their 5th gen fighter, perhaps even a vertical launch system with SAMs might even become something that they might consider... nothing like a relatively small highly automated nuke sub with a battery of 20 S-500s sitting in the North Sea...

Well, maybe you're right. At 120m and 7500 tons, its not so big after all. Even.if you reduce the sub to 90m and took away the missiles, it wouldn't be so much cheaper and it would lose its edge.
The big issue is really how to be able to build that many subs that are needed. I have heard the figure of 50, and that should mean 10SSBN and 40 SSN.
I Would like to see the some estimates of how good the Yasen really is, compared to Virgina and Akula. But perhaps we will have to wait for the seatrials to be completed first. And what's the progress of the St Petersburg class Ss sub? It seems to be the ultimate sub in the Baltic and the black sea, so why build old kilos? I know not all new subs are succeses, is st Petersburg subs a failure?

Do you mean the Lada class?

I heard they were having problems with the Sonar system, but that they sorted that out.

I would suspect Kilos would be made because it is available and proven and cheaper.

...actually having looked at the wiki page I rather suspect that the delay has probably been the fuel cell technology they wanted for it.

Traditional fuel cell technology requires the storage of dangerous chemicals like Hydrogen and Oxygen, but I read recently they were working on something rather different and new and quiet.

Yes, i read about a AIP module you can incorporate into existing submarines.
Something with processing diesel into a chemical reaction.
Also with new ION batteries.

I hope this will be incorporated into both Kilo and Lada subs.

These subs will be the ultimate subs in Baltic and Black sea. Also, they would certainly be of immense use in Pacific theater, along the coasts of China, Japan and Russia.

The Yasen sub will be able to deploy everywere and anytime in the oceans, not so with the SS subs. But with the price range, 2 Bilion UsD against 100 Milion UsD,
my guess is that we will sea the SS sub taking over lot of SSN duties, in near waters that is.

I didn't know it used diesel, but on a diesel electric it makes a lot of sense because you carry lots of diesel anyway.

The new batteries are Lithium Ion batteries, which are not new, but they claim to have improved performance by 40% or something, which is pretty significant for anything that uses a battery.