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    Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:49 pm

    Well about time dam.

    The pacific fleet should be getting the next five if I understand right after that this class won't be produced anymore.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:46 am

    Wasn't the sovershenny batch supposed to already have UKSK VLS instead of the obsolescent uran?
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    George1

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:24 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Wasn't the sovershenny batch supposed to already have UKSK VLS instead of the obsolescent uran?

    No the 20385 (Gremyashchiy-class) will have UKSK VLS


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    George1

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  George1 on Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:27 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Well about time dam.

    The pacific fleet should be getting the next five if I understand right after that this class won't be produced anymore.

    Gromkiy, Aldar Tsydenzhapov and Rezkiy will join Pacific fleet

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2405593.html

    so there are 2 remain for other fleet, Retiviy and Strogiy


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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:07 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Wasn't the sovershenny batch supposed to already have UKSK VLS instead of the obsolescent uran?

    What exactly is obsolete about Uran? Care to back up your claim with some well reasoned arguments?

    No?.... didn't think so....
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:21 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Wasn't the sovershenny batch supposed to already have UKSK VLS instead of the obsolescent uran?

    What exactly is obsolete about Uran?  Care to back up your claim with some well reasoned arguments?

    No?....  didn't think so....

    You are all calling Harpoon obsolete because its subsonic without terminal boosters... now somehow Uran is top-notch on other hand Smile? Reality check son. lol1
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:54 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Wasn't the sovershenny batch supposed to already have UKSK VLS instead of the obsolescent uran?

    What exactly is obsolete about Uran?  Care to back up your claim with some well reasoned arguments?

    No?....  didn't think so....
    Compared to the Kalibr and onyx it certainly is obsolete.
    If they could install UKSK on the Buyans, why not on the modernized stereguschy?
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:06 pm

    George1 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Wasn't the sovershenny batch supposed to already have UKSK VLS instead of the obsolescent uran?

    No the 20385 (Gremyashchiy-class) will have UKSK VLS
    Sorry. I mistook them for being the same thing as upgraded stereguschiys. Will the Gremyaschiys ever be completed?
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:03 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Wasn't the sovershenny batch supposed to already have UKSK VLS instead of the obsolescent uran?

    What exactly is obsolete about Uran?  Care to back up your claim with some well reasoned arguments?

    No?....  didn't think so....

    You are all calling Harpoon obsolete because its subsonic without terminal boosters... now somehow Uran is top-notch on other hand Smile? Reality check son. lol1

    I don't beleive I ever called Harpoon obselete.  its still an effective missile against small-medium combatants even if its single-shot kill probability is probably low against a competent CIWS.  Uran is Harpoon class, and its a lot smaller than Kalibre/Onix, and cheaper both in terms ordnance cost and shipboard installation/space requirements.  For a 2000T corvette destined to serve in the Baltic, its not a bad choice.  I'd like to see future Steregushchys upgraded with UKSK, especially for Northern and Pacific fleets, but that doesn't mean Uran is obselete.  

    P.S what is this "son" bullshit?  I don't I've ever disrespected you in any posting, so pls explain...
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Isos on Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:22 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Wasn't the sovershenny batch supposed to already have UKSK VLS instead of the obsolescent uran?

    What exactly is obsolete about Uran?  Care to back up your claim with some well reasoned arguments?

    No?....  didn't think so....

    You are all calling Harpoon obsolete because its subsonic without terminal boosters... now somehow Uran is top-notch on other hand Smile? Reality check son. lol1

    I don't beleive I ever called Harpoon obselete.  its still an effective missile against small-medium combatants even if its single-shot kill probability is probably low against a competent CIWS.  Uran is Harpoon class, and its a lot smaller than Kalibre/Onix, and cheaper both in terms ordnance cost and shipboard installation/space requirements.  For a 2000T corvette destined to serve in the Baltic, its not a bad choice.  I'd like to see future Steregushchys upgraded with UKSK, especially for Northern and Pacific fleets, but that doesn't mean Uran is obselete.  

    P.S what is this "son" bullshit?  I don't I've ever disrespected you in any posting, so pls explain...

    According to wikipedia, there is a variant with 16 Uran for the export. That would give them nice power-up.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Militarov on Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:00 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Wasn't the sovershenny batch supposed to already have UKSK VLS instead of the obsolescent uran?

    What exactly is obsolete about Uran?  Care to back up your claim with some well reasoned arguments?

    No?....  didn't think so....

    You are all calling Harpoon obsolete because its subsonic without terminal boosters... now somehow Uran is top-notch on other hand Smile? Reality check son. lol1

    I don't beleive I ever called Harpoon obselete.  its still an effective missile against small-medium combatants even if its single-shot kill probability is probably low against a competent CIWS.  Uran is Harpoon class, and its a lot smaller than Kalibre/Onix, and cheaper both in terms ordnance cost and shipboard installation/space requirements.  For a 2000T corvette destined to serve in the Baltic, its not a bad choice.  I'd like to see future Steregushchys upgraded with UKSK, especially for Northern and Pacific fleets, but that doesn't mean Uran is obselete.  

    P.S what is this "son" bullshit?  I don't I've ever disrespected you in any posting, so pls explain...

    "You are all calling Harpoon obsolete", there are literally 10 pages on this forum written about how Harpoon sucks. Then someone comes and says how Uran is great, and everyone starts nodding like on command, its called double fkn standards. You know.. same double standards everyone here talks about when they mention other military forums, Mess, ARmored Warfare and whatnot.

    Double, standards, i am just pointing that out.

    P.S. I was not insulting in any way, its a buzzword.
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    PapaDragon

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    20385 was supposed to replace 20380

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:32 pm

    hoom wrote:Didn't stop them with 20385 -> 20386 dunno

    How come?

    20385 was supposed to replace 20380 but project was not up to specs. There are unlikely to be more after first two.

    20386 will be replacing both.

    Models of vessels will change over time but target number for every class (corvette, frigate, etc...) will stay the same.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:33 pm

    Harpoon isn't the same missile when it came out...it has been updated through it's life. It's a capable missile.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:23 pm

    Once again, where are the Gremyaschiys? Its been 5 years since the first one was laid down. Any info on their progress?
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:40 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Once again, where are the Gremyaschiys? Its been 5 years since the first one was laid down. Any info on their progress?


    Last I heard the first should be floated out this year and commissioned the next.

    The second 2019.

    Since the whole engine cancelling thing these ships have hit hard times.

    Granted their build time is nothing new for the Russian Navy fairly standard so far. Both should be going to the NF
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:53 am

    "You are all calling Harpoon obsolete",

    Considering it is the best anti ship missile the US Navy has and that navy is fucking perfect and has 10 super carrier groups and that does not include Marine carriers... it is pretty mediocre... but not actually obsolete.

    Ironic because it is western fanboys that think something is either perfect or obsolete.

    Look at the Su-33... good enough for the job... for which it gets criticism...

    Then someone comes and says how Uran is great, and everyone starts nodding like on command, its called double fkn standards.

    Then someone comes and says the Uran is good enough for that class of patrol ship... and then you go ballistic...


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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Militarov on Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:33 am

    GarryB wrote:
    "You are all calling Harpoon obsolete",

    Considering it is the best anti ship missile the US Navy has and that navy is fucking perfect and has 10 super carrier groups and that does not include Marine carriers... it is pretty mediocre... but not actually obsolete.

    Ironic because it is western fanboys that think something is either perfect or obsolete.

    Look at the Su-33... good enough for the job... for which it gets criticism...

    Then someone comes and says how Uran is great, and everyone starts nodding like on command, its called double fkn standards.

    Then someone comes and says the Uran is good enough for that class of patrol ship... and then you go ballistic...

    I dont find Harpoon or Uran "obsolete"... rather... mediocre, lets use that word as you put it.

    I just find it amusing from the point of double standards, when there was topic on Belgian navy (i think) everyone was saying how "Meh, Harpoons on XXXXX ship, it sucks". I just dont like that, thats all.

    Well today SM-6 can be used to strike surface combatants too if required so its not really only anti-ship missile they have, only dedicated one, yes.

    I am not fan of Su-33 and you know that.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:13 am

    I dont find Harpoon or Uran "obsolete"... rather... mediocre, lets use that word as you put it.

    Fitted to border patrol vessels it is expensive overkill.

    Fitted to a light corvette or light frigate then it is fine.

    Primary anti ship weapon for the navy and it is mediocre and inadequate.

    I just find it amusing from the point of double standards, when there was topic on Belgian navy (i think) everyone was saying how "Meh, Harpoons on XXXXX ship, it sucks". I just dont like that, thats all.

    Perhaps they think a super douper NATO navy that can beat the Russians with one hand tied behind their back might be armed with a better weapon than such an ancient system that today relies on swarm attacks for any defended target.

    The normal compliment of 8 or so Harpoons does not make the ships capability that impressive.

    Well today SM-6 can be used to strike surface combatants too if required so its not really only anti-ship missile they have, only dedicated one, yes.

    Which suggests the obvious question... why bother with harpoon when they can use vastly more capable SAMs for the role...

    I am not fan of Su-33 and you know that.

    Of course, but you don't need to be.

    The Su-33 was an Su-27 with folding bits and a tail hook... which made it very potent when it first sailed... there was not very much that was better in the air to air role at that time.

    The F-14D had long range missiles but with little capability against fighter targets... it was for bombers.

    The Flanker is faster and much longer ranged than any model Harrier...

    It has not been continuously upgraded and currently is a fighter only, but then that is what they want from it.

    Complaining it cannot engage ground targets like a Rafale or F-18 is like complaining an F-15C has no air to ground capability.


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    hoom

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:41 am

    They haven't even launched the first 20385 yet but have already done essentially a complete redesign & started construction of the 20386.

    There has been rumor of a 22355/22350M being expected as the main production version so why should we presume that there hasn't been significant redesign done for 22350?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:50 am

    hoom wrote:They haven't even launched the first 20385 yet but have already done essentially a complete redesign & started construction of the 20386.

    There has been rumor of a 22355/22350M being expected as the main production version so why should we presume that there hasn't been significant redesign done for 22350?

    Because 20385 is dead end. They are  too far into construction to scrap them. Less wasteful to just finish them.

    Also, 2010 rule.

    There will be significant redesign of 22350. In a decade. Just like it took a decade (or more) with 20380.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:16 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:They haven't even launched the first 20385 yet but have already done essentially a complete redesign & started construction of the 20386.

    There has been rumor of a 22355/22350M being expected as the main production version so why should we presume that there hasn't been significant redesign done for 22350?

    Because 20385 is dead end. They are  too far into construction to scrap them. Less wasteful to just finish them.

    Also, 2010 rule.

    There will be significant redesign of 22350. In a decade. Just like it took a decade (or more) with 20380.

    Yeah that class was canned once Germany refused to deliver the engines I believe?.

    The 20386 is the replacement to that.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:16 pm

    What is '2010 rule'?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:52 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:..............

    Yeah that class was canned once Germany refused to deliver the engines I believe?.

    The 20386 is the replacement to that.

    20385 was supposed to be upgrade of 20380 with added UKSK launcher and higher endurance. Problem is that first 20380 ship (Steregushi) does not have Redut vertical AA launcher. They were added in later ships thus reducing available internal space.

    With 20385 they moved Redut launchers in the back to make room for UKSK launcher in the front. And that made whole thing even more cramped. Once engine issues occurred whole thing was shelved in favor of new model.

    And it shows. Even from what little we know it is evident that 20386 has far more efficient arrangement of internal components and is probably easier and cheaper to build as a result.

    Engines for 20385 are delivered (new local models) and those two ships are being completed but next standard corvette is definitely 20386 (Derzki).



    hoom wrote:What is '2010 rule'?

    That is my own approach to evaluating efficiency of Russian naval construction. I will just quote myself here:

    I personally have one very simple rule about Russian Naval construction: ignore vessels whose construction started before 2010. I just don't take their delivery speed into any assessment.

    Reason: before 2008 Georgia incident nobody in Russia gave 2 sh*ts about military and navy in particular. So let's say it took them couple of years to get off their asses and you get year 2010.

    I will gladly criticize any ship whose construction started after that point but as for stuff before that, when they come, they come.

    Call it force majeure and save yourself (and others) some hassle.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:26 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    20385 was supposed to be upgrade of 20380 with added UKSK launcher and higher endurance. Problem is that first 20380 ship (Steregushi) does not have Redut vertical AA launcher. They were added in later ships thus reducing available internal space.

    With 20385 they moved Redut launchers in the back to make room for UKSK launcher in the front. And that made whole thing even more cramped. Once engine issues occurred whole thing was shelved in favor of new model.

    And it shows. Even from what little we know it is evident that 20386 has far more efficient arrangement of internal components and is probably easier and cheaper to build as a result.

    Engines for 20385 are delivered (new local models) and those two ships are being completed but next standard corvette is definitely 20386 (Derzki).

    Papa,

    Allegedly the 20385 is a bit longer and has a higher displacement compared to the 20380.
    The 20385 were designed because the Northern Fleet wanted:
    - UKSK launchers instead of Uran
    - Bigger and better equipped galleys (the ships of the Northern fleet go on longer cruises compared to the Baltic ones)

    The reason why no further orders came for the 20385 (after the first 2) is because the cost jumped up and came close to the Gorshkov Frigates.

    You are right the Derzki is the way for the future. It is fundamentally different in design, engines etc.



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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:36 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:.................
    Papa,

    Allegedly the 20385 is a bit longer and has a higher displacement compared to the 20380.
    The 20385 were designed because the Northern Fleet wanted:
    - UKSK launchers instead of Uran
    - Bigger and better equipped galleys (the ships of the Northern fleet go on longer cruises compared to the Baltic ones)

    The reason why no further orders came for the 20385 (after the first 2) is because the cost jumped up and came close to the Gorshkov Frigates.

    You are right the Derzki is the way for the future. It is fundamentally different in design, engines etc.

    Correct.

    I remember someone posting list of prices a while ago and 20385 were definitely crazy expensive for corvettes.

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