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    Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

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    Big_Gazza
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:03 am

    Militarov wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Wasn't the sovershenny batch supposed to already have UKSK VLS instead of the obsolescent uran?

    What exactly is obsolete about Uran?  Care to back up your claim with some well reasoned arguments?

    No?....  didn't think so....

    You are all calling Harpoon obsolete because its subsonic without terminal boosters... now somehow Uran is top-notch on other hand Smile? Reality check son. lol1

    I don't beleive I ever called Harpoon obselete.  its still an effective missile against small-medium combatants even if its single-shot kill probability is probably low against a competent CIWS.  Uran is Harpoon class, and its a lot smaller than Kalibre/Onix, and cheaper both in terms ordnance cost and shipboard installation/space requirements.  For a 2000T corvette destined to serve in the Baltic, its not a bad choice.  I'd like to see future Steregushchys upgraded with UKSK, especially for Northern and Pacific fleets, but that doesn't mean Uran is obselete.  

    P.S what is this "son" bullshit?  I don't I've ever disrespected you in any posting, so pls explain...
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    Isos
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Isos on Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:22 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Wasn't the sovershenny batch supposed to already have UKSK VLS instead of the obsolescent uran?

    What exactly is obsolete about Uran?  Care to back up your claim with some well reasoned arguments?

    No?....  didn't think so....

    You are all calling Harpoon obsolete because its subsonic without terminal boosters... now somehow Uran is top-notch on other hand Smile? Reality check son. lol1

    I don't beleive I ever called Harpoon obselete.  its still an effective missile against small-medium combatants even if its single-shot kill probability is probably low against a competent CIWS.  Uran is Harpoon class, and its a lot smaller than Kalibre/Onix, and cheaper both in terms ordnance cost and shipboard installation/space requirements.  For a 2000T corvette destined to serve in the Baltic, its not a bad choice.  I'd like to see future Steregushchys upgraded with UKSK, especially for Northern and Pacific fleets, but that doesn't mean Uran is obselete.  

    P.S what is this "son" bullshit?  I don't I've ever disrespected you in any posting, so pls explain...

    According to wikipedia, there is a variant with 16 Uran for the export. That would give them nice power-up.
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    Militarov
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Militarov on Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:00 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Wasn't the sovershenny batch supposed to already have UKSK VLS instead of the obsolescent uran?

    What exactly is obsolete about Uran?  Care to back up your claim with some well reasoned arguments?

    No?....  didn't think so....

    You are all calling Harpoon obsolete because its subsonic without terminal boosters... now somehow Uran is top-notch on other hand Smile? Reality check son. lol1

    I don't beleive I ever called Harpoon obselete.  its still an effective missile against small-medium combatants even if its single-shot kill probability is probably low against a competent CIWS.  Uran is Harpoon class, and its a lot smaller than Kalibre/Onix, and cheaper both in terms ordnance cost and shipboard installation/space requirements.  For a 2000T corvette destined to serve in the Baltic, its not a bad choice.  I'd like to see future Steregushchys upgraded with UKSK, especially for Northern and Pacific fleets, but that doesn't mean Uran is obselete.  

    P.S what is this "son" bullshit?  I don't I've ever disrespected you in any posting, so pls explain...

    "You are all calling Harpoon obsolete", there are literally 10 pages on this forum written about how Harpoon sucks. Then someone comes and says how Uran is great, and everyone starts nodding like on command, its called double fkn standards. You know.. same double standards everyone here talks about when they mention other military forums, Mess, ARmored Warfare and whatnot.

    Double, standards, i am just pointing that out.

    P.S. I was not insulting in any way, its a buzzword.
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    20385 was supposed to replace 20380

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:32 pm

    hoom wrote:Didn't stop them with 20385 -> 20386 dunno

    How come?

    20385 was supposed to replace 20380 but project was not up to specs. There are unlikely to be more after first two.

    20386 will be replacing both.

    Models of vessels will change over time but target number for every class (corvette, frigate, etc...) will stay the same.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:33 pm

    Harpoon isn't the same missile when it came out...it has been updated through it's life. It's a capable missile.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:23 pm

    Once again, where are the Gremyaschiys? Its been 5 years since the first one was laid down. Any info on their progress?
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:40 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Once again, where are the Gremyaschiys? Its been 5 years since the first one was laid down. Any info on their progress?


    Last I heard the first should be floated out this year and commissioned the next.

    The second 2019.

    Since the whole engine cancelling thing these ships have hit hard times.

    Granted their build time is nothing new for the Russian Navy fairly standard so far. Both should be going to the NF
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:53 am

    "You are all calling Harpoon obsolete",

    Considering it is the best anti ship missile the US Navy has and that navy is fucking perfect and has 10 super carrier groups and that does not include Marine carriers... it is pretty mediocre... but not actually obsolete.

    Ironic because it is western fanboys that think something is either perfect or obsolete.

    Look at the Su-33... good enough for the job... for which it gets criticism...

    Then someone comes and says how Uran is great, and everyone starts nodding like on command, its called double fkn standards.

    Then someone comes and says the Uran is good enough for that class of patrol ship... and then you go ballistic...


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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:41 am

    They haven't even launched the first 20385 yet but have already done essentially a complete redesign & started construction of the 20386.

    There has been rumor of a 22355/22350M being expected as the main production version so why should we presume that there hasn't been significant redesign done for 22350?
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:50 am

    hoom wrote:They haven't even launched the first 20385 yet but have already done essentially a complete redesign & started construction of the 20386.

    There has been rumor of a 22355/22350M being expected as the main production version so why should we presume that there hasn't been significant redesign done for 22350?

    Because 20385 is dead end. They are  too far into construction to scrap them. Less wasteful to just finish them.

    Also, 2010 rule.

    There will be significant redesign of 22350. In a decade. Just like it took a decade (or more) with 20380.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:16 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:They haven't even launched the first 20385 yet but have already done essentially a complete redesign & started construction of the 20386.

    There has been rumor of a 22355/22350M being expected as the main production version so why should we presume that there hasn't been significant redesign done for 22350?

    Because 20385 is dead end. They are  too far into construction to scrap them. Less wasteful to just finish them.

    Also, 2010 rule.

    There will be significant redesign of 22350. In a decade. Just like it took a decade (or more) with 20380.

    Yeah that class was canned once Germany refused to deliver the engines I believe?.

    The 20386 is the replacement to that.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:16 pm

    What is '2010 rule'?
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:52 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:..............

    Yeah that class was canned once Germany refused to deliver the engines I believe?.

    The 20386 is the replacement to that.

    20385 was supposed to be upgrade of 20380 with added UKSK launcher and higher endurance. Problem is that first 20380 ship (Steregushi) does not have Redut vertical AA launcher. They were added in later ships thus reducing available internal space.

    With 20385 they moved Redut launchers in the back to make room for UKSK launcher in the front. And that made whole thing even more cramped. Once engine issues occurred whole thing was shelved in favor of new model.

    And it shows. Even from what little we know it is evident that 20386 has far more efficient arrangement of internal components and is probably easier and cheaper to build as a result.

    Engines for 20385 are delivered (new local models) and those two ships are being completed but next standard corvette is definitely 20386 (Derzki).



    hoom wrote:What is '2010 rule'?

    That is my own approach to evaluating efficiency of Russian naval construction. I will just quote myself here:

    I personally have one very simple rule about Russian Naval construction: ignore vessels whose construction started before 2010. I just don't take their delivery speed into any assessment.

    Reason: before 2008 Georgia incident nobody in Russia gave 2 sh*ts about military and navy in particular. So let's say it took them couple of years to get off their asses and you get year 2010.

    I will gladly criticize any ship whose construction started after that point but as for stuff before that, when they come, they come.

    Call it force majeure and save yourself (and others) some hassle.
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    TheArmenian
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:26 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    20385 was supposed to be upgrade of 20380 with added UKSK launcher and higher endurance. Problem is that first 20380 ship (Steregushi) does not have Redut vertical AA launcher. They were added in later ships thus reducing available internal space.

    With 20385 they moved Redut launchers in the back to make room for UKSK launcher in the front. And that made whole thing even more cramped. Once engine issues occurred whole thing was shelved in favor of new model.

    And it shows. Even from what little we know it is evident that 20386 has far more efficient arrangement of internal components and is probably easier and cheaper to build as a result.

    Engines for 20385 are delivered (new local models) and those two ships are being completed but next standard corvette is definitely 20386 (Derzki).

    Papa,

    Allegedly the 20385 is a bit longer and has a higher displacement compared to the 20380.
    The 20385 were designed because the Northern Fleet wanted:
    - UKSK launchers instead of Uran
    - Bigger and better equipped galleys (the ships of the Northern fleet go on longer cruises compared to the Baltic ones)

    The reason why no further orders came for the 20385 (after the first 2) is because the cost jumped up and came close to the Gorshkov Frigates.

    You are right the Derzki is the way for the future. It is fundamentally different in design, engines etc.



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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:36 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:.................
    Papa,

    Allegedly the 20385 is a bit longer and has a higher displacement compared to the 20380.
    The 20385 were designed because the Northern Fleet wanted:
    - UKSK launchers instead of Uran
    - Bigger and better equipped galleys (the ships of the Northern fleet go on longer cruises compared to the Baltic ones)

    The reason why no further orders came for the 20385 (after the first 2) is because the cost jumped up and came close to the Gorshkov Frigates.

    You are right the Derzki is the way for the future. It is fundamentally different in design, engines etc.

    Correct.

    I remember someone posting list of prices a while ago and 20385 were definitely crazy expensive for corvettes.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:09 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:.................
    Papa,

    Allegedly the 20385 is a bit longer and has a higher displacement compared to the 20380.
    The 20385 were designed because the Northern Fleet wanted:
    - UKSK launchers instead of Uran
    - Bigger and better equipped galleys (the ships of the Northern fleet go on longer cruises compared to the Baltic ones)

    The reason why no further orders came for the 20385 (after the first 2) is because the cost jumped up and came close to the Gorshkov Frigates.

    You are right the Derzki is the way for the future. It is fundamentally different in design, engines etc.

    Correct.

    I remember someone posting list of prices a while ago and 20385 were definitely crazy expensive for corvettes.

    20386's are 3.6 tons that reasoning makes no sense. They are more expensive then the 20385.

    85's are smaller at 2.2 ish.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  franco on Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:05 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:.................
    Papa,

    Allegedly the 20385 is a bit longer and has a higher displacement compared to the 20380.
    The 20385 were designed because the Northern Fleet wanted:
    - UKSK launchers instead of Uran
    - Bigger and better equipped galleys (the ships of the Northern fleet go on longer cruises compared to the Baltic ones)

    The reason why no further orders came for the 20385 (after the first 2) is because the cost jumped up and came close to the Gorshkov Frigates.

    You are right the Derzki is the way for the future. It is fundamentally different in design, engines etc.

    Correct.

    I remember someone posting list of prices a while ago and 20385 were definitely crazy expensive for corvettes.

    20386's are 3.6 tons that reasoning makes no sense. They are more expensive then the 20385.

    85's are smaller at 2.2 ish.

    IMO the 20386 is a compromise between the 20385 and the 22350.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:25 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:.................
    Papa,

    Allegedly the 20385 is a bit longer and has a higher displacement compared to the 20380.
    The 20385 were designed because the Northern Fleet wanted:
    - UKSK launchers instead of Uran
    - Bigger and better equipped galleys (the ships of the Northern fleet go on longer cruises compared to the Baltic ones)

    The reason why no further orders came for the 20385 (after the first 2) is because the cost jumped up and came close to the Gorshkov Frigates.

    You are right the Derzki is the way for the future. It is fundamentally different in design, engines etc.

    Correct.

    I remember someone posting list of prices a while ago and 20385 were definitely crazy expensive for corvettes.

    20386's are 3.6 tons that reasoning makes no sense. They are more expensive then the 20385.

    85's are smaller at 2.2 ish.

    The official specification sheet showing the details of the 20386 showed:
    - displacement of 3420 T
    - length of 109 m

    A lot of people (including me) are questioning these numbers. How can you have an extra 1000 T more than the 20380 when the length is the same?
    They say there must be a typo error: either the displacement is wrong or the length is wrong.

    Even the exact displacements of the 20380 are confusing.
    Originally they were said to be 2000T. The number was changed to 2200 T later on (and 2400 T for the 20385).

    Perhaps the 20386 is indeed much larger than the 20380 as you have mentioned. In that case, it is definitely not based on the older model and is definitely more expensive.
    Or maybe the 20386 is based on the 20380 and is not larger or more costly.

    The jury is still out.

    I would love to see a picture (taking from above) of a 20380, 20385 and 20386 next to each other where I can compare the sizes and come to my own conclusions.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:59 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:.................
    Papa,

    Allegedly the 20385 is a bit longer and has a higher displacement compared to the 20380.
    The 20385 were designed because the Northern Fleet wanted:
    - UKSK launchers instead of Uran
    - Bigger and better equipped galleys (the ships of the Northern fleet go on longer cruises compared to the Baltic ones)

    The reason why no further orders came for the 20385 (after the first 2) is because the cost jumped up and came close to the Gorshkov Frigates.

    You are right the Derzki is the way for the future. It is fundamentally different in design, engines etc.

    Correct.

    I remember someone posting list of prices a while ago and 20385 were definitely crazy expensive for corvettes.

    20386's are 3.6 tons that reasoning makes no sense. They are more expensive then the 20385.

    85's are smaller at 2.2 ish.

    The official specification sheet showing the details of the 20386 showed:
    - displacement of 3420 T
    - length of 109 m

    A lot of people (including me) are questioning these numbers. How can you have an extra  1000 T more than the 20380 when the length is the same?
    They say there must be a typo error: either the displacement is wrong or the length is wrong.

    Even the exact displacements of the 20380 are confusing.
    Originally they were said to be 2000T. The number was changed to 2200 T later on (and 2400 T for the 20385).

    Perhaps the 20386 is indeed much larger than the 20380 as you have mentioned. In that case, it is definitely not based on the older model and is definitely more expensive.
    Or maybe the 20386 is based on the 20380 and is not larger or more costly.

    The jury is still out.

    I would love to see a picture (taking from above) of a 20380, 20385  and 20386 next to each other where I can compare the sizes and come to my own conclusions.

    I am merely going by the numbers given and the numbers say it's over 3K tons and Really considering all the stuff they say this ship can do and what it's loaded with there is no way it's cheaper then the 85's.

    36's have features the 35's don't more weapons, more internal space.

    It's simply not possible for them to be cheaper then the 85's.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Isos on Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:50 pm

    The Gremyashy class was estimated between 350 and 450 Million $ according to an article of website in french for russian navy (http://www.rusnavyintelligence.com/article-l-etat-major-de-la-marine-russe-mecontent-des-nouvelles-corvettes-furtives-115804152.html).

    The steregouchshy was 120-150 million for export.

    A simpler and better solution would be to produce more Grigorovitch class at this price. In raw power it's better, more space, same price, more range, can go in open sea and not just costal area, already constructed for black sea, uses more anti air missiles, has UKSK.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:59 pm

    Isos wrote:The Gremyashy class was estimated between 350 and 450 Million $ according to an article of website in french for russian navy (http://www.rusnavyintelligence.com/article-l-etat-major-de-la-marine-russe-mecontent-des-nouvelles-corvettes-furtives-115804152.html).

    The steregouchshy was 120-150 million for export.

    A simpler and better solution would be to produce more Grigorovitch class at this price. In raw power it's better, more space, same price, more range, can go in open sea and not just costal area, already constructed for black sea, uses more anti air missiles, has UKSK.

    This is what I was saying back when.

    Also bigger ship does not necessarily mean bigger pricetag, especially of they went with modular construction. And we still don't know exact size. Old ones had misleading data as well like Armenian pointed out.

    Imported engines and other gear were not cheap. 20386 uses all local stuff. Another possible savings method.

    Price might very well be higher indeed but maybe not by much.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:01 am

    Isos wrote:The Gremyashy class was estimated between 350 and 450 Million $ according to an article of website in french for russian navy (http://www.rusnavyintelligence.com/article-l-etat-major-de-la-marine-russe-mecontent-des-nouvelles-corvettes-furtives-115804152.html).

    The steregouchshy was 120-150 million for export.

    A simpler and better solution would be to produce more Grigorovitch class at this price. In raw power it's better, more space, same price, more range, can go in open sea and not just costal area, already constructed for black sea, uses more anti air missiles, has UKSK.

    Export versions are also worse than their domestic counterparts.

    At the same time it's a 3k ton ship it can go into the blue water just fine.

    These aren't merely brown water vessels.

    I suspect Russia is just calling them corvettes so they can get more bigger ships quicker.

    The 36 is a light frigate if it's over 3k tons.

    It could be smaller? sure but until I see anything official it remains ar 3k tons.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:44 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:The Gremyashy class was estimated between 350 and 450 Million $ according to an article of website in french for russian navy (http://www.rusnavyintelligence.com/article-l-etat-major-de-la-marine-russe-mecontent-des-nouvelles-corvettes-furtives-115804152.html).

    The steregouchshy was 120-150 million for export.

    A simpler and better solution would be to produce more Grigorovitch class at this price. In raw power it's better, more space, same price, more range, can go in open sea and not just costal area, already constructed for black sea, uses more anti air missiles, has UKSK.

    Export versions are also worse than their domestic counterparts.

    At the same time it's a 3k ton ship it can go into the blue water just fine.

    These aren't merely brown water vessels.

    I suspect Russia is just calling them corvettes so they can get more bigger ships quicker.

    The 36 is a light frigate if it's over 3k tons.

    It could be smaller? sure but until I see anything official it remains ar 3k tons.

    Check this video at 1:23

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:10 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:The Gremyashy class was estimated between 350 and 450 Million $ according to an article of website in french for russian navy (http://www.rusnavyintelligence.com/article-l-etat-major-de-la-marine-russe-mecontent-des-nouvelles-corvettes-furtives-115804152.html).

    The steregouchshy was 120-150 million for export.

    A simpler and better solution would be to produce more Grigorovitch class at this price. In raw power it's better, more space, same price, more range, can go in open sea and not just costal area, already constructed for black sea, uses more anti air missiles, has UKSK.

    Export versions are also worse than their domestic counterparts.

    At the same time it's a 3k ton ship it can go into the blue water just fine.

    These aren't merely brown water vessels.

    I suspect Russia is just calling them corvettes so they can get more bigger ships quicker.

    The 36 is a light frigate if it's over 3k tons.

    It could be smaller? sure but until I see anything official it remains ar 3k tons.

    Check this video at 1:23


    I do not count some information from a news outlet to be fact.

    The ship builders and Russian MoD themselves have stated it's over 3k tons. This overrules any third party.

    Another problem it says displacement not FULL Displacement.

    (I can read russian).

    even the 22350's aren't over 4k tons if you don't count their Full displacement.



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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Isos on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:25 pm

    This is what I was saying back when.

    Also bigger ship does not necessarily mean bigger pricetag, especially of they went with modular construction. And we still don't know exact size. Old ones had misleading data as well like Armenian pointed out.

    Imported engines and other gear were not cheap. 20386 uses all local stuff. Another possible savings method.

    Price might very well be higher indeed but maybe not by much.

    The price of 20386 will be higher than 20380 and 20385 as they use new electronics, new design and more equipement (new AESA radar and if I'm not wrong it wiil be equiped with Urans and Kalibr so they will need to put both systems).

    20385 is not a big upgrade and look how the price increased.

    That's the problem with russian they can't build one ship, they always want to upgrade and at the end they have lot of versions with each have having 1 or 2 ss in service. 20380 was very good (when equiped with redut), build for close sea. It could have been used to defend shores in the north and pacific with it's Paket-NK and sonars (which are according to me the best way to use them). For anti ship role they should go for bigger ship (which they already designed) like Gorshkovs and Grigorovitch.

    They are planning to build lot of small and cheaper corvettes with UKSK so the modularity of the 20386 is not a priority.


    Export versions are also worse than their domestic counterparts.

    At the same time it's a 3k ton ship it can go into the blue water just fine.

    These aren't merely brown water vessels.

    I suspect Russia is just calling them corvettes so they can get more bigger ships quicker.

    The 36 is a light frigate if it's over 3k tons.

    It could be smaller? sure but until I see anything official it remains ar 3k tons

    For the same price if you can have a 4K tons "medium" frigate instead of a 3k tons "big corvette-light frigate", you chose it the medium frigate.

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

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