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    Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

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    PapaDragon
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:57 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Papa, read this:
    https://m.lenta.ru/articles/2016/08/18/front_rabot/

    It seems to state Palmas antey has issues with everything, but I am assuming its bullshit. 9m96 being bad performer, 40n6 not in service, etc. But it leads me to believe being garbage journalism cause 9m96 was in service for years and 40n6 was tested years ago as well.

    It talks about issue with redut and shtil

    Well it's either one of two things:

    1) Standard missiles work but new ones still have issues.

    2) Entire Redut platform is a failure because nothing works.

    In first case we are talking about usual journalistic bullsh*t.

    In second case entire Russian navy post USSR is one big useless white elephant that can be defeated and exterminated by any country that has access to jet powered combat aircraft.
    And that this entire class of corvettes should have never been built in the first place (I do agree with this bolded part to significant degree) .
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:32 am

    Well Shtil-1 works.

    If it can be made to work properly Redut 20380 makes for a very powerful & useful Corvette IMO.
    20385 is more like a light frigate but basically the same size, hopefully the AESA radar on that will be able to work properly with the 9m96es (if the issue isn't the missiles...)
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:39 am

    After doing a bit of reading and even reading nationalreview (blah...) it turns out that the issue isn't all the missiles, but just 1 missile type - 9M96 missile. Essentially it is having trouble with long range missiles and all other ones (less than 150km range) are working as intended so they blame the Fakel plant which makes the missile, hence why they never mentioned the radar but the missile itself. Makes sense. So the 9M100 and such are working as intended.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:49 am

    Well if a system thats supposed to use 3 missiles 9m100 15km, 9m96 40km & 9m96M 120km has issues with the 2nd two then that system is fundamentally borked.
    But I don't understand why this has suddenly come out when the missiles are supposed to already be in service on at least a couple of systems.
    Possibly 20380 wasn't ever really intended to be able to properly use 9m96 but they gave it a whirl anyway hoping for something like 30km effective?
    With just 9m100 (32* 15km missiles) it would still have a pretty strong AA ability for the size of the ship, though not really much better than the first of class with Kashtan Neutral

    I'm still not convinced its really the missiles.
    While they are a common component it seems like a lost-in-translation/over-simplified/passing responsibility type of explanation.
    My alternative personal opinion: Furke just lacks power for the range needed by those missiles (& 20385 will be fine assuming radar/software works properly), Poliment might have immature software/hardware issues, S-350 is vaporware because limited engineering ability/funding has been focused on other stuff (S-400, Shtil-1, BukM3, TorM2, S-2500 etc).

    I hope its something like they just need to update some software/tweak frequencies & everything will be fine.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  medo on Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:00 am

    Steregushy corvette was meant to use short range 9M96 radar. Problem is, that Steregushi doesn't have any target engagement radar, but only standard search radar Furke. Problem with Furke is not in the range or power as 9M96 missiles are ARH, but in the size of target cell, which the radar could provide to missile inertial guidance. If the cell is to big, than missile have to search in bigger space for target and could happened, that it could not find it with its own radar in so short period of time, because the radar in the missile is not that big.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:29 pm

    Except 9m100 is an IR missile that probably doesn't require guidance & I've not seen any suggestion that the Puma gun firecontrol radar is capable of working with AA missiles so the credibility is low in my opinion

    9M100 is indeed an IR guided missile, but it has a lock on after launch capability which means it can be fired blind and directed towards the target and get a lock on the target in flight after launch... this requires it to have an idea of where the target is via datalink so it knows after launch where to look for its target and what target it is going for... the datalink might be two way allowing the operator to select the target based on what the missile can see as it is flying.

    This all means the missile can be carried in an internal weapons bay on an aircraft or vertical launch tube on a ship or land vehicle and can be launched/ejected rapidly and be flown in the direction of the incoming target before having to detect and lock on to that target...for mass attacks or very fast reactions this is ideal... and with some sophistication it can be loaded with a 3D IR image target library and identify targets itself...

    So the 9M100 and such are working as intended.

    That would be excellent news if it can be confirmed as the 9M100 will be an important missile for the Russian Navy, Army, and Air Force.... and offering huge potential for a range of uses... an IIR seeker fitted to existing missiles like R-27E and R-77 and of course R-37M would make very potent air to air weapons... Imagine an Su-35 flying along scanning with its long wave wing mounted L band radars and detecting a radar return where the powerful X band radar in its nose shows nothing... the target is 200km distant and with no solid lock there is no point in launching a radar guided missile so firing an R-37M with an IIR seeker that can actively look for targets from launch all the way to 300km away as it travels without emitting radar signals of its own... it might detect a range of threats on the way but just send back an IIR image to the launch aircraft... when it gets to the location of the return signal it can look for anything resembling an F-22 or F-35 and if it finds one attack it on its own... those stealth targets wont be actively scanning the sky looking for incoming small threats so they likely wont even know what hit them...


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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:41 pm

    sepheronx wrote:After doing a bit of reading and even reading nationalreview (blah...) it turns out that the issue isn't all the missiles, but just 1 missile type - 9M96 missile.  Essentially it is having trouble with long range missiles and all other ones (less than 150km range) are working as intended so they blame the Fakel plant which makes the missile, hence why they never mentioned the radar but the missile itself.  Makes sense.  So the 9M100 and such are working as intended.

    This is what I have been saying all along. Only one latest type of missile has problems.

    hoom wrote:.........
    Possibly 20380 wasn't ever really intended to be able to properly use 9m96 but they gave it a whirl anyway hoping for something like 30km effective?
    ...........

    20380 was not supposed to use this type nor it ever will. Gorshkov frigate will, a completely different class of vessels.

    20380 never had any problems whatsoever with AA systems. Why are people even talking about this? It is Gorshkov frigate that has problems with 9M96 missile, not 20380 corvette which does not use it to begin with.

    Can we finally stop discussing 9M96 missile and 20380 corvette already? They have no connection nor relation with one another.

    I really dislike 20380 corvettes but their AA systems work fine, even I admit that.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:25 pm

    it has a lock on after launch capability which means it can be fired blind and directed towards the target and get a lock on the target in flight after launch
    True.

    Can we finally stop discussing 9M96 missile and 20380 corvette already? They have no connection nor relation with one another.
    20380 (other than Steregushchy with the Kashtan) has Redut & there are only 3 missiles associated with that launcher: 9m100, 9m96 & 9m96M.
    There isn't any other missile for it to use & yes 20380 did have reported development problems/test fails.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:56 am

    This seems to be from 2013 but has relevant details
    http://bastion-opk.ru/poliment-redut/ (google translate)
    Air defense missile system 3K96 "POLIMENT-redoubt" ( "redoubt") The development of modern air defense systems for the ships of the Russian Navy "Poliment-Redoute" is the NGO "Almaz-Antey".
    SEC "Altair", being a parent in GSKB Concern PVO "Almaz Antey "on the complexes and sea-based systems, in 2012, continued the work begun in the structure of" MNIIRE "Altair".
    First of all, the ROC and the participation in the supply of production samples on the main themes NTC - ed. 3K96 and SAM "Calm 1".
    In the onshore SAM 50R6 "Vityaz" uses tezhe missiles that SAM "Redoubt" ( "Poliment-Redoute"), this anti-aircraft missiles 9M96 and 9M100.
    In 2011, products 9M96 and 9M100 shot S-400 air defense system "Redoubt".
    In both cases, the target acquisition homing (GOS) was broke, and the target were not affected.
    As noted in 2011, the development of modern air defense systems for the ships of the Russian Navy "Poliment-Redoubt" was behind schedule.
    The lag was due to the shortage of engineers in the design bureau of the group. Instead of a complex maritime best design minds occupied land.
    This situation has led to a delay in the construction of new Russian frigate project 22350.
    The main difficulties arose in the establishment of the radar "Poliment" station with a phased antenna array (PAA) and the Marine version 9M96 missiles, which should become the main weapon SAM "Redoubt".
    Together, these two systems constitute complex defense "Poliment-Redoute."
    All 2012 Concern PVO "Almaz-Antey" arguments homing anti-aircraft missiles 9M96 "to mind" and held their own ground tests.
    In October 2012 the Department of Defense suffered indefinitely test ship antiaircraft missile system (SAM) "Redoubt" which must arm a new generation of ships.
    In 2012, shot three times - twice with a corvette of the Baltic Fleet "savvy" 20380 to the sea, and once with a ground installation.
    All launches were not successful, in August 2012 the launch took place in normal mode, but the homing head is unable to acquire a target, and the missile self-destructed.
    According to the test results, the 1st Central Research Institute of the Ministry of Defence presented the conclusion complex underfulfilled needs to eliminate a plurality of drawbacks.
    Naval experts particularly unhappy rocket under the symbol 9M96M and radar "Furke-2." In SAM "Redoubt" do not have a radar target detection.
    This problem is solved "Furke" general ship radar detection at the time of the test is not sufficiently effective.
    Theme 3K96 in 2012, made ​​significant amount of work that allows you to speak with confidence about the end of the test in 2013, ed. 3K96-3 on ships 20380 and putting samples of the products of the Navy, as well as carrying out preliminary bench tests, the supply of sample Vol. 3K96-2 on the lead ship of the project 22350, its assembly and testing.
    At the head of the project 22350 frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" test "Reduta" will begin no earlier than 2014, upon the ship's readiness.
    In this set of 9M96 missiles and 9M100 9M96D ready for testing. On the frigates of Project 22350 will be installed 4 module SAM "Poliment-Redoute" to 8 cells in each (a total of 32 cells for SAM).
    During the briefing, which took place in the framework of the MAKS-2013, the general director of Concern PVO "Almaz-Antey" said that testing of the new SAM system was interrupted in 2012 due to a fire in the TFR "savvy" (20380).
    This year the ship after repairs arrived for the resumption of SAM tests. He also said that at the head of the project 22350 frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" test "Reduta" will begin no earlier than 2014, upon the ship's readiness.
    In this set of 9M96 missiles and 9M100 9M96D ready for testing.
    Источник: http://bastion-opk.ru/poliment-redut/ ОВТ «ОРУЖИЕ ОТЕЧЕСТВА» A.V.Karpenko
    According to that 9m96 & 9m100 tests with S-400 in 2011 failed as well as the later tests with 20380 & 22350.
    That certainly seems to point to missile side issues.

    Apparently the CEO of Almaz-Antey has been fired/forced to resign in the last few days.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  George1 on Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:25 pm

    Corvette "Sovershennyy" on the demagnetization





    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2146361.html


    This ship was laid down 10 years ago... unshaven


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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:08 am

    George1 wrote:Corvette "Sovershennyy" on the demagnetization





    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2146361.html


    This ship was laid down 10 years ago... unshaven

    Amur shipyard??
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  George1 on Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:29 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:

    Amur shipyard??

    Yes. First ship of that class for Pacific fleet


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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:23 am

    Looks pretty far short of the completion state that other ships have been at for demagnetisation Neutral
    Pretty unusual to do it tied up to a dock with all sorts of random chunks of steel still onboard/right next to it...
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:52 am

    One of the 20380s Soobrazitelnyy tested 9M96 vs surface target


    Most AA missiles seem to have secondary anti-surface ability but pretty rare to see it used.
    Fair bit of it going round lately, particularly US made a big hoo-hah about testing SM-6es, even our local mini-navy shot a couple of old Sea Sparrows at a target ship at RIMPAC.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:02 am

    Corvette " Sovershenny" on demagnetization



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2227965.html


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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:43 pm

    TV Zvezda: The barrier: the Corvette "Resistant" and "Savvy" staged a duel in the Baltic sea

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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Isos on Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:33 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:TV Zvezda: The barrier: the Corvette "Resistant" and "Savvy" staged a duel in the Baltic sea


    Did they shot down the Kh-35 or a drone ??
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  hoom on Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:51 pm

    It's supposedly the Kh-35 fired from one shot down with 9M96 from the other.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Rmf on Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:48 pm

    still using uran?? its a shame russia doesnt have stealthy subsonic antiship missile in this day....
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:58 pm

    It does... the anti ship versions of Klub.

    Stealth would be pointless for Uran and the upgraded Uran as they are active radar homing...

    A better alternative for stealth is speed because most modern ships would have a good chance of detecting an incoming missile stealthy or not due to IR sensors and EO systems.

    The solution of speed means no time to react effectively.


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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Rmf on Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:37 am

    again this, you always same, going offtopic picking some sideline point- and driving with that, instead of adressing real question.- e.g. stealth subsonic antiship missile.

    could kh-ushke from pak-fa programe be used....?
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:16 am

    Me going off topic.. you are the one complaining about lack of stealth anti ship missiles for Russian corvettes.

    Uran is the bargain basement missile... for upgrades and for ships that don't need anything better.

    There is nothing wrong with the missile... it actually has better performance than the exocet or harpoon which would be the closest western equivalents.

    When operating in a small enclosed area with the enemy in a known position and expecting to be fired upon then a single uran missile is not going to be a devastating weapon... nor is harpoon or exocet or anything else really.

    Ships don't operate with their radars blasing away all the time scanning for threats... that gives away their position and gives up the element of surprise... when they don't have their radars on the Uran will get much closer before it is detected and when more than one is fired its chance of success will be much greater.

    could kh-ushke from pak-fa programe be used....?

    If you mean the latest version of the AS-11 it could only be used if the target is using its radar and the obvious problem there is that it would likely take out the targets radar but not sink the ship...

    For most targets a Uran is fine... for better protected targets several Uran would probably still do the job. For most modern targets bigger than a corvette you would need Yakhont or the supersonic Klub or Zircon/Brahmos II.

    Stealthy subsonic will be detected no matter how radar invisible it is... even old missiles are stealthy in that they don't emit radar signals so a target not scanning... which will be all the ones that don't want to be detected at long range and saturation attacked... wont see it till it is visual on EO or Thermal optics... for subsonic targets that gives little time... for supersonic targets next to no time at all.


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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  chicken on Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:41 am

    GarryB wrote:It does... the anti ship versions of Klub.

    Did Russia buy that version? I was under the impression that they did not.
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:57 am

    Rmf wrote:still using uran?? its a shame russia doesnt have stealthy subsonic antiship missile in this day....

    I can write like an 8 year old too...

    still using harpoon and exocet?? its a shame usa and france don't have stealthy subsonic antiship missile in this day....
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    Re: Project 2038.0: Steregushchy Corvette

    Post  Rmf on Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:33 pm

    thats true but some nato countries do have very stealth subsonic cruise antiship missiles, which usa or any other nato country could get very fast, and besides russia should lead not play catchup most of time.
    i was thinking going with that kh-ushke missile with passive homing and IIR combined warhead.... that would enable totaly passive closure to target using its emisions and with IIR target the ship ,with stealth it would be very hard to intercept missile, plus it has simmilar weight and range characteristics to Uran.

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