Russian Su-24 shootdown by Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter

OminousSpudd wrote:While we're on the subject of lost pilots, why did Russian media conduct the first interview with the downed Su-24's navigator from behind?

I've been asked twice already today.

...security issue - once pilot is still operational they keep his face hidden for public...

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Mustafa wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:From the communists

Communist deputy of the State Duma Vadim Solovyov came up with a proposal to expel Turkish construction companies from Russia, as well as to ban the imports of Turkish foodstuffs and textiles, Izvestia daily said.

"By its unexpected escapade, Turkey calls into question a possibility of political and, on top of that, economic trust in it," it quoted Solovyov.

"Much has been said about severing relations in the tour industry but this isn’t the only sphere where our countries have had close cooperation," he said. "Turkish companies are engaged in many landmark construction projects in Russia, like the Federation Tower in the Moskva City business center."

"Why should we allow the companies from a country, which doesn’t support our policies and cooperates with terrorist groupings, make money here?" he asked somewhat rhetorically.

Because economy has nothing to do with politics. I dont see the connection

That's retaliation for an act of war.

crossing airspace illegal was also act of war. As i said, a bad mistake was done and our nations need to speak with each other to make sure that won´t happen again.

I already said i´m sorry for what happened. I think it would have been better to fire warning shots.

But i also have one question, how can we get russia to finally accept to not cross our airspace? They did this again and again and there were already high rank talks about this.

Look...face reality. The only one who profits from our nations argueing are the terrorists. Thats the basic fact. Russia alone can win nothing in syria and putin knows that. Turkey and Russia must work together.

We have interests, russia has interests. The goal must be to bring both together.

fuck the interests of terrorists.
fuck their supporters.

or rather, bomb them further back into the stone age.

the civilised world has no "common interests" with turkey.

Mustafa wrote:

crossing airspace illegal was also act of war.

so this year alone you 2500 times crossed Greek border 5 times Armenian, nobody counts how many times crossed Syrian border


Next time it seems S-400 or Su-30 will down every Turkish plane right crossing the border. Hope in Armenia as well.

Mustafa wrote: We have interests, russia has interests. The goal must be to bring both together.

You have interests with IGIL and attacking Kurds which prevailed.

BTW what is your rank in Turkish intel?

Mustafa wrote:The bad things done by a few should not be pushed on all. Look...i agree that killing pilot in parachute was a crime. Evryone in turkey thinks so and i feel ashamed for it. But turkmens are our brothers. Just as russians defend theirs in east ukraine you can understand our feelings regarding that.

I totally agree that we must push up our efforts against ISIS. We did not enough and we could do much more. I promise you the one who killed pilot did a crime and will be punished but don´t expect us to stand against our brothers.

I agree with most things you said but there is always a red line when it goes collective against your own people.

That's all understandable.

Only I don't believe Erdogan when he says that Russians are killing the Turkmen brothers and so on. If Russia is indeed causing a humanitarian crisis in the region, bombing civilians or forcing them to leave their homes - then I would be interested in seeing evidence of this; photos, videos, etc...

Because I believe Turkey's government is really only interested in protecting their pet Islamists there - and those rebel groups, while they may be ethnically Turkmen - are Islamist rebels and are fighting against Assad because they want to establish an Islamic state based on Sharia law.
There are Islamist Turkmen, Islamist Turks, Islamist Arabs, Islamist Kurds, Islamist Russians, etc... they are all the enemy, their ethnicity or native language doesn't matter. I heard for example that there are Russian-speaking Jihadists that also fight in that region.
The fact that they shot a pilot as he was descending to the ground and then seemingly wanted to decapitate him only fuels my suspicions.

If the 'Turkmen' captured the pilot, treated him properly as per Geneva Conventions then I might be more inclined to believe the Turkish side.

Firebird wrote:fuck the interests of terrorists.
fuck their supporters.

or rather, bomb them further back into the stone age.

the civilised world has no "common interests" with turkey.

Not All Turks are islamists, it seems that more then half is against Ergodan but he is 1 and rest is divided. No need to be Turkophibc.

But Erdogan and hie entourage must go down and all responsible for shooting and IGIL support severely punished with such Turkey business probably can start again.

OminousSpudd wrote:While we're on the subject of lost pilots, why did Russian media conduct the first interview with the downed Su-24's navigator from behind?

I've been asked twice already today.

Maybe he is camera shy? Anyway, I am pretty sure that was set-up for a reason. Don't really know the reason though...

Mustafa wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Mustafa wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:From the communists

Communist deputy of the State Duma Vadim Solovyov came up with a proposal to expel Turkish construction companies from Russia, as well as to ban the imports of Turkish foodstuffs and textiles, Izvestia daily said.

"By its unexpected escapade, Turkey calls into question a possibility of political and, on top of that, economic trust in it," it quoted Solovyov.

"Much has been said about severing relations in the tour industry but this isn’t the only sphere where our countries have had close cooperation," he said. "Turkish companies are engaged in many landmark construction projects in Russia, like the Federation Tower in the Moskva City business center."

"Why should we allow the companies from a country, which doesn’t support our policies and cooperates with terrorist groupings, make money here?" he asked somewhat rhetorically.

Because economy has nothing to do with politics. I dont see the connection

That's retaliation for an act of war.

crossing airspace illegal was also act of war. As i said, a bad mistake was done and our nations need to speak with each other to make sure that won´t happen again.

I already said i´m sorry for what happened. I think it would have been better to fire warning shots.

But i also have one question, how can we get russia to finally accept to not cross our airspace? They did this again and again and there were already high rank talks about this.

Look...face reality. The only one who profits from our nations argueing are the terrorists. Thats the basic fact. Russia alone can win nothing in syria and putin knows that. Turkey and Russia must work together.

We have interests, russia has interests. The goal must be to bring both together.

Fair enough, so if your planes start falling out of the sky every time to commit an 'act of war' by flying over greek airspace, or by flying into syria, you wont complain, right?

But lets face it, you need to stop flip flopping on this issue. On the one hand you say the shoot down was a big mistake that you are sorry for, and the next you state that the russian plane was committing an act of war, and thus the turkish actions were correct. So which is it?

PapaDragon wrote:

flamming_python wrote:Wonder how you guys would react if we had a bunch of people here from Poland, Baltic states, Finland, etc... calling for Russians to be mass-murdered and Russia to be broken up due to past transgressions and imperialism against their countries in the 19th century or WW2 or whatever.

Please don't make this forum into a cesspool for your filth.

Ehmm, hello? Have you been reading Internet at all since it was invented?

That is EXACTLY what they are calling for 24/7.

Well not like this, they may be Russophobes or skeptical about Russia (for understandable reasons), but they keep it civil.

headshot69 wrote:

OminousSpudd wrote:While we're on the subject of lost pilots, why did Russian media conduct the first interview with the downed Su-24's navigator from behind?

I've been asked twice already today.

...security issue - once pilot is still operational they keep his face hidden for public...

But we all know who he is. After all, don't we know his name and have his facial photos already (as do the Ukrops).

Acheron wrote:

headshot69 wrote:

OminousSpudd wrote:While we're on the subject of lost pilots, why did Russian media conduct the first interview with the downed Su-24's navigator from behind?

I've been asked twice already today.

...security issue - once pilot is still operational they keep his face hidden for public...

But we all know who he is. After all, don't we know his name and have his facial photos already (as do the Ukrops).

The bbc report i saw only said that the pilot 'kept his face off camera in order to remain anonymous', even they didnt make any conspiracy references like they would normally do, so i tend to think this occasion that its simply the pilot wishing to remain off camera or being ordered to.

It did look strange and a part of me did wonder if the two pilots actually were dead and that this was a bit of propaganda, but it would be a bit too elaborate and pointless really.

flamming_python wrote: Well not like this, they may be Russophobes or skeptical about Russia (for understandable reasons), but they keep it civil.

Not all, but true that level of skurwienia Polish politicians is comparable to Ukropistan. they support banderlogs although banderlogs are responsible of genocide of almost 400 Poles in Wolyn !!!
just because their sick phobias against Russia they also seem to allying with IGIL just because IGIL is anti Russian .

Young generation is brainwashed every day with Ministry of Truth news, no wonder some of them behave scandalous.

Khepesh wrote:Because the past is dead is not a reason to forget, and to remember and remind about the past leads to the saying "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it". This is a list of all the formal wars fought against the Turks, and all were victories except Crimean which was a fuck-up for everybody except the crushing victory of Admiral Nakhimov over the Turks at Sinop.
Русско-турецкая война 1735-1739
Русско-турецкая война 1768-1774
Русско-турецкая война 1787-1791
Русско-турецкая война 1806-1812
Русско-турецкая война 1828-1829
Крымская война 1853-1856
Русско-турецкая война 1877-1878

"Cowardice of the Turks and bravery of our lads"


https://vk.com/club72671313?w=wall-72671313_536165

Khepesh what relevance does this have to the modern Russian Federation (having gone through the Soviet experiment and expunged of all thoughts of helping Orthodox Christians in the Balkans, etc...), and the republic of Turkey? (having gone through Ataturk and completely disengaged from its Ottoman heritage; well at least until Erdogan & pals)

Mustafa wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Mustafa wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:From the communists

Communist deputy of the State Duma Vadim Solovyov came up with a proposal to expel Turkish construction companies from Russia, as well as to ban the imports of Turkish foodstuffs and textiles, Izvestia daily said.

"By its unexpected escapade, Turkey calls into question a possibility of political and, on top of that, economic trust in it," it quoted Solovyov.

"Much has been said about severing relations in the tour industry but this isn’t the only sphere where our countries have had close cooperation," he said. "Turkish companies are engaged in many landmark construction projects in Russia, like the Federation Tower in the Moskva City business center."

"Why should we allow the companies from a country, which doesn’t support our policies and cooperates with terrorist groupings, make money here?" he asked somewhat rhetorically.

Because economy has nothing to do with politics. I dont see the connection

That's retaliation for an act of war.

crossing airspace illegal was also act of war. As i said, a bad mistake was done and our nations need to speak with each other to make sure that won´t happen again.

I already said i´m sorry for what happened. I think it would have been better to fire warning shots.

But i also have one question, how can we get russia to finally accept to not cross our airspace? They did this again and again and there were already high rank talks about this.

Look...face reality. The only one who profits from our nations argueing are the terrorists. Thats the basic fact. Russia alone can win nothing in syria and putin knows that. Turkey and Russia must work together.

We have interests, russia has interests. The goal must be to bring both together.

Ok, when you were expressing your sentiments I accepted it, and even to a point settled down, but now you're speaking non-sense. Border crossing without an intention to do harm (the Su's were unarmed as they had done their job) isn't an act of war, it's a tresspassing that happens (See how your guys do this all the time) and no state of war was between Russia and Turkey. Therefore it's NOT an act of war. However Turkey applied to the Russian Sukhois a war protocol. It didn't do Visual Recon, the interceptor did NOT contact the Sukhoi, it didn't gave a fire warning (sommation) and it definitely did not tried to rescue the pilots as in ANY mistake.

Btw from the navigator that got shot down, we have strong suspicion of Turkey doing intelligence work for the Turkmen to capture or kill the navigator. All these are acts of war and constitute deliberate hostile activities towards as a state who isn't at war with Turkey.

Also Turkey couldn't have fired warning shots, because it had no planes near the border, which is a clear sign that they did not wanted to "intercept", but to shoot.

They have done this 3 times, with at least one time your guys going along with the NORMAL protocol and escorting the trespasser. This time it was simply a flying route without much risk for Turkey's airspace.

How can you tolerate it? How can Greece and Armenia tolerate your planes crossing without shooting you down. One this is sure, your plane crosses next time to Armenia, it goes down, air craft cross the Syrian border they go down, your country instated such a ROE, it will have to live with it.

The rest I told you is unwarranted, this is going down, and you're responsible for it. First time I actually understand how our guys in the north can accept Kanun.

Nope the only ones that got a profit from that situation are the guys you arm and equip, now those guys are going the way of the wind in little pieces. And they have one person to thank, Reçep Tayip Erdogan. Both interests were already in opposite directions, now you shot a Russian plane they're on a crash course.

These are pretty damning words, and from a senior figure in a key NATO government

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20151126/1030773558/Germany-Turkey-plane-downing.html

German Vice-Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel has lashed out at Turkey for this week’s downing of a Russian bomber over Syria close to the Turkish border, German media reported on Wednesday.

“This incident showed that, based on statements from other countries in the region, there is a player in the region who is unpredictable and that is Turkey and not Russia,” Gabriel told the weekly newsmagazine Der Spiegel.

He added that “Turkey has played a difficult role' in the Syrian conflict.”

On Tuesday a Russian Sukhoi Su-24 bomber crashed on Syrian territory four kilometers from the Turkish border.

President Vladimir Putin later said that the plane had been shot down by an air-to-air missile fired by a Turkish F-16.

The Russian Defense Ministry said in a statement that the Su-24 had not violated the Turkish border.

Ankara, for its part, insists that the Russian plane had indeed strayed into the country’s airspace.

Many leading European politicians have criticized Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan over Tuesday’s incident with the Russian military jet.

On Tuesday, German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier urged Turkey and Russia to exercise restraint and act in a rational and prudent manner in the wake of the incident which he labeled as “serious.”

http://www.rg.ru/2015/11/26/pilot.html

Shoigu (excerpt form press report) :

This plan has already been adopted by the Supreme commander. "I ask all concerned to proceed with its immediate execution", - said defense Minister Sergei Shoigu on Wednesday morning at the Board of the military Department. He promised that the Ministry of defense of Russia in the future, as before, will not leave without attention such incidents. The more that downed in Syria bomber su-24 is a special case.

First reactions of our military became known on Tuesday night. The chief of the Main operations Directorate of the General staff Sergey Rudskoy urgently gathered for a briefing of journalists and in addition to the details of the morning incident, said the about three primary steps. In addition, Russia stopped the contacts with Turkey on the military line, solved all of our attack aircraft in Syria to carry out only with cover of fighter planes.

And yet it is, in essence, is about creating in the Syrian sky solid zone defense. This task will fall on the cruiser of the black sea fleet "Moscow", equipped with anti-aircraft missile complex "Fort". Shoigu reported that the cruiser has taken a new place of combat duty in the coastal area of Latakia, where, according to Shoigu, "ready to destroy any aerial target, representing a potential threat to our aircraft".

In addition, Shoigu announced that by the decision of the Supreme commander to provide air defense on all fronts in Syria to the airfield is thrown Hamim anti-aircraft missile system s-400.

Thus, in addition to existing means of defense "Pantsir-S1" (these anti-aircraft missile and gun systems short-range already cover the base) our military will get more powerful weapons - defense system long range land and sea-based.

It is clear that lobbing rockets right and left, no one is going. But if necessary, when our base or in the air bombers, attack planes and fighter jets will face a real threat of foreign attack aircraft, as happened with the su-24, a formidable Arsenal allowed into the course. And missiles can reach the target in the sky for hundreds of kilometers from the location of Russian anti-aircraft.

For their transfer to Syria there is a strong argument. Now the actions of our combat aircraft is mainly tracked by satellite. After you deploy the "chetyrehsot" and ship analogs With-300 - and it's not only launchers, but also a powerful radar - virtually all of Syria's territory and a significant part of its neighbouring States will be under continuous radar field of our defense systems.
What will it give? Experts are convinced then no plane and no drone will not be able to approach uncontrollably in the air Russian crews. Such purpose immediately appears on the radar screens, and they in time will become known to our pilots. Alien crew, as required, will warn the earth about the dangerous rapprochement with the Russian machine. And if it's a dangerous maneuver to continue, will threaten the safety of our pilots, will ask the fighters of cover-up, or missile defense systems.

Very eloquent feature is installed on the cruiser "Moscow" the ship's air defense system "Fort" gave the former black sea fleet commander, Admiral Viktor Kravchenko. RIA Novosti he said that the naval version of s-300 can use radar to detect a target at a distance of 450 kilometers, and to destroy - at ranges of up to 350 kilometers, which allows almost full control of the Syrian-Turkish border from the Mediterranean sea.

- The task for the cruiser "Moskva" doable General staff is well aware of his tactical and technical data, - said the Admiral.

In addition, the review of airspace "Fort" is in an off-line search purposes. Multifunction radar, which is a part of its control system, ensures high precision of the support 6 aerial objects and the mouse 12 missiles in conditions of exposure to active and passive interference. To fire at targets this complex can in any direction. And the rigidity of the antenna post and electronic stabilization of the beam antennas provide pointing accuracy of the missiles even with strong pitching of the ship. As for the famous s-400, in particular advertising, she doesn't need. "Triumph" can at a distance of 400 kilometers to conduct simultaneous firing 36 goals and to build on them to 72 rockets. So, the opportunity to meet in the Syrian sky with this interceptor from anyone will kill the desire to play on the nerves of our military.

Mustafa wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Mustafa wrote:

higurashihougi wrote:From the communists

Communist deputy of the State Duma Vadim Solovyov came up with a proposal to expel Turkish construction companies from Russia, as well as to ban the imports of Turkish foodstuffs and textiles, Izvestia daily said.

"By its unexpected escapade, Turkey calls into question a possibility of political and, on top of that, economic trust in it," it quoted Solovyov.

"Much has been said about severing relations in the tour industry but this isn’t the only sphere where our countries have had close cooperation," he said. "Turkish companies are engaged in many landmark construction projects in Russia, like the Federation Tower in the Moskva City business center."

"Why should we allow the companies from a country, which doesn’t support our policies and cooperates with terrorist groupings, make money here?" he asked somewhat rhetorically.

Because economy has nothing to do with politics. I dont see the connection

That's retaliation for an act of war.

crossing airspace illegal was also act of war. As i said, a bad mistake was done and our nations need to speak with each other to make sure that won´t happen again.

I already said i´m sorry for what happened. I think it would have been better to fire warning shots.

But i also have one question, how can we get russia to finally accept to not cross our airspace? They did this again and again and there were already high rank talks about this.

Look...face reality. The only one who profits from our nations argueing are the terrorists. Thats the basic fact. Russia alone can win nothing in syria and putin knows that. Turkey and Russia must work together.

We have interests, russia has interests. The goal must be to bring both together.

Sorry, but that is plainly incorrect. Miniscule airspace violations (and I am still not convinced it occurred) are not an automatic act of war in any internationally recognized conventions (it's just Turkish nationalist propaganda that is being fed to Turkish people). Also, certain procedures must be followed in a case of an airspace violation, none of which was done. However, a premeditated ambush of a Russian jet (from a supposedly "friendly" country to Turkey) IS an act of war. If tiny airspace violations were an act of war, Turkey would effectively be at war with all of it's neighbours. Glad we got that cleared out of the way.

You can't. Your best course of action is to ignore the little non-threatening violations that obviously could not be helped (like what Turkey's neighbours are doing all the time), and if a serious violation is committed (i.e. a plane heading on direct course INTO Turkish airspace), you would need to send an intercept, make visual and radio contact with the violator and identify them, make it known visually that you are escorting him out. If he refuses, jam him, paint him with radar and maybe give a warning shot in front of him. After that, make a formal diplomatic protest, and maybe try to negotiate some kind of a compromise. You know, the typical things that people do (I hear Greeks are masters of this art when it comes to Turkish violations). Turkish uncompromising stance such as "I will shoot anything Russian/Syrian that enters Turkish airspace even for a second" is simply diplospeak for "it is unacceptable for Russians and Syrians to fly in Syrian airspace near our borders" and "I want a no fly-zone to extend into Syria". Do you understand the problem now?

Problem is, now that this Turkish stunt has happened, it is unlikely that Russia will give a shit about Turkish interests in the area or will be interested in a compromise. If a compromise b/w Russian and Turkish interests in Syria is ever reached, Turkey would have to make A LOT of concessions to Russia in order to ameliorate what has occurred. Since such a compromise was not reached before now, when the concessions offered by both sides would not have been so severe, it is even more difficult to imagine it now, as Turkey would be expected to soften its Syrian position even further (and Erdogan is known to be a stubborn and uncompromising neo-imperialist).

Make of it what you will, id like to think its a reminder not to tar everyone with the same brush. And for those who say football crowds are made up of riff-raff, football fans can often surprise.

http://sputniknews.com/sport/20151126/1030782738/russia-turkey-football-national-anthem.html

Turkish supporters cheered the Russian national anthem during a game between the women’s national football teams of Russia and Turkey, said Ivan Genkenev, an official representative of the Russian team, according to Gazeta.ru.

According to Genkenev, the mood at the Turkish stadium was calm although there were almost 3,000 Turkish supporters in the stadium.

"The situation was perfectly normal… Fans behaved very well. Everyone applauded the Russian anthem and after the game they thanked our team. We cheered [Turkish fans] in response. They supported their own players and our players. We didn't feel any negative feelings," the Russian women's national football team representative said.

The game itself ended in a 0-0 draw. Both teams are in Group 5, trying to qualify for the 2017 UEFA Women's Championship in the Netherlands. The draw allowed both teams to gain a point and now they're sharing the 4th and the 5th positions, respectively. Germany currently leads the group with 12 points.

Regardless of what's going on politically between the two countries, Turkish fans stayed sympathetic to Russia. Football once again proved to be beyond politics.


© SPUTNIK/ ALEXANDER VILF
Protesters Assemble Near Turkish Embassy in Moscow After Downing of Su-24
Relations between Russia and Turkey became strained after the Turkish Air Force shot down a Russian Su-24 bomber on Tuesday.
Several hundred people gathered on Wednesday in front of the Turkish Embassy in Moscow to protest Ankara's actions. Some protesters were holding Russian and Syrian flags, as well as placards condemning Turkey's actions.

Russian President Vladimir Putin described the Turkish attack on the Russian plane as a "stab in the back" carried out by "accomplices of terrorists."



Read more: http://sputniknews.com/sport/20151126/1030782738/russia-turkey-football-national-anthem.html#ixzz3sb4pBggm

KoTeMoRe wrote:

So i can't get into Turcophobia, because of this.

Well, I want to sort this affair out. It is not "Turkophobia" as that implies a fear and dislike of the people and their culture, and I do not have this. It is the state of Turkey that has commited an act of war against Russia and so the word Turk and Turkish are the only ones that can be used. There is an implication that simply to state the obvious that Turkey has done this is somehow "Turkophobic". What other words or phrases are to be used other than Turk, "The people from central Asia who invaded and occupy Anatolia and Thrace" perhaps...  But no, it is ridiculous. Mentioning the historical aspects is also not "Turkophobic" as to know why we are at a certain point today we must know how we got there, what preceded. It would even be relevant in this context to talk about the damage done to the Byzantine Empire by the Crusaders which weakened them and meant they could not repulse the Ottoman Turks who came soon after. It is all relevant, even if boring to some, and not "Turkophobic". At the beginning of the crisis in Syria, and further back in time about the entire situation in all the Levant during 20th century to today, I have written that while respecting the rights of people to self determination, it was a disaster for the Levant that the Ottoman Empire fell in 1918, tho IMO they should have lost Thrace, including Konstantinopolis as punishment for their past crimes in that region over many centuries. That is not "Turkophobic" it is normal comment about events that happened, or should happen.

Rodinazombie wrote:Make of it what you will, id like to think its a reminder not to tar everyone with the same brush. And for those who say football crowds are made up of riff-raff, football fans can often surprise.

http://sputniknews.com/sport/20151126/1030782738/russia-turkey-football-national-anthem.html

Turkish supporters cheered the Russian national anthem during a game between the women’s national football teams of Russia and Turkey, said Ivan Genkenev, an official representative of the Russian team, according to Gazeta.ru.

According to Genkenev, the mood at the Turkish stadium was calm although there were almost 3,000 Turkish supporters in the stadium.

"The situation was perfectly normal…  Fans behaved very well. Everyone applauded the Russian anthem and after the game they thanked our team. We cheered [Turkish fans] in response. They supported their own players and our players. We didn't feel any negative feelings," the Russian women's national football team representative said.

Because Erdogan & entourage is not all Turkey?

Khepesh wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

So i can't get into Turcophobia, because of this.

Well, I want to sort this affair out. It is not "Turkophobia" as that implies a fear and dislike of the people and their culture, and I do not have this. It is the state of Turkey that has commited an act of war against Russia and so the word Turk and Turkish are the only ones that can be used. There is an implication that simply to state the obvious that Turkey has done this is somehow "Turkophobic". What other words or phrases are to be used other than Turk, "The people from central Asia who invaded and occupy Anatolia and Thrace" perhaps...  But no, it is ridiculous. Mentioning the historical aspects is also not "Turkophobic" as to know why we are at a certain point today we must know how we got there, what preceded. It would even be relevant in this context to talk about the damage done to the Byzantine Empire by the Crusaders which weakened them and meant they could not repulse the Ottoman Turks who came soon after. It is all relevant, even if boring to some, and not "Turkophobic". At the beginning of the crisis in Syria, and further back in time about the entire situation in all the Levant during 20th century to today, I have written that while respecting the rights of people to self determination, it was a disaster for the Levant that the Ottoman Empire fell in 1918, tho IMO they should have lost Thrace, including Konstantinopolis as punishment for their past crimes in that region over many centuries. That is not "Turkophobic" it is normal comment about events that happened, or should happen.

Ok, we're on the same page, it was a gut reaction to that poster. Strike one for me.

Mustafa wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

George1 wrote:

Mustafa wrote:
He even made beef with nortehrn cyprus...NORTHERN CYPRUS! I didn´t even know this would be possible.

what do u mean "he made beef with Northern Cyprus"?

There is no "northern Cyprus". Cyprus is one, the Republic of Cyprus.

There is the territory Turkey invaded and occupies illegally to this very day.
They ethnically cleansed and displaced the majority of Greeks (> 200,000) and they brought about 100-150,000 settlers from Turkey to steal and live in their houses.

Apparently Erdogan managed with his politics to piss off his military occupation settlers and puppet state apparatus.
Good kemalists would never do that

You forgot to mention that the greek cypriots started a genocide against the turkish cypriots which led to our intervention. Pretty much the very same what happened in crimea. Just that it was intense in cyprus.

Genocide?  Nothing compared to the bloodbath your mob committed against the Armenians.... 1.5 MILLION men, women and children killed outright or slowly starved....

Lets add to that the Pontic genocide of the Ottoman Greeks, another 900,000....

The Turkish state STILL refuses to recognise these historical atrocities, let alone apologise and make amends....  Your attitude is symptomatic of Turkic ignorance and a culture of total denial.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Ok, we're on the same page, it was a gut reaction to that poster. Strike one for me.

Well, it it such a convoluted and ancient affair that to cross wires is rather easy and I am guilty as well. Was looking for an excuse to go further and mention names such as Palaiologos and Skanderberg, but perhaps not for here at this time...

Khepesh wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

Ok, we're on the same page, it was a gut reaction to that poster. Strike one for me.

Well, it it such a convoluted and ancient affair that to cross wires is rather easy and I am guilty as well. Was looking for an excuse to go further and mention names such as Palaiologos and Skanderberg, but perhaps not for here at this time...

Well his real name is Gjergj Kastrioti, which means George (the) Constable, Skënder Bey is his Turkish name. You call him like that in Kruja and you get 7,62 in your face. They razed the city when the Kruja castle fell, 4000 dead and executed.

In Lezha they did worse with mass rapes and forced conversion before beheadings. Let's not get there indeed.

Demonstration outside Turkish embassy in Sofia. About two hundred with Bulgarian, Russian and Syrian flags and banners saying "Retribution is inevitable", and "Russia we are with you". https://russian.rt.com/article/132861