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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow on Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:01 pm

    The US is currently building 11 Virginia class submarine . They build them much faster than Russia 885M. Now they have 17 submarines and Russia has only two 885 project  Laughing  Laughing
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:05 pm

    For a product, like  пр. 885М that greatly exceed the capabilities of Virginia class in virtually all the physical fields metrics and also in dynamics performances a price of less than 1/3 is a very good deal (even if MoD had aimed and still aim at reduce the cost of the series).

    Yes Mindstorm it appears that 47 bn rub is price formed in 2005, before the high inflation era. Then before signing 2011 contract Sevmash wanted a tripple increase to 112 bn rub, which ministry of defence refused to pay and contract was signed for 47 bn rub.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:01 pm


    Isos wrote:US are getting 1 Virginia per year. And they are not noisy.


    US Navy is procuring 2 "Virginia" class SSN at year since 2011, therefore in the next years we will see the introduction in service of two SSN of the series for year.

    The ready formation of an effcient and standardized chain production of the main component basis (including the increase in size of the bow compartment hull pieces ,to reduce time and costs of making) for this class has been, by far, the greatest achievement of the program, for which both the scientifical and economic management of the project has been awarded several times.

    From the management and engineerization of the production of Virginia there is only to learn and imitate where possible.


    If we talk instead of the in-built features of the submarine itself (both in the physical fields metrics that in dynamic and sensor suit, even more for the improved пр.885М) we can very confidently say that our designers at СПМБМ "Малахит" have greatly outpaced theris over-ocean counterparts; in a duel situation against a Virginia class, discounting any other external variable, the defeat chances would be massively unbalanced in favour of "Малахит" product.

    Naturally : "Quantity has a quality all its own", therefore the solution to the chronical problems in the formation of an efficient industrial basis for the chain production of main marine construction components must become a true central priority for the reform of that field now in course.


    Returning to the question of the cost of Virginia class , those are the typical, largely over-inflated, ones characteristic of today US military industry ($2,8 billions for each submarine of the former design and $3,2 billions each for the new with the VPM addition), 3-4 times at least the cost of a пр.885М.


    Latest info (16 April 2019) from Congressional service on Virginia class acquisition

    https://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL32418.pdf


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    Post  dino00 on Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:54 pm

    If the official price of the Virginia is 2.8 Billions and the Russian MOD says  Yasen-M costs 53%...1.5 Billions, not 740 millions, not 3.5 Billions

    I was obviously joking with the noisy-Virginia, but...

    Developer "Borei" compared it with "Virginia"

    MOSCOW, December 17 - RIA News . Russian strategic submarine of the project 955 "Borey" produces two times less noise than the American multi-purpose submarine of the type "Virginia", said the general director of the Kurchatov Institute, who participated in the development of nuclear submarines, Alexander Blagov.
    "Virginia" was adopted by the US Navy in 2004, "Borey" adopted by the Russian Navy in 2013.

    The noise of the fourth-generation atomic submarine Borey is two times less than that of the American Virginia," Blagov said on Monday during the round table "Submarine fleet to protect Russia's national interests."

    https://ria.ru/20181217/1548089645.html

    Edit: it probably had a price of 740 million dollars before sanctions, Russia mod don't pay his weapons in dollars

    Edit2: if we convert the rubles to dollars we get that in 2011 the price in dollars was ~1.6 Billions and now ~740 millions, maintaining the 47Billion rubles price

    Another myth bites the dust!
    Mindstorm was correct apologize yes sir


    Last edited by dino00 on Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:14 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Even More information)
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    Post  Arrow on Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:56 pm

    In what 885M has such an advantage over Virginia?
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    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:34 pm

    in a duel situation against a Virginia class, discounting any other external variable, the defeat chances would be massively unbalanced in favour of "Малахит" product.

    Who cares about that "duel". US has 50 SSN and will use all of them, not only 2 because russia has 2 ready Yassen.

    It's 1 vs 25 in this case.

    And just like a m-60 can destroy an armata or a t-64 can destroy an m1a2, or like a mig-21 can destroy a f-22 external conditions matters and even a LA class can destroy Yasen. Even luck matters. The more ships they have the more chances they have to win.

    Developer "Borei" compared it with "Virginia"

    What are you expecting him to say ? Those words have no value.

    If you ask Virginia's developer he will tell you the same.

    And none of them will show you any real data.
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    Post  nero on Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:31 am

    Isos wrote:Who cares about that "duel". US has 50 SSN and will use all of them, not only 2 because russia has 2 ready Yassen. It's 1 vs 25 in this case.
    Heh?

    They've got:


    • Log Angeles class: 32 in commission
    • Ohio class: 18 in commission
    • Virginia class: 17 in commission


    They're planning to phase out Log Angeles class subs and replacing them with 66 planned Virginia class subs.

    The Russian fleet is a little bit more diverse:


    • Typhoon class: 1 in commission
    • Delta class: 7 in commission
    • Borei class: 3 in commission
    • Oscar II class: 8 in commission
    • Yasen class: 1 in commission
    • Sierra class: 3 in commission
    • Victor class: 3 in commission
    • Akula class: 10 in commission
    • Kilo class: 15 in commission
    • Varshavyanka class: 6 in commission
    • Lada class: 1 in commission


    That's a total of 58 submarines. Versus the 67 submarines of the United States, which also have to deal with several other countries, in addition to guarding CSG's.

    To put things into future perspective, they currently plan to have a total of:


    • Nuclear ballistic: 10 (Borei) subs
    • Nuclear cruise: 10 (Yasen) subs
    • Attack subs: 34 (Kilo) + 12 (Lada) subs = 46 total


    Which brings the total of new submarines that will continue prospective service for quite a while up to 66. They will likely replace older Kilo-class submarines with new designs and build them accordingly.

    Effectively nothing really changes. Except that China's growing it's navy at such speeds that soon Russia and US combined will not be able to catch up. With the way things are going it's not Russia that the United States should worry about, it's China. And it's currently in the phase of building ships to defend it's trade-routes.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:38 am


    Will y'all just knock it off already with Yasens and Virginias?

    This is Borei thread, you not only have wrong sub type, you got the whole segment wrong
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:57 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Eventually the truth will become undeniable, but by then the Scribblers for Empire will have moved on to the latest disinfo, and as we all know, they NEVER look back and admit past distortions.

    Oh they do, sometimes.

    But then they just keep on doing it
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    Post  hoom on Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:14 pm

    Will y'all just knock it off already with Yasens and Virginias?

    This is Borei thread, you not only have wrong sub type, you got the whole segment wrong
    Thats probably my fault for suggesting Borei-K could allow a simpler, cheaper Husky Embarassed
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:35 am

    Actually I remember a suggestion on a Russian forum that instead of having 6-8 SSBNs that strategic ballistic missiles should be shared around every Russian sub platform... so every SSGN and indeed SSBN would carry only two SLBMs in the sail area because of its height without making the sub too much bigger and bulkier so every sub can carry SLBMs...

    It means that their eggs are spread out over an enormous number of baskets and would be much harder to defeat in a first strike attempt to disable Russia.

    It would only take seconds to launch the missiles and with proper compartmentalisation the two missiles could even be launched from a sub that has already been hit by enemy torpedoes and is in the process of sinking...

    The location of the sub and range of the missiles would determine the range of targets it could engage, but having atmosphere skipping avangard warheads allowing range extensions of thousands of kms then perhaps total actual ranges of 20,000km could be possible, which means attacks on the US from the Indian ocean or pretty much anywhere else...
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    Post  Hole on Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:46 pm

    955
    Project 955: Borei class SSBN - Page 31 027410

    955A
    Project 955: Borei class SSBN - Page 31 Be7b3e10
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    Post  Hole on Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:48 pm

    955
    Project 955: Borei class SSBN - Page 31 023710

    955A
    Project 955: Borei class SSBN - Page 31 B1013510
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:Actually I remember a suggestion on a Russian forum that instead of having 6-8 SSBNs that strategic ballistic missiles should be shared around every Russian sub platform... so every SSGN and indeed SSBN would carry only two SLBMs in the sail area because of its height without making the sub too much bigger and bulkier so every sub can carry SLBMs...

    It means that their eggs are spread out over an enormous number of baskets and would be much harder to defeat in a first strike attempt to disable Russia.

    It would only take seconds to launch the missiles and with proper compartmentalisation the two missiles could even be launched from a sub that has already been hit by enemy torpedoes and is in the process of sinking...

    The location of the sub and range of the missiles would determine the range of targets it could engage, but having atmosphere skipping avangard warheads allowing range extensions of thousands of kms then perhaps total actual ranges of 20,000km could be possible, which means attacks on the US from the Indian ocean or pretty much anywhere else...

    The SSBN is a strategic asset, putting it at risk of discovery to operate in a conventional role is not something we want to be doing with the guaranteeor of our sovereignty. It's job is to remain undiscovered so it can play the deterrent role it serves.

    The other advantage of having all of the missiles on one platform is the saturation effect of the attack. If you split them up getting to the target at different times from different directions in smaller numbers, the saturation of defences is lost.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:19 pm

    Is the A version longer ? It looks like a new typhoon with tubes for BM in the front.
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    Post  hoom on Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:53 am

    Also this pic
    Project 955: Borei class SSBN - Page 31 9435ab230dd7

    And wiki has these
    Project 955: Borei class SSBN - Page 31 KnyazVladimirSeaTrials
    Project 955: Borei class SSBN - Page 31 10-7175833-k-549

    Its a lot more blended & stern area much less prominent.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:20 am

    The three parallel holes in the starboard and port bow section above waterline look interesting. Just hatches for ballast water or perhaps they could have something to do with countermeasures.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:46 am

    The SSBN is a strategic asset, putting it at risk of discovery to operate in a conventional role is not something we want to be doing with the guaranteeor of our sovereignty. It's job is to remain undiscovered so it can play the deterrent role it serves.

    Yes, I totally agree... but this was at a time in the 1990s when some on the internet suggested Russia was over as a military power and that there would be no more funding for anything... even speculation that when NATO took on F-35s that they might sell Russia their old F-16s because Russian fighter design bureaus could not survive... they had lost their eastern europe market for selling fighters and the Russian military couldn't afford to buy many... looking back now it seems silly, but at the time most of the new stuff now like Pantsir and other things were just marketing shells... they had Mi-28Ns in pictures but the guts of the aircraft wasn't developed... they were flying early prototypes.

    Of course looking at the issue today you could actually follow through with the idea in a clever way that eliminates the issues you mentioned... if every modern sub is fitted with two external launch tubes with the nuclear propelled unlimited range cruise missiles, then in effect every sub could launch a strategic nuclear strike on any target on the planet... so even if HATO managed to destroy several SSBNs targets will still get destroyed eventually.

    For those unaware, modern subs have internal and external launch tubes... the difference is that internal ones can be reloaded from inside the sub, while external launch tubes don't hang on the outside of the hull, they are normally located between the inner and outer hull of the sub so they are always loaded and ready to fire, but cannot be reloaded... UKSK launch tubes are an example of external tubes, but there are lots of decoy and jammer and anti torpedo tubes on subs that allows things to be launched rapidly 24/7.
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    Post  xeno on Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:54 am

    The 955A looks much more advanced than the origianl 955...
    And Russians still call them 955 just like the case of 11711, you see Rassians do have some odd taste of humour...
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:36 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:The three parallel holes in the starboard and port bow section above waterline look interesting. Just hatches for ballast water or perhaps they could have something to do with countermeasures.

    Original Borei has them too, but the 955A has them in slightly different positions. Hardly surprising given the change in hull design (original 955 used hull sections from unfinished 971s)
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed May 01, 2019 2:08 am

    New Russian nuclear submarines: New quality of the Russian Navy
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    Post  Arrow on Mon May 06, 2019 4:19 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKNqVOHs71Q
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue May 07, 2019 11:45 am

    Arrow wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKNqVOHs71Q

    Meh... 17 mins of my life I won't get back.....

    Obsolete info given the author thinks the main differences between 955 and 955A is the all-moving tailplane. In reality, a 955A is as similar to a 955 as a Ohio is to a Delta IV.

    The BS about sonar signatures of the 955 is simply a joke. We are supposed to believe that genuine info from the USN regarding Borei acoustic characteristics is going to be public domain??? J fecking C... this guy is simply disseminating disinfo from "unclassified" sources that are little more than conduits of US fakery.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 07, 2019 1:34 pm

    Amusing, but the guy can't even count... he said the Bulava can carry 6 warheads and 40 decoys, so the target would see 46 incoming warheads of which only 6 would go boom.

    Pumps designed to be easily replaced not being replaced in peace time... big deal.
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    Post  dino00 on Sun May 12, 2019 11:29 pm

    And now not humped: Atomic bomber carriers change appearance for the sake of speed and noiselessness

    New submarine received a unique profile


    Strategic nuclear missile carriers of the Project 955 "Borey" got a new look. The first updated boat was the "Prince Vladimir", the tests of which are now coming to an end. According to Izvestiya sources in the military department, the superstructure was altered on the nuclear-powered icebreaker, the bows of the bow became more streamlined, but the main thing was that the hump of the rocket launch platform disappeared. Such changes improve the driving performance of Prince Vladimir, as well as increase its noiselessness when driving under water. It is possible that the transformation of Project 955 boats will continue.

    The appearance of the first "Boreya-A" is fundamentally different from its predecessors "Yuri Dolgoruky", "Alexander Nevsky" and "Vladimir Monomakh." The first thing that catches your eye is the absence of the so-called rocket launch platform for the Prince Vladimir. There are no characteristic protrusions in front of the cabin, in which the acoustic systems of the first Boreev are supposedly installed. In addition, the contours of the bow of the ship have become more streamlined.

    Changed and the appearance of the add-in. The first "Boreev" she was beveled: its front part, when viewed from the side, closer to the deck narrowed. At Prince Vladimir, the cutting area received a traditional profile.

    Full Article
    https://iz.ru/876406/aleksei-ramm-aleksei-kozachenko-bogdan-stepovoi/teper-negorbatyi-atomnye-raketonostcy-meniaiut-vneshnii-vid-radi-skorosti-i-besshumnosti

    Basically confirms what Hole said.

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