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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    max steel
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  max steel on Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:34 am

    Nuclear Missile World Record Attempt

    According to Russian media, the Northern Fleet is preparing for the next combat readiness control of its nuclear deterrence forces; a 16-missile salvo launch from submerged position in Arctic waters – a drill that has not been attempted in 25 years.

    Two of Russia’s newest strategic nuclear submarines are ready to leave for the Barents Sea. One of them will shortly be launching 16 intercontinental ballistic missiles in one salvo. The Northern Fleet plans to repeat the Soviet military operation “Behemoth”, Izvestiya writes.

    The two Borey-class submarines “Yury Dolgoruky” and “Vladimir Monomakh” are ready to conduct the exercise, but only one of them will be launching all of its 16 Bulava missiles in one salvo, the newspaper writes.

    The planned launch is not mentioned on official military websites, and news agency TASS wrote last week that the salvo will only consist of two missiles, not 16.

    Borey-class submarines are the main element of the naval part of Russia’ nuclear triad. Capable of carrying 16 Bulava missiles, each with six to ten nuclear warheads, they can stay hidden under the Arctic ice cap and reach targets more than 9000 kilometers away.

    Russia plans to build a total of eight such submarines. Three are already in active service, and the next four are being tested or are under different stages of construction.

    “Yury Dolgoruky” has launched five Bulava missiles since 2011. All the launches have been considered to be a success. “Vladimir Monomakh” has had only one successful launch of the Bulava missile, in September 2014. An attempted two-missile salvo in November 2015 was partly successful, with one of the missiles hitting its target on Kamchatka.

    “Behemoth” was an exercise the Soviet Union conducted in 1991. It was viewed as a possible scenario of a nuclear war against the United States and was executed to confirm the possibility and safety of a quick underwater salvo.

    On August 6, 1991, the Delta-IV submarine “Novomoskovsk” performed a full salvo underwater launch, launching all 16 SS-N-23 missiles on board. The whole salvo took 3 minutes and 44 seconds, with a 14 second interval between launches. During this time the submarine expelled more than 650 tons of weight. The 1st and the 16th missiles hit their targets at Kura testing range on the Kamchatka peninsula, while the rest were self-destructed in flight, according to Wikipedia. This event is still considered to be a world record, Izvestiya writes.

    As previously reported, Russia has been conducting tests with the Bulava missile since 2004. Until 2009, there were 6 failures in 13 flight tests and one failure during ground test, blamed mostly on substandard components. After a failure in December 2009, further tests were put on hold and a probe was conducted to find out the reasons for the failures. Testing was resumed one year later, and of the ten tests that have been conducted since then, only one has failed.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  jhelb on Tue May 10, 2016 11:47 am

    George1 wrote:Source: Pacific Fleet in the 2020s will have four "Borei"

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2701062&usg=ALkJrhiKws1Ys6WE3RcO2Stn4ytRNy4wVA

    Hey George, the Borei Class is roughly of the same size as the Ohio Class. So why does the Borei carry just 16 Bulava missiles whereas the Ohio can carry 24 Trident missiles?

    https://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/19/23/76/64/submar10.jpg

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  George1 on Tue May 10, 2016 11:54 am

    jhelb wrote:
    George1 wrote:Source: Pacific Fleet in the 2020s will have four "Borei"

    Подробнее на ТАСС:
    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2701062&usg=ALkJrhiKws1Ys6WE3RcO2Stn4ytRNy4wVA

    Hey George, the Borei Class is roughly of the same size as the Ohio Class. So why does the Borei carry just 16 Bulava missiles whereas the Ohio can carry 24 Trident missiles?

    https://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/19/23/76/64/submar10.jpg

    Borei II class will cary 20 as far as i know. The reason is that they were built in different eras and the nuclear warheads they carry, must comply with the most recent START treaty. Even the ohio class ships now carry less than 24 trident missiles due to START restrictions


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Austin on Mon May 16, 2016 4:42 pm

    Upgraded strategic missile "Bulava" will significantly improve the effectiveness of submarine project "Northwind" - general designer
    05.16.2016 17:00:50
    http://militarynews.ru/story.asp%3Frid%3D1%26nid%3D413162


    Moscow. 16th of May. Interfax-AVN - Intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) sea-based "Bulava" in the next two or three years will be upgraded under the nuclear submarine strategic improved Project 955-A, told the general designer of the Moscow Institute of Thermal Technology (MIT), Yuri Solomonov.

    "In the next two to three years will be released next, a fourth body (nuclear submarine 955-A project" Prince Vladimir ") And in relation to this new generation of submarines and missile system." Bulava "will also be modernized," - said Yu Solomonov.

    According to him, it will be a modernization, "which will increase the efficiency of this complex in relation to the possibility of operating as a part of modernized missile cruisers".

    He recalled that the "Bulava" was created for 10-12 years. "And came the natural process of updating the design and technical solutions" - said Yu.Solomonov.

    At the end of May 2012 the Russian Defense Ministry and defense companies have signed three contracts on upgraded strategic missile submarine 955-A project with power nuclear arms. With CDB for Marine Engineering "Rubin" signed a contract for the design of the head of the modernized "Boreas", now "Sevmash" - for its construction, with the United Shipbuilding Corporation - for the construction of four modernized production "Boreas".

    P30 3M30 "Bulava" (RSM-56 - for use in international treaties, SS-NX-30 - according to NATO classification) - Russia's newest three-stage solid-fuel missile, designed for arming prospective nuclear-powered strategic missile project "Northwind".

    The missile is capable of carrying multiple independently targetable hypersonic nuclear blocks. "Bulava" will be the basis of a promising group of Russia's strategic nuclear forces to 2040-2045 years

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  rambo54 on Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:42 pm

    seems that one of the Boreys is back at Sevmash as new image of Severodvinsk shows


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:52 pm

    Hey George, the Borei Class is roughly of the same size as the Ohio Class. So why does the Borei carry just 16 Bulava missiles whereas the Ohio can carry 24 Trident missiles?

    The current international treaty on strategic weapons limits both sides to about 1,200-1,500 warheads each.

    If the Borei class had 24 Bulava missiles, that would mean up to 240 warheads per boat, and 24 x 6 = 144 warheads per boat, so assuming 1/3rd of warheads per triad branch that means 400-500 warheads for the Navy... I don't think they will be happy with just 2-3 Boreis.

    Having 12-16 tubes means they can have 8 or so Boreis which is a much more sensible distribution of warheads... ie 12 missiles with 6 warheads is 72 warheads per boat, while 16 missiles is 96 missiles per boat. Or 576 warheads for 98 boats at 12 missiles and 6 warheads, and 768 warheads for 16 missiles per boat with 8 boats.

    I would think 10 missiles and two S-500s launchers would be an interesting loadout.... Twisted Evil


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:14 pm

    GarryB wrote: I would think 10 missiles and two S-500s launchers would be an interesting loadout.... Twisted Evil

    sooner or later AAD missiles will be installed on subs and I am not talking about MANPADs. Now question what will be first? cancellation of START-3 or need to install AAD complexes o Subs

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_trafo on Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:36 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote: I would think 10 missiles and two S-500s launchers would be an interesting loadout.... Twisted Evil

    sooner or later AAD missiles will be installed on subs and I am not talking about MANPADs. Now question what will be first? cancellation of START-3 or need to install AAD complexes o Subs

    Doesn't make sense to put air deffence onto nuclear subs.

    Where is it getting the targeting data underwater?
    The airplane is allways in better positin to destroy a sub on the surface than a sub to destroy an airplane.


    They put air deffense onto kilos because they has to go to the surface to recharge the batteries.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Svyatik on Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:14 pm

    Regarding the news posted by max steel on the top of this page about the plan to launch a salvo of Bulava missiles a couple of months earlier, has anyone heard of the outcome? I've seen that announcement of the plan as well and so far I've not found anything about how it proceeded yet; no news, video clip - not even a VK group of Russian submarines enthusiasts that I stalk posted anything about it.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:32 am

    Doesn't make sense to put air deffence onto nuclear subs.

    S-500 has little to do with air defence... it is practically a mobile ABM system.

    On an SSBN it could be used to interfere with the US satellite array to weaken it ahead of an attack...



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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_trafo on Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Doesn't make sense to put air deffence onto nuclear subs.

    S-500 has little to do with air defence... it is practically a mobile ABM system.

    On an SSBN it could be used to interfere with the US satellite array to weaken it ahead of an attack...


    Still, who will provide the targeting data?

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:15 am

    For satellites the same channel that sends launch commands to SSBNs could transmit details of problematic satellites that might need to be dealt with.

    Of course there are already widely deployed expendable sonarbuoys that can detect or help triangulate a submerged vessel... would not be that hard to develop a floating platform that could be released from submarine that surfaces after 10 minutes or an hour and has a 360 degree IFF system and IIR sensor package on board... any detected enemy anti sub helos would be real serious targets due to the threat they pose... and a medium range missile with Morfeis IIR seeker fitted would be a perfect match as it has lock on after launch capability, so the platform could detect multiple threats and several missiles are launched cued to turn to and acquire those targets after launch... while the sub itself goes deep and leaves the area.

    You could even containerise the system and push it off a container ship at sea to be activated by satellite over head when a US carrier group passes through the area...


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_trafo on Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:07 am

    GarryB wrote:For satellites the same channel that sends launch commands to SSBNs could transmit details of problematic satellites that might need to be dealt with.

    Of course there are already widely deployed expendable sonarbuoys that can detect or help triangulate a submerged vessel... would not be that hard to develop a floating platform that could be released from submarine that surfaces after 10 minutes or an hour and has a 360 degree IFF system and IIR sensor package on board... any detected enemy anti sub helos would be real serious targets due to the threat they pose... and a medium range missile with Morfeis IIR seeker fitted would be a perfect match as it has lock on after launch capability, so the platform could detect multiple threats and several missiles are launched cued to turn to and acquire those targets after launch... while the sub itself goes deep and leaves the area.

    You could even containerise the system and push it off a container ship at sea to be activated by satellite over head when a US carrier group passes through the area...

    No argument about that it is technicaly possible.

    However launching SAM from an SSBN compromising it position.
    The SAM restricted in its use, you can use it against stationary/known position objects ( satelite), and the cost of carrying platform is extremly high.

    If you use mobile / ship platform that cost way less,and doesn't decrease the SSBN capacity.

    Russia is quite wide, from its territory/coastline is possible to shoot down practicaly every satelite in 60 minutes time, without the need to go to the deep ocean.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:15 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:If you use mobile / ship platform that cost way less,and doesn't decrease the SSBN capacity.

    It does because the Borei is already lacking a enough VLS tubes for SLBMs.
    16 is a very small number to begin with.

    For them big boys like 24-tube Ohios, this could remotely make sense. Especially when they're heading back or near home from patrols.
    Still the whole idea is...meh study

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:37 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Singular_trafo wrote:If you use mobile / ship platform that cost way less,and doesn't decrease the SSBN capacity.

    It does because the Borei is already lacking a enough VLS tubes for SLBMs.
    16 is a very small number to begin with.

    For them big boys like 24-tube Ohios, this could remotely make sense. Especially when they're heading back or near home from patrols.
    Still the whole idea is...meh study

    16 is more enough to turn any nation into nuclear dust, the next borei's will have 20 not that you even need that many ICBMs for one single nation thats just overkill.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:51 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Singular_trafo wrote:If you use mobile / ship platform that cost way less,and doesn't decrease the SSBN capacity.

    It does because the Borei is already lacking a enough VLS tubes for SLBMs.
    16 is a very small number to begin with.

    For them big boys like 24-tube Ohios, this could remotely make sense. Especially when they're heading back or near home from patrols.
    Still the whole idea is...meh study

    16 is more enough to turn any nation into nuclear dust, the next borei's will have 20 not that you even need that many ICBMs for one single nation thats just overkill.

    I don't disagree, just stressed that Russian subs were for some reason designed to carry only 16 or in future 20 SLBMs.
    Despite being as large/heavy as the older Ohios. So that doesn't allow for many alternatives.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  max steel on Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:03 pm

    USN likes to carry all its eggs in one basket which can be a disadvantage unlike Russia with distributed lethality of SSBNs.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:13 pm

    max steel wrote:USN likes to carry all its eggs in one basket which can be a disadvantage unlike Russia with distributed lethality of SSBNs.

    Afaik Russia only plans for 13 Boreis, incl. the 16-tube first batch.
    USN has 14, 24-tube Ohios with a further 4, 16-tube Vanguards by the RN.

    All that is in the water right now.

    So what about distributing lethality?

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  max steel on Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:22 pm

    Borei class
    Typhoon class
    Delta III and Delta IV classes

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:33 pm

    max steel wrote:Borei class
    Typhoon class
    Delta III and Delta IV classes

    Oh I see, so that's 9-10, 16-tube boomers. Cool.
    Still yet to see the lethality distribution or plan of it thereof.

    Not sure if the remaining couple of Delta III or one Typhoon are active as rotating patrol SSBNs and not testbeds/conversions.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  max steel on Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:39 pm

    Instead of relying on one class of sub they have distributed nukes among various ssbn's ( distribution )

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_trafo on Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:00 pm

    max steel wrote:Instead of relying on one class of sub they have distributed nukes among various ssbn's ( distribution )


    Cost benefit calculation.

    For a nucelar sub you need one reactor fore each ship (at least) and ful crew ect.

    Means if you have twenty sub with 1 rocket each, or one sub with twenty rocket then the cost will be say 10% less than if you use the former configuration.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:21 am

    Afaik Russia only plans for 13 Boreis, incl. the 16-tube first batch.
    USN has 14, 24-tube Ohios with a further 4, 16-tube Vanguards by the RN.

    Errr... more like 8 Boreis... with the total warheads allowed being 1,500 that means 500 per branch of service... 8 x 16 x 6 = 768 which is already too many...

    12 x 6 x 8 = 576 which is a much better number...


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:10 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    max steel wrote:Borei class
    Typhoon class
    Delta III and Delta IV classes

    Oh I see, so that's 9-10, 16-tube boomers. Cool.
    Still yet to see the lethality distribution or plan of it thereof.

    Not sure if the remaining couple of Delta III or one Typhoon are active as rotating patrol SSBNs and not testbeds/conversions.

    The Typhoons have long been pulled from the active fleet, they no longer patrol carrying missiles and Russia is going to decommission the Deltas with each Borei

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:15 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Afaik Russia only plans for 13 Boreis, incl. the 16-tube first batch.
    USN has 14, 24-tube Ohios with a further 4, 16-tube Vanguards by the RN.

    Errr... more like 8 Boreis... with the total warheads allowed being 1,500 that means 500 per branch of service... 8 x 16 x 6 = 768 which is already too many...

    12 x 6 x 8 = 576 which is a much better number...

    Oh so it's just 8. Actually that's a terribly small number of launching platforms on patrol (say max. of 4 at any given time).
    Given that there's always a good 50 active USN SSNs out there. Not counting other NATO SSN/SSKs.

    Are the Delta IVs being kept online past 2020?
    Sounds like Russia is planning to give up some serious ground in the SSBN business.

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