Project 955: Borei class SSBN

PapaDragon wrote:

walle83 wrote:.....
True, but at this speed the last sub wont be deliverd untill 2030. The plan was, if i remember correctly, that all 8 submarines would have been comissioned by 2020.

Later ones will be built and tested faster, same as any ship class. Just look at Yasen pace.

As for that plan you mentioned, it's a plan from decade ago. Long since ditched.

Yes its "ditched" becouse of delays over and over again. And what makes u think that things will go faster and faster? If anything production of new naval vessels has slowed down the last 2 years.

walle83 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

walle83 wrote:.....
True, but at this speed the last sub wont be deliverd untill 2030. The plan was, if i remember correctly, that all 8 submarines would have been comissioned by 2020.

Later ones will be built and tested faster, same as any ship class. Just look at Yasen pace.

As for that plan you mentioned, it's a plan from decade ago. Long since ditched.

Yes its "ditched" becouse of delays over and over again. And what makes u think that things will go faster and faster? If anything production of new naval vessels has slowed down the last 2 years.

Pfftt.... More of this "Chicken Little" bullshit and the sky is falling...

FFS the facts simply don't support your conjecture re the Boreis:

Dolgorukiy: laid down Nov 1996, commissioned Jan 2013 - 17 years (*)
Nevsky: laid down Mar 2004, commissioned Dec 2013 - <10 years
Monomakh: laid down Mar 2006, commissioned Dec 2014 - <8 years
Kynaz Vladimir: laid down Jul 2012, due to be commissioned Dec 2018 - 6.5 years

Another 4 laid down between Jul 2014 and Dec 2016...

(*) much of this delay was due to the cancellation of the R-39M Bark SLBM and the subsequent redesign for the Bulava.

Now, please explain WTF you are talking about? Its crystal clear that production has only accelerated from very poor beginnings (resulting from Yelstins "meltdown" era). Heck, teh first 3 used hull segments from unfinished Akula IIs so if anything the acceleration is understated by these figures....

Its too soon to gauge how the Yasen build program is faring, but I'd be surprised it that didn't speed up as well. Keep in mind that a good portion of the RuN SSN/SSGN fleet is currently in for upgrade, so there is a veritable fuck-ton of work ongoing... so i'm sure the Ruskies are really sorry if progress doesn't meet with your approval... oh the horror...

Big_Gazza wrote:

walle83 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

walle83 wrote:.....
True, but at this speed the last sub wont be deliverd untill 2030. The plan was, if i remember correctly, that all 8 submarines would have been comissioned by 2020.

Later ones will be built and tested faster, same as any ship class. Just look at Yasen pace.

As for that plan you mentioned, it's a plan from decade ago. Long since ditched.

Yes its "ditched" becouse of delays over and over again. And what makes u think that things will go faster and faster? If anything production of new naval vessels has slowed down the last 2 years.

Pfftt....  More of this "Chicken Little" bullshit and the sky is falling...  

FFS the facts simply don't support your conjecture re the Boreis:

Dolgorukiy: laid down Nov 1996, commissioned Jan 2013 - 17 years (*)
Nevsky: laid down Mar 2004, commissioned Dec 2013 - <10 years
Monomakh: laid down Mar 2006, commissioned Dec 2014 - <8 years
Kynaz Vladimir: laid down Jul 2012, due to be commissioned Dec 2018 - 6.5 years

Another 4 laid down between Jul 2014 and Dec 2016...

(*) much of this delay was due to the cancellation of the R-39M Bark SLBM and the subsequent redesign for the Bulava.

Now, please explain WTF you are talking about?  Its crystal clear that production has only accelerated from very poor beginnings (resulting from Yelstins "meltdown" era).  Heck, teh first 3 used hull segments from unfinished Akula IIs so if anything the acceleration is understated by these figures....

Its too soon to gauge how the Yasen build program is faring, but I'd be surprised it that didn't speed up as well.  Keep in mind that a good portion of the RuN SSN/SSGN fleet is currently in for upgrade, so there is a veritable fuck-ton of work ongoing...  so i'm sure the Ruskies are really sorry if progress doesn't meet with your approval... oh the horror...

Laid down dosent mean a thing u know, Russia has the usual habit to lay down alot of vessels and make big news about it...then the construction is full of dealys and unknown halts in work, usualy followed with a very long trail period.
Borei has always have a very high priority and yes the are moving along, but they are also eating up alot of the budget for everything else.

PapaDragon wrote:

walle83 wrote:.....Laid down dosent mean a thing u know, Russia has the usual habit to lay down alot of vessels and make big news about it...then the construction is full of dealys and unknown halts in work, usualy followed with a very long trail period...

Every single Borei and Yasen laid down so far has been completed or is being completed, not a single one has been scraped or abandoned. Delays are always reduced with each next vessel and every completed one has performed to specs.

As for trial period, submarines​ have shortest trial periods of all Russian ships by far.

walle83 wrote:.....
Borei has always have a very high priority and yes the are moving along, but they are also eating up alot of the budget for everything else.

That is because they infinitely more important than everything else combined.

Sure, SSBNs and SSNs are by far the highest priority. They combine offensive power with stealth. But, I see that Russia has also significant building plans of big icebreakers. They can prove themselves as a specific sort of capital ships in the future. Strategic value of Sevmorput will grow year by year!

Construction is the easy part. Implementation of new technologies and all the systems is the hard part.

All the ships that were laid down were completed but they lacked the money to complete them with systems.

It's not the fault of the shipyards but the fault of the designers. Shipyards do their job at normal speed.

Isos wrote:Construction is the easy part. Implementation of new technologies and all the systems is the hard part.

All the ships that were laid down  were completed but they lacked the money to complete them with systems.

It's not the fault of the shipyards but the fault of the designers. Shipyards do their job at normal speed.

What is this "all the ships"? Which ones are you talking about?

The 11356 and 22350 have been delayed due to lack of MGT powerplants (due to Ukro treachery). The 22350 build run looks to be done as I suspect the RuN wants a follow on class, but isn't going to commit until the MCT issue is 100% fixed (they won't lay down new hulls on a promise from Saturn). They have also had issues with commissioning the long-range variant of the Redut-Polimont SAMs but that is a technical issue, not "lacking money".

The 20385 has been delayed due to the sanction preventing delivery of its MTU diesels and redesign for Kolomona units (as have the 21631s with Chinese engines). The lead unit is fitting out currently, but I'll agree that 6 years is far too long for a 2500T corvette.

The Ivan Gren is a victim of changing priorities. No need to spend more money to accelerate its completion, it'll be ready when the yard gets its shit together (no new systems on this relatively simple tank landing ship).

If you have any example of a launched vessel that is sitting at the dock for years awaiting its equipment for fitout, then pls advise. Otherwise I'm calling BS on yet another inflated pessimistic claim about RuN build programs.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Isos wrote:Construction is the easy part. Implementation of new technologies and all the systems is the hard part.

All the ships that were laid down  were completed but they lacked the money to complete them with systems.

It's not the fault of the shipyards but the fault of the designers. Shipyards do their job at normal speed.

What is this "all the ships"?  Which ones are you talking about?

The 11356 and 22350 have been delayed due to lack of MGT powerplants (due to Ukro treachery). The 22350 build run looks to be done as I suspect the RuN wants a follow on class, but isn't going to commit until the MCT issue is 100% fixed (they won't lay down new hulls on a promise from Saturn).  They have also had issues with commissioning the long-range variant of the Redut-Polimont SAMs but that is a technical issue, not "lacking money".

The 20385 has been delayed due to the sanction preventing delivery of its MTU diesels and redesign for Kolomona units (as have the 21631s with Chinese engines).  The lead unit is fitting out currently, but I'll agree that 6 years is far too long for a 2500T corvette.

The Ivan Gren is a victim of changing priorities. No need to spend more money to accelerate its completion, it'll be ready when the yard gets its shit together (no new systems on this relatively simple tank landing ship).

If you have any example of a launched vessel that is sitting at the dock for years awaiting its equipment for fitout, then pls advise.  Otherwise I'm calling BS on yet another inflated pessimistic claim about RuN build programs.

I was trying to say that construction of the structure of the ship was never a problem for russia or soviet. The problem were always with the systems or money or now engines which is not the fault of shipyards.

Because of the engine problems the yards slowed down the production, so they could keep there work force. No lay-offs. So instead of 24/7 they worked 12/5 or even less.

Big_Gazza wrote:

What is this "all the ships"? Which ones are you talking about?

The 11356 and 22350 have been delayed due to lack of MGT powerplants (due to Ukro treachery). The 22350 build run looks to be done as I suspect the RuN wants a follow on class, but isn't going to commit until the MCT issue is 100% fixed (they won't lay down new hulls on a promise from Saturn). They have also had issues with commissioning the long-range variant of the Redut-Polimont SAMs but that is a technical issue, not "lacking money".

The 20385 has been delayed due to the sanction preventing delivery of its MTU diesels and redesign for Kolomona units (as have the 21631s with Chinese engines). The lead unit is fitting out currently, but I'll agree that 6 years is far too long for a 2500T corvette.

The Ivan Gren is a victim of changing priorities. No need to spend more money to accelerate its completion, it'll be ready when the yard gets its shit together (no new systems on this relatively simple tank landing ship).

If you have any example of a launched vessel that is sitting at the dock for years awaiting its equipment for fitout, then pls advise. Otherwise I'm calling BS on yet another inflated pessimistic claim about RuN build programs.

This kind of problem is quite widespread, see Ford carrier or Zumwalt.

They had to cancel the whole Zumwalt project due to fitting issues.

What are you trying to say.... are you suggesting other countries can have problems building ships and subs?

I don't believe it...

Shouldn´t Borei-B get 20 missiles?

PapaDragon wrote:

I actually like this news, now if they would only sign on for couple of extra Yasens before 2023 that would be pretty sweet  

Kinda comforting that budget discipline makes fleet more effective lets wait till this mental-wave will reach air-craft carrier fans in admiralty

As for Yasen? yup. +7 extra too

Shouldn´t Borei-B get 20 missiles?

Why?

With 3 Borei Bs and 11 Borei As, why would you need the extra 12 missiles? 16 x 14 = 224 missiles... normal loads are 3-4 warheads per missile... that would be 672 to 896 warheads... if you wanted to you could load up to 8 warheads per missile meaning 1792... which would already violate the new START treaty...

All of them have 12 or 16 tubes... there is no need for 20 tubes... in fact they would be better if they were made slightly smaller and only had 12 tubes each...

Point is: without receiving 20 missiles (unnecessary anyway) there is no need for a Borei-B sub-class.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201805221064696617-russia-submarine-launch-missiles/?utm_source=short_direct&utm_medium=short_url&utm_content=h99t&utm_campaign=URL_shortening

4 missiles launched. All hit target. Salvo strike.

Borei A is an improved version over standard. Like T-90A over legacy T-90 example.

Improvements would mostly be in the electronics and some systems. Can be integrated later.