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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:51 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:

    What is this "all the ships"? Which ones are you talking about?

    The 11356 and 22350 have been delayed due to lack of MGT powerplants (due to Ukro treachery). The 22350 build run looks to be done as I suspect the RuN wants a follow on class, but isn't going to commit until the MCT issue is 100% fixed (they won't lay down new hulls on a promise from Saturn). They have also had issues with commissioning the long-range variant of the Redut-Polimont SAMs but that is a technical issue, not "lacking money".

    The 20385 has been delayed due to the sanction preventing delivery of its MTU diesels and redesign for Kolomona units (as have the 21631s with Chinese engines). The lead unit is fitting out currently, but I'll agree that 6 years is far too long for a 2500T corvette.

    The Ivan Gren is a victim of changing priorities. No need to spend more money to accelerate its completion, it'll be ready when the yard gets its shit together (no new systems on this relatively simple tank landing ship).

    If you have any example of a launched vessel that is sitting at the dock for years awaiting its equipment for fitout, then pls advise. Otherwise I'm calling BS on yet another inflated pessimistic claim about RuN build programs.



    This kind of problem is quite widespread, see Ford carrier or Zumwalt.

    They had to cancel the whole Zumwalt project due to fitting issues.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:41 am

    What are you trying to say.... are you suggesting other countries can have problems building ships and subs?

    I don't believe it... Rolling Eyes
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  JohninMK on Mon May 21, 2018 8:51 pm




    H I Sutton
    ‏ @CovertShores
    40m40 minutes ago

    H I Sutton Retweeted Dmitry Stefanovich

    Important and not altogether unsurprising #Russia #Submarine news. Perfect timing for my next article!


    Dmitry Stefanovich
    ‏ @KomissarWhipla

    Looks like Borei-B SSBN got cancelled after "cost-effectiveness" analysis, 6 new Borei-A planned to be built after 2023 within GPV-2027.

    After completion we'll have 14 new SSBNs: 3 Borei and 11 Borei-A.

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5218417 …
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon May 21, 2018 9:18 pm

    JohninMK wrote:

    H I Sutton

    H I Sutton Retweeted Dmitry Stefanovich

    Important and not altogether unsurprising  #Russia #Submarine news. Perfect timing for my next article!

    ......
    Looks like Borei-B SSBN got cancelled after "cost-effectiveness" analysis, 6 new Borei-A planned to be built after 2023 within GPV-2027.

    After completion we'll have 14 new SSBNs: 3 Borei and 11 Borei-A.

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5218417 …

    So that means fully uniform fleet in the sweet spot of 14 new SSBNs built without mandatory delays that come with usual model re-jiggling

    I actually like this news, now if they would only sign on for couple of extra Yasens before 2023 that would be pretty sweet Cool
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Hole on Mon May 21, 2018 9:58 pm

    Shouldn´t Borei-B get 20 missiles?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 22, 2018 12:00 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    I actually like this news, now if they would only sign on for couple of extra Yasens before 2023 that would be pretty sweet  Cool


    Kinda comforting that budget discipline makes fleet more effective Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil lets wait till this mental-wave will reach air-craft carrier fans in admiralty Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

    As for Yasen? yup. +7 extra too Smile
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 22, 2018 12:30 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    I actually like this news, now if they would only sign on for couple of extra Yasens before 2023 that would be pretty sweet  Cool


    Kinda comforting that budget discipline makes fleet more effective ..... lets wait till this mental-wave will reach air-craft carrier fans in admiralty ....

    As for Yasen? yup. +7 extra too Smile

    Best of all they will be getting 3 Boreis more this way, 14 instead of 11 overall. And once they are on the home stretch they will be building Boreis so fast and cheap that they just might get couple of SSGN versions while they are at it, Ohio style. thumbsup

    I am not against switching to Huskies from Yasens but since it will not happen until 2020s they have time to slot couple of extra Yasens into the build roster. No point letting capacities sit idle.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 22, 2018 11:05 am

    Shouldn´t Borei-B get 20 missiles?

    Why?

    With 3 Borei Bs and 11 Borei As, why would you need the extra 12 missiles? 16 x 14 = 224 missiles... normal loads are 3-4 warheads per missile... that would be 672 to 896 warheads... if you wanted to you could load up to 8 warheads per missile meaning 1792... which would already violate the new START treaty...

    All of them have 12 or 16 tubes... there is no need for 20 tubes... in fact they would be better if they were made slightly smaller and only had 12 tubes each...
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 22, 2018 12:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:.....
    All of them have 12 or 16 tubes... .

    They all have 16 tubes, that seems to be Navy's desired amount

    Also in addition to target number of 14 Borei SSBNs there is also Khabarovsk (Poseidon carrier) that is apparently Borei derivative so this also helps with uniforming the fleet

    I already mentioned possibility of making SSGN version of Borei to act as land-attack platform like Ohio -class but I also have been thinking if it would be possible to develop Oscar-class replacement from it as well?

    I know that Borei does not go as deep as Oscar but still it can go much deeper than potential enemy subs and is more silent than Oscar

    And since it reused bow from Akula it has 6 torpedo tubes to go with standard missile tubes so it would make it good platform to quickly develop Oscar replacement

    Or they could just unify the platform and use it as both anti-ship SSGN and land attack SSGN depending on armament selected



    ------------------


    https://mobile.twitter.com/CovertShores/status/998805979251822592?p=v

    #Russia will build another six BOREI-A ballistic missile #Submarines to modernize its nuclear deterrent. Indication that BOREI is deemed successful after long testing period of its missile complex. BOREI-A cutaway at hisutton.com/Borei-A.html pic.twitter.com/hz2fxn9G67
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Hole on Tue May 22, 2018 3:36 pm

    Point is: without receiving 20 missiles (unnecessary anyway) there is no need for a Borei-B sub-class.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue May 22, 2018 8:23 pm

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201805221064696617-russia-submarine-launch-missiles/?utm_source=short_direct&utm_medium=short_url&utm_content=h99t&utm_campaign=URL_shortening

    4 missiles launched. All hit target. Salvo strike.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 22, 2018 8:27 pm

    Hole wrote:Point is: without receiving 20 missiles (unnecessary anyway) there is no need for a Borei-B sub-class.

    It's not just missiles.

    It was probably case of getting 10% improved performance at 50% higher price. Not worth it, better to just build more standard ones.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue May 22, 2018 8:32 pm

    Borei A is an improved version over standard. Like T-90A over legacy T-90 example.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 22, 2018 9:13 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Borei A is an improved version over standard. Like T-90A over legacy T-90 example.

    I know, Borei-A is one getting built, Borei-B got canned
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Hole on Tue May 22, 2018 9:44 pm

    Improvements would mostly be in the electronics and some systems. Can be integrated later.
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  JohninMK on Tue May 22, 2018 11:36 pm


    H I Sutton
    ‏ @CovertShores
    16h16 hours ago

    #Russia will build another six BOREI-A ballistic missile #Submarines to modernize its nuclear deterrent. Indication that BOREI is deemed successful after long testing period of its missile complex. BOREI-A cutaway at http://www.hisutton.com/Borei-A.html




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    Hole

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Hole on Wed May 23, 2018 3:00 pm

    In 2025 they can start the development of the Borei-B and build them after 2027, to replace the "old" Borei. Turn the 3 Boreis into cruise missile/hypersonic missile/combat drone carriers.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Wed May 23, 2018 3:31 pm

    Hole wrote:In 2025 they can start the development of the Borei-B and build them after 2027, to replace the "old" Borei. Turn the 3 Boreis into cruise missile/hypersonic missile/combat drone carriers.

    Or husky SSBN so they can unify the design of SSN, SSGN and SSBN with a husky family like they are doing with plateforms like armata for army and su-27 variants for airforce.
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Hole on Wed May 23, 2018 5:02 pm

    Nuclear reactors. Propulsion System. Electronics. Many parts are already unified in the Borej and Yassen classes. The main difference are the Placement of the sonar domes and torpedo tubes and some external encasements. With Husky this will also be unified, but then the can call their subs like they want. Husky SSBN. Borei-B.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed May 23, 2018 5:51 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Hole wrote:In 2025 they can start the development of the Borei-B and build them after 2027, to replace the "old" Borei. Turn the 3 Boreis into cruise missile/hypersonic missile/combat drone carriers.

    Or husky SSBN so they can unify the design of SSN, SSGN and SSBN with a husky family like they are doing with plateforms like armata for army and su-27 variants for airforce.


    With 6 more Boreis to start construction at the same time first Husky is to be laid down I think that any potential SSBN version of Husky will have to wait until standard Husky subs reach double digit number of units.

    It pretty much coincides with build schedule. Starting with 2023 they will start working on first of six new Boreis. In 2021 they should start building first Husky SSN.

    So no new SSBN platform until at least mid-2030s (they won't be needing one anyway before then since even earliest Boreis will still be looking good by that point)

    So they will have Borei as SSBN and Husky as SSN/SSGN (don't know if those 30 VLS tubes qualify it as full SSGN so lets call stock Husky SSN for now since similarly equipped Yasen is placed in that group too)

    Only question is what will be (if any) full SSGN model?
    I am talking about replacement for Oscar-class since upgraded ones will carry 72 cruise missiles.

    If they choose to pursue full-sized SSGN platform will they go with Husky or Borei derivative?

    Let's say that they decide to go with Borei. If they go with cheapest and quickest option and just load 6 cruise missiles per one Bulava tube they will get 96 missiles capacity.

    Lets say that they want to match upgraded Oscar capacity and load 72 anti-ship missiles. That still leaves them 24 land-attack missiles as bonus.

    Best of all they can go from Oscar-class type to Ohio-class type depending on the missile load. Full land-attack or full anti-ship. Yes, 96 missiles is much less than what Ohio carries but 96 is more than enough for what Russia needs.

    Then again, they could go extra mile and redesign Borei with Bulava tubes fully replaced with UKSK. This would greatly increase missile load and create more or less full Ohio SSGN style submarine while still being able to do the job that Oscar SSGNs do simply due to Borei's default specs (speed, stealth, depth, torpedo tubes etc...)  

    Other option is to use Husky as basis for SSGN. Resulting sub would be more advanced but they would have to wait at least extra decade or more until they get one so I personally lean towards using Borei as SSGN platform.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Wed May 23, 2018 6:11 pm

    Of course a SSBN husky would come very lately. Borei are all new. They should be very good for the next 20 years.

    Only question is what will be (if any) full SSGN model? I am talking about replacement for Oscar-class since upgraded ones will carry 72 cruise missiles.

    Upgrades can add another 6-7, max 10 years. Oscars are already pretty old and almost outdated. In ten years they will need new ones. Maybe they should see if it is not better to build new ones with more VLS on a unified plateform so that the cost is high on the short term but much cheaper on the long term. In ten years they will have to replace the Oscars so the cost will be the same but with Oscars modernization in addidtion.

    SSGN are the future of russian tools for anti ship and anti carrier operations. The number of aircraft carrier are growing around them with US navy but also UK, China and maybe france getting all 2 carriers in the very near future. Plus all those "helicopter carriers" armed with f-35 and more easily accessible to more countries.

    So the SSGN are more than needeed for them.

    SSN should be used for sub hunting and only few VLS are needed for that.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed May 23, 2018 6:21 pm

    Isos wrote:Of course a SSBN husky would come very lately. Borei are all new. They should be very good for the next 20 years.

    Only question is what will be (if any) full SSGN model? I am talking about replacement for Oscar-class since upgraded ones will carry 72 cruise missiles.

    Upgrades can add another 6-7, max 10 years. Oscars are already pretty old and almost outdated. In ten years they will need new ones. ........


    In that case Borei SSGN is the way to go especially since initial batch of Huskies will be needed to replace Akulas and other older SSNs.

    Borei SSGN is definitely quickest, cheapest and most reliable option.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed May 23, 2018 7:29 pm

    Hole wrote:In 2025 they can start the development of the Borei-B and build them after 2027, to replace the "old" Borei. Turn the 3 Boreis into cruise missile/hypersonic missile/combat drone carriers.

    Wait?? scratch
    What's preventing the Drone sub from launching vertically?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed May 23, 2018 8:56 pm


    About Borei-A also having 16 missiles, there might be some tweaks to that theory:

    ...Note that on at least one of the origial Pr.0955s the missile hatches themselves do not line up exactly with the hatch covers visible on the side of the submarine....



    http://www.hisutton.com/Borei-A.html
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Hole on Wed May 23, 2018 9:54 pm

    Old "Charlie" class was called SSGN and it had only 8 missiles.

    AlfaT8: was just a suggestion. Combat drones are so "in" today.

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