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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:00 pm

    Arrow wrote:
    However the borei A compared to yassen A at least two - maybe four times cheaper. wrote:

    Why ? new Borey A use propably the same reactor, turbine, use new pump jet it is more expensive than a screw. Propably similar electronic equipment. What is so expensive in Yasen-M?


    I never think about it, but let see the differences.
    -better sonar for hunters
    -Higher top speed for hunters
    -more torpedo tube for hunters
    -deeper dive for hunters ( it is dramatically increase the cost )
    -lower noise level for hunters - the SSBNs can stay as far as they like from anything else, but the hunters has to get as close as possible

    I think the biggest ticket item is the diving deep.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:46 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Arrow wrote:

    Why ? new Borey A use propably the same reactor, turbine, use new pump jet it is more expensive than a screw. Propably similar electronic equipment. What is so expensive in Yasen-M?


    I never think about it, but let see the differences.
    -better sonar for hunters
    -Higher top speed for hunters
    -more torpedo tube for hunters
    -deeper dive for hunters ( it is dramatically increase the cost )
    -lower noise level for hunters - the SSBNs can stay as far as they like from anything else, but the hunters has to get as close as possible

    I think the biggest ticket item is the diving deep.

    and 16x ballistic missiles come for free? or at least 1 bln USD extra?

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Peŕrier on Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:25 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Arrow wrote:

    Why ? new Borey A use propably the same reactor, turbine, use new pump jet it is more expensive than a screw. Propably similar electronic equipment. What is so expensive in Yasen-M?


    I never think about it, but let see the differences.
    -better sonar for hunters
    -Higher top speed for hunters
    -more torpedo tube for hunters
    -deeper dive for hunters ( it is dramatically increase the cost )
    -lower noise level for hunters - the SSBNs can stay as far as they like from anything else, but the hunters has to get as close as possible

    I think the biggest ticket item is the diving deep.

    Except that historically, SSBNs both in the west and in Soviet Union have always sported the best sensors and communication equipment available at the moment of their design, and the best quietening technologies as well.

    And they cost far more than some torpedo tube or a stronger hull.

    Speed has been always a function of hull strength and power-to-displacement available: being the power quite always the same between contemporary SSNs and SSBNs, because usually sharing the same reactors and sometimes even the same turbines, SSBNs have always been slower because larger, far larger in displacement compared to contemporary SSNs.

    And anyway, with speed always comes noise, so there is little to no point in aiming to a greater top speed for SSBN, their first and foremost defense being quietness.

    Again from an historical standpoint, it could be noted that SSBNs have always been more expensive to build than SSN, even without taking into account their SLBMs.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:02 pm

    Can anyone explain what advantage the Borei class has over the Akula that justifies replacement?

    From what I have read the Borei sounds like a total heap of shit.

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    Isos

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:53 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:Can anyone explain what advantage the Borei class has over the Akula that justifies replacement?

    From what I have read the Borei sounds like a total heap of shit.


    It is cheaper to operate, newer technology, new missiles, better sensors, less heavy than the akula monster.

    Akulas made their time, they can't keep updating their soviet stuff because guys on the net like it. To see the real potentiel of those thing you have to operate them so if they are building them it means they are state of art. Don't believe all the bullshit of the net. No one has the true caracteristic of akuas or boreis only russian navy.

    So I can tell you that what have read is total bullshit.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:55 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:Can anyone explain what advantage the Borei class has over the Akula that justifies replacement?

    From what I have read the Borei sounds like a total heap of shit.


    And where did you read this?
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:46 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:Can anyone explain what advantage the Borei class has over the Akula that justifies replacement?

    From what I have read the Borei sounds like a total heap of shit.


    And where did you read this?

    Oh I read about it in a book called mien kampf.


    The problem with the Borei is that it only carrys 16 bulavas and the bulava is a flat out average missile with none of the anti ABM abilities of the new land based systems and because the bulava can not carry more than 10 warheads the borei is lacking in the firepower department.

    The Russian navy should focus on creating a new SLBM with better anti ABM capabilities and not creating new submarines that have no meaningfull advantage over the previous model.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:40 pm

    Please, for the love of God, can you all stop being so fucking stupid and just learn to read?

    Seriously, Nothing wrong with Borei. It's quieter, and packs a punch. And of course, has to fall within the limited numbers of nukes allowed in START treaty.

    But it sounds like I will be ignored, but obvious fucking experts from a shit forums.

    And Bulava missiles do fly irregularly like modern Russian land based missiles to avoid ABM systems.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:32 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:Can anyone explain what advantage the Borei class has over the Akula that justifies replacement?

    From what I have read the Borei sounds like a total heap of shit.


    I assume you've been reading garbage like the National Interest? Are you trying to publicly embarrass yourself? if so, congratulations, its been a wild success... lol!

    To set you straight, the Borei are a replacement for the Delta III/IV not the Typhoon/Akula. The Borei is a generational improvement on the Delta in every respect . The Typhoons are already deactivated due to the retirement of their R-39 Rif (SS-N-20) and the only active unit (Donskoi) is a test bed for Bulava and not on active combat duty. The Deltas are getting a little old and will be phased out by 2030.

    The Bulava missiles are specifically designed for defeating ABM systems, and are broadly comparable to the advanced R-29 variants such as Layner which have been developed to ensure the Deltas remain effective.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:52 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:Can anyone explain what advantage the Borei class has over the Akula that justifies replacement?

    From what I have read the Borei sounds like a total heap of shit.


    I assume you've been reading garbage like the National Interest?  Are you trying to publicly embarrass yourself?  if so, congratulations, its been a wild success...  lol!

    To set you straight, the Borei are a replacement for the Delta III/IV not the Typhoon/Akula.  The Borei is a generational improvement on the Delta in every respect .  The Typhoons are already deactivated due to the retirement of their R-39 Rif (SS-N-20) and the only active unit (Donskoi) is a test bed for Bulava and not on active combat duty. The Deltas are getting a little old and will be phased out by 2030.

    The Bulava missiles are specifically designed for defeating ABM systems, and are broadly comparable to the advanced R-29 variants such as Layner which have been developed to ensure the Deltas remain effective.  

    This x10

    Borei has less crew needed for it compared to Delta's, the missiles are more advanced but will admit Layner is up there with it in comparison, and will eventually be built enough to replace all the old Delta's then something else will be developed to replace the Borei's and it will be essentially the same situation as now.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:14 am

    Does the Phrase "Having all your eggs in one basket" ring any bells?

    Current Strategic Arms limitations agreements limit Russia to 1,500 active operational nuclear warheads, so having 20 launch tubes with 20 missiles each fitted with 10 nuke warheads means you can have a maximum of 2.5 Borei submarines because that is your limit of 500 warheads for the Russian navy.


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    ali.a.r

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  ali.a.r on Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:35 pm

    Is there a limit for what can be deployed by Navy subs? I always thought the 1550 number was for all warheads, and there was no division of warheads per service branch.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:45 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:The Bulava missiles are specifically designed for defeating ABM systems, and are broadly comparable to the advanced R-29 variants such as Layner which have been developed to ensure the Deltas remain effective.  

    Wait what? Hitler lied to me? Damn that stinking fascist rat and damn the German people and the Scandanavians for good measure..... I will have that fascist pig and all of his family shot by tomorrow no one messes with (redacted) and gets away with it.

    GarryB wrote:you can have a maximum of 2.5 Borei submarines

    Wow I cannot wait to see this half Borei this should be a good laugh.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:06 am

    Would have to be cut down the centre so only half the missiles are on board...

    Is there a limit for what can be deployed by Navy subs? I always thought the 1550 number was for all warheads, and there was no division of warheads per service branch.

    AFAIK there is no limit per branch but I dare say having all the nuclear weapons in 8 subs would defeat the purpose of the nuclear triad...

    There are limits on launch platforms and individual warheads.


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    runaway

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  runaway on Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:26 am

    GarryB wrote:

    AFAIK there is no limit per branch but I dare say having all the nuclear weapons in 8 subs would defeat the purpose of the nuclear triad...

    There are limits on launch platforms and individual warheads.

    What are you talking about?
    Russian Navy will have 8 Boreis and 7 Delta4.
    Delta 3 will probably soon be retired but thats still a hell of alot more than 500 warheads

    8 Boreis=1000 Warheads
    7 Delta 4=448 Warheads

    Starting from the fourth hull, all submarines of the Borei class will have 20 missile tubes each, versus 16 for the first three boats. If armed with the Bulava (missile) with ten warheads atop each, a single Borei-class SSBN could then carry 200 warheads - as much as the entire nuclear arsenal of the United Kingdom

    Under the terms of the treaty, the number of strategic nuclear missile launchers will be reduced by half. The treaty limits the number of deployed strategic nuclear warheads to 1,550, which is down nearly two-thirds from the original START treaty, as well as 10% lower than the deployed strategic warhead limit of the 2002 Moscow Treaty.[9] The total number of deployed warheads, however, could exceed the 1,550 limit by a few hundred because per bomber only one warhead is counted regardless of how many it actually carries.[9] It will also limit the number of deployed and non-deployed inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM) launchers, submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) launchers, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments to 800. The number of deployed ICBMs, SLBMs, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments is limited to 700.[10] The treaty allows for satellite and remote monitoring, as well as 18 on-site inspections per year to verify limits.[9]

    Under the terms of the treaty, the number of strategic nuclear missile launchers will be reduced by half. The treaty limits the number of deployed strategic nuclear warheads to 1,550, which is down nearly two-thirds from the original START treaty, as well as 10% lower than the deployed strategic warhead limit of the 2002 Moscow Treaty.[9] The total number of deployed warheads, however, could exceed the 1,550 limit by a few hundred because per bomber only one warhead is counted regardless of how many it actually carries.[9] It will also limit the number of deployed and non-deployed inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM) launchers, submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) launchers, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments to 800. The number of deployed ICBMs, SLBMs, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments is limited to 700.[10] The treaty allows for satellite and remote monitoring, as well as 18 on-site inspections per year to verify limits.[9]

    In 2009 Russia had
    Strategic forces (total) 620 Delivery vehicles and 2,787 warheads
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:47 am

    runaway wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    AFAIK there is no limit per branch but I dare say having all the nuclear weapons in 8 subs would defeat the purpose of the nuclear triad...

    There are limits on launch platforms and individual warheads.

    What are you talking about?
    Russian Navy will have 8 Boreis and 7 Delta4.
    Delta 3 will probably soon be retired but thats still a hell of alot more than 500 warheads

    8 Boreis=1000 Warheads
    7 Delta 4=448 Warheads

    Starting from the fourth hull, all submarines of the Borei class will have 20 missile tubes each, versus 16 for the first three boats. If armed with the Bulava (missile) with ten warheads atop each, a single Borei-class SSBN could then carry 200 warheads - as much as the entire nuclear arsenal of the United Kingdom

    Under the terms of the treaty, the number of strategic nuclear missile launchers will be reduced by half. The treaty limits the number of deployed strategic nuclear warheads to 1,550, which is down nearly two-thirds from the original START treaty, as well as 10% lower than the deployed strategic warhead limit of the 2002 Moscow Treaty.[9] The total number of deployed warheads, however, could exceed the 1,550 limit by a few hundred because per bomber only one warhead is counted regardless of how many it actually carries.[9] It will also limit the number of deployed and non-deployed inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM) launchers, submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) launchers, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments to 800. The number of deployed ICBMs, SLBMs, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments is limited to 700.[10] The treaty allows for satellite and remote monitoring, as well as 18 on-site inspections per year to verify limits.[9]

    Under the terms of the treaty, the number of strategic nuclear missile launchers will be reduced by half. The treaty limits the number of deployed strategic nuclear warheads to 1,550, which is down nearly two-thirds from the original START treaty, as well as 10% lower than the deployed strategic warhead limit of the 2002 Moscow Treaty.[9] The total number of deployed warheads, however, could exceed the 1,550 limit by a few hundred because per bomber only one warhead is counted regardless of how many it actually carries.[9] It will also limit the number of deployed and non-deployed inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM) launchers, submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) launchers, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments to 800. The number of deployed ICBMs, SLBMs, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments is limited to 700.[10] The treaty allows for satellite and remote monitoring, as well as 18 on-site inspections per year to verify limits.[9]

    In 2009 Russia had
    Strategic forces (total) 620 Delivery vehicles and 2,787 warheads

    The warhead inventory of 8x Borei class is 8 x 16 x 6 = 768 assuming 6x MIRV each (which is the usual max warhead count on public domain sources). In practice, they will reduce this in line with arms limitation treaties and increase the number of decoys and penetration aids. ~500 deployed warheads on 128 launchers is a good estimate IMHO.

    Deltas are aging and will be retired from combat duty. I'd expect the best hulls would be preserved and converted for special purposes, such as the BS-64 Podmoskovye mini-sub tender, or maybe as a carrier for Status-6 strategic torpedo/drone if it becomes a viable weapon, or maybe as non-nuke cruise missile carriers. The other hulls would be scrapped and maybe cannibalized for operating spares for the remaining vessels. Either way, they won't count in strategic totals in any significant way.

    BTW the 4th Borei has been launched and she has 16 tubes, not 20. USN Ohios have 24 because the sea-based leg of the US nuke triad is the primary force. Russia is a land power and concentrates on land-based missiles, so her SSBNs don't need as many tubes.

    One factor that is usually glossed over is 3rd party SSBNs. In the past, 3rd parties worked against Soviet/Russian interests as French/UK SLBM totals were clearly part of the NATO alliance, and naturally, the US refused to make any allowances when settling on missile totals under treaty. With the rise of China however, its fair to say that Chinese sea-based missiles will in Russia favour, so I wonder how long it will be until Neocons start to demand that Chinese missiles be (partially) counted against Russian totals?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 am

    The warhead inventory of 8x Borei class is 8 x 16 x 6 = 768 assuming 6x MIRV each (which is the usual max warhead count on public domain sources). In practice, they will reduce this in line with arms limitation treaties and increase the number of decoys and penetration aids. ~500 deployed warheads on 128 launchers is a good estimate IMHO.

    The 20 tubes per sub is a western estimate and quite clearly unlikely.

    They will most likely carry 3 warheads per missile with 16 missiles per boat and 8 boats so they will have about 384 warheads at sea in their Boreis.

    They still have quite a few Delta IVs which are perfectly acceptable platforms that will increase the number of warheads to just about 500.

    Most of the Russian strategic nuclear warheads are on trucks or in silos and soon to be in trains, with roughly a third more in cruise missile carrying strategic aircraft.


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    runaway

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  runaway on Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:40 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The warhead inventory of 8x Borei class is 8 x 16 x 6 = 768 assuming 6x MIRV each (which is the usual max warhead count on public domain sources). In practice, they will reduce this in line with arms limitation treaties and increase the number of decoys and penetration aids. ~500 deployed warheads on 128 launchers is a good estimate IMHO.

    The 20 tubes per sub is a western estimate and quite clearly unlikely.

    They will most likely carry 3 warheads per missile with 16 missiles per boat and 8 boats so they will have about 384 warheads at sea in their Boreis.

    They still have quite a few Delta IVs which are perfectly acceptable platforms that will increase the number of warheads to just about 500.

    Most of the Russian strategic nuclear warheads are on trucks or in silos and soon to be in trains, with roughly a third more in cruise missile carrying strategic aircraft.

    Ok, although 3 warheads per missile is easy to increase should they want or need to. The train mounted ICBM will not be counted in the 1500 limit as they are not part of the treaty.

    If the 955A will not have 20 tubes, then what is the difference to 955, maybe a reconfigured pump jet system?

    Wiki " The fourth ship of the class will be constructed under a new 955A modification. It is reported by unnamed sources that this modification will include major structural changes and probably other changes. If these reports are true, technically the fourth ship will be the lead ship of a new Borei II class, though this has not been officially confirmed."

    The Knyaz Vladimir, boat nr 4 has recently been launched and is planned to be comissioned in 2018 so it should be easy to tell from photos what the main difference is.



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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:05 pm

    Project 955s have been designed in late 80ies early 90ies, it is only natural after having completed a first batch to both correct any little design detail that has proved not satisfactory and to improve them with all technological advancements that have made themselves available between the 90ies and today.

    The first batch will likely get upgrades in around a decade, after all the 955As will be in service, to get as much as possible both logistic and capabilities communality between 955s and 955As.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:56 am


    Ok, although 3 warheads per missile is easy to increase should they want or need to. The train mounted ICBM will not be counted in the 1500 limit as they are not part of the treaty.

    The strategic arms reduction treaty, which is currently in force limits strategic weapons... that includes ICBMs on trains or trucks or in silos or even on launch platforms.

    If the 955A will not have 20 tubes, then what is the difference to 955, maybe a reconfigured pump jet system?

    Most likely all new electronics and improved weapons systems that have been perfected in the mean time that were not ready for the earlier vessel.

    There is a serious difference in what was available then and now.


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  jhelb on Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:The strategic arms reduction treaty, which is currently in force limits strategic weapons... that includes ICBMs on trains or trucks or in silos or even on launch platforms.

    What would the speed of a MIRV be in outer space ? I'm not talking about the speed of descent at which it travels towards its target once it enters the Earth's atmosphere. But the speed at which it travels in outer space.

    Can MIRVs (Russian, US) manoeuvre in outer space ? If yes how will an exo atmospheric intercept missile, intercept them ?
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:01 am

    It is hard to say what the actual speed would be... though as long as it is less than orbital speed then it will fall back to earth.

    Think of MIRV as being a bomber armed with laser guided bombs... the bomber is the bus, while the warheads when released on a path to the target will correct their fall to land as close to the target as they can all the way to impact.

    MARV is more like cruise missiles... a bit like small pilotless aircraft that fly to the target area on their own so the bus never gets anywhere near the enemy airspace.

    The MARVS can be programmed to fly planned manouvers but are unlikely to have onboard sensors that detect incoming threats... remember if the MARV is moving at 6-7km/s and the interceptor is moving at even half that then the closing speed will be over 10km/s... even a small fragment hitting at that speed will do serious damage...


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  jhelb on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:44 am

    GarryB wrote:The MARVS can be programmed to fly planned manouvers but are unlikely to have onboard sensors that detect incoming threats...

    So in that case, on what basis will the MARVs manoeuvre if they can't detect incoming threats ? In other words when do they manoeuvre ? Obviously not when an interceptor missile is approaching them because as you said, they don't have any sensors to detect the incoming missile.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:23 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The MARVS can be programmed to fly planned manouvers but are unlikely to have onboard sensors that detect incoming threats...

    So in that case, on what basis will the MARVs manoeuvre if they can't detect incoming threats ? In other words when do they manoeuvre ? Obviously not when an interceptor missile is approaching them because as you said, they don't have any sensors to detect the incoming missile.

    A MARV will fly a pre planned evasive course to the target erea.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:10 pm

    Same as a cruise missile... it will fly a pre programmed path that avoids known SAM sites and enemy positions so it can sneak up on the target and get surprise.

    Obviously for a falling warhead that is not exactly the same but a few preprogrammed and timed course changes with an ultimate turn to hit the target or get to its most effective detonation point would make it a difficult target for a hit to kill munition.


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