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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    ali.a.r

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  ali.a.r on Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:35 pm

    Is there a limit for what can be deployed by Navy subs? I always thought the 1550 number was for all warheads, and there was no division of warheads per service branch.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:45 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:The Bulava missiles are specifically designed for defeating ABM systems, and are broadly comparable to the advanced R-29 variants such as Layner which have been developed to ensure the Deltas remain effective.  

    Wait what? Hitler lied to me? Damn that stinking fascist rat and damn the German people and the Scandanavians for good measure..... I will have that fascist pig and all of his family shot by tomorrow no one messes with (redacted) and gets away with it.

    GarryB wrote:you can have a maximum of 2.5 Borei submarines

    Wow I cannot wait to see this half Borei this should be a good laugh.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:06 am

    Would have to be cut down the centre so only half the missiles are on board...

    Is there a limit for what can be deployed by Navy subs? I always thought the 1550 number was for all warheads, and there was no division of warheads per service branch.

    AFAIK there is no limit per branch but I dare say having all the nuclear weapons in 8 subs would defeat the purpose of the nuclear triad...

    There are limits on launch platforms and individual warheads.
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    runaway

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  runaway on Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:26 am

    GarryB wrote:

    AFAIK there is no limit per branch but I dare say having all the nuclear weapons in 8 subs would defeat the purpose of the nuclear triad...

    There are limits on launch platforms and individual warheads.

    What are you talking about?
    Russian Navy will have 8 Boreis and 7 Delta4.
    Delta 3 will probably soon be retired but thats still a hell of alot more than 500 warheads

    8 Boreis=1000 Warheads
    7 Delta 4=448 Warheads

    Starting from the fourth hull, all submarines of the Borei class will have 20 missile tubes each, versus 16 for the first three boats. If armed with the Bulava (missile) with ten warheads atop each, a single Borei-class SSBN could then carry 200 warheads - as much as the entire nuclear arsenal of the United Kingdom

    Under the terms of the treaty, the number of strategic nuclear missile launchers will be reduced by half. The treaty limits the number of deployed strategic nuclear warheads to 1,550, which is down nearly two-thirds from the original START treaty, as well as 10% lower than the deployed strategic warhead limit of the 2002 Moscow Treaty.[9] The total number of deployed warheads, however, could exceed the 1,550 limit by a few hundred because per bomber only one warhead is counted regardless of how many it actually carries.[9] It will also limit the number of deployed and non-deployed inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM) launchers, submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) launchers, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments to 800. The number of deployed ICBMs, SLBMs, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments is limited to 700.[10] The treaty allows for satellite and remote monitoring, as well as 18 on-site inspections per year to verify limits.[9]

    Under the terms of the treaty, the number of strategic nuclear missile launchers will be reduced by half. The treaty limits the number of deployed strategic nuclear warheads to 1,550, which is down nearly two-thirds from the original START treaty, as well as 10% lower than the deployed strategic warhead limit of the 2002 Moscow Treaty.[9] The total number of deployed warheads, however, could exceed the 1,550 limit by a few hundred because per bomber only one warhead is counted regardless of how many it actually carries.[9] It will also limit the number of deployed and non-deployed inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM) launchers, submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) launchers, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments to 800. The number of deployed ICBMs, SLBMs, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments is limited to 700.[10] The treaty allows for satellite and remote monitoring, as well as 18 on-site inspections per year to verify limits.[9]

    In 2009 Russia had
    Strategic forces (total) 620 Delivery vehicles and 2,787 warheads
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:47 am

    runaway wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    AFAIK there is no limit per branch but I dare say having all the nuclear weapons in 8 subs would defeat the purpose of the nuclear triad...

    There are limits on launch platforms and individual warheads.

    What are you talking about?
    Russian Navy will have 8 Boreis and 7 Delta4.
    Delta 3 will probably soon be retired but thats still a hell of alot more than 500 warheads

    8 Boreis=1000 Warheads
    7 Delta 4=448 Warheads

    Starting from the fourth hull, all submarines of the Borei class will have 20 missile tubes each, versus 16 for the first three boats. If armed with the Bulava (missile) with ten warheads atop each, a single Borei-class SSBN could then carry 200 warheads - as much as the entire nuclear arsenal of the United Kingdom

    Under the terms of the treaty, the number of strategic nuclear missile launchers will be reduced by half. The treaty limits the number of deployed strategic nuclear warheads to 1,550, which is down nearly two-thirds from the original START treaty, as well as 10% lower than the deployed strategic warhead limit of the 2002 Moscow Treaty.[9] The total number of deployed warheads, however, could exceed the 1,550 limit by a few hundred because per bomber only one warhead is counted regardless of how many it actually carries.[9] It will also limit the number of deployed and non-deployed inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM) launchers, submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) launchers, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments to 800. The number of deployed ICBMs, SLBMs, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments is limited to 700.[10] The treaty allows for satellite and remote monitoring, as well as 18 on-site inspections per year to verify limits.[9]

    Under the terms of the treaty, the number of strategic nuclear missile launchers will be reduced by half. The treaty limits the number of deployed strategic nuclear warheads to 1,550, which is down nearly two-thirds from the original START treaty, as well as 10% lower than the deployed strategic warhead limit of the 2002 Moscow Treaty.[9] The total number of deployed warheads, however, could exceed the 1,550 limit by a few hundred because per bomber only one warhead is counted regardless of how many it actually carries.[9] It will also limit the number of deployed and non-deployed inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM) launchers, submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) launchers, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments to 800. The number of deployed ICBMs, SLBMs, and heavy bombers equipped for nuclear armaments is limited to 700.[10] The treaty allows for satellite and remote monitoring, as well as 18 on-site inspections per year to verify limits.[9]

    In 2009 Russia had
    Strategic forces (total) 620 Delivery vehicles and 2,787 warheads

    The warhead inventory of 8x Borei class is 8 x 16 x 6 = 768 assuming 6x MIRV each (which is the usual max warhead count on public domain sources). In practice, they will reduce this in line with arms limitation treaties and increase the number of decoys and penetration aids. ~500 deployed warheads on 128 launchers is a good estimate IMHO.

    Deltas are aging and will be retired from combat duty. I'd expect the best hulls would be preserved and converted for special purposes, such as the BS-64 Podmoskovye mini-sub tender, or maybe as a carrier for Status-6 strategic torpedo/drone if it becomes a viable weapon, or maybe as non-nuke cruise missile carriers. The other hulls would be scrapped and maybe cannibalized for operating spares for the remaining vessels. Either way, they won't count in strategic totals in any significant way.

    BTW the 4th Borei has been launched and she has 16 tubes, not 20. USN Ohios have 24 because the sea-based leg of the US nuke triad is the primary force. Russia is a land power and concentrates on land-based missiles, so her SSBNs don't need as many tubes.

    One factor that is usually glossed over is 3rd party SSBNs. In the past, 3rd parties worked against Soviet/Russian interests as French/UK SLBM totals were clearly part of the NATO alliance, and naturally, the US refused to make any allowances when settling on missile totals under treaty. With the rise of China however, its fair to say that Chinese sea-based missiles will in Russia favour, so I wonder how long it will be until Neocons start to demand that Chinese missiles be (partially) counted against Russian totals?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 am

    The warhead inventory of 8x Borei class is 8 x 16 x 6 = 768 assuming 6x MIRV each (which is the usual max warhead count on public domain sources). In practice, they will reduce this in line with arms limitation treaties and increase the number of decoys and penetration aids. ~500 deployed warheads on 128 launchers is a good estimate IMHO.

    The 20 tubes per sub is a western estimate and quite clearly unlikely.

    They will most likely carry 3 warheads per missile with 16 missiles per boat and 8 boats so they will have about 384 warheads at sea in their Boreis.

    They still have quite a few Delta IVs which are perfectly acceptable platforms that will increase the number of warheads to just about 500.

    Most of the Russian strategic nuclear warheads are on trucks or in silos and soon to be in trains, with roughly a third more in cruise missile carrying strategic aircraft.
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    runaway

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  runaway on Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:40 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The warhead inventory of 8x Borei class is 8 x 16 x 6 = 768 assuming 6x MIRV each (which is the usual max warhead count on public domain sources). In practice, they will reduce this in line with arms limitation treaties and increase the number of decoys and penetration aids. ~500 deployed warheads on 128 launchers is a good estimate IMHO.

    The 20 tubes per sub is a western estimate and quite clearly unlikely.

    They will most likely carry 3 warheads per missile with 16 missiles per boat and 8 boats so they will have about 384 warheads at sea in their Boreis.

    They still have quite a few Delta IVs which are perfectly acceptable platforms that will increase the number of warheads to just about 500.

    Most of the Russian strategic nuclear warheads are on trucks or in silos and soon to be in trains, with roughly a third more in cruise missile carrying strategic aircraft.

    Ok, although 3 warheads per missile is easy to increase should they want or need to. The train mounted ICBM will not be counted in the 1500 limit as they are not part of the treaty.

    If the 955A will not have 20 tubes, then what is the difference to 955, maybe a reconfigured pump jet system?

    Wiki " The fourth ship of the class will be constructed under a new 955A modification. It is reported by unnamed sources that this modification will include major structural changes and probably other changes. If these reports are true, technically the fourth ship will be the lead ship of a new Borei II class, though this has not been officially confirmed."

    The Knyaz Vladimir, boat nr 4 has recently been launched and is planned to be comissioned in 2018 so it should be easy to tell from photos what the main difference is.



    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:05 pm

    Project 955s have been designed in late 80ies early 90ies, it is only natural after having completed a first batch to both correct any little design detail that has proved not satisfactory and to improve them with all technological advancements that have made themselves available between the 90ies and today.

    The first batch will likely get upgrades in around a decade, after all the 955As will be in service, to get as much as possible both logistic and capabilities communality between 955s and 955As.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:06 am


    Bulava launch from Yuri Dolgorukii SSBN

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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:32 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Bulava launch from Yuri Dolgorukii SSBN


    Second was bit loser to fall back to the water before the engine ignition.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:22 am

    That was really quite an amazing piece of footage, with that 2nd missile doing a nice "power slide" on the way up.  Very Happy

    Judging by the trajectories, I presume that these test firings are conducted with the SSBN at a less than optimal attitude, eg with a severe list and down at the bow?  sub-optimal pressures in the missile ejection systems?  All to simulate getting the payloads away in less than ideal conditions or with ship systems compromised by battle damage?
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:27 am

    The second missile looks like they tested intentionaly the missile in some back up mode if the start doesn't work correctly to see if the software is well adapted for different situations. They wouldn't have shown the video if it had really some issues because US expert could have analyzed the problem and it would have been a secret given to US.

    walle83

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  walle83 on Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:43 am

    The fourth Borei will now be comissioned in 2019.
    http://tass.com/defense/1001781

    So would be suprised if more then 4 submarines will be in service by 2020.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:41 am

    walle83 wrote:The fourth Borei will now be comissioned in 2019.
    http://tass.com/defense/1001781

    So would be suprised if more then 4 submarines will be in service by 2020.

    First sub in new series, delays are unsurprising.

    What matters is that they are getting laid down and built, they will be delivered soon or a later.

    Most important thing is to avoid Gorshkov-style clustefuck where they stop building ships and give up.

    Boreis are built and will be coming online, that's the important thing. Hopefully they order more Yasens as well.

    walle83

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  walle83 on Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:49 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    walle83 wrote:The fourth Borei will now be comissioned in 2019.
    http://tass.com/defense/1001781

    So would be suprised if more then 4 submarines will be in service by 2020.

    First sub in new series, delays are unsurprising.

    What matters is that they are getting laid down and built, they will be delivered soon or a later.

    Most important thing is to avoid Gorshkov-style clustefuck where they stop building ships and give up.

    Boreis are built and will be coming online, that's the important thing. Hopefully they order more Yasens as well.

    True, but at this speed the last sub wont be deliverd untill 2030. The plan was, if i remember correctly, that all 8 submarines would have been comissioned by 2020.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:29 am

    walle83 wrote:.....
    True, but at this speed the last sub wont be deliverd untill 2030. The plan was, if i remember correctly, that all 8 submarines would have been comissioned by 2020.

    Later ones will be built and tested faster, same as any ship class. Just look at Yasen pace.

    As for that plan you mentioned, it's a plan from decade ago. Long since ditched.

    walle83

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  walle83 on Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:23 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    walle83 wrote:.....
    True, but at this speed the last sub wont be deliverd untill 2030. The plan was, if i remember correctly, that all 8 submarines would have been comissioned by 2020.

    Later ones will be built and tested faster, same as any ship class. Just look at Yasen pace.

    As for that plan you mentioned, it's a plan from decade ago. Long since ditched.

    Yes its "ditched" becouse of delays over and over again. And what makes u think that things will go faster and faster? If anything production of new naval vessels has slowed down the last 2 years.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:55 am

    walle83 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    walle83 wrote:.....
    True, but at this speed the last sub wont be deliverd untill 2030. The plan was, if i remember correctly, that all 8 submarines would have been comissioned by 2020.

    Later ones will be built and tested faster, same as any ship class. Just look at Yasen pace.

    As for that plan you mentioned, it's a plan from decade ago. Long since ditched.

    Yes its "ditched" becouse of delays over and over again. And what makes u think that things will go faster and faster? If anything production of new naval vessels has slowed down the last 2 years.

    Pfftt.... More of this "Chicken Little" bullshit and the sky is falling... Suspect

    FFS the facts simply don't support your conjecture re the Boreis:

    Dolgorukiy: laid down Nov 1996, commissioned Jan 2013 - 17 years (*)
    Nevsky: laid down Mar 2004, commissioned Dec 2013 - <10 years
    Monomakh: laid down Mar 2006, commissioned Dec 2014 - <8 years
    Kynaz Vladimir: laid down Jul 2012, due to be commissioned Dec 2018 - 6.5 years

    Another 4 laid down between Jul 2014 and Dec 2016...

    (*) much of this delay was due to the cancellation of the R-39M Bark SLBM and the subsequent redesign for the Bulava.

    Now, please explain WTF you are talking about? Its crystal clear that production has only accelerated from very poor beginnings (resulting from Yelstins "meltdown" era). Heck, teh first 3 used hull segments from unfinished Akula IIs so if anything the acceleration is understated by these figures....

    Its too soon to gauge how the Yasen build program is faring, but I'd be surprised it that didn't speed up as well. Keep in mind that a good portion of the RuN SSN/SSGN fleet is currently in for upgrade, so there is a veritable fuck-ton of work ongoing... so i'm sure the Ruskies are really sorry if progress doesn't meet with your approval... oh the horror...


    walle83

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  walle83 on Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:38 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    walle83 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    walle83 wrote:.....
    True, but at this speed the last sub wont be deliverd untill 2030. The plan was, if i remember correctly, that all 8 submarines would have been comissioned by 2020.

    Later ones will be built and tested faster, same as any ship class. Just look at Yasen pace.

    As for that plan you mentioned, it's a plan from decade ago. Long since ditched.

    Yes its "ditched" becouse of delays over and over again. And what makes u think that things will go faster and faster? If anything production of new naval vessels has slowed down the last 2 years.

    Pfftt....  More of this "Chicken Little" bullshit and the sky is falling...  Suspect

    FFS the facts simply don't support your conjecture re the Boreis:

    Dolgorukiy: laid down Nov 1996, commissioned Jan 2013 - 17 years (*)
    Nevsky: laid down Mar 2004, commissioned Dec 2013 - <10 years
    Monomakh: laid down Mar 2006, commissioned Dec 2014 - <8 years
    Kynaz Vladimir: laid down Jul 2012, due to be commissioned Dec 2018 - 6.5 years

    Another 4 laid down between Jul 2014 and Dec 2016...

    (*) much of this delay was due to the cancellation of the R-39M Bark SLBM and the subsequent redesign for the Bulava.

    Now, please explain WTF you are talking about?  Its crystal clear that production has only accelerated from very poor beginnings (resulting from Yelstins "meltdown" era).  Heck, teh first 3 used hull segments from unfinished Akula IIs so if anything the acceleration is understated by these figures....

    Its too soon to gauge how the Yasen build program is faring, but I'd be surprised it that didn't speed up as well.  Keep in mind that a good portion of the RuN SSN/SSGN fleet is currently in for upgrade, so there is a veritable fuck-ton of work ongoing...  so i'm sure the Ruskies are really sorry if progress doesn't meet with your approval... oh the horror...


    Laid down dosent mean a thing u know, Russia has the usual habit to lay down alot of vessels and make big news about it...then the construction is full of dealys and unknown halts in work, usualy followed with a very long trail period.
    Borei has always have a very high priority and yes the are moving along, but they are also eating up alot of the budget for everything else.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:03 pm

    walle83 wrote:.....Laid down dosent mean a thing u know, Russia has the usual habit to lay down alot of vessels and make big news about it...then the construction is full of dealys and unknown halts in work, usualy followed with a very long trail period...

    Every single Borei and Yasen laid down so far has been completed or is being completed, not a single one has been scraped or abandoned. Delays are always reduced with each next vessel and every completed one has performed to specs.

    As for trial period, submarines​ have shortest trial periods of all Russian ships by far.

    walle83 wrote:.....
    Borei has always have a very high priority and yes the are moving along, but they are also eating up alot of the budget for everything else.

    That is because they infinitely more important than everything else combined.

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    project 955 Borey SSBNs

    Post  kumbor on Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:31 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    walle83 wrote:.....Laid down dosent mean a thing u know, Russia has the usual habit to lay down alot of vessels and make big news about it...then the construction is full of dealys and unknown halts in work, usualy followed with a very long trail period...

    Every single Borei and Yasen laid down so far has been completed or is being completed, not a single one has been scraped or abandoned. Delays are always reduced with each next vessel and every completed one has performed to specs.

    As for trial period, submarines​ have shortest trial periods of all Russian ships by far.

    walle83 wrote:.....
    Borei has always have a very high priority and yes the are moving along, but they are also eating up alot of the budget for everything else.

    That is because they infinitely more important than everything else combined.

    Sure, SSBNs and SSNs are by far the highest priority. They combine offensive power with stealth. But, I see that Russia has also significant building plans of big icebreakers. They can prove themselves as a specific sort of capital ships in the future. Strategic value of Sevmorput will grow year by year!
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:41 pm

    Construction is the easy part. Implementation of new technologies and all the systems is the hard part.

    All the ships that were laid down were completed but they lacked the money to complete them with systems.

    It's not the fault of the shipyards but the fault of the designers. Shipyards do their job at normal speed.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:42 am

    Isos wrote:Construction is the easy part. Implementation of new technologies and all the systems is the hard part.

    All the ships that were laid down  were completed but they lacked the money to complete them with systems.

    It's not the fault of the shipyards but the fault of the designers. Shipyards do their job at normal speed.

    What is this "all the ships"? Which ones are you talking about?

    The 11356 and 22350 have been delayed due to lack of MGT powerplants (due to Ukro treachery). The 22350 build run looks to be done as I suspect the RuN wants a follow on class, but isn't going to commit until the MCT issue is 100% fixed (they won't lay down new hulls on a promise from Saturn). They have also had issues with commissioning the long-range variant of the Redut-Polimont SAMs but that is a technical issue, not "lacking money".

    The 20385 has been delayed due to the sanction preventing delivery of its MTU diesels and redesign for Kolomona units (as have the 21631s with Chinese engines). The lead unit is fitting out currently, but I'll agree that 6 years is far too long for a 2500T corvette.

    The Ivan Gren is a victim of changing priorities. No need to spend more money to accelerate its completion, it'll be ready when the yard gets its shit together (no new systems on this relatively simple tank landing ship).

    If you have any example of a launched vessel that is sitting at the dock for years awaiting its equipment for fitout, then pls advise. Otherwise I'm calling BS on yet another inflated pessimistic claim about RuN build programs.

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    Isos

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:06 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:Construction is the easy part. Implementation of new technologies and all the systems is the hard part.

    All the ships that were laid down  were completed but they lacked the money to complete them with systems.

    It's not the fault of the shipyards but the fault of the designers. Shipyards do their job at normal speed.

    What is this "all the ships"?  Which ones are you talking about?

    The 11356 and 22350 have been delayed due to lack of MGT powerplants (due to Ukro treachery). The 22350 build run looks to be done as I suspect the RuN wants a follow on class, but isn't going to commit until the MCT issue is 100% fixed (they won't lay down new hulls on a promise from Saturn).  They have also had issues with commissioning the long-range variant of the Redut-Polimont SAMs but that is a technical issue, not "lacking money".

    The 20385 has been delayed due to the sanction preventing delivery of its MTU diesels and redesign for Kolomona units (as have the 21631s with Chinese engines).  The lead unit is fitting out currently, but I'll agree that 6 years is far too long for a 2500T corvette.

    The Ivan Gren is a victim of changing priorities. No need to spend more money to accelerate its completion, it'll be ready when the yard gets its shit together (no new systems on this relatively simple tank landing ship).

    If you have any example of a launched vessel that is sitting at the dock for years awaiting its equipment for fitout, then pls advise.  Otherwise I'm calling BS on yet another inflated pessimistic claim about RuN build programs.


    I was trying to say that construction of the structure of the ship was never a problem for russia or soviet. The problem were always with the systems or money or now engines which is not the fault of shipyards.

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    Hole

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Hole on Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:26 am

    Because of the engine problems the yards slowed down the production, so they could keep there work force. No lay-offs. So instead of 24/7 they worked 12/5 or even less.

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