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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu May 24, 2018 12:22 am

    Hole wrote:Old "Charlie" class was called SSGN and it had only 8 missiles.

    AlfaT8: was just a suggestion. Combat drones are so "in" today.

    I get it, but honestly, what's stopping Poseidon from being launched vertically from a tweaked Borei?
    Poseidon has a reported diameter of 1.6 and Bulava has a diameter of 2, so this plausible, but pointless, since there are still the START restrictions on SSBNs.
    Best to use another platform.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu May 24, 2018 12:26 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Hole wrote:Old "Charlie" class was called SSGN and it had only 8 missiles.

    AlfaT8: was just a suggestion. Combat drones are so "in" today.

    I get it, but honestly, what's stopping Poseidon from being launched vertically from a tweaked Borei?
    Poseidon has a reported diameter of 1.6 and Bulava has a diameter of 2, so this plausible, but pointless, since there are still the START restrictions on SSBNs.
    Best to use another platform.

    but Poseidon is only one type of drones. They can do more tasks (mines, escorts, "anti torpedo fighters" , scouts, or even UAVs)
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu May 24, 2018 12:52 am

    Hole wrote:Old "Charlie" class was called SSGN and it had only 8 missiles......

    Those days are gone, SSGN today is 30 missiles or more.


    AlfaT8 wrote:......

    I get it, but honestly, what's stopping Poseidon from being launched vertically from a tweaked Borei?
    Poseidon has a reported diameter of 1.6 and Bulava has a diameter of 2...

    Because Poseidon is twice the length of Bulava
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 24, 2018 1:09 am

    So they will have Borei as SSBN and Husky as SSN/SSGN (don't know if those 30 VLS tubes qualify it as full SSGN so lets call stock Husky SSN for now since similarly equipped Yasen is placed in that group too)

    First of all 30?

    Odds are it will use UKSK launchers... this is a new design so there should not be any problem including the current standard missile launcher in their newest SSN design.

    And why would it not count as an SSGN... it could carry another 40 missiles to launch through torpedo tubes if that was needed...

    Let's say that they decide to go with Borei. If they go with cheapest and quickest option and just load 6 cruise missiles per one Bulava tube they will get 96 missiles capacity.

    No, that does not make sense.

    The Oscars kept their existing launchers because their existing launchers are between the inner and outer hull and there was no enough room to fit UKSK launchers without creating "bulges".

    On Borei they should be able to remove the Bulava tubes and replace the section with UKSK launchers. Bulava tubes require access to the tubes to check the missiles and for maintenance.... for the UKSK launchers there is no need to access the missiles so you can seal off the section and pack as many as you want in there...

    Oscars are already pretty old and almost outdated. In ten years they will need new ones.

    Oscars are very capable vessels and will be good for more than the next 10 years...

    Zircon will make them even more impressive...



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    Isos

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:54 pm

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:29 pm

    Russia to build 6 more Borei-As, Cancels Project 955B:
    "After the proposals on building Borei-B nuclear-powered submarines were analyzed, a decision was made to give them up as the construction of such submarines does not meet the cost-efficiency criterion. Instead of them, Borei-A class submarines were included in the final version of the state armament program through 2027," the source said. According to the source, "the construction of the new series of Project 955A submarines will begin at the Sevmash Shipyard after 2023." "In all, six Borei-A class submarines are planned to be built. They will be operational with the Northern and Pacific Fleets. When the series is built, the Navy will operate 14 new nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines, namely 11 Borei-A class and three Borei-class submarines," the source said.
    TASS does not have any official confirmation of this information.
    http://tass.com/defense/1005356  http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/may-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6245-russia-cancels-project-955b-will-build-six-more-project-955a-submarines.html
    The Borei-A is good enough, the $ saved can be invested elsewhere.
    But I wonder if it's true that they can operate outside of Arctic & Okhotsk Sea basions w/o being detected, as been claimed in the Russian media. IMO it's not even necessary as it would extend their time at sea & expend more $.
    Borey going through ice at 36:51:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR2t3iXUB4E


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:19 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add video)
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:45 pm


    Fresh photos of Vladimir Monomakh (top) and Alexander Nevsky (down), we don't get many of them here because Yuri keeps hogging all the glory Very Happy



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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:02 am

    Isos wrote:

    Or husky SSBN so they can unify the design of SSN, SSGN and SSBN with a husky family like they are doing with plateforms like armata for army and su-27 variants for airforce.

    you don't. as Husky is designed by Malakhit design bureau while Borei is product from Rubin.

    Just like Airborne Radar and Aircrafts. As long as there are 2 design bureaus (used to be 3, but Lazurit no longer make any attack boats) You will not likely see "unification" of Platform.

    Odds are Husky will be an attack submarine or like Yasen, carrying cruise missile. but will never be an SSBN. Rubin OKB In other hand will never really make real attack boat like Bars (akula).
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:50 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    you don't.  as Husky is designed by Malakhit design bureau while Borei is product from Rubin.

    Just like Airborne Radar and Aircrafts. As long as there are 2 design bureaus (used to be 3, but Lazurit no longer make any attack boats) You will not likely see "unification" of Platform.

    Odds are Husky will be an attack submarine or like Yasen, carrying cruise missile. but will never be an SSBN.  Rubin OKB In other hand will never really make real attack boat like Bars (akula).

    actually this all concept about Husky to be build modular-wise. Russian navy wants unification as far as possible. I'd bet that regardless which one gets order second one will be subcontracted. For example Maklhit SSN/SSGN and Rubin SSBN
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:45 pm


    Okay we can definitely put discussion about number of missiles​ on Borei-A to bed now, it's 16 SLBMs




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    I have been thinking about Borei-B project: they put it on back burner for now in favor of 6 more Borei-As which is excellent move but at some point Borei-B will come into play.

    What are the odds that they build first several of them in SSGN version (Ohio style) as replacement for Oscar-class SSGN? Or even to do the same with Borei-A?

    It would be damn good, fast and efficient way of updating SSGN fleet if you ask me.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:50 pm

    It seems as the Russians want Husky to be the new universal submarine, with SSN, SSGN and possibly even SSBN variant later on. With plans for SSGN Husky existing at the moment, it makes little sense to work on new SSGN designs in my opinion.

    On the other hand, I've been wondering, how far has the Oscar modernization gone so far? I've read that they'll be capable of launching Zircons. Any information on that?
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:10 pm

    The long time required for the rebuilding of the ‘battlecruiser’ Admiral Nakhimov may suggest a change in function. ..
    Why this has taken over 15 years could be explained in one of two ways. The first is that the fall in the Russian economy (exacerbated by sanctions) has sapped resources away from the maintenance and overhaul budget, with priorities going into bringing new ships into service. The second option is that the delays have been managed to incorporate new generation weaponry, such as the 3M22 Zircon anti-ship missile with twice the range and 50% greater speed than the P-800. https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/a-different-kind-of-bear-a-summary-of-defence-modernisation-in-russia/

    The missile will be incorporated into the Kirov-class battlecruiser Admiral Nakhimov in 2018, and the Pyotr Velikiy in 2022. The ships will have their P-700 Granit anti-ship missiles replaced with 3S-14 vertical launch systems capable of holding P-800 Oniks and Kalibr missiles as well as the Zircon; each battlecruiser will be equipped with 72 such missiles. After the upgrade, the battlecruisers can carry 40–80 anti-ship missiles of different types. Admiral Grigorovich-class frigates will have possibility to carry 8 while the Admiral Gorshkov-class frigates 16 Zircon missiles. The missile may be used also by the planned Lider-class destroyer as well as by other undersea and aerial platforms including the Yasen-class, Husky-class attack submarines and the Tu-160M2, ..PAK DA strategic bombers.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M22_Zircon#Design
    IMO, the Oscars won't get them- it's possible, but not feasible.
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:33 pm

    This source suggests they're getting Kalibr. And since Gorshkovs are able of launching Kalibr, Onyx and Zircon missiles, it looks like all three types fit the same tube. So Oscars should have at least theoretical capability of launching Zircons.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:48 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:This source suggests they're getting Kalibr. And since Gorshkovs are able of launching Kalibr, Onyx and Zircon missiles, it looks like all three types fit the same tube. So Oscars should have at least theoretical capability of launching Zircons.

    No they dont. They all fit UKSK but unlikely in 72 pieces to P-700 launch tubes.  Antey 949 wont be able to use P-800 it they to carry 72 missiles. Pls. note that Kalibr has also supersonic model.


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:07 pm

    This source also omits the Oscars as the likely platform: https://sputniknews.com/military/201707171055619054-russia-zircon-missile-development/

    With current shortage of surface ships, Oscars armed with Kalibrs can attack more sea & land targets.  
    https://sputniknews.com/military/201706071054404989-russian-subs-upgraded-with-kalibr/

    They r noisier than the other subs & require SSN escort if deployed to shadow CSGs. Even if the theoretical capability of launching Zircons was there, it may not be practicable.
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    dino00

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  dino00 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:23 am


    Russian submarine fleet capable of launching missiles armed with hypersonics and nukes will be ready for war by 2024

    A new Russian nuclear-powered submarine fleet, capable of launching ICBMs armed with hypersonic weapons, will be ready for war by 2024, according to a person with firsthand knowledge of a U.S. intelligence report.
    In order to finance eight of the submarines, Moscow cut funding for other military modernization programs, such as the nation's surface vessel fleet, according to the person, who spoke to CNBC on the condition of anonymity.

    The Borei II, also designated Borei-A, is a fourth-generation nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine that has the potential to launch 200 nuclear or hypersonic weapons at one time

    WASHINGTON — A new Russian nuclear-powered submarine fleet, capable of launching intercontinental ballistic missiles outfitted with hypersonic weapons, will be ready for war by 2024, according to a person with firsthand knowledge of a U.S. intelligence report.

    In order to finance eight of the submarines, Moscow cut funding for other military modernization programs, such as the nation's surface vessel fleet, according to the person, who spoke to CNBC on the condition of anonymity.

    The Borei II submarine, also designated Borei-A, is a fourth-generation nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine that is slated to join the Russian Navy's Northern and Pacific Fleets. The U.S. Navy, by comparison, boasts one of the largest submarine fleets in the world, with 14 Ohio-class vessels tasked with the nuclear deterrence mission.

    The Borei II, which is the first class of submarines developed by Russia since the Cold War, can launch 20 Bulava intercontinental ballistic missiles. Each Bulava can carry a bomb yielding 100 to 150 kilotons, which is approximately 10 times more powerful than the Little Boy atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

    What's more, unlike a traditional missile, which carries one warhead, the Bulava missile is capable of carrying up to 10 nuclear and hypersonic weapons on its tip. That means one Borei II submarine could potentially launch 200 hypersonic weapons, a threat the U.S. is currently unable to defend against

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/21/russia-sub-fleet-capable-of-launching-hypersonics-will-be-ready-by-2024.html
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:26 am

    Unammed sources strike again.

    Borei has been made for years and already ready for service, and already floating around carrying hypersonic missiles (Bulava drops faster than mach 10).

    Americans are stupid. Along with people peddling their sources
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:49 am

    Yeh this person with firsthand knowledge should know at least that Borei II has 16 Bulavas.

    And what sources for surface fleet were cut? Naval construction hasn't seen such speed since late 80s.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:54 pm

    Borei SSGN version, pretty please Navy!!! love
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:49 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    And what sources for surface fleet were cut? Naval construction hasn't seen such speed since late 80s.

    CVNs postponed to 2030s Liders too, instead of 11356 you have 22800. It doesnt look like budget increases to me.




    PapaDragon wrote:Borei SSGN version, pretty please Navy!!! love

    if Bulava gets Avangard warheads it should be just fine lol1 lol1 lol1

    hoom

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:00 pm

    Yeh this person with firsthand knowledge should know at least that Borei II has 16 Bulavas.
    Firsthand knowledge of the Wiki page for Borei class Razz
    Literally there is nothing not already widely public in that text & the failure to update the missile count is just laughable fail.

    Probably this is a tie-in to the recent UK propaganda bit about 'Yasen-A' supposedly hanging around Faslane Rolling Eyes & which had a fairly prominent mention of Borei-A for no good reason.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:53 am

    The scary thing is that loyal readers and patriotic americans will believe this shit and think... crap... by 2024 the Russians might have nuclear weapons that can reach US cities... oh... no... now when the next elections come up and one of the candidates says they want to reduce the war budget... how will they react?

    Surely they need to increase the budget to deal with this potential new threat from Russia... america cannot be left vulnerable to Russian nuclear attack... it is just unamerican!

    Borei will never have 20 launch tubes... it is simply not going to happen... don't they understand the concept of "all your eggs in one basket"?

    Of course with belligerent Trump in charge, with the potential for crazy hilary or some replicant that wants to show the democrats are harder on Russia than trump was, then I guess there will be no replacement for the new start treaty and they might have super SSBNs with 30 SLBMs per boat, but I suspect it would be rather more likely they just build more boats and some SLBM barges they can tow around with nuclear icebreakers...

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:09 am

    With Bulava SLBM testing over, they could return D. Donskoi SSBN to the fleet with its 20 tubes; to stay in SALT, they can deactivate/convert 1/2 older Deltas. Icebreakers r needed to help surface ships on the NSR & expeditions to the Antarctic.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Arrow

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Arrow on Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:53 pm

    Borei will never have 20 launch tubes... it is simply not going to happen... don't they understand the concept of "all your eggs in one basket"? wrote:

    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:56 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    It's a mistake. Russia needs a much larger nuclear arsenal

    They are limited to international treaties and they already have the biggesr nuclear arsenal.

    16 launch tubes means they can build more borei so more plateforms so more survivability.

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