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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    GJ Flanker

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GJ Flanker on Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:56 pm

    Every Borei has 16 launch tubes, not 12!

    GarryB wrote:Isn't that to be expected?

    The new START treaty limits both sides to between 1200 and 1500 warheads each... now splitting both of those figures into the three branches of the nuclear triad... land, air and sea then you get 400-500 warheads per branch.

    8 Boreis with 3 with 12 launch tubes each, and 5 with 16 launch tubes carrying a missile able to deliver from 3 to 6 warheads... we are talking about from 3 x 12 = 36 + 5 x 16= 80. So we are talking about 116 missiles in 116 missile tubes.

    With a load of from 3 to 6 warheads per missile we are therefore talking about from 348 warheads to 696 warheads... the latter would be too many. The former would allow several Delta IV subs to remain in service for a while...
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:34 pm

    GJ Flanker wrote:Every Borei has 16 launch tubes, not 12!

    GarryB wrote:Isn't that to be expected?

    The new START treaty limits both sides to between 1200 and 1500 warheads each... now splitting both of those figures into the three branches of the nuclear triad... land, air and sea then you get 400-500 warheads per branch.

    8 Boreis with 3 with 12 launch tubes each, and 5 with 16 launch tubes carrying a missile able to deliver from 3 to 6 warheads... we are talking about from 3 x 12 = 36 + 5 x 16= 80. So we are talking about 116 missiles in 116 missile tubes.

    With a load of from 3 to 6 warheads per missile we are therefore talking about from 348 warheads to 696 warheads... the latter would be too many. The former would allow several Delta IV subs to remain in service for a while...

    Improved one have 20.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:01 pm

    Isos wrote:
    GJ Flanker wrote:Every Borei has 16 launch tubes, not 12!

    GarryB wrote:Isn't that to be expected?

    The new START treaty limits both sides to between 1200 and 1500 warheads each... now splitting both of those figures into the three branches of the nuclear triad... land, air and sea then you get 400-500 warheads per branch.

    8 Boreis with 3 with 12 launch tubes each, and 5 with 16 launch tubes carrying a missile able to deliver from 3 to 6 warheads... we are talking about from 3 x 12 = 36 + 5 x 16= 80. So we are talking about 116 missiles in 116 missile tubes.

    With a load of from 3 to 6 warheads per missile we are therefore talking about from 348 warheads to 696 warheads... the latter would be too many. The former would allow several Delta IV subs to remain in service for a while...

    Improved one have 20.

    Natural result of the ABM systems is to increase the number of rockets and decrease the number of warheads.

    And of course increase the number of decoys : )

    Or just leave one MIRV bus with one warhead and full fuel, and manoeuvrer it like hell during full trajectory.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:16 pm

    Every Borei has 16 launch tubes, not 12!

    That makes my point clearer.

    8 x 16 = 128 tubes

    3 warheads per missile = 384 warheads

    6 warheads per missile = 768 warheads

    With 20 tubes it would be 460 and 920 respectively.

    With the introduction of rail based ICBMs I rather suspect the number of sub based and silo based missiles will decline...

    Natural result of the ABM systems is to increase the number of rockets and decrease the number of warheads.

    Very true, but would require the withdrawal from the new START treaty first...


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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Every Borei has 16 launch tubes, not 12!

    That makes my point clearer.

    8 x 16 = 128 tubes

    3 warheads per missile = 384 warheads

    6 warheads per missile = 768 warheads

    With 20 tubes it would be 460 and 920 respectively.

    With the introduction of rail based ICBMs I rather suspect the number of sub based and silo based missiles will decline...

    Natural result of the ABM systems is to increase the number of rockets and decrease the number of warheads.

    Very true, but would require the withdrawal from the new START treaty first...

    Or they can make submarines to carry kalibr/ nuclear torpedoes.

    That is not strategical missile. : )

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    franco

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  franco on Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:58 pm

    GarryB wrote:Isn't that to be expected?

    The new START treaty limits both sides to between 1200 and 1500 warheads each... now splitting both of those figures into the three branches of the nuclear triad... land, air and sea then you get 400-500 warheads per branch.

    8 Boreis with 3 with 12 launch tubes each, and 5 with 16 launch tubes carrying a missile able to deliver from 3 to 6 warheads... we are talking about from 3 x 12 = 36 + 5 x 16= 80. So we are talking about 116 missiles in 116 missile tubes.

    With a load of from 3 to 6 warheads per missile we are therefore talking about from 348 warheads to 696 warheads... the latter would be too many. The former would allow several Delta IV subs to remain in service for a while...

    In regards to the air element of the Triad, each Tu.95MS and Tu-160 bomber is counted as a single warhead only for START purposes. The Tu-22M3 is not counted as it's range is less then 5,000 kms.  The 955 SSBN also has 16 SLBM along with the 955A version.

    NOTE: actually just read that the first ship of the class only had 12 SLBM but it was 16 starting with the second ship. The number of MIRV's per SLBM would also depend on how powerful a warhead you were looking for, probably six 150 MT versus three - four 550 MT.


    Last edited by franco on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:06 pm

    Or they can make submarines to carry kalibr/ nuclear torpedoes.

    That is not strategical missile. : )

    There is a treaty for these weapons too. Oscar 2 subs carried nuclear P-700 but no more. US could equip it's Ohio with 154 nuclear Tomahawks too.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  George1 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:28 pm

    By 2020, a fleet of eight Borei and Borei-A subs will be able to carry 148 R-30 Bulava missiles with a total of 1,480 guidance blocks, 100-150 kilotons each.

    A Borei-class submarine also has eight 533-mm forward torpedo tubes, nearly 40 torpedoes, missile-torpedoes and torpedo mines. It also carries autonomous sonar countermeasures devices.

    Borei’s sonar system allows for detecting enemy ships at a distance 50 percent farther than that of Virginia-class submarines of the United States Navy. This system is a complex of digital devices providing communications, acquisition and detection of targets and a range of auxiliary functions.

    A Borei-class submarine has a maximum depth of 480 meters. It carries a 90-days food supply for crew. As for its life-support systems, it can operate autonomously for decades. Its crew numbers 107 members.

    In comparison with a Borei and Borei-A submarines, the Borei-M (developed in 2011) submarine has increased stealth capabilities and advanced communications and weapons control systems. There is also a modernization plan for the entire Project 955.




    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201612251048981394-russia-borei-class-submarines/


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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:00 pm

    franco wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Isn't that to be expected?

    The new START treaty limits both sides to between 1200 and 1500 warheads each... now splitting both of those figures into the three branches of the nuclear triad... land, air and sea then you get 400-500 warheads per branch.

    8 Boreis with 3 with 12 launch tubes each, and 5 with 16 launch tubes carrying a missile able to deliver from 3 to 6 warheads... we are talking about from 3 x 12 = 36 + 5 x 16= 80. So we are talking about 116 missiles in 116 missile tubes.

    With a load of from 3 to 6 warheads per missile we are therefore talking about from 348 warheads to 696 warheads... the latter would be too many. The former would allow several Delta IV subs to remain in service for a while...

    In regards to the air element of the Triad, each Tu.95MS and Tu-160 bomber is counted as a single warhead only for START purposes. The Tu-22M3 is not counted as it's range is less then 5,000 kms.  The 955 SSBN also has 16 SLBM along with the 955A version.

    NOTE: actually just read that the first ship of the class only had 12 SLBM but it was 16 starting with the second ship. The number of MIRV's per SLBM would also depend on how powerful a warhead you were looking for, probably six 150 MT versus three - four 550 MT.

    Incorrect information.
    All Boreis (including the first one) carry 16 SLBMs
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    George1

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  George1 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:19 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:

    Incorrect information.
    All Boreis (including the first one) carry 16 SLBMs

    No. Borei carry 16. Borei-A carry 20


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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:31 pm

    George1 wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:

    Incorrect information.
    All Boreis (including the first one) carry 16 SLBMs

    No. Borei carry 16. Borei-A carry 20


    I am not talking about Borei-A.
    I am just correcting the wrong info that the lead ship has 12 rockets only.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:28 am

    Or they can make submarines to carry kalibr/ nuclear torpedoes.

    That is not strategical missile. : )

    The mission of an SSBN is to attack strategic targets... putting Kalibr on it would be like mounting a PKM machine gun on the sail... pointless.

    The number of MIRV's per SLBM would also depend on how powerful a warhead you were looking for, probably six 150 MT versus three - four 550 MT.

    SLBMs are city trashers... there is no reason for 150KT or 550MT.

    The different number of warheads is not commonly different power warheads... it is about how many decoys and penetration aids they carry... fewer warheads means more decoys etc.

    By 2020, a fleet of eight Borei and Borei-A subs will be able to carry 148 R-30 Bulava missiles with a total of 1,480 guidance blocks, 100-150 kilotons each.

    Which suggests 10 warheads per missile and therefore zero air launched nuclear armed missiles or land based ICBMs... which also suggests Russia will likely withdraw from the New START treaty just before it comes into effect... which they are entitled to do BTW.



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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Or they can make submarines to carry kalibr/ nuclear torpedoes.

    That is not strategical missile. : )

    The mission of an SSBN is to attack strategic targets... putting Kalibr on it would be like mounting a PKM machine gun on the sail... pointless.

    The number of MIRV's per SLBM would also depend on how powerful a warhead you were looking for, probably six 150 MT versus three - four 550 MT.

    SLBMs are city trashers... there is no reason for 150KT or 550MT.

    The different number of warheads is not commonly different power warheads... it is about how many decoys and penetration aids they carry... fewer warheads means more decoys etc.

    By 2020, a fleet of eight Borei and Borei-A subs will be able to carry 148 R-30 Bulava missiles with a total of 1,480 guidance blocks, 100-150 kilotons each.

    Which suggests 10 warheads per missile and therefore zero air launched nuclear armed missiles or land based ICBMs... which also suggests Russia will likely withdraw from the New START treaty just before it comes into effect... which they are entitled to do BTW.


    The biggest bomb ever made was 50 MT.

    The current strategic weapons are in the 500 000 ton TNT equivalent range.

    It is easy to find use of the SSBNs if russia cancel the new salt, but what those are for if it stay?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:39 am

    No, the biggest bomb ever actually tested was the Tsar bomb which had a dial-able yield of from about 50 MTs up to about 95-100 MT.

    It was not tested at its max capacity.

    the most important factor of new warheads is accuracy... you don't need a MT range payload if you can hit the target directly, so the SLBMs wont carry a few 500KT or a larger number of 150KT warheads. The only reason to vary the number of warheads is to allow decoys and jammers to be carried too.


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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:42 pm

    GarryB wrote:No, the biggest bomb ever actually tested was the Tsar bomb which had a dial-able yield of from about 50 MTs up to about 95-100 MT.

    It was not tested at its max capacity.

    the most important factor of new warheads is accuracy... you don't need a MT range payload if you can hit the target directly, so the SLBMs wont carry a few 500KT or a larger number of 150KT warheads. The only reason to vary the number of warheads is to allow decoys and jammers to be carried too.

    The Tsar wasn't dial able.
    They used lead instead of uranium as tamper material.
    The change is a factory made, means complet disassembly of the warhead.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:44 am

    It was a variable yield bomb.


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Singular_Transform on Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:It was a variable yield bomb.
    Based on the publicly available informations, the variable yield bomb "tuned" by the amount/pressure of tritium inside the plutonium pit.

    No one knows that the Tsar bomb was designed or not to be used in this mode. However considering that it was an "overkill" weapon I think no one bothered to make multiple yield selection for it.

    The two explosive force (50 Mt test and 100 Mt "war") is due to the different tamper material , the small one using lead, the bigger depleted uranium.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:04 am

    It was purely theoretical... there was no way to deliver such a bomb to any target that would actually require such a weapon.

    It was propaganda science at its best...


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:25 am

    GarryB wrote:It was purely theoretical... there was no way to deliver such a bomb to any target that would actually require such a weapon.

    It was propaganda science at its best...

    Russia "leaked" Super submarine nuke last year , its docs says is
    a 100 megaton nuke.. So is not just " purely theoretical" as you claim.
    Its a real Super nuke ,Russia can build and they themselves revealed they have the capability to totally shut down a very huge coastal zone with a 100 megaton nuke. if you can create a super nuke of 100 megatons the deterrence will be much higher that if it was one of just 1 megaton or 10 the radiation and shock wave higher too. And if the nuke is split in 10 warheads ,targeting 10 different places even more , it will really hurt such attack to any country and shut down 10 cities if explode at the most commercial or strategic place. Either Big business , naval base of submarines or major economic zones.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:57 pm

    MOSCOW, March 17. /TASS/. The fourth Borey-class strategic submarine will be floated out in the second quarter of this year, Vice-President for Warship Construction of Russia’s United Ship-Building Corporation Igor Ponomaryov said on Friday.

    "The Project 955A Borey-class nuclear-powered underwater strategic cruiser Prince Vladimir is planned to be floated out in the second quarter of this year," he said.

    The sub’s delivery to the customer "will take place in accordance with the approved schedule," he said.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/936113


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    George1

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  George1 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:24 pm

    Russia to float out 1st upgraded Borey-class submarine in 2018

    Three submarines of this class have already been delivered to the Russian Navy

    MOSCOW, March 21. /TASS/. The first upgraded Project 955 Borey-class submarine Prince Vladimir will be floated out no later than June and delivered to the Russian Navy in 2018, Navy Deputy Commander-in-Chief Viktor Bursuk said on Tuesday.

    "I believe that no later than June. The delivery, as we spoke with you, will take place in 2018," he said.

    This information was confirmed by United Ship-Building Corporation CEO Alexei Rakhmanov.

    "The first modernized Borey-class lead sub will be delivered to the Navy in 2018. A relevant decision has been made on this score," the company head said.

    The Prince Vladimir was laid down in 2012 and will become the fourth submarine in the series of eight Borey-class underwater cruisers and the first submarine of the improved Borey-A Project.

    Three submarines of this class have already been delivered to the Navy. Each such submarine carries 16 Bulava intercontinental ballistic missiles.

    In 2014, two submarines, the Prince Oleg and the Generalissimus Suvorov, were laid down. In 2015, the submarine Emperor Alexander III was laid down and in 2016 the keel of the submarine Prince Pozharsky was laid.

    A source in the Russian defense industry earlier told TASS that the Prince Vladimir would enter service with the Russian Navy a year later than scheduled, i.e. in 2018. The submarine was earlier expected to become operational in 2017.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/936629


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    Vann7

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:02 pm

    So wikipedia says a single Borei class sub will have more nukes
    than the entire arsenal of Britain.



    Project 955A

    "If these reports are true, technically the fourth ship will be the lead ship of a new Borei II class, though this has not been officially confirmed. Starting from the fourth hull, all submarines of the Borei class will have 20 missile tube each, versus just 16 for the first three boats. If armed with the Bulava (missile) with ten warheads atop each, a single Borei-class SSBN could then carry 200 warheads - as much as the entire nuclear arsenal of the United Kingdom."]


    It says that the latest Borei version Borei2.. will have 20 tubes.
    can anyone help with this numbers , kind of confusing.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:20 pm

    Vann7 wrote:So wikipedia says a single Borei class sub will have more nukes
    than the entire arsenal of Britain.



    Project 955A

    "If these reports are true, technically the fourth ship will be the lead ship of a new Borei II class, though this has not been officially confirmed. Starting from the fourth hull, all submarines of the Borei class will have 20 missile tube each, versus just 16 for the first three boats. If armed with the Bulava (missile) with ten warheads atop each, a single Borei-class SSBN could then carry 200 warheads - as much as the entire nuclear arsenal of the United Kingdom."]


    It says that the latest Borei version Borei2.. will have 20 tubes.
    can anyone help with this numbers , kind of confusing.

    20 tubes, 1 missile per tube, max of 10 warhead per missile -> 200 warheads max (Uk has around 200 warhead in all)
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 07, 2017 2:41 am

    Unless they are not planning on a START agreement to replace the one currently in force I rather doubt there will be an increase of missile tubes to 20 per sub.

    The current agreement limits both sides to between 1200 and 1500 warheads, so having Borei subs with twenty tubes with missiles able to carry up to 10 warheads each means 200 warheads per sub... five subs would carry 1,000 warheads alone without aircraft delivered cruise missiles or ICBMs in silos/trains or trucks.


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:05 am

    Why was there such a procurement gap between the 955A and the original boreis?

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