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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:59 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Eight Borey unit to be ordered called Prince Pozharsky

    http://flotprom.ru/2016/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%8816/

    I hope they increase that number to 12. Eight is barely enough for Northern and Pacific. An extra four will allow them to keep patrols in selected seas like south Atlantic, Indian and Southern Pacific.

    10 is the planned number.
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    franco

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  franco on Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:03 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Eight Borey unit to be ordered called Prince Pozharsky

    http://flotprom.ru/2016/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%8816/

    I hope they increase that number to 12. Eight is barely enough for Northern and Pacific. An extra four will allow them to keep patrols in selected seas like south Atlantic, Indian and Southern Pacific.

    There are also 6 rebuilt, or in the process of being rebuilt, 667BDRM SSBN's which should be good until 2030.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:28 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Eight Borey unit to be ordered called Prince Pozharsky

    http://flotprom.ru/2016/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%8816/

    I hope they increase that number to 12. Eight is barely enough for Northern and Pacific. An extra four will allow them to keep patrols in selected seas like south Atlantic, Indian and Southern Pacific.

    10 is the planned number.

    That number can go up, why not? Subs are ordered one at a time.

    Besides, what follows will probably be upgraded version of Boreis. As long as they keep pace it should be good.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Oct 30, 2016 7:52 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Eight Borey unit to be ordered called Prince Pozharsky

    http://flotprom.ru/2016/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%8816/

    I hope they increase that number to 12. Eight is barely enough for Northern and Pacific. An extra four will allow them to keep patrols in selected seas like south Atlantic, Indian and Southern Pacific.

    10 is the planned number.

    That's much better.
    I don't think Russia needs too many SSBNs, 12 would be nice overall. 10 is fair enough.

    They basically have 2,5 times the sub deterrence of UK or France (with vastly better SLBM tech).
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:27 am

    The thing with the Boreis is that they can carry 16 missiles each capable of carrying say 4 warheads plus jammers and decoys and drones... that means 16 x 4 x X > 500, where X is the number of subs.

    8 subs means 512 warheads which would be OK... 10 subs would be 640 warheads, which means either fewer cruise missiles/bombers or fewer ICBMs.

    Fortunately the New Start Treaty is weak as... it sets a deployed warhead count for a specific day... the day before and the day after you can have as many warheads deployed as you want and still comply with the treaty.

    Or they could just say Bulava carries 2 warheads each... Smile


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    jhelb

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  jhelb on Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:49 pm

    GarryB wrote:The thing with the Boreis is that they can carry 16 missiles each capable of carrying say 4 warheads plus jammers and decoys and drones...

    Jammers are attached to the warhead itself, isn't it?


    Also, what do they need drones for in the Borei? Thanks.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:The thing with the Boreis is that they can carry 16 missiles each capable of carrying say 4 warheads plus jammers and decoys and drones... that means 16 x 4 x X > 500, where X is the number of subs.

    8 subs means 512 warheads which would be OK... 10 subs would be 640 warheads, which means either fewer cruise missiles/bombers or fewer ICBMs.

    Fortunately the New Start Treaty is weak as... it sets a deployed warhead count for a specific day... the day before and the day after you can have as many warheads deployed as you want and still comply with the treaty.

    Or they could just say Bulava carries 2 warheads each... Smile

    Russia walked away from the start Treaty.

    At least no one seems to enforce it anymore
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:20 am

    Jammers are attached to the warhead itself, isn't it?

    Jammers are devices needing power and antennas/emitters... they would be separate from warheads otherwise the enemy could simply fit home on jam seekers to defeat the warheads.

    Also, what do they need drones for in the Borei? Thanks.

    A drone could simply be a place holder... say you want to test a warhead but if you don't put in the 4-6 warheads the missile would normally carry the performance is effected and results will be different.

    Think of it as dummy weapons... place holders... to ensure that if it had the 4-6 warheads it is supposed to have that they separate properly and don't interfere with each other on release.

    You could even use a drone to monitor the warhead with a camera or sensor...

    [quote]Russia walked away from the start Treaty.[/qutoe]

    No.

    They only walked away from the CFE treaty and that was because they were the only ones to sign it and all the NATO countries were bitching about their forces in Georgia being ilegal... just as well they kept them there eh?

    The START I and START II treaties were made null by the New START treaty which is in effect now.

    At least no one seems to enforce it anymore

    There is nothing to enforce. The New START treaty basically demands that both sides have between 1,200 and 1,500 deployed nuclear warheads and x number of nuclear weapon platforms on a specific date... something like 19 December 2019 or something.

    Both sides can have thousands of deployed nuclear warheads on the day before that date or the day after but to comply all they need to do is ensure on that date they have no more than the specified number of warheads and platforms (ie planes, subs, and silos and trucks etc).

    AFAIK there are no verification procedures either...


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  jhelb on Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:07 am

    GarryB wrote:

    You could even use a drone to monitor the warhead with a camera or sensor...

    But how will that help? Lets say you monitor some abnormality with the warhead, what can you do you? The warheads cannot be controlled/guided?

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    George1

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  George1 on Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:21 pm

    Russia will start construction of eighth Borei-class submarine on December 23 — source

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/910145


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:56 pm

    George1 wrote:Russia will start construction of eighth Borei-class submarine on December 23 — source

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/910145


    The Knyaz Pozharsky submarine will be the last of the eight Borei-class submarines and the fifth of the advanced Borei-A-class ones.

    So what do you guys think about this? Seems to me they are pulling out a bit early unless next thing is Borei-B...
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:47 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:Russia will start construction of eighth Borei-class submarine on December 23 — source

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/910145


    The Knyaz Pozharsky submarine will be the last of the eight Borei-class submarines and the fifth of the advanced Borei-A-class ones.

    So what do you guys think about this? Seems to me they are pulling out a bit early unless next thing is Borei-B...

    Perhaps budget reasons are hurting them here?.
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    Project Canada

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Project Canada on Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:32 pm


    Maybe because of the short comings of the Bulava? Perhaps they figured its better to wait until a more stable /reliable replacement for the Bulava is developed before building new class of ssbn
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:45 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:................

    Perhaps budget reasons are hurting them here?.


    I dunno, it would take a lot bigger economic crisis for Russia to stop building SSBN's, they are core component of the Navy. Entire Naval doctrine is designed around them. They will be building something but will it be whole new thing (Husky SSBN variant) or evolution of Borei?



    Project Canada wrote:
    Maybe because of the short comings of the Bulava? Perhaps they figured its better to wait until a more stable /reliable replacement for the Bulava is developed before building new class of ssbn


    If that were the case they would not be laying down new one in December. Besides Bulava problems are being ironed out. And even if they weren't Borei can be modified to carry something else, it's just launch tubes that would need tweaking.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:06 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:................

    Perhaps budget reasons are hurting them here?.


    I dunno, it would take a lot bigger economic crisis for Russia to stop building SSBN's, they are core component of the Navy. Entire Naval doctrine is designed around them. They will be building something but will it be whole new thing (Husky SSBN variant) or evolution of Borei?



    Project Canada wrote:
    Maybe because  of the short comings of the Bulava? Perhaps they figured its better to wait until a more stable /reliable replacement  for the Bulava is developed before building new class of ssbn


    If that were the case they would not be laying down new one in December. Besides Bulava problems are being ironed out. And even if they weren't Borei can be modified to carry something else, it's just launch tubes that would need tweaking.

    Do they even have a next gen submarine ready to go?. I doubt it or maybe they think they can get by with just eight borei's it's ether that or money problems.

    Well we can except the Yasen class subs to be hit next then.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:26 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:Russia will start construction of eighth Borei-class submarine on December 23 — source

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/910145


    The Knyaz Pozharsky submarine will be the last of the eight Borei-class submarines and the fifth of the advanced Borei-A-class ones.

    So what do you guys think about this? Seems to me they are pulling out a bit early unless next thing is Borei-B...

    Makes a lot of sense to me, with all the new developments that were created from the Foundation of Advanced Studies, for a sub to take full advantage of the new developments, it would need to be designed from scratch. I suspect what they'll do is build smaller but more capable subs, which is a pattern that we are witnessing in Ru's surface ships. Take for example KRET's work on photonic computing, if you examine a modern SSBN, a large portion of it's space is dedicated to storing all the electronic sub systems. A modern SSBN with photonic computing subsystems would take up a small fraction of the space that the electronic equivalent would take (can easily be 1/10th the normal space), you could potentially see new subs that are 1/2-1/3 the normal size, but with the same fire power. Some added bonuses would be that those new smaller subs would need smaller propellers and less powerful propulsion systems, making them more silent, and they would also be cheaper as well as being quicker to produce and put in to service (especially if 3D printing plays a larger role).
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:31 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:.............

    Well we can except the Yasen class subs to be hit next then.

    Yasens already reached end of series, Husky is next to be built.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:38 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:.............

    Well we can except the Yasen class subs to be hit next then.

    Yasens already reached end of series, Husky is next to be built.

    Stopping after only eight hulls? they needed at least 12, money is becoming a factor it seems.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:57 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:.............

    Well we can except the Yasen class subs to be hit next then.

    Yasens already reached end of series, Husky is next to be built.

    Stopping after only eight hulls? they needed at least 12, money is becoming a factor it seems.

    Yasen dragged on since the 90's. It would have been 12 but like everything else they wasted a decade back in the golden Yeltsin era. Whole thing was also redesigned midway trough.

    It is supposed to be replaced anyway. Husky is next in line. If money were an issue with subs then they would not be working on Husky class.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:00 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:.............

    Well we can except the Yasen class subs to be hit next then.

    Yasens already reached end of series, Husky is next to be built.

    Stopping after only eight hulls? they needed at least 12, money is becoming a factor it seems.

    Yasen dragged on since the 90's. It would have been 12 but like everything else they wasted a decade back in the golden Yeltsin era.  Whole thing was also redesigned midway trough.

    It is supposed to be replaced anyway. Husky is next in line. If money were an issue with subs then they would not be working on Husky class.

    That was the first hull the other hulls are current day, I see no major reason to stop at 8 unless they REALLY needed the money for the Husky's which will be a very long time before we see one laid down.
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:09 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:.................

    That was the first hull the other hulls are current day, I see no major reason to stop at 8 unless they REALLY needed the money for the Husky's which will be a very long time before we see one laid down.

    I really don't think that they will spend next decade not building any nuke subs whatsoever. If that really is the case then there will definitely be huge noise over it because it would be massive event.

    We need to wait until we hear more news but if they really stop construction altogether there it will be huge, dare I say, scandal. Nuke subs are not frigates.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Austin on Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:26 am

    The sea component of the nuclear triad will be one of the priorities of the new state program of armaments - the Russian military-industrial complex
    02/12/2016 9:30:31
    http://militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=434259

          
    Viña del Mar (Chile). December 2nd. Interfax-AVN - Development of sea-based strategic nuclear forces (SNF) will be one of the main points of the new state armament program (SAP) in the years 2018-2025, "Interfax-AVN" member of the board of the Military-Industrial Commission (VPK) Vladimir Pospelov.

           "By itself, the construction of naval strategic nuclear forces is a top priority and at the same time it organically drawn to the development of the entire fleet categories, types and branches of the Armed Forces, which provide the strategic nuclear forces." - V.Pospelov said.

           He said that we are talking about all the components of the Russian nuclear triad.

           "This also applies to ground strategic nuclear forces, and aviation This orbital grouping, and bringing combat control teams, and many other things that, ultimately, a single system comprehensively solve the problem." - V.Pospelov said, who heads the Council MIC board on shipbuilding.

           Proceeding from this logic, he said V.Pospelov, takes into account various proposals for specific projects of ships, supply vessels, aircraft, other military equipment, which is created in the interest of the development of the naval component of the strategic nuclear forces.

           He stressed that the Russian army entered the twenty-first century with the priorities of national security, that formed a little earlier.

           "It is definitely possible to say that today, first of all it is the strategic nuclear forces provide the global interests of Russia and several other countries of the world. US, UK, France, Germany and some other countries This is - an absolute element of stability on a global scale," - he said in .Pospelov.

           According to him, since the emergence of the nuclear triad development of its sea, air and land component is a priority in the "vёrstkah" SAP. "It was yesterday, is today, and I am sure, will continue in the foreseeable future is the priority that is guaranteed to ensure the protection of our national interests in any of the scenarios." - V.Pospelov said.

           Noting the effectiveness and powerful strategic nuclear forces, which are an essential element of strategic stability, the agency drew attention to the need to improve information support for automated control systems of marine component of the nuclear triad of state. ".. This applies, in particular, to ensure the stability of the combat groups of marine strategic nuclear forces This is the maritime component of general purpose forces and there are a number of other issues that will be emphasized in the new LG" - V.Pospelov said.

           Responding to questions about the financial security of the SAP - 2018-2025, he noted that participated in the formation of three state programs arms.

           "Financial assets never is never too much: no matter how much to offer - they always will learn Certain limitations are present today in our country, and in many other countries." - V.Pospelov said.

           As an example, he cited a number of heads of the Navy Latin American region, which spoke at the International Naval Exhibition "EKSPONAVAL 2016" in Chile.

           "They have a dilemma: they are the commanders of the Navy, we would like one, and countries leadership says it we can, and that - no starts selection options for the development of national Navy The main task here - to competently distribute those funds.. that they can give the state to most effectively achieve the goals set by the leadership of the country ", - said V.Pospelov.

           He stressed that the development of the Russian Navy for many years now goes to the "eye" in the vastness of the oceans, but today it is particularly relevant in view of the current geopolitical situation.

           "Not every country having serious navy, capable of entering the expanses of the oceans We objectively." Imprisoned "at the matter from the time of Peter the First, and always try to match - and the shipbuilding industry, and those federal executive bodies that are involved in . these tasks management of the Ministry of Defence, the leadership of the Military-industrial Commission clearly see and understand the challenges that exist today, and properly respond to them, "- said V.Pospelov.

           New LG spokesman said, takes into account all these factors. 


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    George1

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:10 am

    Russian Navy to Stop Production of Borei-Class Nuclear Subs - Deputy Commander

    SEVERODVINSK (Russia) (Sputnik) – The Russian Sevmash shipbuilder commenced on Friday production of the eighth 955A Borei-class submarine Knyaz Pozharsky, which will be the last one in the Project 955 series.

    Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201612231048913952-navy-russia-production/


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:38 am

    Isn't that to be expected?

    The new START treaty limits both sides to between 1200 and 1500 warheads each... now splitting both of those figures into the three branches of the nuclear triad... land, air and sea then you get 400-500 warheads per branch.

    8 Boreis with 3 with 12 launch tubes each, and 5 with 16 launch tubes carrying a missile able to deliver from 3 to 6 warheads... we are talking about from 3 x 12 = 36 + 5 x 16= 80. So we are talking about 116 missiles in 116 missile tubes.

    With a load of from 3 to 6 warheads per missile we are therefore talking about from 348 warheads to 696 warheads... the latter would be too many. The former would allow several Delta IV subs to remain in service for a while...


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  George1 on Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:27 am







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