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    Project 955: Borei class SSBN

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    TR1
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:27 pm

    TR1 wrote:Just wasn't any money before. That's why more than half of the attack fleet is laid up or being modernized- they never got their mid-life overhauls in the 90s and 2000s, so now they are getting them along with modernization. At least the one they can afford it with- the expensive 945s might not be worked on after all.

    The ballistic missile submarines have been a priority and so have been overhauled and up-armed with Sineva since mid 2000s with regularity.

    LOL @ this being downvoted.

    No really, this place is great. The amount of reality defying Russia-strong ass-hurt is astronomical.

    I can just picture some butthurt non-Russian fuming that I dare insinuate Russia can't afford to keep even half of its attack sub fleet operational right now.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Zivo on Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:44 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Just wasn't any money before. That's why more than half of the attack fleet is laid up or being modernized- they never got their mid-life overhauls in the 90s and 2000s, so now they are getting them along with modernization. At least the one they can afford it with- the expensive 945s might not be worked on after all.

    The ballistic missile submarines have been a priority and so have been overhauled and up-armed with Sineva since mid 2000s with regularity.

    LOL @ this being downvoted.

    No really, this place is great. The amount of reality defying Russia-strong ass-hurt is astronomical.

    I can just picture some butthurt non-Russian fuming that I dare insinuate Russia can't afford to keep even half of its attack sub fleet operational right now.

    You've made some enemies here.

    It appears your non-stronk, realistic assessments will not go unpunished.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:32 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Just wasn't any money before. That's why more than half of the attack fleet is laid up or being modernized- they never got their mid-life overhauls in the 90s and 2000s, so now they are getting them along with modernization. At least the one they can afford it with- the expensive 945s might not be worked on after all.

    The ballistic missile submarines have been a priority and so have been overhauled and up-armed with Sineva since mid 2000s with regularity.

    LOL @ this being downvoted.

    No really, this place is great. The amount of reality defying Russia-strong ass-hurt is astronomical.

    I can just picture some butthurt non-Russian fuming that I dare insinuate Russia can't afford to keep even half of its attack sub fleet operational right now.

    Well, if it will make you feel better, I gave you a + because you provided the info I was looking for.

    Makes sense that during questionable periods, they would rely more on the ssbm subs rather than attack.

    Besides Yasin, are there plans for any other nuclear subs, cheaper too? Could they not look at kinda crossmixing generational technologies like they do for aircrafts? Or seek to co develop one with China for the things that are considered problematic and costly for Russia? Or India (Since india is interested in Russian nuclear attack subs)?

    TR1
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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:41 am

    Not any firm plans as far as I am aware.

    With upcoming sequester the question is irrelevant for several years at best IMO.

    I'm not sure how much money would be saved by projecting and building a whole series of new nuclear boats, even if it is "small and cheaper" (by how much?) than 885.

    I'd rather just see a decent 885M series + suppliment with whatever older boats are salvageable past 2020 and an actually decent new series of diesel boats after the recent Lada fiasco.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:14 pm

    Its not "realistic", it's downright idiotic to belive that a simple overhaul without modernisation would take more time than building a medium sized warship from scratch, especially duribg an intensive period of funding fleetwide modernisation. Such a thing is likely for amur or the 90s period but sevmash is far too active for such a retardedly slow rate of progress today.
    However if something like that is remotely true the USC managers dont deserve to live.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  rambo54 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:05 pm

    not only the K-329 Severodvinsk but also the Borey class show different length on satellite pictures than specified. Try to measure these boats in Severodvinsk or Severomorsk or Zapadnaya Litsa in google earth. These boats are about 158m and not 170m!
    Any Ideas?


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  TR1 on Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:12 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Its not "realistic", it's downright idiotic to belive that a simple overhaul without modernisation would take more time than building a medium sized warship from scratch, especially duribg an intensive period of funding fleetwide modernisation. Such a thing is likely for amur or the 90s period but sevmash is far too active for such a retardedly slow rate of progress today.
    However if something like that is remotely true the USC managers dont deserve to live.

    I am sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about specifically.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:48 am

    rambo54 wrote:not only the K-329 Severodvinsk but also the Borey class show different length on satellite pictures than specified. Try to measure these boats in Severodvinsk or Severomorsk or Zapadnaya Litsa in google earth. These boats are about 158m and not 170m!
    Any Ideas?

    I wonder why.. However I suspected that the satellite wasn't really on top of the sub.. Thus accidentally made "angled" image that distort measurement.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:45 am

    TR1 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Its not "realistic", it's downright idiotic to belive that a simple overhaul without modernisation would take more time than building a medium sized warship from scratch, especially duribg an intensive period of funding fleetwide modernisation. Such a thing is likely for amur or the 90s period but sevmash is far too active for such a retardedly slow rate of progress today.
    However if something like that is remotely true the USC managers dont deserve to live.

    I am sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about specifically.
    Im saying that your claims that 949A and 954 would take a minimum of 10 years just to simply overhaul isn't in touch with reality.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  TR1 on Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:14 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Its not "realistic", it's downright idiotic to belive that a simple overhaul without modernisation would take more time than building a medium sized warship from scratch, especially duribg an intensive period of funding fleetwide modernisation. Such a thing is likely for amur or the 90s period but sevmash is far too active for such a retardedly slow rate of progress today.
    However if something like that is remotely true the USC managers dont deserve to live.

    I am sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about specifically.
    Im saying that your claims that 949A and 954 would take a minimum of 10 years just to simply overhaul  isn't in touch with reality.

    I never made that claim.

    What are you talking about?

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  rambo54 on Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:38 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    rambo54 wrote:not only the K-329 Severodvinsk but also the Borey class show different length on satellite pictures than specified. Try to measure these boats in Severodvinsk or Severomorsk or Zapadnaya Litsa in google earth. These boats are about 158m and not 170m!
    Any Ideas?

    I wonder why.. However I suspected that the satellite wasn't really on top of the sub.. Thus accidentally made "angled" image that distort measurement.

    I don't think so. For example use the History layer in Severodvinsk and measure other ships next to the Boreys. You will see that they match more or less exactly their specifications. You only see significant mismatches for Borey and K-329 Severodvinsk!

    see what I mean:





    Last edited by rambo54 on Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:53 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:18 am

    TR1 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Its not "realistic", it's downright idiotic to belive that a simple overhaul without modernisation would take more time than building a medium sized warship from scratch, especially duribg an intensive period of funding fleetwide modernisation. Such a thing is likely for amur or the 90s period but sevmash is far too active for such a retardedly slow rate of progress today.
    However if something like that is remotely true the USC managers dont deserve to live.

    I am sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about specifically.
    Im saying that your claims that 949A and 954 would take a minimum of 10 years just to simply overhaul  isn't in touch with reality.

    I never made that claim.

    What are you talking about?

    -954:
    Karp has been inactive since 1998. Needs years of work @ Zvezdochka to get back to the fleet at the very least.

    -949A:
    Irkutsk has been in reserve since 1998. Repairs since 2008, that flopped, and is now being modernized in Zvezda till 2017. Assuming they meet the deadline.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  TR1 on Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:41 am

    Yes?

    Where did I claim repairs need to take 10 years?

    I don't see any connection between my post and your claim.

    What I posted was the reality of what the submarines have been up to. Obviously if they were competently handled/funded it does not take 10 years to work on them.

    And what does Sevmash even have to do with it?

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:39 pm

    Obviously if they were competently handled/funded it does not take 10 years to work on them.

    That is dishonest... you are assuming they were actually working on them for 10 years... they might have been waiting for plans or designs, or money or parts, or they might have been focussed on more important work and neglected it because it was a low priority.



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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  TR1 on Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Obviously if they were competently handled/funded it does not take 10 years to work on them.

    That is dishonest... you are assuming they were actually working on them for 10 years... they might have been waiting for plans or designs, or money or parts, or they might have been focussed on more important work and neglected it because it was a low priority.


    How is this dishonest?

    I clearly said if FUNDED and if competently handled.

    That is what happened. Either funding was not there, or the shipyard negotiated a contract that was on poor terms or outside of its capacity at the time to do.


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:33 am

    rambo54 wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:
    rambo54 wrote:not only the K-329 Severodvinsk but also the Borey class show different length on satellite pictures than specified. Try to measure these boats in Severodvinsk or Severomorsk or Zapadnaya Litsa in google earth. These boats are about 158m and not 170m!
    Any Ideas?

    I wonder why.. However I suspected that the satellite wasn't really on top of the sub.. Thus accidentally made "angled" image that distort measurement.

    I don't think so. For example use the History layer in Severodvinsk and measure other ships next to the Boreys. You will see that they match more or less exactly their specifications. You only see significant mismatches for Borey and K-329 Severodvinsk!

    see what I mean:

    It is normal for the real specifications of weapon systems, including their dimensions, to be different from their published values. That is a rule, actually.

    Take what is on the internet for example; very very few of the "non-obvious" specification details are correct, and I am being very very generous with my description of the situation.

    For more than a decade the published submerged displacement of the proekt 941 was being listed as 24000 tonnes to 27000 tonnes, including in all of the Jane's publications, while from the beginning a simple calculation would show that it was close to 50000 tonnes.

    I can recall that from the very beginning my calculations for Borej showed figures very similar to yours, and I didn't use satellite images; what I think I did was to add the length of a missile compartment to the length of a proekt 971.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:24 am

    rambo54 wrote:
    I don't think so. For example use the History layer in Severodvinsk and measure other ships next to the Boreys. You will see that they match more or less exactly their specifications. You only see significant mismatches for Borey and K-329 Severodvinsk!


    Yes.. i have checked it now... So basically Wikipedia and basically whoever quotes that 170 m figure is inaccurate.

    and this is better.

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-370.html

    This one is for Graney
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-372.html

    You can see in the Graney specs there are hmm three length figures from 119 to 139m

    Anyway can i ask where did you find the Graney ? coordinates and time stamp ?


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  rambo54 on Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:52 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    rambo54 wrote:
    I don't think so. For example use the History layer in Severodvinsk and measure other ships next to the Boreys. You will see that they match more or less exactly their specifications. You only see significant mismatches for Borey and K-329 Severodvinsk!


    Yes.. i have checked it now... So basically Wikipedia and basically whoever quotes that 170 m figure is inaccurate.

    and this is better.

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-370.html

    This one is for Graney
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-372.html

    You can see in the Graney specs there are hmm three length figures from 119 to 139m

    Anyway can i ask where did you find the Graney ? coordinates and time stamp ?


    Severodvinsk:
    64.578015° 39.814701° - 23 June 2010
    64.575185° 39.800798° - 30 July 2010
    64.575245° 39.800658° - 13 Aug 2011 + 21 Aug 2011
    64.575394° 39.800599° - 28 Aug 2012
    64.578223° 39.804305° - 9 May 2013
    64.575394° 39.800599° - 18 June 2013
    64.575984° 39.805111° - 10 Sept 2014

    Severomorsk
    69.095267° 33.414915° - 20 July 2014

    Have Fun


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  jhelb on Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:09 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:It is normal for the real specifications of weapon systems, including their dimensions, to be different from their published values. That is a rule, actually.

    Morpheus, in light of your comment I wanted to know that is it true that most Russian/Western torpedoes at least till the 50s had to run straight in the absence of guidance or homing?

    This also increase the chances of "fratricide" right? I read somewhere that during WW2 a number of Nazi U-Boats fell victim to their own torpedoes that they had fired.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:51 am

    jhelb wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:It is normal for the real specifications of weapon systems, including their dimensions, to be different from their published values. That is a rule, actually.

    Morpheus, in light of your comment I wanted to know that is it true that most Russian/Western torpedoes at least till the 50s had to run straight  in the absence of guidance or homing?

    This also increase the chances of "fratricide" right? I read somewhere that during WW2 a number of Nazi U-Boats fell victim to their own torpedoes that they had fired.

    I assume when a guided/homing torpedo loses its target, one of several options is for it to be programmed to run directly to the targets last "projected" position.

    I have not seen any reliable data regarding torpedoes hitting the vessels that have fired them. Do you have any reliable information regarding these kind of situations?

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:11 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    Second Borei-class nuclear sub goes into service with Russian Navy — source

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:35 pm

    Even straight running torpedoes don't actually run straight... US torpedo tubes are in the middle of the vessel angled slightly outwards with the sonar array taking up the entire nose, which means even firing torpedoes at a target directly in front of a US sub the torpedo would have to travel in a curve to hit it.

    The Stingray was a US sub lost with all hands with very little information as to what happened... the leading theory was that a torpedo went live... standard procedure is to jettison such a weapon as it is unsafe and it is believed the torpedo ran on a great curve and came around and hit and sunk the sub.

    The sonar sensor on a torpedo is not as sensitive as the sensor in a sub so often even guided torpedoes would run for a period before attempting to detect the target and home in on it... running on a wide curve it is all together possible a homing torpedo could turn 180 degrees and get a lock on the launch vessel.


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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:07 pm

    Viktor wrote:Nice  thumbsup

    Second Borei-class nuclear sub goes into service with Russian Navy — source

    Interestingly, TASS are also quoting the length of a Borei as 170m. TASS journos using Wikipedia?.... pls say it isn't so....

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:37 pm

    Unconfirmed information ,According to wikipedia. English version. 2 new Borei Submarine have been added in the total plan.. So that is 8 + 2 = 10 Borei Submarines .

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borei-class_submarine#cite_note-paritet1-53

    http://www.militaryparitet.com/teletype/data/ic_teletype/13815/


    Will be nice if turn to be correct the sources .  

    At the moment apparently Russia have 12 nuclear ballistic submarines in service and US navy 18 ohio class.

    nice chart of Russian navy entire submarine fleet in active submarines.. including
    the 2 borei and 1 yasen in service. looking good..

    http://defendingrussia.ru/upload/images/ckeditor/5501a7a9bd289.jpg

    With 10 Borei submarines..and 5 Yasen class for 2020 to 2025.. and diesel electric subs..  and other overhauls here and there.. it will be a very decent projection of submarine power. This is not mentioning of course the surface warship fleet.

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    Re: Project 955: Borei class SSBN

    Post  jhelb on Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:45 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    I have not seen any reliable data regarding torpedoes hitting the vessels that have fired them. Do you have any reliable information regarding these kind of situations?

    There were a number of instances of US and German torpedoes hitting the submarine that fired them. Of course the US & Germany did not disclose the full information.

    Be that as it may be here is a list of "circular runs" of torpedos

    http://www.subsowespac.org/the-patrol-zone/circular-torpedo-runs.shtml


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