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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

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    Post  SOC on Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:55 am

    Found the data. The 400 km test missile reached an altitude of 70 km, so it was still technically endoatmospheric as its flight altitude remained below both the 100 km Karman Line and the mesosphere-thermosphere boundary at 85 km (the FAI uses the Karman Line, the US uses the other boundary when determining a difference between aeronautics and astronautics, for what it's worth). Unmodified in-service rounds had their altitudes limited to 38 km, due to the control issues that they identified and had to solve before the 400 km test. Boris Bunkin claims that they "regained control" of the missile on the downward leg at 20 km altitude. He's also the source for the range and altitude figures from the test, as well as the controllability issue that required a solution.
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    Post  SOC on Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:58 am

    In related news, Google Earth now shows the two Elektrostal-area S-400 batteries around Moscow. The locations can be ascertained from the SAM Site Overview file, after I upload an update tomorrow.
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    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:15 pm

    SOC , to keep this straight what has a test done some time in late 80's or 90 if i am not wrong its the former , for all we know the 40N6 has little to do with the 400 km missile they tested except they both seem to have "400" in common.

    We might be looking at an entirely new missile here in 40N6
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    Post  SOC on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:54 am

    Austin wrote:SOC , to keep this straight what has a test done some time in late 80's or 90 if i am not wrong its the former , for all we know the 40N6 has little to do with the 400 km missile they tested except they both seem to have "400" in common.

    We might be looking at an entirely new missile here in 40N6

    It could very well be a new missile, and it probably is. The 400km tests were done beginning in 1985 and were conducted specifically under the framework of the S-400 program (the initial version, the S-200 replacement). Initial trials involved a 48N6 modified to get out to 400km and a modified 30N6 radarcapable of guiding the weapon at that range. Bunkin stated that a different missile would be used eventually, but that "current" trials (as in those taking place around 2001 when he was interviewed) involved that modified missile. The reason this matters is because it could imply that the S-400 already has a 400km range capability. If so, why the new 40N6 missile? Because a new weapon can be designed specifically for the ranges and flight regimes encountered. In that light, 40N6 delays might not be related to technical issues, but funding issues: another new 400km missile might not have been such a high priority if the system already had some capability to that range.
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    Post  Viktor on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:37 am

    Is it possible that 40N6 missile will be more attitude oriented and as such need to have different maneuverability at attitude as control surfaces wont due so a redesign had to be done to perhaps existing 48N6 and if so is it more logical to have multistage missile?
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:49 am

    Perhaps the new missile has ARH and the improved terminal accuracy that provides (because it is not sending a radar signal 800km to the target) means a reduced warhead size and newer electronics...?

    Is it possible that 40N6 missile will be more attitude oriented and as such need to have different maneuverability at attitude as control surfaces wont due so a redesign had to be done to perhaps existing 48N6 and if so is it more logical to have multistage missile?

    Changing to a multi stage missile is a significant step and requires a significant change in design.

    Generally the problem with multistage missiles is length but we are talking about missiles that are already quite long.

    Multi stages also has the advantage of being able to choose what booster section you fit to determine or improve performance. New propellent in a booster can further increase performance requiring merely the replacement of the booster section, with the added advantage that booster sections can be made fatter than the actual missile to contain even more fuel... the extra drag lost when the booster falls away.

    Of course one of the features of the 400km range missile was a surprise capability against force multipliers like JSTARS and AWACS and tanker aircraft... I guess using two stages and actually giving it a 600km range with active radar homing and of course a much smaller interception stage missile would be a benefit.

    I think work on the S-500 might be useful in deciding....
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    Post  SOC on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:49 am

    GarryB wrote:Perhaps the new missile has ARH and the improved terminal accuracy that provides (because it is not sending a radar signal 800km to the target) means a reduced warhead size and newer electronics...?

    Possible. Also possible that it retains SAGG, which is believed to more than accurate enough as you're deriving guidance commands from two different perspectives of the target. The warhead size of the 5V55 and 48N6 rounds has less to do with anything relating to accuracy and more to do with providing a kill radius large enough to ensure that your target is going to die regardless of how maneuverable it is at endgame. The 5V55 and 48N6 (moreso the latter) may be very long range, but they're still intended to shoot at everything, including non-cooperative targets like fighters and not just big fat cooperative targets like ISR aircraft or IFR platforms.

    Bunkin stated that they redesigned the electronics required to make the guidance mode work at 400km to fit within the basic volume of space used by the 30N6. Basically they had to modify the system for the much longer range trials, and once it worked they went about reworking everything to fit within the space they had. Makes you wonder if one of the reasons for the new engagement radar chassis for the S-400 was increased weight of the electronics cabin.
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    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:24 am

    SOC wrote:The reason this matters is because it could imply that the S-400 already has a 400km range capability. If so, why the new 40N6 missile?

    While the original test in mid 80's might have been a proof of concept test to check a missile and radar ability to guide to its target at long ranges , the modified missile of S-400 series which is 48N6 might indeed be a ~ 400 km range missile and the export variant a 250 km range.

    The air chief had recently stated that the current sam has a range of more than 250 km


    Because a new weapon can be designed specifically for the ranges and flight regimes encountered. In that light, 40N6 delays might not be related to technical issues, but funding issues: another new 400km missile might not have been such a high priority if the system already had some capability to that range.

    I believe 40N6 is a new missile with better energy to deal with 3500 Km class IRBM and preserving what was already learnt via 48N6 and adding in new qualities.

    The fact that 40N6 is under state test and 2011 Almaz-Antey report states that 15 test has been done so far and the Air Chief mentioned that the system will be ready for induction by end of this year which is around 3-4 years of test would tell you its a new system that needs far greater test to proof test it against wide variety of targets including hypersonic one.

    While the range 400 km for 40N6 might be very appealing to most observers i dont think those exoctic ranges are really a challange considering it was first proof tested 25 years back.

    The challenge for 40N6 missile and its radar will be to deal with IRBM type targets and hypersonic targets at higher altitude ~ 150 km and longer ranges.

    Ofcourse what i said above is what i can make out of the situation making use of data points from your post and Almaz-Antey report.
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    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:31 am

    Yes I wont be surprised if 40N6 has SAGG guidance with ARH/SARH mode , indeed such a seeker was already displayed before , well ARH/SAGG is better way to put as the latter is an improved upon SARH.

    I think most analyst in absense of hard data would folly on 40N6 capabilities by looking at 48N6 and extrapolate it to the former.

    That would probably be like looking at my Girlfriend and her qualities and then making an assumption on how she would end up at being my wife , for all you know my Girlfriend and Wife might be two different persons serving two different roles.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:12 am

    I would expect that the factory making the missiles has been upgraded several times since it was making missiles in 1984, and that new electronics and new materials would make even the same missile design better performing.

    Just look at the R-73 and R-77 made in the mid 1980s and the ones made now... there is a world of difference because of improvements in materials and electronics.
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    Post  JPJ on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:47 pm

    Garry
    There are many variants of R 77? Because I know only thwo. The "clasic" R 77 and the new RVV AE PD. About the others version like R 77M or another there are only a few references

    Thanks
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:35 pm

    The classic R-77 was the domestic model that was likely bought in tiny numbers as the only Russian aircraft able to operate them for the 1990s was the late model Mig-29S.

    The RVV-AE was the export model sold in significant numbers to both China and to India and other air forces operating Flankers and upgraded Fulcrums.

    The RVV-SD is an export oriented full digital upgrade of both weapons with new materials, new rocket motor, new electronics. Its range is greatly improved and its guidance is likely improved as well.

    The RVV-MD is the equivalent upgrade of the R-73 which has been in operational Russian service and has received several upgrades.

    The domestic missile equivalent of the RVV-SD and RVV-MD will likely be slightly different to minimise the effect of compromised weapons.

    In addition there are believed to be R-77M in development with an enlarged and more powerful motor, and other variants including ramjet powered models, and models with reduced fin sizes to reduce drag .
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    Post  medo on Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:51 pm

    SOC wrote:
    Austin wrote:SOC , to keep this straight what has a test done some time in late 80's or 90 if i am not wrong its the former , for all we know the 40N6 has little to do with the 400 km missile they tested except they both seem to have "400" in common.

    We might be looking at an entirely new missile here in 40N6

    It could very well be a new missile, and it probably is. The 400km tests were done beginning in 1985 and were conducted specifically under the framework of the S-400 program (the initial version, the S-200 replacement). Initial trials involved a 48N6 modified to get out to 400km and a modified 30N6 radarcapable of guiding the weapon at that range. Bunkin stated that a different missile would be used eventually, but that "current" trials (as in those taking place around 2001 when he was interviewed) involved that modified missile. The reason this matters is because it could imply that the S-400 already has a 400km range capability. If so, why the new 40N6 missile? Because a new weapon can be designed specifically for the ranges and flight regimes encountered. In that light, 40N6 delays might not be related to technical issues, but funding issues: another new 400km missile might not have been such a high priority if the system already had some capability to that range.


    I also read somewhere about 48N6 to reach 400 km range, but I think the point of new 40N6 missile could be in altitude, which it could reach. I think 48N6 is limited around 30 km altitude, while 40N6 could maybe reach 200 km altitude, what could give it clear THAAD anti-ballistic missiles capabilities.
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    Post  SOC on Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:42 pm

    medo wrote:I also read somewhere about 48N6 to reach 400 km range, but I think the point of new 40N6 missile could be in altitude, which it could reach. I think 48N6 is limited around 30 km altitude, while 40N6 could maybe reach 200 km altitude, what could give it clear THAAD anti-ballistic missiles capabilities.

    Basic rounds are limited to a 38 km altitude (that's their maximum altitude during midcourse, not their engagement altitude). The test missiles used in the 400 km trials were capable of 70 km.
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    Post  Arrow on Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:22 pm

    Some sources said that the max velocity of 40N6 is 4 km/s Shocked
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    Post  SOC on Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:38 am

    SAM Site Overview KML file is now updated:

    http://geimint.blogspot.com/2008/06/worldwide-sam-site-overview.html

    Two S-400 sites are now visible near Moscow and are marked accordingly.

    Haven't yet updated the S-300PM range rings to reflect the 200 km modification, that'll be in the next update.
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:13 am

    Would be nice to get confirmation that all of the upgraded PM units actually received the longer ranged missile.
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    Post  Arrow on Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:25 am

    3 S-400 divisions to enter service in 2012 Very Happy

    S-300PM range rings to reflect the 200 km modification

    PM will use new 48N6E2 missile ?
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    Post  SOC on Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:10 am

    Arrow wrote:3 S-400 divisions to enter service in 2012 Very Happy

    S-300PM range rings to reflect the 200 km modification

    PM will use new 48N6E2 missile ?

    If they've gotten the Favorit upgrade, then they should be capable of using the 48N6D (48N6E2 is the export equivalent). As such their max engagement range raises from 150 to 200 km.

    Now, what I want to know is: did they give the system a sort of modified-Favorit upgrade? The 48N6DM is in production for the S-400, so have they decided to just go with this one for the S-300PM upgrade? That'd boost engagement range further to 250 km. They've stated that the upgrade makes the systems basically into Favorits, but I wonder if they didn't go the extra bit to take advantage of the newer missile, especially since I've read somewhere that the S-300PMU-1/2 and therefore logically the shorter-range 48N6 missiles aren't in production anymore.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:21 am

    The new Talwar type vessels they are building for the Russian Navy will have vertical launch Shtil, and I think that is the trend, where there is a new version that it is used instead of older models.

    If, as you say, they are already making 250km range missiles, I would think there is little logic in still making older missiles that with upgrades only reach 200km.

    ...hehehehehehe... I said ONLY 200km... like that is a poor performance parameter... Rolling Eyes

    I rather suspect that while a range of missile options makes a system attractive to a customer, in terms of production I would think that making a lot of slightly different missiles with very similar performance specs is a waste of effort...
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    Post  SOC on Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:11 am

    The range of missile options isn't really attractive to a new customer, but if you already operated older S-300PS or S-300PMU systems, the S-300PMU-1/2 being backwards compatible with the older 5V55 series missiles was a good selling point, particularly as the system's logic would expend the older weapons if circumstances (lack of EA, cooperative target, etc) didn't require a newer 48N6.

    Any idea if they plan to upgrade the rest of the S-300PMs as well, or did they only target the Moscow-area batteries?
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    Post  Russian Patriot on Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:55 pm

    Russia Seals S-400 Missile Supply Deal

    Moscow-based missile manufacturer Avangard has signed a contract to supply Russia's defense ministry with missiles for its new S-400 air defense systems, the mininstry said on Tuesday.

    The value of the three-year deal was not disclosed.

    Avangard will be the sole supplier of missiles for the S-400 system, the ministry said. The types of missiles in question were not disclosed but previous descriptions of S-400 have included the designations 9M96 and 9M96E2 and the long-range 40N6E.

    The Russian military has previously said the S-400 system would not be exported.

    The S-400 Triumph, which succeeds the Soviet-era S-300, is a medium- to long-range surface-to-air missile system that can effectively engage any aerial target, including aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles, and cruise and ballistic missiles at up to 400 kilometers and an altitude of up to 30 kilometers.

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120320/172278621.html
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    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:11 am

    http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201203291835-hg09.htm

    Some great footage of S-300 training with night shots.
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    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:05 pm

    S-400 Triumph air defense missile systems will be deployed in Russia’s Far East before the end of the year, Far East Air Force and Air Defense Force chief Col. Sergei Dronov said on Friday.

    The Space Defense Forces are currently equipped with different modifications of the Soviet-era S-300 system.

    “We are receiving new S-400 Triumphs this year as part of a modernization program,” Dronov told Ekho Moskvy radio.

    He did not say how many systems will be deployed, but Air Force chief of staff Major General Viktor Bondarev said in mid-March that one S-400 battalion was currently being deployed at Nakhodka [Russia’s Far East], a second will be based near Moscow, and a third in the Air Force and Air Defense Force chief command.

    The Russian Armed Forces currently have two S-400 regiments, both near Moscow, and a third regiment is to be deployed in the Baltic Fleet.

    The S-400 Triumph long- to medium-range surface-to-air missile system can effectively engage any aerial target, including aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles, and cruise and ballistic missiles at up to 400 kilometers and an altitude of up to 30 kilometers.



    The Russian Defense Ministry has said there are no plans so far to export the S-400. It will be produced only for the Russian Armed Forces.

    http://www.en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120330/172492787.html
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    Post  SOC on Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:27 pm

    I think this has been mentioned before, but the S-400 battery going to Kaliningrad will replace the last operational S-200 battery in Russia. That will mean that the four major Cold War-era strategic SAM systems (S-25, S-75, S-125, S-200) will all be out of Russian service.

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