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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #1

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:10 am

    We can recognize a defensive weapon for what it is.

    You mean like the WMDs the Iraqis had in the 1980s for use against Iran and the Kurds?

    Or the WMDs they didn't have in the 2000s? Razz

    Kennedy got into power claiming his opponent was soft on defence and wasn't doing anything about the missile gap or the bomber gap.

    When he got into power he found out the bomber and missile gap were actually in Americas favour, yet he had promised to get tough and outproduce the soviets in missiles and bombers to "catch up".

    Now tell me again about how POLITICIANs are sensible and wont waste money and energy against defensive systems?

    Russia... or anyone having powerful long range missiles in Cuba... and the associated long range radars would not suit US politicians or military.

    A nice 5,000km range AESA radar looking deep into the heart of the US... like all those NATO radars doing the same to Russia will stir a reaction...

    I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Wink
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    Post  Austin on Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:26 pm

    From Todays Zelins Interview
    http://ria.ru/interview/20120213/564604027.html

    Is there an anti-aircraft missile system for the S-400 long-range missile? To our knowledge, there were problems with the project. Is there a problem with the creation of the C-500? '


    - Anti-aircraft missile system of long-range S-400 "Triumph" is an improved version of anti-aircraft missile system S-300. It can affect all types of manned and unmanned aerial targets at ranges up to 400 km, ballistic missiles with a range of up to 3,500 km and hypersonic and other current and future means of air attack. In conjunction with the forces of air and space defense that SAM, as well as S-300PMU2 "Favorite" will be used to counter ballistic targets and conducting TMD.

    As part of the S-400 was developed long-range anti-aircraft guided missile with a range of over 250 km. In the course of its creation had to solve a number of new scientific and technical problems associated with providing fire for the radio horizon. At present, the state tests of the missile arrival of the first production models are expected in late 2012.

    JSC "GSKB" Almaz-Antei "in conjunction with the Air Force carries out routine work to improve the capacity of existing anti-aircraft missile systems, including the creation of S-500.

    With its creation, the designers decide to set new goals, which is primarily related to the defeat of both existing and future air and space attacks, including in near space.
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    Post  medo on Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:14 pm

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/02/13/s4001/

    To the end of this year S-400 will receive first new longer range missiles. It seems they will get 400 km range missiles and with them S-400 will have full capabilities.
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    Post  Austin on Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:43 pm

    Russian Ministry of Defense will invest in ASD and 20% state armaments program

    Defense Ministry will send up to 20% of all funds of the state armaments program up to 2020 troops on the development of air-space defense (ASD), said Tuesday first deputy defense minister, Alexander Sukhorukov.

    "Created EKR. This is a new branch of service , and, of course, the means for its development are great. From the state armaments program through 2020 - about 15-20% will be directed to the development of aerospace defense forces, "- said Sukhorukov reporters in Saransk.
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    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:33 pm

    While we are at, what is the news on that supposed S-300 upgrade that all units underwent?
    The skeptic inside me is dubious it really touched all units, unless it is a software/electronics upgrade easy to field.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:06 am

    Considering all the sht that Russia has been putting up with from the west regarding western regime change in Libya and attempts in Syria I think it is time for Putin to remind the west that if they are going to play hard ball over resources and "friends" then Russia can too.
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    Post  SOC on Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:35 pm

    TR1 wrote:While we are at, what is the news on that supposed S-300 upgrade that all units underwent?
    The skeptic inside me is dubious it really touched all units, unless it is a software/electronics upgrade easy to field.

    Supposedly the S-300PMs are all now basically Favorit-level systems, analogous to the S-300PMU-2. That gives them the ability to fire the longer-range 48N6D missile, extending reach to 200 km. Given that there is no external difference between the radar array for the PM and the PMU-1/2, an electronics upgrade is entirely possible. You can't upgrade an older S300PT or PS battery to this standard without replacing the engagement radar though. Older systems use 5N63 derivatives, while the newer PM series employs 30N6 series radars.

    GarryB wrote:do you think Putin will not be aware of what is on the UN arms register?

    Of course not. Putin will not take any of that crap. Iran's best hope at magically finding anything remotely resembling a credible air defense system is to start campaigning for Putin, since they're apparently too stupid to try and order the HQ-9 from the Chinese.
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    Post  SOC on Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:21 am

    Austin wrote:All S-300PM facing armed with anti-aircraft missile regiments Troops ASD, have been upgrading the program "Favorit-S"
    http://vpk.name/news/63903_vse_zrs_s300pm_stoyashie_na_vooruzhenii_zenitnyih_raketnyih_polkov_voisk_vko_proshli_modernizaciyu_po_programme_favorits.html

    All anti-aircraft missile system (ADMS), S-300PM facing armed with anti-aircraft missile regiments Forces Aerospace Defense (ASD), passed the modernization program, "Favorit-S".

    The second stage involves improving the means of its upgrade to the P-300PM2, which would increase the probability of destroying ballistic purposes, to replace outdated workstations and computational tools for the modern samples ("Elbrus", "Baguette", RAMEK), enter in the system offline detection and targeting systems, as well as upgraded communications equipment and modern means of topographic location.

    These works, according to some estimates indicate that the efficiency of the upgraded S-300PM to the level of PM2, the reflection of the combined impact of aerodynamic and ballistic targets, increased on average by 15-20%.

    By this we can assume that these systems have all now been upgraded, yes? If that's the case I'll update the SAM Site Overview KML file accordingly to reflect a 200km engagement range rather than the 150km range.
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    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:31 am

    S-400 Missiles Deployed in W. Russia

    RIA Novosti

    15:09 21/02/2012 ST. PETERSBURG, February 21 (RIA Novosti) - New S-400 Triumf air defense systems have been delivered to Russia’s Western Military District and will be put on alert duty in a month, district commander Arkady Bakhin said on Tuesday.

    He did not say exactly where the missiles will be stationed.

    Air Force Commander Alexander Zelin previously said S-400 systems would be deployed near Russia's borders in 2012.

    Some of them will most likely be placed in the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad in response to the planned European missile shield, which Moscow considers a threat to its national security.

    Russia currently has two S-400 regiments protecting the airspace around Moscow.

    State-controlled arms exporter Rosoboronexport has said Russia will not export S-400 systems before 2015 and may not start deliveries to Belarus and Kazakhstan until after 2014.

    The S-400 (SA-21 Growler) air defense system is expected to form the cornerstone of Russia's theater air and missile defenses by 2020.

    The S-400 can engage targets at a range of up to 400 kilometers and an altitude of 40,000-50,000 meters. The system uses an array of assets optimized for engaging ballistic and cruise missiles

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2012/russia-120221-rianovosti04.htm
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    Post  Arrow on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:15 pm

    The S-400 can engage targets at a range of up to 400 kilometers and

    But now S-400 can engage targets at range of up to 240 km and only hight altitude low maneuverable target like AWACS? They say is still problems with long range missile.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:17 pm

    Arrow wrote:
    The S-400 can engage targets at a range of up to 400 kilometers and

    But now S-400 can engage targets at range of up to 240 km and only hight altitude low maneuverable target like AWACS? They say is still problems with long range missile.
    Long missile is supposedly entering service this year.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:53 pm

    Arrow wrote:
    The S-400 can engage targets at a range of up to 400 kilometers and

    But now S-400 can engage targets at range of up to 240 km and only hight altitude low maneuverable target like AWACS? They say is still problems with long range missile.

    This question of the long range missile and the exact ranges of S-400's are a true mine field , literally full of deceiving or completely warped data....

    In any way where you get from the idea that it can engage at long range only low manoeuvrabel aircraft ? Very Happy Very Happy
    Those type of targets (ISR types) are simply the most "paying" targets available at those ranges, but under a strict parametrical point of view S-400 can obliterate as easily the most agile and modern fighter aircraft mantaining also a very ,very wide edge for the task . Wink
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    Post  SOC on Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:19 pm

    Russian Patriot wrote:S-400 Missiles Deployed in W. Russia

    New S-400 Triumf air defense systems have been delivered to Russia’s Western Military District and will be put on alert duty in a month, district commander Arkady Bakhin said on Tuesday.

    He did not say exactly where the missiles will be stationed.

    That pretty much translates to more S-400s around Moscow, unless they want to replace the S-300PS batteries around Voronezh.
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    Post  Arrow on Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:19 pm

    Long missile is supposedly entering service this year.

    This missile entered service years ago and two years ago... Laughing I dont belive it will enter service this year. I think that is many problems with this missile Neutral

    That pretty much translates to more S-400s around Moscow

    Moscow air defense has many modern S-300PM which upgrade to PM-2 standart. I think the modern S-400 should be put in another region in Russia where air defense is poor and use old system like S-300PS, and S-300V.
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    Post  Viktor on Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:18 am

    Arrow wrote:This missile entered service years ago and two years ago... Laughing I dont belive it will enter service this year. I think that is many problems with this missile Neutral

    There is nothing wrong with long ranged missile itself and that has being confirmed by Amaz-Antej chief.

    Problems for its delayed introduction where

    1. There where no adequate target missile to test 40N6
    2. New target missile where needed to be constructed but there where also problem with shortages of money for it
    3. There where also problem of shortages of money for 40N6

    Missile performed as designed in its testing and there is nothing wrong with it.


    Arrow wrote:Moscow air defense has many modern S-300PM which upgrade to PM-2 standart. I think the modern S-400 should be put in another region in Russia where air defense is poor and use old system like S-300PS, and S-300V.

    There is nothig old with S-300V.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:06 am

    This missile entered service years ago and two years ago... Laughing I dont belive it will enter service this year. I think that is many problems with this missile Neutral

    I think things are pretty clear really.

    The S-400 with a range of 400km is based on a new way of using an old design, so in many ways it a case of them deciding they can get a lot more performance out of an existing missile, but obviously they need to do a lot of tests before they can officially state that that is its performance.

    It is a bit like putting a high magnification thermal scope with laser range finder and embedded GLONASS on an SVDS rifle and saying that before the rifle, with a x4 power scope can kill at 600m, but with the new accurate rangefinder and high magnification scope with a built in ballistics computer that gives the shooter an aimpoint to use to hit targets that the new max effective range of the same rifle is now 800m against point targets. You can't just develop the scope and plop it on and make that claim, you have to take the weapon out to the range and test it at 800m quite a bit, in a range of conditions including total darkness and then you can change all your spec sheets.

    It sounds like they have lacked proper targets and ranges for testing... finding a test range that even allows 400km range tests would be quite a feat in itself.

    There have been plenty of rumours and claims in the past about this missile entering service and we probably will never know for sure, as it really isn't in their interests to let us know the truth.
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    Post  SOC on Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:17 am

    Arrow wrote:Moscow air defense has many modern S-300PM which upgrade to PM-2 standart. I think the modern S-400 should be put in another region in Russia where air defense is poor and use old system like S-300PS, and S-300V.

    Moscow makes more sense, if they're going to the Western Zone. Replacing the upgraded PMs might seem a bit odd, but it is entirely sensible. Replacing them around Moscow gives the capital area the best air defenses, which is smart, and also frees up upgraded PM batteries for relocation. There are still quite a few S-300PT and S-00PS batteries around, and freeing up upgraded PMs allows you to replace these older systems.

    GarryB wrote:finding a test range that even allows 400km range tests would be quite a feat in itself

    Sary Shagan would work, that's where most of the original testing for the S-300PT and S-300PS took place anyway. Although I think the 400km test they did with the 48N6 took place at Kapustin Yar, firing into the range area close to the old Emba test complex in Kazakhstan.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:23 am

    As the Ukrainian accident a few years back with their SA-5s (S-200s) hitting an Israeli passenger jet at 250km range, you really have to be very careful with these sorts of weapons... even just testing them.

    Blowing up in the launch container is not the worst thing that can happen...
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    Post  SOC on Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:20 pm

    GarryB wrote:As the Ukrainian accident a few years back with their SA-5s (S-200s) hitting an Israeli passenger jet at 250km range, you really have to be very careful with these sorts of weapons... even just testing them.

    Either of the two test ranges shouldn't be too big of a problem, provided they clear the airspace first. At least they wouldn't be pointing straight into international airspace!

    I've never heard a convincing explanation of the Ukrainian incident, either. The S-200 is a SARH weapon, meaning you have to point a CW illuminating beam at the target right up until intercept. That implies that they locked up and fired on an airliner without realizing what went on. Simply turning off the 5N62 would've solved the problem had they realized the error, as there would have been no way for the S-200 to guide.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:12 am

    The S-200 is huge and old, it is certainly possible that they were experimenting with an active radar homing model that flew off course and found its own target.

    At the time I remember reading that they lost control of it, and as you say if it were a SARH model they could simply turn off the target illumination radar and it should not hit anything... except the ground of course.

    The thing is that if you fitted the missile with an active radar homing head it would be much more accurate as it is taking its illumination radar with it, which means much shorter radar distances, which greatly improves accuracy, but it also means the warhead could be reduced in weight because it is more likely to hit its target, which should further improve performance...

    Perhaps they might have fitted it with an IR or EO seeker?

    I think active radar homing is most likely the culprit.
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    Post  Arrow on Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:07 pm

    [quote]The S-400 with a range of 400km is based on a new way of using an old design.

    So the new long range missile is based on 48N6 series missile ? or 9M82M missile from S-300VM. I think that new long range missile for S-400 is against for ballistic missiles with a range of up to 3,500 km optional aircraft targets at ranges up to 400 km like AWACS. It has two stage. Similary like 9M82, 9M82M missile from S-300V system, but with better parameters.
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    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:46 pm

    I think speculating on what 40N6 when so little is reveled is not good , they have said in past its new system but we really dont know.

    I think past test with 48N6 and knowledge gained will be transferred to S-300V4
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:07 am

    I try to follow such things but all the public comment I have seen seems to state that the 400km range missile is the standard large S-400 missile and the extended range achieved is through using a ballistic flight path that lofts the missile high into a long parabolic flight path.

    AFAIK the changes are in software to shape the flight path to reach the target, and of course the problems with control and stabilisation at altitudes where there is little or no air flowing over the missile... and of course the pressure changes of leaving and reentering the atmosphere, and of course the extreme changes in temperature of flying at mach 6 or thereabouts and then operating in the freezing vacuum of space and them coming back into the atmosphere and being heated again by air friction...

    Using a multi stage missile would make things easier, but AFAIK they always talked about using the standard large missile of the S-300/S-400 series.

    The S-300V missiles are totally different and would not be compatible with the S-400 launchers.
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    Post  SOC on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:15 am

    Garry, I don't believe that the 400km 48N6 test Fakel conducted involved any actual exoatmospheric flight.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:53 am

    A straight parabola flight path (like that of artillery shell) that reaches 400km in distance would need to climb to at least 100km in height, and in practical terms anything above about 30km and you are above most of the atmosphere already.

    Problems I remember reading mentioned was loss of stabilisation from control surfaces and freezing.

    AFAIK there was no exoatmospheric manouvering, but a portion of the flight is exoatmospheric.

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