Indian Air Force (IAF): News

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

mnztr wrote:

Sujoy wrote:
Existing factories that HAL has do not have the capability to build Mig 29s. They are imported as Completely Knocked Down (CKD) units from Russia. They are simply assembled in India.

I think this is why the Indians are allowing the SU-35 into the new competition. While on the face of it the SU-35 in a "light fighter"competition seems rediculous, the fact is, retooling costs and expertise from SU-30 operations will save billions. The additional capability of deploying more heavy fighters as China grows in power is highly desirable. In fact, with the latest developments on the Chinese border, the Indians really need to purchase 110 SU-35s and 100 SU-57s. They should also demand a "no China" clause with the SU-57

 probably the last few posts are off topic and would fit better in the indian air force thread.

Furthermore India is in no position to ask for any no China clause with any Russian product... and I find it as well ridiculous...

Do you think it make sense that they could buy french and American equipment, but Russia should be limited in selling an aircraft they developed alone (India left the partnership before they did any contribution, and even in that case it would have just been about participating in expenses for improving some of the systems (like the case of a gulf country and the pantsir system).... just because india might buy a few dozen airplanes?

Well yes they can, it would have to be a substantial buy, at least 100, and the Russians are quite reluctant to sell to the Chinese anyway because of all the copying. The price of the SU-57 would reflect the quantity and investment India is willing to make in the platform.Russia is not stupid, they realize India needs to buy form several sources. Russia will know its a clause they can break if they really need to, if relations with India change dramatically (unlikely)

mnztr wrote:..the Russians are quite reluctant to sell to the Chinese anyway because of all the copying.

What do you mean ALL the copying?  You're paying too much attention to BS murican talking points intended to misinform and provoke. The Chinese reverse engineered a Soviet-era Su-33 from Ukropistan - so what?  The J-15 might be a structural copy of the Sukhoi but its engines and avionics and weapons are all indigenous.  They only built a few dozen and aren't going to export it in competition with Sukhoi, so its not like Russia has lost any significant sales. Instead of blaming China, why not blame the fucking Ukrainians?

Name me just one other system that China has ripped off from Russia?  Chinese miltech (where not based on old Soviet-era articles from prior to the Sino-Soviet split) is distinctly indigenous in origin and are clearly not copies.  The Chinese are not about to illegally reproduce miltech purchased from Russian sources, so this is just distracting nonsense.

Regarding the Su-57, I don't see the Chinese as being interested.  They will certainly want engine tech, and would salivate at any prospect at getting a deal on supply of izd30s, but they can build their own fighters and avionics and weapons. India on the other hand is a comparative basket case that can't even finish the Tejas (nearly 20 years after the 1st flight and they've managed to build only 33 units??   ) and are in no position to make demands when they are on their knees begging for advanced tech from their betters.

But how will IAF replace the current Mig 29UPG fleet with Mig 29M2? There is no buy back option. Therefore, what Russia might want to do is to push as many upgrades into the existing Mig 29UPG model. Upgraded engines, sensors, radar and perhaps even the weapon system.

There can't really be a buy back option for the old MiGs because there are too many foreign components...

What they could do is replace all the foreign components in the UPG MiGs with Russian components from the MiG-20M2 but not all those parts will be compatible because of the different airframes... but of course even if everything fit perfectly the older MiG has a heavier airframe with less space for fuel and bits and pieces, so it will always be inferior to the M2... no matter how much you spend on it.

Existing factories that HAL has do not have the capability to build Mig 29s. They are imported as Completely Knocked Down (CKD) units from Russia. They are simply assembled in India.

Well if India insists on its policy of local manufacture they are going to have to spend the extra money to do so.

Personally, while I understand why they have the policy I think they need to be smarter about it.

Spending billions of dollars building a factory to make MiG-29M2s from scratch to then only make 200-300 of them is a terrible waste of money because odds are the export market in competition with MiG means that is about all they can make and a factory designed to make MiG-29M2s could be used to upgrade to MiG-35s, but you wont be able to make Tegas models of any mark or Sukhois either.

I know it is not popular... but buying new MiG parts and assembling them in India means it is not so expensive and you can keep doing that with the new aircraft probably with no major or expensive changes and then spend the billions of dollars on an AESA radar joint venture.

The ability to make your own AESA radars would be very important.... AESA radars can be used from everything like the seekers in missiles through aircraft (civilian and military), ground vehicles, naval vessels and platforms (civilian and military).

Tanks and IFVs can use it for APS systems (active protection systems like ARENA and DROZD and AFGANIT and STANDARD), or just shooting at targets at night or bad weather... it can be used to check the trajectory of outgoing ammo for artillery and air defence guns, it can perform search and track functions on a ship and pass such data to all the weapon systems on board so SAMs and Guns don't need their own search radars each... and of course land or sea or air drones could use them in recon missions in all weather day or night.

The applications are enormous and would be a serious force multiplier...

You could focus on cheaper systems or more expensive and more capable systems, but I would suggest cheaper systems could be sold internationally and raise the game in a lot of areas.... imagine a shoulder fired MANPADS with an ARH AESA seeker that can lock on to aircraft sized targets at say 10km day or night... would make an excellent light weapon for aircraft dealing with a large cruise missile attack.

Are you kidding me? It makes all the sense in the world. What do you really gain from a new frame? A MIG 21 with an incredible radar and long range AAMs can take on just about any plane in the world. The frame is just a platform. As long as it has carrying capability, a good flight envelope and enough electrical capacity to power the latest sensors and weapons then its all good.

Variants of the MIG-21 are still in production in China

I don't disagree, but keeping a MiG-21 flying is getting harder and harder... it is like trying to find a good reliable 3.5 inch floppy disk drive... most of mine are shagged from dust or just worn out... it is cheaper and easier to just buy a USB memory stick... the other problem is that there is no much you could fit on a 1.44 MB floppy disk these days.

You can fit a decent radar and modern AAMs to a MiG-21 and replace all the electronics and equipment with new stuff but the MiG-21 was a limited aircraft.

It was cheap to run but didn't have good range or payload.

To be fair in a modern air force with AWACS support whether you are operating a MiG-21 or MiG-29 wont matter because both will have their radars off getting target information from the AWACS platform... but the MiG-29 can have a bigger better radar and can accelerate and climb faster to give extra energy to weapons being launched and its IRST and more sophisticated aerodynamics mean in close combat it should be superior to most older and some newer planes.

That is why I like the Iranian F-5 programme... take a decent but cheap little fighter and give everything an upgrade without making it a medium fighter and therefore more expensive to buy and operate.

The other way I can think of doing it is with the MiG-29M2 and MiG-35 sharing the same airframe... effectively what you are doing is having a medium fighter with all the best stuff you can afford in the form of the MiG-35, but also the MiG-29M2 as the bargain basement low cost model that is more capable than a smaller fighter upgraded, but not as expensive as the medium fighter with all the bells and whistles.

Effectively the idea is replacing the light cheap fighter with a medium fighter that is cheaper... it wont be as cheap as a light fighter could be but has more potential for better performance and capabilities... remember as the technologies in the MiG-35 mature and get cheaper they can be transferred to the cheaper model and more exotic and more capable systems can be developed for the MiG-35... so you might have the MiG-29M2 as your cheaper numbers aircraft, and the MiG-35s as your premium aircraft... over time you will work out what in the MiG-35 is worth the extra cost and what is not and so after 5 years of experience you can upgrade your MiG-29M2s with the most effective parts of the 35 now that they are mature and proven, and after 5 years you should have new stuff you want in service so effectively your MiG-29M2s get upgraded to MiG-35s and your MiG-35s can be upgraded to MiG-35Ms... the MiG-35 becomes the cheaper numbers plane that is more capable than before, while the MiG-35M might have brand new technology fitted... new types of radar or engines etc...

I think this is why the Indians are allowing the SU-35 into the new competition. While on the face of it the SU-35 in a "light fighter"competition seems rediculous, the fact is, retooling costs and expertise from SU-30 operations will save billions.

But isn't that just repeating the same mistake again? The Rafale should never have been accepted in the last competition... there was never any possibility of the French selling them 126 Rafales for 10 billion dollars... it cost 8 billion for 36 Rafales... at that rate 126 planes would be 28 billion.

I think if they just want another 50 MiGs then local assembly will have to do... especially if they don't want to give up the foreign components being used.

In fact, with the latest developments on the Chinese border, the Indians really need to purchase 110 SU-35s and 100 SU-57s. They should also demand a "no China" clause with the SU-57

If they are prepared to accept a no buying weapons from the US clause in the contract too... which I don't think they will.

probably the last few posts are off topic and would fit better in the indian air force thread.

Fair comment... I will move this soon.

Well yes they can, it would have to be a substantial buy, at least 100, and the Russians are quite reluctant to sell to the Chinese anyway because of all the copying. The price of the SU-57 would reflect the quantity and investment India is willing to make in the platform.Russia is not stupid, they realize India needs to buy form several sources. Russia will know its a clause they can break if they really need to, if relations with India change dramatically (unlikely)

Russia does not have bad relations with China like India does... they are not best buddies, but have no reason not to sell aircraft that were designed for exporting like the export model of the Su-57.

India had the chance to get a more capable and sophisticated version that was to a degree customised to their specific needs and they backed out of that.

I am not sure China would be interested in buying more than a couple of Su-57s which means Russia wont be interested anyway.

India on the other hand is a comparative basket case that can't even finish the Tejas (nearly 20 years after the 1st flight and they've managed to build only 33 units?? Razz ) and are in no position to make demands when they are on their knees begging for advanced tech from their betters.

Not to mention the Indian habit of criticism.... they endlessly complain about having to pay 2.5 billion for an aircraft carrier and the aircraft that operate from it... sure it was only supposed to cost 700K and with the air component was going to total 1.5 billion, but after they ripped it open and looked inside at the guts they had to spend an extra billion replacing all the wiring and piping and basically replacing and overhauling the propulsion system... yet they have a ten billion dollar competition for 126 medium weight fighter planes and let France enter with the Rafale. In the end they pay 8 billion dollars for 36 planes but that gets no criticism at all... 36 planes for 8 BILLION DOLLARS... At that price the full 126 aircraft would have cost 28 billion... triple the price they wanted to pay... isn't that worse?

With Tegas I think they need to get it into proper production and service and just deal with the problems as they come up.

I don't mean F-35 type deal with them by pretending it is not really a problem that the oxygen system suffocates the pilot... because that is a problem on all the American fighters that use that faulty system... the fact that it is costing 1.5 trillion dollars and still isn't stealthy or supersonic...

The US should pay the Chinese to look through the plans and see if they can fix it... the British got the Germans to fix their rifle, so what is the difference?

Russia for its part has sold multiple batches of fighters to India just since MMRCA was announced, and even if the agreement had stalled it was expected to continue to sign new contracts for advanced multirole fighters jets under separate deals. Alongside ongoing orders for MiG-29 and Su-30MKI fighters, India has shown considerable interest in a range of new Russian designs including the Yak-130 fighter-trainer and the MiG-35 ‘4++ generation’ medium fighter.
Although the Tejas its not was capable as most jets in the MMRCA, its capabilities are comparable to the lightweight Gripen E fighter and it uses a very similar F414 engine. Being lighter, the Tejas has a lower operational cost than the F-16, F-21 or the twin engine competitors, and the design is expected to see continued improvements to its capabilities including the integration of a wider range of new weapons systems.
https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/did-india-just-cancel-the-biggest-fighter-jet-tender-of-the-decade-delhi-looks-to-tejas-platform-to-replace-mmrca-competitors

So, the Tejas would just eliminate F-16/21 fighters only.
In the meantime, India has enough MiG-29s to back it up.

mnztr wrote: I think this is why the Indians are allowing the SU-35 into the new competition. While on the face of it the SU-35 in a "light fighter"competition seems rediculous, the fact is, retooling costs and expertise from SU-30 operations will save billions.

The competition has been scrapped. IAF will purchase 83 Tejas LCA within the next 5-6 years. And will purchase 100 + LCA Mk 2 within the next 15 years.

The Super Sukhoi program (which is now in the back burner because of the financial crunch) will improve the capabilities of the Su 30MKI. The Su 30MKi will also get an AESA.  

mnztr wrote:The additional capability of deploying more heavy fighters as China grows in power is highly desirable.

 Given the very high altitude in the Tibet, China will not be able to fly their fighter with a full payload. They will have to operate from the heartland. China depends on its massive cruise missile and TBM forces placed in Tibet to strike deep inside India.

mnztr wrote:In fact, with the latest developments on the Chinese border, the Indians really need to purchase 110 SU-35s and 100 SU-57s.

200 + Su 30MKI will do. IAF is purchasing an additional squadron of Su 30MKI.  However, Chinese S-400 SAMs in Tibet can knock off Indian Su 30MKIs within Indian air space. OTOH, India won't get the S-400 before December 2023.


I suspect India will eventually purchase the Su 57 to replace the Su 30MKI.

mnztr wrote:They should also demand a "no China" clause with the SU-57

That will cause huge financial losses to Russia. Russia won't accept it. India and China both flies the Su 30 as well, albeit with some changes in specs.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Do you think it make sense that they could buy french and American equipment, but Russia should be limited in selling an aircraft they developed alone

Su 35 has French equipment, Kamov helicopters uses US made equipment.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:(India left the partnership before they did any contribution, and even in that case it would have just been about participating in expenses for improving some of the systems (like the case of a gulf country and the pantsir system)

FAIL. India contributed $250 million to the project.

Big_Gazza wrote:India on the other hand is a comparative basket case that can't even finish the Tejas (nearly 20 years after the 1st flight and they've managed to build only 33 units?? )

Tejas was completed 10 years ago. The IAF didn't place any order because they were more interested in procuring Su 30 and Rafale.

Big_Gazza wrote:and are in no position to make demands when they are on their knees begging for advanced tech from their betters.

When did this happen? It's the Yankees, Brits, Ruskies who prostrate before India, encouraging them to buy their latest military hardware.

That will cause huge financial losses to Russia.

India doesn't seem keen on buying any Su-57s let alone decent numbers of them, so why would Russia limits its sales based on Indias wishes if India doesn't want any either.

Perhaps if India bought 300 over the next 10 years the production capacity making planes for India and Russia would mean it wouldn't be able to make any for China, but I don't see China wanting any anyway... they seem to want to make their own.

Su 35 has French equipment, Kamov helicopters uses US made equipment.

Europe hasn't been able to supply military equipment since 2014... the Su-35 is all Russian... a lot of it taken from the Su-57 for testing... which is why there is no two seat model of the Su-35 or the Su-57... they both have 5th gen avionics with a virtual copilot...

A couple of Kamov helicopters use French engines but are in the process of replacing them with Russian ones.

During the cold war there were a few things the Soviets bought from their east european allies... one was fighter trainers... ie the L-39, and the other was light helicopters in the form of the Mil Mi-2 which is a soviet/Russian design but made in eastern europe so they lacked light helicopters and lead in fighter trainers.

A lot of helicopter engines were also make in the Ukraine, but are now made in Russia by Klimov.

FAIL. India contributed $250 million to the project.

250 million is peanuts... the Brits paid 2 billion to the F-35 programme and they are not even allowed access to the source code to integrate their own weapons. It use Brimstone on the F-35 they have to hand over all the details of Brimstone to the Americans... and they will do it for them.

Tejas was completed 10 years ago. The IAF didn't place any order because they were more interested in procuring Su 30 and Rafale.

That is really short sighted...

I believe some french components remained in the su30SM (since it is derived from the su30MKI that included a lot of french components) but all the avionics and navigation systems of the su35 are Russian. I could be wrong, though

French parts had to be removed from all Russian platforms...

And the Su-30SM has nothing to do with the Su-30MKI, the Su-30M is the Russian plane the Su-30MKI was based on, but the Su-30SM is the Su-27SM upgrade applied to a two seat Su-30M and is of no relation to the Indian/Russian co-developed plane.

Su-30SM has french avionics and the upgrade to SM1 standard will replace all the french stuff (mainly Thales) with russian made equipment and unify the aircraft with the su-35.

If i am not mistaken they originally agreed to invest 6 $ billions and left the program after almost no sensible contribution (If it is as you say 250 millions it is just 4.17% of the amount they should have invested according to the agreement)...
They paid more for one single Rafale from France (with spares and support for a few years...but still...)

Indian investement was for a twin seater su-57 for their own airforce. What they paid for the developement of the su57 was supposed to be given to indians for their own version so they don't develope it from scratch.

But they asked too much in exchange for small amount of money. 250 million dollars is nothing when you develop such aircraft.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:fail from India, I would say:
If i am not mistaken they originally agreed to invest 6 $ billions and left the program after almost no sensible contribution (If it is as you say 250 millions it is just 4.17% of the amount they should have invested according to the agreement)...

India paid $250 million as that was the asking amount to join the project. However, the project itself had started long before India joined. Indian government never said that they intend to purchase the Su 57. The JV with Russia was for the development of a stealth fighter called the Prospective Multirole Fighter or PMF. The PMF probably would have borrowed several features including stealth from the Su 57. However, IAF officers who visited the Sukhoi complex to inspect the Su 57 were not satisfied either with the stealth features or with the engine.
And now with China deploying S-400 in Tibet they will blow every single Su 57 out of the sky within Indian airspace itself.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:They paid more for one single Rafale from France (with spares and support for a few years...but still...)

Paid more compared to whom? They paid what France asked for after several rounds of price negotiation. Rafale is a superb aircraft. A more profound questions could have been why did the IAF purchase 250 + Su 30 MKI if they still needed an aircraft like Rafale?

GarryB wrote:India doesn't seem keen on buying any Su-57s let alone decent numbers

India never said it will purchase Su 57. India wanted an aircraft called the PMF. Su 57 would have served as the baseline model. India's requirement for stealth were different from that of RuAF. IOW, India wanted an aircraft that is more stealthy than Su 57. Russia has said they won't be able to design such an aircraft anytime soon.

Even RuAF has not purchased Su 57 in decent numbers. Just 11 have been ordered.

First you say they Chinese don't copy, then you say they want to copy (or derive) from the new engines. Yes the fact that China has about 3 stealth projects underway means they are not really intersted in buying substantial SU-57s, so why can India not ask for a no China clause? A whole range of Chinese weapons are Russian derived. No significant lic $ has been paid unlike India which does pay licence fees for SU-30. Yes India is much less advanced then China, no doubt there at all. They are at a big disadvantage to China.

Big_Gazza wrote:

mnztr wrote:..the Russians are quite reluctant to sell to the Chinese anyway because of all the copying.

What do you mean ALL the copying?  You're paying too much attention to BS murican talking points intended to misinform and provoke. The Chinese reverse engineered a Soviet-era Su-33 from Ukropistan - so what?  The J-15 might be a structural copy of the Sukhoi but its engines and avionics and weapons are all indigenous.  They only built a few dozen and aren't going to export it in competition with Sukhoi, so its not like Russia has lost any significant sales. Instead of blaming China, why not blame the fucking Ukrainians?

Name me just one other system that China has ripped off from Russia?  Chinese miltech (where not based on old Soviet-era articles from prior to the Sino-Soviet split) is distinctly indigenous in origin and are clearly not copies.  The Chinese are not about to illegally reproduce miltech purchased from Russian sources, so this is just distracting nonsense.

Regarding the Su-57, I don't see the Chinese as being interested.  They will certainly want engine tech, and would salivate at any prospect at getting a deal on supply of izd30s, but they can build their own fighters and avionics and weapons. India on the other hand is a comparative basket case that can't even finish the Tejas (nearly 20 years after the 1st flight and they've managed to build only 33 units??   ) and are in no position to make demands when they are on their knees begging for advanced tech from their betters.

Sujoy wrote:
Even RuAF has not purchased Su 57 in decent numbers. Just 11 have been ordered.

I was under the impression (from news releases) that 76 have been ordered by Russia. Not true?

Sujoy wrote:
That will cause huge financial losses to Russia. Russia won't accept it. India and China both flies the Su 30 as well, albeit with some changes in specs.

The clause will be SU-57 related only. I don't see China doing much weapons business with Russia any more. They are prettu self sufficient at this point. So what losses would they incur?

mnztr wrote:Yes India is much less advanced then China, no doubt there at all. They are at a big disadvantage to China.

Less advanced in terms of the size of the economy. In defence India is probably ahead of China because of all the imports, but China still has the numbers especially when it comes to fighter jets and subs.

mnztr wrote:I was under the impression (from news releases) that 76 have been ordered by Russia. Not true?

So far 11 Su 57 have been built. By 2028 it is expected 76 will join the RuAF.

mnztr wrote:I don't see China doing much weapons business with Russia any more. They are prettu self sufficient at this point. So what losses would they incur?

Is that so? Yes the volume of trade (in defense) has gone down drastically but China continues to import engines for aircraft.

Despite building 250 + J-11 China still purchased 24 Su 35. Meaning they are still struggling to design even 4th++ gen aircraft. They might want to purchase Su 57 once it's available

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2020/02/22/china-is-interested-of-su-57-fighter-jet-and-purchase-is-possible/

GarryB wrote:The ability to make your own AESA radars would be very important.... AESA radars can be used from everything like the seekers in missiles through aircraft (civilian and military), ground vehicles, naval vessels and platforms (civilian and military).

DRDO has developed a AESA radar called Uttam (Sanskrit for Best). It will be fitted on the Tejas Mark 1A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttam_AESA_Radar

I suspect India will be keen on upgrading the Mig 29UPG but will probably not buy Mig 29M2.

So it will be interesting to see:

(1) if Russia can convert the Mig 29UPG into a plug-and-play aircraft; and

(2) what are the upgrades that Russia can offer. Maybe better engines, new & better sensors, better weapons etc

GarryB wrote:Tanks and IFVs can use it for APS systems (active protection systems like ARENA and DROZD and AFGANIT and STANDARD), or just shooting at targets at night or bad weather... it can be used to check the trajectory of outgoing ammo for artillery and air defence guns, it can perform search and track functions on a ship and pass such data to all the weapon systems on board so SAMs and Guns don't need their own search radars each... and of course land or sea or air drones could use them in recon missions in all weather day or night.

Are these APS - Arena, Drozd using AESA radars that were derived from AESA radars already installed on Mig and Sukhoi fighter jets?

they all use the same T/R Modules.  Just depends on how they are configured for frequency.

AESA on Tejas? That will have shit tracking range.  Tejas lacks the overall power and if anything is considered - 10% failure rate of average T/R module, it will be lacking. They must be 5W modules.

Sujoy wrote:

mnztr wrote:Yes India is much less advanced then China, no doubt there at all. They are at a big disadvantage to China.

Less advanced in terms of the size of the economy. In defence India is probably ahead of China because of all the imports, but China still has the numbers especially when it comes to fighter jets and subs.

mnztr wrote:I was under the impression (from news releases) that 76 have been ordered by Russia. Not true?

So far 11 Su 57 have been built. By 2028 it is expected 76 will join the RuAF.

mnztr wrote:I don't see China doing much weapons business with Russia any more. They are prettu self sufficient at this point. So what losses would they incur?

Is that so? Yes the volume of trade (in defense) has gone down drastically but China continues to import engines for aircraft.

Despite building 250 + J-11 China still purchased 24 Su 35. Meaning they are still struggling to design even 4th++ gen aircraft. They might want to purchase Su 57 once it's available

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2020/02/22/china-is-interested-of-su-57-fighter-jet-and-purchase-is-possible/

- India has only the Rafale (v small numbers) and the SU-30 that are close to the top tier. The rest are trash.(ok the Mig 29K s. pretty good as well)

- I think China just agreed to buy a batch of SU35 to use a a benchmark for its own aircraft development. Russia figures the platform is quite old and already the backbone of Chinese AC tech it may as well get some extra $$.

Giving India and exclusive on the SU-57 confidentially will not at all mean th end of exports to China. Its only one platform and not likely China will buy them.

There is no way that India can compete with China on a quality/quantity basis.

The Indians ordered the su30MKI with expensive Israeli and french components (possibly at that time more advanced than the russian ones, even if this fact is not anymore true at present time). By the way, I believe Indians have a sort of fetish trying to mishmash many parts from different sources even when it is not advantageous (e.g fitting Israeli barak short range missiles in their shivalik class frigates instead of Tor, even if almost everything else is of russian origin.

They also have a habit of complaining about how expensive things are... yet the very process of buying a plane and then wanting foreign bits to be added to that design makes it more expensive. The most expensive components of the Su-30MKI are the foreign bits, but they blame Russia for it being too expensive despite it being rather cheaper than the Rafales they have bought.

India paid $250 million as that was the asking amount to join the project.

Did they think they could start producing Su-57MKIs straight away? No one sells 5th gen fighter technology for 250 million dollars... that might get you a flight on a prototype, but it doesn't buy you anything...

However, the project itself had started long before India joined. Indian government never said that they intend to purchase the Su 57. The JV with Russia was for the development of a stealth fighter called the Prospective Multirole Fighter or PMF. The PMF probably would have borrowed several features including stealth from the Su 57. However, IAF officers who visited the Sukhoi complex to inspect the Su 57 were not satisfied either with the stealth features or with the engine.
And now with China deploying S-400 in Tibet they will blow every single Su 57 out of the sky within Indian airspace itself.

They wanted to take an existing design and modify it to their needs... ie Su-57MKI... but they would have to pay for that adaptation and they are talking about serious hardware changes if that is the case... increased stealth is a money pit that will make the aircraft too expensive to operate and wont be effective against all radar which makes it a gimmick. Improved engines... if you want to fully fund development costs I am sure they will share... but you have to pay... you can't just pay the fee to get in the door and expect to go on all the rides for free.

If S-400 is so damn powerful I guess you don't want any aircraft any more...

Paid more compared to whom? They paid what France asked for after several rounds of price negotiation. Rafale is a superb aircraft. A more profound questions could have been why did the IAF purchase 250 + Su 30 MKI if they still needed an aircraft like Rafale?

For 36 Rafales they spent 8 billion dollars... to buy 250 Rafales would cost about 55 billion... for that sort of money they could invest in the development of radar and engine technology that would make Rafale look ordinary and buy 1,000 planes to put it in.

India never said it will purchase Su 57. India wanted an aircraft called the PMF. Su 57 would have served as the baseline model. India's requirement for stealth were different from that of RuAF. IOW, India wanted an aircraft that is more stealthy than Su 57. Russia has said they won't be able to design such an aircraft anytime soon.

Such a plan is chasing ones own tail... even if you manage to develop a plane design that cannot be detected beyond 80km range... how long do you think before radar technology improves and that becomes 160km or more... your stealth plane wont suddenly get cheaper to make or buy when the enemy can defeat its invisibility shield... besides.... the obvious question... why would India care about Russia selling Su-57s to China if India is not buying Su-57s anyway... China has Su-27s and Su-30MKKs and Su-35s... but not the same as Indian Flankers or Russian Flankers either.

Even RuAF has not purchased Su 57 in decent numbers. Just 11 have been ordered.

A preliminary order of 76 has been made over the next 5 years or so and after that the expectation is that they will likely order more too.

First you say they Chinese don't copy, then you say they want to copy (or derive) from the new engines. Yes the fact that China has about 3 stealth projects underway means they are not really intersted in buying substantial SU-57s, so why can India not ask for a no China clause?

For the same reason the Russians can't demand a no America clause that prevents India from buying any American military equipment while buying Russian kit.

India can buy from any country they like and Russia can sell to any country they like... that is how it works.

Yes India is much less advanced then China, no doubt there at all. They are at a big disadvantage to China.

They seem to want to look at France and the US for their salvation at the moment...

The US is certainly keen to use India against China like it used China against the Soviets before. China certainly benefited from that experience and India might too. I don't think Russia wants to play such silly games as it has felt the US sanctions itself.

I was under the impression (from news releases) that 76 have been ordered by Russia. Not true?

AFAIK in addition to the 11 pre serial models...

The clause will be SU-57 related only. I don't see China doing much weapons business with Russia any more. They are prettu self sufficient at this point. So what losses would they incur?

China is a neighbour for Russia and has a lot of money for investment and development... and is willing to invest in Russia to earn money for both parties... why would Russia risk such a relationship on some planes India might or might not buy, but seem happy to criticise...

So far 11 Su 57 have been built. By 2028 it is expected 76 will join the RuAF.

So a further 76 have been ordered...

Is that so? Yes the volume of trade (in defense) has gone down drastically but China continues to import engines for aircraft.

Despite building 250 + J-11 China still purchased 24 Su 35. Meaning they are still struggling to design even 4th++ gen aircraft. They might want to purchase Su 57 once it's available

Indeed they might. Building working planes is more than just building a shell that looks pretty and filling it with electronics and engines and radar... and if they want to buy a substantial number of Su-57s why would Russia wants to tie its hands with India and say no?

Of course if they order two they will say no... I suspect the order will need to be rather substantial... rather more than 36 planes and they wont be paying 40 million dollars each for them either...

DRDO has developed a AESA radar called Uttam (Sanskrit for Best). It will be fitted on the Tejas Mark 1A

So scale it up and put it in your other planes already...

India talks about made in India, but is such a compulsive shopper...

Are these APS - Arena, Drozd using AESA radars that were derived from AESA radars already installed on Mig and Sukhoi fighter jets?

Not even close... they are just very simple radio echo sounders that detect incoming objects that quickly determine speed and direction and decide if it is going to hit the vehicle being protected and if it is to determine which fixed interception rocket would do the best job of stopping it... the angle and speed are fixed so it is a case of determining when the target is in the kill zone and launching the correct munition at the precise right time for the interception.

- I think China just agreed to buy a batch of SU35 to use a a benchmark for its own aircraft development. Russia figures the platform is quite old and already the backbone of Chinese AC tech it may as well get some extra $$.

The Su-35 is not old at all, it is relatively new and the Russian version has early prototype equipment for the 5th gen Su-57 for testing and speeding up Su-57 development. The Chinese Su-35 will of course be different.

In a conflict between Russia and China fighter planes wont be particularly significant, while the money from the sales wont go to bonuses for CEOs of the company... they will fund improvements and new developments that will make Russian aircraft even better.

Russia is also going to build a strategic early warning system so they will know when they are under ballistic or cruise missile attack... Russia is not afraid of a strong China... I don't know why India is.

The British and Americans are afraid because China is becoming a serious rival to their monopoly, but the same British and American voices warning India of the danger of China are also likely warning India of the danger of buying Russian military equipment too... you could listen to one warning and not the other, but it comes down to credibility and I think the second warning shows they are more interested in weapons sales than actually caring about India.

Giving India and exclusive on the SU-57 confidentially will not at all mean th end of exports to China. Its only one platform and not likely China will buy them.

They don't even want to buy any (india) so why agree not to sell to China?

Is India going to start demanding little clauses in all their purchases now.... what happens if they decide to give in to some American pressure and start demanding that Russia does not sell any Su-30s to Iran... it is a slippery slope.

GarryB wrote:They also have a habit of complaining about how expensive things are.

Indian are an arrogant bunch but in a way that makes them look foolish. A dirt poor country, where the majority of people live from hand to mouth during most of their life. Yet they pretend to act big while negotiating defence deals with Russia.

GarryB wrote:Is India going to start demanding little clauses in all their purchases now.... what happens if they decide to give in to some American pressure and start demanding that Russia does not sell any Su-30s to Iran... it is a slippery slope.

Obnoxious people like these Hindus should always be avoided by Russia.

On a number of occasions these low-lifes with no class and worthless as a used rubber had forced Russia not to sell weapons to China and especially Pakistan. In the process Russia lost billions of dollars worth of lucrative contracts. Russia should make a list of weapons that China and Pakistan are interested in purchasing and take that list to India to figure out if India is willing to purchase those weapons. If not Russia should immediately sell those weapons to China and Pakistan.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Why? US sells equipment to Pakistan, but india is ready to buy US Stuff...

How many defence deals between US and another country were scuttled by India? ZERO. Now compare that with the number of defence deals between Russia and China and especially Russia and Pakistan that were stopped by India.

Russia lost billions because Indians prevented these deals from being signed. Russia was about to strike deals worth $9 Billion with Pakistan for T-90, Mig 35, Su 35 and  Pantsir. This was confirmed by the Pakistani government.

https://timesofislamabad.com/01-May-2019/pakistan-decides-to-buy-state-of-the-art-pantsir-missile-defence-system-from-russia-report

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/t-90-mig-35-pantsir-and-more-for-pakistan-as-islamabad-considers-massive-russian-arms-package

However, these wretched, villainy Indians interfered and stopped these deals. Imagine the thousands of Russians who were denied jobs because of these Indians. Imagine the thousands of Russians who were laid off because of lack of orders. These Hindus deserve to die a slow and painful death and burn in hell for all eternity.