Indian Air Force (IAF): News

That is rather rough of what you are saying. Yes, India has no right to interfere in Russia's business. But it was Russia's decision in the end not to sell to Pakistan simply because India offered to purchase more from Russia which in the end is the case - Russia has ended up selling much more than $9B to India. And continues to do so.

Instead, Russia should just start selling parts to Pakistan - RD-93 engines, Avionics and what not - stuff India doesn't use and Pakistan then can create a new jet for example that uses said components. Not much different than the JF-17 now. But make some kind of heavy fighter for Pakistan using other unused parts. In turn this brings money to Russia and production of parts initially not made, simply just samples.

GarryB wrote:So scale it up and put it in your other planes already...

Which other plane? Can't be fitted into Mig 29 or Su 30MKI. Tejas Mk1A will get them.

GarryB wrote: They seem to want to look at France and the US for their salvation at the moment...

But U.S lost several deals in India - F 18 Super Hornet; F-16; Javelin ATGM; Global Hawk. In fact Lockheed's India CEO had to quit earlier this year.

GarryB wrote:For 36 Rafales they spent 8 billion dollars... to buy 250 Rafales would cost about 55 billion... for that sort of money they could invest in the development of radar and engine technology that would make Rafale look ordinary and buy 1,000 planes to put it in.

Not sure if you know this, but both the UK and the US through their stooges in India had filed several lawsuits in Indian courts describing the deal as foul play. Till date couldn't provide any evidence. Furthermore, like I said in my previous post a more valid question could have been what are the gaps that the Su 30MKI could not fill because of which the Rafale had to be purchased? Because it's criminal on the part of the IAF to first procure 250 plus Su 30MKI and then demand a large fleet of Rafales.

GarryB wrote:The US is certainly keen to use India against China like it used China against the Soviets before. China certainly benefited from that experience and India might too. I don't think Russia wants to play such silly games as it has felt the US sanctions itself.

And by their current actions, China is only making it more easier for the US. The PLA is currently in a standoff with India, Malaysia and Indonesia. Three major clients of the Russian defence industry.

GarryB wrote:Not even close... they are just very simple radio echo sounders that detect incoming objects that quickly determine speed and direction and decide if it is going to hit the vehicle being protected and if it is to determine which fixed interception rocket would do the best job of stopping it... the angle and speed are fixed so it is a case of determining when the target is in the kill zone and launching the correct munition at the precise right time for the interception.

In that case Russia should incorporate ASEA into these APS

miketheterrible wrote:That is rather rough of what you are saying.

Meaning thousands of Russian white collared workers not having their contract renewed and subsequently laid off doesn't sound rough to you?  You probably have a fascination for those Indian pricks, I don't.

miketheterrible wrote:Yes, India has no right to interfere in Russia's business.  But it was Russia's decision in the end not to sell to Pakistan simply because India offered to purchase more from Russia which in the end is the case - Russia has ended up selling much more than $9B to India.  And continues to do so.

Obviously not. Did India purchase Mig 35, Su 35, Pantsir from Russia? How can Russia make a decision to sell and then back off? Did you contemplate that? Russia' decision not to sell to Pakistan was influenced by those thuggish, fraudster Indians. Those deals will now go to US and China.

miketheterrible wrote:Instead, Russia should just start selling parts to Pakistan - RD-93 engines, Avionics and what not - stuff India doesn't use and Pakistan then can create a new jet for example that uses said components.  Not much different than the JF-17 now.  But make some kind of heavy fighter for Pakistan using other unused parts.  In turn this brings money to Russia and production of parts initially not made, simply just samples.

And why do you assume that those Hindus will not interfere, again to stop the export of these hardware? A bunch of Hypocrites masquerading among the faithful

Russia already export engines for jf-17...

Indians always bought from Russia and France. Russia won't prevent itself selling to Pakistan because of India. They sell tge best they have to China already.

Pakistan on the other hand was sunce 1945 under US control and soviet were seen as enemy they even fought at Afg border during soviet untercention. That explains also why they never sold anything to them and why Russia never tried to let India for them. India is a big market since 1945.

Now things are changing because indians buy even from US. So Russia can sell to Pakistan what India doesn't buy so if they don't buy su-57 you couldvery well see a pakistani version in 2030. Same for armata...

India will independently develop a new carrier-based fighter

According to the Indian television company NDTV, the Indian Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), inspired by the "success" of creating the decked version of the Indian light Tejas fighter - Naval Tejas (appreciate the irony!), At a leadership meeting on May 22, 2020 with the participation of Minister of Defense Rajanat Singh and the Indian Air Force and Navy command decided to develop for the Indian aircraft carriers (Vikramaditya and the Vikrant under construction) a new twin-engine carrier-based fighter, which should be actually a twin-engine enlarged version of the Tejas. After this meeting, the Joint Naval Headquarters under the Indian Ministry of Defense sent ADA Operational Requirements to the new carrier-based fighter.

The ADA is very optimistic that the first flight of the first prototype of the new carrier-based fighter can be made in 2026, with the start of mass production by 2030, and the total cost of R&D is estimated at 7,000-8,000 crore rupees (0.93-1.1 billion dollars).

It is reported that ADA is currently investigating three options for the advance design of a promising carrier-based fighter - both a “clean” twin-engine enlarged version of the Tejas, and a variant of its layout with the introduction of the front horizontal tail.

The development of the new fighter is in line with the Indian government’s announced series of “post-war” structural reforms in the defense sector as part of the new Atmanirbhar plan, which once again aims to maximize India’s self-reliance in military production.

A radically redesigned version of the Naval Tejas Mk 2 in a twin-engine configuration (two General Electric F414 engines), lapidary designated Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF), was proposed by ADA and the Indian State Defense Research Organization DRDO in 2019.

At the same time, the development of the TEDBF was supposed to be carried out in parallel with the program launched by the Indian Navy to purchase 57 foreign twin-engine carrier-based fighters. However, now in connection with the next round of calls for "self-sufficiency", the prospects for a tender for 57 foreign carrier-based fighter aircraft look unclear - or, conversely, since there are great doubts about India’s ability to create its own carrier-based fighter aircraft by 2030.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4052266.html

Indian are an arrogant bunch but in a way that makes them look foolish.

There are arrogant and foolish people everywhere... such traits are not restricted or limited to India.

A dirt poor country, where the majority of people live from hand to mouth during most of their life.

Sounds like what the west thinks of Russia... dirt poor chaotic prison cell that everyone wants to leave...

Yet they pretend to act big while negotiating defence deals with Russia.

Without their demands they would have just bought bog standard Su-30MKs and the Su-35 wouldn't be as good as it is...

Obnoxious people like these Hindus should always be avoided by Russia.

Their cheques don't bounce... they can keep shopping all they want...

On a number of occasions these low-lifes with no class and worthless as a used rubber had forced Russia not to sell weapons to China and especially Pakistan. In the process Russia lost billions of dollars worth of lucrative contracts. Russia should make a list of weapons that China and Pakistan are interested in purchasing and take that list to India to figure out if India is willing to purchase those weapons. If not Russia should immediately sell those weapons to China and Pakistan.

You are not paying attention... I am saying India shouldn't have clauses in agreements that limit Russia as to who they can sell weapons to... in the past Russia has chosen to not sell certain things to Pakistan and China because they think it might effect sales to India... in terms of money Pakistan simply can't afford to by enough Russian gear to become interesting compared with India or even China. Selling them scraps is likely all they will get.

That is rather rough of what you are saying. Yes, India has no right to interfere in Russia's business. But it was Russia's decision in the end not to sell to Pakistan simply because India offered to purchase more from Russia which in the end is the case - Russia has ended up selling much more than $9B to India. And continues to do so.

Agreed... even if Pakistan threw away every single piece of military equipment it possesses and replaces it with Russian stuff they still wont be more interesting than India.

Which other plane? Can't be fitted into Mig 29 or Su 30MKI. Tejas Mk1A will get them.

Why. You put french and israeli stuff in those two planes... why would Russia say no to an Indian AESA radar in them instead?

Not sure if you know this, but both the UK and the US through their stooges in India had filed several lawsuits in Indian courts describing the deal as foul play. Till date couldn't provide any evidence. Furthermore, like I said in my previous post a more valid question could have been what are the gaps that the Su 30MKI could not fill because of which the Rafale had to be purchased? Because it's criminal on the part of the IAF to first procure 250 plus Su 30MKI and then demand a large fleet of Rafales.

You are assuming they want the Rafales for a reason other than they are not Russian. They originally wanted Mirage 2000s and wanted to produce them in India but France refused and demanded they buy over priced Rafales. The MMRCA programme was an elaborate ruse to get them to hand over technology and sell them cheaper but it didn't work. Rafale should never have been allowed to enter a competition it could not possibly achieve in terms of price... there was never any chance that 126 Rafales could be had for 10 billion dollars... but the pro west mafia in India couldn't be happy with Russian only planes and there is no actual British plane they could choose either, so the solution was Rafale... it was the only way to get Meteor and that stealthy cruise missile they have storm shadow or something. Except now that the Russians are perfecting scramjet motors then AAMs with long range are going to become cheap and much smaller and lighter and much more effective... even flying at mach 6 a 400km range AAM takes a while to reach its target... takes rather less time with a scramjet at twice that speed though...

And by their current actions, China is only making it more easier for the US. The PLA is currently in a standoff with India, Malaysia and Indonesia. Three major clients of the Russian defence industry.

Disagreements about the ownership of islands is not something new... most of the claimed problems the G7 have with Russia are based around current possession of a peninsula... not that different... except in this case it was the choice of the people living on that peninsula, while these islands in question are uninhabited. Sounds like a fight over resources... but what would the west know about such things....

In that case Russia should incorporate ASEA into these APS

In a sense they already have... they are very short ranged systems that can only detect targets to perhaps 100m... they don't create a detailed picture of the airspace around the vehicle... they just look for targets moving toward the tank in very simple terms with munitions covering fixed angles of approach to simplify the interception.

An aircraft type AESA radar would turn a 4 million dollar tank in to a 24 million dollar tank with 4 x 5 million dollar radar arrays scanning 360 degrees looking for targets... a bit redundant and totally excessive.

Meaning thousands of Russian white collared workers not having their contract renewed and subsequently laid off doesn't sound rough to you? You probably have a fascination for those Indian pricks, I don't.

Oh please... a good Russian engineer or factory worker would have not trouble finding work... if thousands of Russians were losing their jobs because of lost contracts I am sure the western media would be broadcasting it to everyone who would listen...

Did India purchase Mig 35, Su 35, Pantsir from Russia?

Didn't realise they were supposed to...

How can Russia make a decision to sell and then back off? Did you contemplate that? Russia' decision not to sell to Pakistan was influenced by those thuggish, fraudster Indians. Those deals will now go to US and China.

Russia makes weapons and offered them to sell... some countries are interested and some are not.... get over it.

And why do you assume that those Hindus will not interfere, again to stop the export of these hardware? A bunch of Hypocrites masquerading among the faithful

Nobody wants anyone to supply weapons to countries they perceive as enemies, but for a country that sells weapons you need a better reason than that.

That explains also why they never sold anything to them and why Russia never tried to let India for them. India is a big market since 1945.

The Russians have sold things to Pakistan... not big orders, but they have sold them stuff.

As you point out though India is a much larger market and that market is growing... which is pissing off some Americans who realise there are more people in India to buy Jim Beam and blue jeans and buy apple products...

GarryB wrote:why would Russia say no to an Indian AESA radar in them instead?

Primarily because the Mig 29UPG and the Su 30MKI are not plug and play. Russia will have to convert them to plug and play first

GarryB wrote:but the pro west mafia in India couldn't be happy with Russian only planes and there is no actual British plane they could choose either, so the solution was Rafale

Pro west mafia could not sell the F 18 or the F 16. British plane was there in the form of Typhoon. It didn't qualify because of the lack of credible ground attack weapons.

GarryB wrote:it was the only way to get Meteor and that stealthy cruise missile they have storm shadow or something. Except now that the Russians are perfecting scramjet motors then AAMs with long range

And India remains by far the largest purchaser of Russian cruise missiles and air to air missiles. I'm not even including JV projects like Brahmos. India purchased US$ 2 billion worth of missiles from Russia in 2019 itself.  

GarryB wrote:In a sense they already have... they are very short ranged systems that can only detect targets to perhaps 100m... they don't create a detailed picture of the airspace around the vehicle

Yes, but they are not AESA radars.

GarryB wrote:An aircraft type AESA radar would turn a 4 million dollar tank in to a 24 million dollar tank with 4 x 5 million dollar radar arrays scanning 360 degrees looking for targets... a bit redundant and totally excessive.

You don't have to convert every single MBT. In a tank battalion if you incorporate aircraft type AESA radar into just 1/4th of the total number of tanks that should be enough.

Then these tanks and possibly even a few BMPT that have AESA radars can carry out the surveillance part and share the composite picture with the other tanks in the battalion.

In addition the AESA fans affirm that AESA are more resistant to jamming or other electronic countermeasures...

Again I do not know if this is the case or if it is a matter of marketing. (E.g. I want the latest iPhone even if my current smartphone meet all my current and future requirements...)

Not marketing at all.

You don't know if your radar meet all the requirements because you don't know the capabilities of enemy jammers. That's what matters.

AESA is more protected against jamming than pesa or mecanical radars because it can work on different frequencies at the same time. That's a fact.

If the enemy jammers can jamm your radar, you will lose big. Egyptian sa-6 were very good but became pretty useless once israeli found out what frequency they work on and made effective jammers.

Russian AD relies a lot of ground based radar so they better be sure that Nato jammers can't jamm them totally. That's why you invest in new type of radars, datalinks, C2...

Radars/jammers are constantly evolving. It's not a question of AESA vs the other type of radars but your radars vs the enemy jammers. For now Irbis is enough but if they find out it can be jammed by nato jammers they will switch very fast for a Byelka aesa or a new type of photonic radar which will also face new type of jammers.

At end you could end up with being in need of very first type of radars because the very newest jammers are not effective against them. For exemple against stealth they found out that they needed old p-18 radars.

If all the armies go for photonic radars and jammers then a mecanical radar from the 70s will be very good because they will be focused on the photonic spectre of detection and it would very expebsive to switch for the radar spectre of signal...

No, Irbis wont be jammed simply and they will switch it to some AESA.  They never did that cause they are smarter than that.  They never did that with ANY of their radar systems.  That just not how it works.

They just adjust the subsystems that allows countermeasures and ways to absorb the hit of the EW systems.  Have you heard of ECM and ECCM?  That is what that is.

Biggest example is the Zaslon radar of the MiG-31. Once the enemy figured out what there was for it thanks to that pos defector, all they did was made some adjustments to the radar itself - changed some of the internal electronics. Now they did that again with Zalson AM which is far better than initial Zalson.

Primarily because the Mig 29UPG and the Su 30MKI are not plug and play. Russia will have to convert them to plug and play first

I think you are confusing the concept of plug and play.

Plug and Play means you upload the driver software so the computer will recognise the hardware you are about to plug in to the system. Its features. Its capabilities. What information and power and data it needs from the computer (aircraft) and what information and data it generates and transmits back to the computer/aircraft.

If you are plug and play adding an AESA radar it means that you can just upload the driver, take off the existing radar and put your new radar on and it will work seamlessly.

If the MiG-29UPG and Su-30MKI are not plug and play... which we assume they are not, then you have to install some new hardware interface equipment to convert the data and signals from the new radar in a way that the aircraft thinks it is the old radar... but more powerful and longer ranged...

The thing is that even with plug and play an AESA radar is going to need a shed load more power and rather more efficient cooling systems too, and likely the bandwidth of data coming from the radar will be dramatically increased because of the larger volume of airspace it can cover.

But that is OK... if they integrated French and Israeli avionics to the aircraft there should not be any problems integrating Indian AESA radars... India developed the AESA and the Russians designed and built the planes so together both parts should be known inside out.

Pro west mafia could not sell the F 18 or the F 16. British plane was there in the form of Typhoon. It didn't qualify because of the lack of credible ground attack weapons.

The F-18 and F-16 are older than the MiG-29, and the Typhoon is only partly British... meaning components from countries that could block India from getting it...

As I said the whole programme was made up to reduce the asking price for the Rafale and it really didn't work.

And India remains by far the largest purchaser of Russian cruise missiles and air to air missiles. I'm not even including JV projects like Brahmos. India purchased US$ 2 billion worth of missiles from Russia in 2019 itself.

I honestly think India should focus more on an IADS and a joint venture for long range AAMs with Russia using scramjet motors. They are already looking at hypersonic Brahmos II which means scramjet motors anyway...

Who else internationally would work with India on scramjet motors? Who else even could?

Yes, but they are not AESA radars.

But they are. They are electronically scanned because the components can't physically move and each element scans a volume of space individually.

Think of it as an IR detector for a security system... most have one big IR element looking for moving heat sources... they don't care where the burglar is... they just want to know something is moving there... it would be no good for an APS because the APS system needs to know where the threat is and what direction it is coming from so it can intercept it. Imagine an IR detector with 1,000 elements each covering a sector of the room... the elements that detect the heat source can be used to determine precisely in that room where the threat happens to be. With an APS sensor it is active radar... it sends out a weak radar signal and can detect the reflections from within 100m... so the fixed element that detect the incoming target can determine the angle of the incoming threat and the radio signal return gives range and the dopplar effect on the signal gives speed... that is an AESA radar except it doesn't scan as such... it radiates all the time...

You don't have to convert every single MBT. In a tank battalion if you incorporate aircraft type AESA radar into just 1/4th of the total number of tanks that should be enough.

But why? It would be incredibly expensive but totally pointless... why are MBTs not fitted with aircraft radar now?

A MBT doesn't care about a plane flying 100km away... and most helos will fly too low to be detected reliably more than 5-6km away... it is like suggesting putting 1m thick armour on aircraft... stop any modern AAM or SAM from shooting it down and air defence guns would be useless too...

Then these tanks and possibly even a few BMPT that have AESA radars can carry out the surveillance part and share the composite picture with the other tanks in the battalion.

Picture of what?

Radar at ground level is terrible for picking up ground targets... most radars on ground vehicles are for detecting incoming artillery or enemy aircraft like on SPAAGs and SAMs.

For self defence the existing types are relatively cheap and simple and do what is needed to get the job done.

As an example the AESA radar in development for the MiG35 will have worse detection capability (just because it is smaller and less powerful (there is no space for a bigger one and also because the engine cannot provide more energy.....)).

Jet engines are often fitted with equipment to take power from the engine... jet engines have shafts on which the blades or disks are mounted... connecting those to electric motors effectively becomes a generator... the amount of power you can generate is determined by that generator and it is pretty clear the old generators were not designed for modern AESA radars and a full Avionics suite, but it is not impossible to create a new more powerful generator... or one for each engine.

AESA and PESA radars have very small sidelobes which makes jamming difficult.

AESA is more protected against jamming than pesa or mecanical radars because it can work on different frequencies at the same time. That's a fact.

PESA radars can operate in different frequencies within its operational bandwidth... and with electronic scanning can simultaneously scan down at ground targets in frequencies suitable for detecting and tracking ground targets while at the same time scan level and upwards in frequencies suitable for tracking air targets, or checking weather conditions and air moisture content....

An AESA radar has thousands of individual radar emitters that can modulate different frequencies and wave forms, and each emitter has noise filters so the information an AESA radar generates is already clean before it gets to the computers for processing and display... but having all those electronics means it also gets very hot very quickly so most IR seeking missiles that are tail chasers will be able to hit you nose on if you are using your radar.

If the enemy jammers can jamm your radar, you will lose big. Egyptian sa-6 were very good but became pretty useless once israeli found out what frequency they work on and made effective jammers.

Jammers are not always 100% effective... you know the frequency your radar operates at so you know the jamming frequency... having the ability to launch your missiles to home on a jamming signal is an obvious solution... once the jammers are destroyed... continue as usual.

What the Russians did was give it an optical backup channel to allow the battery to engage the enemy jammers.

The SA-6 also had one radar vehicle for each battery so when the radar vehicle was hit with a Shrike or HARM then F16s with dumb bombs could come in and destroy the now defenceless launchers.

SA-11 has guidance radars on each vehicle and optical backup to remedy that.

Russian AD relies a lot of ground based radar so they better be sure that Nato jammers can't jamm them totally. That's why you invest in new type of radars, datalinks, C2...

HATO doesn't have that many jamming platforms... most of which will be targeted by long range SAM very early on and taken out. Russia mixes a range of sources of target information within it IADS, and most radar are mobile or part of a protected SAM battery.

Jamming works both ways too of course.

For now Irbis is enough but if they find out it can be jammed by nato jammers they will switch very fast for a Byelka aesa or a new type of photonic radar which will also face new type of jammers.

New radars are more expensive, but would be justified if it was found current radars couldn't get the job done. Clearly they think they have time to make their other options better before putting them in service.

If all the armies go for photonic radars and jammers then a mecanical radar from the 70s will be very good because they will be focused on the photonic spectre of detection and it would very expebsive to switch for the radar spectre of signal...

You are assuming there is a way to jam a photonic radar. I suspect they will have trouble jamming it if they can't make their own yet...

GarryB wrote: I honestly think India should focus more on an IADS and a joint venture for long range AAMs with Russia using scramjet motors. They are already looking at hypersonic Brahmos II which means scramjet motors anyway...

Who else internationally would work with India on scramjet motors?

In terms of technology India brings NOTHING to the table. Why should Russia share such critical technology with India and earn huge losses in the process? Russia doesn't need their investment either.

Indians never made any meaningful contribution to Brahmos. Brahmos II is basically Zircon.

As and when Russia develops long range AAMs they can at best sell an export version to India. But given the third world mentality of Indians, they will haggle over the price for eternity.

In terms of technology India brings NOTHING to the table. Why should Russia share such critical technology with India and earn huge losses in the process? Russia doesn't need their investment either.

That is the problem with the racist mindset... white people are smart and black people are dumb, and Russia is white so it has nothing to learn from India.

The thing is that Russia is probably the whitest country on the planet, yet so many Russians look to europe or the US for technology and development...

They are already working with India on scramjet engines for the Brahmos II project so adding air to air missiles would only be beneficial for Russia and India.

India brings demands for higher standards and better products, which alone is valuable to any programme.

They would also logically invest money and brains into the process too.

There are clever engineers all round the world... shown pretty clearly by the US trip to the moon and the US programme to develop nuclear bombs... both relied heavily on foreigners... not all of which were white.

Indians never made any meaningful contribution to Brahmos. Brahmos II is basically Zircon.

Brahmos upgraded the electronics and guidance of the Yakhont and added land attack capability too, which Russia seemed to think was important because they applied the changes to their Onyx missiles quickly enough. To be clear Brahmos was an upgrade of the export version of Onyx called Yakhont... if the further development of Brahmos was of no value then why bother modifying Onyx at all?

As and when Russia develops long range AAMs they can at best sell an export version to India. But given the third world mentality of Indians, they will haggle over the price for eternity.

Doing it your way means Russia has to fund the upgrade and India just buys it off the shelf with no contribution to development and probably a good price too.

The way I am suggesting, they invest in development and get the missiles they want probably along with the licence to produce them.

Russia can add what they develop to their own programmes... the ramjet powered R-77 was cancelled because the amount of time it would take to get right and reliable... they could have developed a scramjet powered model with much better performance... a scramjet model could double the flight speed of a ramjet or rocket motor powered model which means greatly extending range and performance using a fundamentally similar but better engine.

The problems and goals are similar... imagine developing a rifle right now... would you invest in making a matchlock first and then with that experience go for a nice flinklock, or would you accept a superior technology has been developed already... do you design the steel or brass case ammo or leap forward with plastic case ammo or caseless ammo or a binary liquid propellent weapon that is far more ambitious...

GarryB wrote:Brahmos upgraded the electronics and guidance of the Yakhont and added land attack capability too, which Russia seemed to think was important because they applied the changes to their Onyx missiles quickly enough.

Adding land attack capability to Yakhont was not deemed important for the Russian Navy. Russia already had 3M14K and 3M14T . In the near future Kalibr M will be inducted into the Russian Navy.

Foreign buyers of Yakhont might want land attack capability added to it.

Adding land attack capability to Yakhont was not deemed important for the Russian Navy. Russia already had 3M14K and 3M14T . In the near future Kalibr M will be inducted into the Russian Navy.

Foreign buyers of Yakhont might want land attack capability added to it.

Well that is interesting you suggest that because land attack Onyx missiles have been used in Syria against land based targets already... and of course to add land attack capability to Yakhont would require Indian permission, which would likely depend on the customer. Just like sales of Brahmos would also require Indias permission.

They paid for the tech to be developed they share ownership of the technology. Russia can use it for itself on Onyx and other missiles like Granit and Vulcan etc etc, but cannot export it without Indian permission.

Great for Russia, and for customers who want that feature they can pay to develop their own version like India did.

Just saw that Vietnam has bought its su-30mk2 for 40 million$ unit price.

With jammer pods it can be as good as the indian MKI which cost 75 million $. The MK2 variant comes from the second family of su-30 and Mki from the other.

With a Pero radar (190km) better than the mki's radar it would be the perfect low cost flanker. India should buy some of them for its MMRCA. 124 jets without local production and foreign stuff would cost them less than 5 billion $. Russia may build 24 or more per year so they would get all of them quickly.

They already operate the su-30 and that would increase their fleet to almost 450 su-30.

But they wont because of two reasons... it is sensible and therefore noone making the decision would make a lot on a bribe, and the Su-30MKK is the version made for China...

GarryB wrote:But they wont because of two reasons... it is sensible and therefore noone making the decision would make a lot on a bribe, and the Su-30MKK is the version made for China...

Su-30MKK is older than mk2 and doesn't have the Pero radar. Mk2 is better and indians could ask for same engines as their mki which shouldn't increase the cost. They can even ask for the same radar or the irbis and al35 engines.

The price can be kept low if they don't ask for ToT, local production and foreign stuff.

We saw how hurry they were to buy quuckly more su-30 and mig-29 after the clash with China/ Pakistan. Bribe is done when they are not in hurry. Right now they need 124 fighter quickly and a 40 million $ su-30 is the best option.

Bars M radar is better.  Initial performance was 140km but bars R which is similar but modified for Russian use is upwards to about 250km.

$40m per jet is peanuts for a exported Su-30.

miketheterrible wrote:Bars M radar is better.  Initial performance was 140km but bars R which is similar but modified for Russian use is upwards to about 250km.

$40m per jet is peanuts for a exported Su-30.

India doesn't have the Bars-R. They only have the original M. Or am I wrong ?

Pero offers 190km against fighters which is enough for a cheap su30. That allows the use of RVV SD at max range against any chinese or pakistani fighter.

But again I doubt the price would increase if they ask for Bars-R. It is still better than their mki at almost 80 million $.

What I am saying is that Bars-R is a Bars-M russified (meaning no Intel processor used, etc). I am not sure about all of the MKI's but a lot of them are Bars-M now which means they have similar performance (upwards to 250km 2m^2 target).

Irbis would be way better but probably more expensive. The Pero radar hasn't been seen in a while. If it is still being tested or produced then I imagine it has undergone upgrades since 2008. Probably better range than the presumed 190km as well. And due to its antenna system, should be cheaper to produce as well.

Who knows. There is so much sensitive information on such devices we may never know. But I would like to see more of this Pero in modern structure.

Considering the situation 40 million per plane is very cheap and they would be silly not to really think about it...

But equally MiG has probably be offering MiG-29M2 with Indian production for that price too... it seems they are not interested in affordable and numbers aircraft... MiG-29M2 would have much lower operating costs yet even the bog standard one is fully multirole with air to air and air to ground capability far exceeding any MiG-21 or MiG-27 or Jaguar upgrade, and also having a commonality of design and parts none of those three types can match... the airframe is unified with the MiG-35 so they would be right for any new carrier aircraft... it would be the sort of plane they could produce in large numbers and actually make very affordable...

But instead they spend 8.5 billion on 36 Rafales... don't get me wrong... Rafales are nice planes of rather good apparent performance, but when you are replacing large numbers of obsolete aircraft while trying to maintain numbers and picking border fights with two neighbour... one of which is now considered at least an economic super power and the other neighbour has the tacit support of a military superpower (ie China and Pakistan respectively) then you need to be much more sensible and practical when spending defence money.

Su-30MK2 use N001VEP radar, which have 350 km max range and could see 3 m² RCS at 150 km. It's not much worse than Bars-M in Su-30MKI as both could engage 4 targets simultaneously. Difference is in peak power as N001 VEP have 6 kW peak power, while export Bars-M have 4,5 kW peak power. EGSP-6A transmitter from Bars-M could work with 7 kW peak power and most probably russian Bars-R work with full power of 7 kW together with other changes and russifications, which made bars-R more capable than export Bars-M. Question is, if foreign (western) electronics in Su-30MKI could allow instalation of different more capable radar as it doesn't have indian and other imported components inside.

Other advantage of Su-30MK2 is, that it have original IFDL and other data links for group working and sharing information and more capable Pastel RWR to program anti-radar missiles. As we could see on Chinese Su-30MK2, they could easily install their own weapons, including very capable PL-15 AAM. Only advantage of Indian Su-30MKI is in TVC engines.

There is an advantage having the 100 km additional range even if you can't strike them that far.  N001VEP is outdated and outgunned. Hence why Su-30SM used Bars R due to its clear advantage of being able to see upwards to 250km for a fighter sized target.  150km isn't suitable for such a large jet anymore.

Bars M is apparently not far off either. Maybe 200km range for a fighter sized target. These are something former user TR1 pointed out and had Russian article and screenshots of from years ago.

Best option now is to provide Irbis radar for it or a more advanced pero radar.

The advantage of seeing 100km more is of little use if your datalink sucks and you don't have the weapons to use that advantage.

Chinese j11/15/16 and su-30s have a rcs of around 15m2 so any radar will spot them at max range anyway. But chinese are working on pl15 with double the range of indian missiles.

Su-30 can come with any radar you want. There is the VEP with 150km range but also the VEP+Pero antenna with 190km range. Bars are also proposed. And even the ones from mig fighters can be scaled up for flankers. It's up to the client to choose. And of course they will try to get the best so Irbis E.