Indian Air Force (IAF): News

What are the various technologies from the Mig 35, Su 35 that can be integrated on the Indian Mig 29UPG?

I would expect most of it but the result wont be the same. It is like taking a model T and putting a brand new motor and brakes and music system in it... the physical size and shape and in this case aerodynamics will count against the older design in terms of what the upgraded model can do.

With the MiG-29 and the new MiG-29 design, the new design allows for a lot more fuel to be carried in places that previously could not contain anything, so lots of empty space can be more efficiently used and the fuel fraction is much higher leading to better flight range and endurance figures.

Russia has not made any such offer for upgrade.

They likely want you to upgrade to MiG-29M/2 or preferably MiG-35 or a mix of both... in the same way France wanted India to buy Rafales, instead of the Mirage 2000s that they wanted to buy and locally produce and upgrade for themselves.

Maybe that's why, India is spending US$ 125 million for a Su 30MKI and US$ 50 million for a Mig 29.

And between the Su-30MKI and MiG-29 in performance sits the Rafale which they paid 8.4 billion to buy 36... which works out at just over 233 million per airframe.

Talk of LEASING Hornets for 15 billion... that would be what... a couple of flights... maybe 24 or 36 planes to begin with...

Yeah, that really just confirms what I said... 50 million is cheap for a modern medium weight fighter.

Indian pilots are nowhere as well trained as USAF pilots or maybe even Russian AF pilots. That's one reason why India opts for tandem seat fighter aircrafts like the Su 30MKI.

They managed to surprise US pilots during exercises... don't confuse situational awareness with pilot training.  A pilot that does not know they are under attack and gets shot down can happen to any pilot no matter what level of training and capability they have, while even an amateur with AWACS and JSTARS support in a modern well armed and well equipped and well supported fighter against some tiny country operating older fighters whose radars are not operating properly because the country has been under sanctions for 10 years and there is no radar or radio support... or if there is it is being jammed.

That being said the PLA-Air Force doesn't have much experience of war fighting either. What they have in their favor (compared to India) are far more fighter aircraft and SAM systems.

Numbers makes a difference in a long drawn out conflict, but most modern weapon systems can deal with numbers. Standing up and walking slowly towards the enemy trenchline in large numbers was not a safe thing to do despite your commanding officers telling you it is OK they are all dead from that artillery barrage... the reality is that they are waiting for you to get close before they machine gun you...

Having large numbers can give you a confidence that really is misplaced... especially against an enemy that knows what they are doing and are ruthless.

Even the 20 odd Mig 29s that India is buying are mothballed Mig 29s. Does Russia even have 100 plus Mig 29s that they can sell? Doubt that.

They should have quite a lot as they have been replacing them with Su-30s, but I think he meant they should buy the new MiG-29M/2s new build.... a better platform to base further upgrades on with newer and more sophisticated design and assembly.

They could probably order 200 of them for less than the 8.4 billion they paid for 36 Rafales...

Later on they could easily upgrade them to MiG-35 level because they use the same airframe. Further work on the LMFS 5th gen new stealth fighter will involve new technology and systems and avionics... and most likely it will be tested and used on the MiG-35 first, so the MiG-35 will become like the Su-35... a sort of test bed for -5 technologies... but obviously without the stealth.

For launching missiles you don't need experience.

When your air defence system is working properly, they just fly to where they are guided to fly to (ie position in space and direction and speed) and launch a specific missile at a specific target and prepare to fire again if needed or engage the next target if it works...

But getting to that situation costs money that few countries will spend money to achieve... for most HATO countries they have that but a fast interceptor with a long range AAM can scare away the AWACS aircraft that provide that capability and they have to start doing more of the work for themselves... which makes it much harder.

They still produce mig-29M.

For a big enough order they would probably let them make them themselves.... but that is going to triple the price of the aircraft.

The trend seems to be local production of Russian planes because even tripling their price they still remain affordable, but with western fighters... it would be cheaper just to hand out bundles of US 10,000 dollars to a group of 20,000 Indians and you still save 33 million on the price of ONE Rafale made in France.

To be clear 10,000 dollars times 20,000 is only 200 million... which is less than the 233 million they paid for each Rafale...

Perhaps it would be better to change policy and just try local manufacture of things that India could eventually produce efficiently and cheaply and then export to other countries in volume and get a real return on their investment instead of just making weapons to defend their country more expensive.

Using the MiG-29M2 airframe for a start they can change between single and two seat as they please.

A second issue is that a MiG-29M2 fitted with all the upgrades applied to the MiG-29UPG will be able to carry substantially more internal fuel.

There are other minor differences that will reduce RCS and improve manouver performance too.

The only fighter jet that can give India an advantage against China and Pakistan is F-35

This is a shining example of a kool-aid logic.

To be sure, India does not have any option to quickly increase the number of fighters.

But who is to blame for that?

The MRCA programme they started because they wanted Rafales cheaper than what they were offering them for took 10 years and they gave the win to an aircraft that didn't meet the fundamental criteria of the programme... there was never any chance of getting 126 Rafales for 10 billion dollars even if they were all made in France super cheap.

They could order planes from another country without shit about local assembly or local or foreign components added, but why would they start doing that now?

If India wants to order 500 MiG-29M/2s with 250 coming from Russian production and 250 made in India in the factories that were making MiG-29s they could have a useful force of fighters with good performance... they could drop their medium stealth fighter project and their light stealth fighter project and work with MiG on the LMFS project.

U.S realizes that. That's why they are offering F-18 Super Hornet on lease.

Hornets will be very expensive and when the lease expires you have to pay for them again or they get taken back and you have nothing.

The 21 old Mig 29s that India is purchasing is going to cost US$ 50 million a piece.

They might be from different batches and need different upgrades and levels of work and it is only 21... of course it wont be as cheap as ordering new build aircraft in larger volumes under a normal contract.

Plus you seem to be uninterested in the Fulcrum so make a bit of money because of the situation India has put itself in.

India probably could have said with the MRCA programme that the joint winners were the MiG-29M/2 and the Rafale... the cost of the latter means we will buy only 36 of them and the other 90 aircraft we wanted could be MiG-29M2s because they are more affordable, and over time we can upgrade them to MiG-35s if we want to or need to.

BTW an order of 500 MiG-29M2s would allow all the MiG-21s and MiG-27s and Jaguars and old model MiG-29s to all be replaced with an aircraft you are familiar with that has had a few problems solved on it like flight range, while unifying what used to be four different aircraft types with one consistent platform that is all net centric and rather better than the 21 in air to air combat, while also being better than the 27 and Jaguar in strike roles and light ground attack missions in an aircraft with one engine type replacing the one in the MiG-21 and the one in the MiG-27 and the two in the Jaguar with one unified model that is also used in your navys MiG-29KR...

Klimov was supposedly working on a new 5th gen engine for the LMFS in the 12 ton thrust class but with an RD-33 type footprint... a large purchase of MiG aircraft and investment from India could allow India to move forward and also add money to make the LMFS better too... In a very similar way that Indian funding and demands regarding the Su-30MKI led to the Su-35 and some features of the Su-57... I think Indian pushing for more and better led to more and better for Sukhoi products across the board.

Yes, but MIG 29M will not come with any major upgrades in avionics. At best a Russian AESA radar.

The amount you are spending on it why would you expect to be handed super all powerful technology that will make you omnipotent?

Perhaps if you buy some and fund development you might speed up that development and even get a say in the direction some of that development takes...

Or you can buy Rafales for almost five times more.

Egypt paid 43 million for mig-29M. Indians are stupid and all their aircraft cost more than they should. Su-30MKM/MK2 cost also 40-50 usually. Only MKI is more than 70 million. Rafale cost 220 when it should be 90. Tejas 80 when it should be 30.

India make their planes more expensive by adding rather expensive foreign components and also wanting to build them for themselves, which just triples the cost normally. (note does not always improve performance though...)

Mig-29M avionics are better than your 2020 Tejas. Why upgrade them with AESA. SU-30MKI needs AESA and powerfull missiles because its the main fighter. Mig-29 are there to help them so they can be used for bombing/interception/ patrol. If they had only Migs I would understand the need for the best technology inside them but they are not.

X2

If they want it with top stuff they always buy mig-35 which will also be cheaper than all other jets.

And they could buy both, which means they can get their numbers and performance and externally the enemy really wont be able to tell the difference till it is too late.

As I have suggested in the past they can buy 300 planes... 250 MiG-29M2s as the numbers plane and 50 MiG-35s and they can use them for 3-5 years and work out what works and what does not, what is worth the extra money and what is not... and then update the 250 MiG-29M2s with the more expensive bits of the MiG-35 that actually make a difference and are worth the extra price.... you would then end up with 300 MiG-35s with all the best bits and most cost effective bits... that feedback could be used by MiG to develop a MiG-35 upgrade and a MiG-29M2 upgrade that makes them better while keeping the costs down.

They don't have the deep pockets that US and China has. Ergo, they can't

Not really true... they paid more for each of their 36 Rafales than the Americans paid for any individual F-35 fighter so far... of course they are not fixed and fully operational yet...

Mig 29M avionics are inferior to even F 18 Super Hornet leave alone F 35.

Who told you that?

Indians with a shoe string budget cannot afford to buy cutting edge avionics technologies.

So you are saying they can't afford SH or F-35s?

I agree.... because no country can afford them.

Another reminder how corrupt your country is.

Upgraded to the standard their current MiGs level, which is as good as any F-16 really.

We build almost everything ourselves.

You would be surprised...

But tell me how can that be when all your companies shifted production off shore to take advantage of cheaper labour in China et al?

India's defense industry is a massive failure. This explains why 70 per cent of your hardware is imported. India remains a cesspool of corruption, backwardness - social, cultural and economic with no hope for salvation in sight.

A situation endemic in the third world that has been encouraged and promoted by white european colonial powers for the last 400 years or so...

The only fighter jet that can give India an advantage against China and Pakistan is F-35. You only need about 2 squadrons of these along with the other aircraft that India has in its inventory to deter both China and Pakistan. No need to import Mig 29s that are already obsolete. Think straight instead of relying on your kool-aid logic.

The F-35 is a one trick pony... stealth... strip that away... which already seems to have happened and it is an over priced heavy, slow, short ranged, F-16 with poorer manouverability and fewer weapons options... and an F-16 is just a really expensive single engined MiG-29.

Even US don't want the f-35. Why would anyone other buy it ?

The US has already banned Turkey from operating F-35 and S-400 in one force... India has already ordered S-400, so F-35 is not an option anyway... unless they are happy for India to operate F-35 and S-400 together and not Turkey... who was part of the consortium and was making wing parts for F-35s for everyone...

India's only option now is to develop Predator type drones. Similar drones have already been developed by DRDO, they should be armed with a few air to air missiles and a few air to surface to air missiles. This is the only viable, cost effective option that India has.

Even Iran has developed drones that can fire air to air missiles.

Yep, they decided they wanted drones and ten minutes later they had the worlds best... or not.

Iran also used jamming equipment to force a super expensive high tech American drone to crash land on their territory so they could capture it and study it... which suggests going for armed fighter drones for your defence might not be the smartest idea.

Drones can certainly carry air to air missiles and all sorts of other weapons too, but how effective have they been in combat to date?

Are you willing to risk that they might be OK, just because you think they might be cheap.

I don't wish to be mean but has the past Indian military spending choices... local production, expensive Israeli and French components put in Russian aircraft to make what would be cheaper aircraft much more expensive, and of course Rafale purchases at eye watering prices... not to mention Apaches and C-17s and Chinooks... all of which were seriously over priced... ironically the only deal they seem to complain about are the Russian deals... an operational carrier with a flight of new build modern fighters for 2.4 billion is a bargain in comparison to 36 Rafale fighters for 8.4 billion...

But you think India can make drones cheaply and in huge numbers... Turkey can't... Iran and China essentially had little choice...

Mig 29s lying unused in Russia that will be upgraded to UPG level.

That is right, that is what I said... previously built MiG-29s of unknown internal condition essentially needing their guts taken out and replaced with SMT+ level equipment and systems, but the airframes will have to be checked for microcracks and any other issues of sitting still for a very long time.

What are those super all powerful technologies that have been offered that India is unwilling to purchase? If the offer for such technologies has not been made how will India purchase?

You are demanding AESA radar and at the same time complaining that it costs 50 million an aircraft... I am sure if you were paying 233 million an airframe they would put anything you ask in there.

Do the Rafales come with hookers?

There are hardly any avionics on board the Mig 29M that is not present on the Tejas Mk1A.

The vendors that produce avionics for MiGs have been working together for quite a number of decades now, so I am assuming it all works seemlessly, and there will be no issues of sanctions... say when S-400s start to be delivered to India later this year.

why would you suggest that the avionics on board Tejas are inferior to Mig 29M?

If Tejas was better than the MiG-29M then why is India ordering 21 MiG-29s to upgrade to a standard below the MiG-29M?

Surely they would be wanting to install the Tejas avionics into their MiG-29UPGs...

Mig-29M was started in 80 and ready in 90s. Then they remade the aircraft to mig-29Kr level. And are now finishing the mig-35 program.

The MiG-29M that flew in 1988 is totally different from the current MiG-29M.

The original MiG-29M never entered service, just like the original Su-27M didn't either and is unrelated to the Su-35 too.

The MiG-29M and MiG-29M2 first flew in 2002 and are new designs... easily distinguishable from earlier models because they have the canopy of a two seat aircraft... all of them do... the MiG-29M, the MiG-29M2... and you can change between each type by manually removing the extra fuel tank and putting in the cockpit displays and extra seat, or removing them and putting in an extra fuel tank, the MiG-29KR and the MiG-35 both of which are the same... single seat and dual seat interchangable.

All old model MiGs were either single seat aircraft with a single seat canopy, or the non operational two seat MiG-29UB which can be distinguished by having a tiny range only radar and unable to operate radar guided weapons.

In other words two seat canopy... whether single seat or twin seat and a full sized radar means it is a new fighter.

Other features include a sharp edge leading edge root extension with extra flaps in the wing roots and the airbrake is at the rear between the tails rather than on the spine on earlier models.

That's a total failure. The plane isn't bad at the end but the program is.

I think it still has potential as a cheap simple light aircraft that can be made in huge numbers... but as I say... mission creep and pride make them want AESA radar and expensive this and expensive that so they can show off, but the MiG-21 was never intended for that... it was a numbers plane that had good performance, high top speed that was rarely achieved because flying at top speed takes time and burns a lot of fuel and kills your flight range which was never high to begin with. It was however a cheap and simple weapons platform that could deliver weapons on target quickly and easily.

Tejas just needs to be like that... modern, modular, cheap to make and upgrade over time as new technology gets affordable.

Right now AESA radars are not cheap but over time as more and more platforms use AESA radar the production of those elements will massively increase, the quality will improve, the cost per element will drop, and the software and systems driving them will become much better and more efficient and you might start getting radars mounted on all sorts of things that don't normally use them... like at shooting ranges and on artillery guns to check trajectories in real time...

The Tejas should be a light manouverable bomb truck like the F-16 was for a while... it doesn't need to be some super fighter that clears the skies of enemy aircraft.... but together with some Rafales and some Su-30MKIs they will fill gaps and offer excellent air coverage of India and protect her from any threats.

There is also room there for drones but being largely expendable drones are support and not the primary defence.

I think the Tejas has conceptually a lot of potential even as a cheap simple fighter that pairs with a cheap simple unmanned drone.

Honestly I would take out the single very powerful engine and replace it with two smaller cheaper engines to make the aircraft more affordable and simpler... it might damage its fuel efficiency and reduce range but you could probably get a lot more thrust from two less powerful engines and end up with a better fighter.

They didn't let Turkey have the F-35s they bought because Turkey bought S-400.

Well India is buying Russian planes like Su-30MKIs and MiG-29s and it has also bought S-400...

I realise American politicians are two face lying but even they couldn't get away with trying to sell F-35s to India.

And if they did it would only be in desperation to get rid of the damn things...

If India wants to defend itself with decent SAMs like S-400 then it wont be able to buy large amounts of US gear, because the US has made clear they can't have both.

Note also to be clear Russia has never objected to any Indian purchase of American stuff... they offer their gear and let India decide what it wants without demands or threats... it is almost like they think India knows what it is doing and can make decisions for itself...

Indigenous or not that is about pride and they are pissing away a lot of money and a lot of time for that pride.

Pride doesn't help in war time.

What India needs to do is pull finger and solve its problems in the military sector... they need to either standardise or work harder on full integration because having Israeli weapons and Russian weapons and French weapons and American weapons that are separate and don't work together is a disadvantage and a serious problem in real combat.

If Israel can help get them to integrate all their equipment to work together that is fine but if they can't then it would be better to just buy all their air force units and armour from the same vendor and make it their problem to sort out.

India is acting like a country that has different cities with different brands of police cars... some want BMWs and some want Kamaz and others want Fords while others want French things... if the police forces in each city or each jurisdiction can't work together the criminals will take advantage of that and make you look silly... Pakistan and China are not stupid.

Spending 20 years trying to buy 126 medium fighters and quibbling over the prices means even when it is sorted out... now you need another 200 planes because more are retiring or the situation has changed and there are more enemy planes on that border area.

The focus is on shiny fast expensive fighter planes... which is useless when they have not support and management backup to help it operate... and cooperate with other Indian aircraft in the area of operations.

Their problem is not that they don't make all their weapons themselves, their problem is that they want to make things themselves that are clearly not up to standard and create weaknesses.

It would not matter if India got all its weapons from one vendor.... the fact is that despite all its claims for diversity it gets about 60-70% of its military stuff from Russia, but they don't spend 60-70% of their budget on Russian weapons... more like 20-30%... because the 30-40% of foreign stuff is much more expensive and bought in much smaller batches.

They are thinking about buying influence by paying top dollar for French and American stuff... but when was the last time America or France stood up to help India?

When was the last time the Russians and Soviets did.

There is a clear history there that they seem to ignore, but I understand... I am sure the expensive gifts and high class hookers the deals with France and the US come with make it worth it for those making the decisions, but it is costing India their defence... and in the case of the US it will force them into open hostilities with China that is going to prevent either China or India from growing and developing into a great power.

BRICS is about making each country great and independent... it is not about one country (Russian or China) throwing a net over other potentially growing economies and countries and trying to control them.

The agreement between the US and Japan and Australia and India is all about the US controlling a coalition with the focus on China... I understand what the US gets out of it. Japan and Australia were domesticated a long time ago. But India... why.