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    Talking bollocks thread

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:54 am

    I've read it in the original Russian, he talked about the higher cost of new Armata.
    But if they don't sell them abroad for $, the plant & the gov. that owns it won't get any reimbursement, whatever the order costs r!
    Foreign orders r badly needed to defray of the costs of R&D + production. They don't export much else besides oil & gas; but prices for those r not that great now!
    China reportedly bought [only] 24 Su-35 fighter jets for US$2 billion ..in 2015, and Russia completed delivery of the planes by the end of last year. http://www.atimes.com/article/pla-scrambles-su-35s-j-20s-s-china-sea-us-navy-sails/
    That's $83M,333,333.3333 per plane. They had to settle for that or it could be no deal at all; & India stopped buying Russian systems.

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    Militarov

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  Militarov on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:10 am

    miketheterrible wrote:An armata tank is about $4M per tank. That was also considered as too much thus Russian MoD forced prices down.

    No, Russians don't use USD in Russia or convert it daily, ignore militarovs trolling about it. All prices are in Rubles. So its rather meaningless to use it in USD terms.

    Just validate it by how much Russia spends on jets or other equipment, and you will get an idea. Cost of a program is separate since mod funded it at first, unless it's MiG-35 or Su-35

    Last contract of 48 Su-35's was roughly $27M per aircraft. In Rubles it was 60B roubles.

    I spend 3 months every year, last 6 years in Russia. I live with Russian citizen 6 months a year. Closest to Russia you have been is Vodka shelf in local market. So excuse me.

    Everyone keeps savings in USD there, Euro is almost unexisting except big banknotes in most banks and exchange offices, yet USD is widespread as it gets.

    Stop calling everything you do not like trolling, makes you look retarded to say at least.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:50 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:Even if components & gear r being produced for the Lider, it doesn't mean they will be installed on it & not on other ships. So, to me at least, until its hull is under construction, the Lider isn't being built & remains a paper ship!
    The Navy again turned out to be stepdaughter
    The renewal of the naval staff of the Russian Navy is unacceptably slow
    http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2018-02-09/2_983_red.html
    What and what does the russian army and air force have to show for snatching up the funds needed by the navy? Kurganets, Su-57, and Armata aren't coming earlier or in larger numbers.

    The Ministry of Defense plans to purchase 200 tanks annually
    http://www.ng.ru/news/607632.html?print=Y


    The majority of the in-service tanks are of the T-72 and T-90 variants, including 564 modernised T-72B3 tanks (according to Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu), and 300 T-90 tanks. The modernised T-72B3 tanks are gradually replacing the other varieties, at a rate of 300 tanks per year. ..
    The goal is to unify the types of tanks as much as possible in order to reduce maintenance costs. The modernisation of T-72 tanks costs 50 million rubles (962,000 dollars) each.
    According to unofficial sources, the cost per [Armata] tank is approximately 400 million rubles [$6,853,518.16 US at today's rate], which is more than double that of the German Leopard-2 and about 60-75% higher than that of the French Leclerc and US M-1 Abrams. Yuri Borisov, the deputy defence minister responsible for procurement, has indicated that the cost is about 2.5 times higher [or $17,133,795.4] than stated in the State Armaments Programme.
    As a result, the Defence Ministry is expecting to reduce the number of Armata tanks it will procure, focusing instead on continuing to modernise existing T-72 tanks in the medium term. According to Russian media reports, Uralvagonzavod has agreed to lower some Armata costs, but the programme will still be expensive.
    https://russiamil.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/armata-russias-future-main-battle-tank/

    Using the above figures, 200 x $17,133,795.4= $3B 426M 759, 080 per year, + 300/y x $962,000 mod. T-72B3 tanks= $288 600,000; Total:  $3B 715M 359,080 per year. If we include the year 2020, $3B 715M 359,080 x 3= $11B 146M 077, 240  That's a lot!

    Pretty shit investment. T-72B3s only have kontakt 5 and are onsolete no matter how many fancy digital crap you put into them. IF this year they were gonna buy a 100 T-90 proryvs with 2A82 guns and relikt armor then we'd be talking.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:46 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:Even if components & gear r being produced for the Lider, it doesn't mean they will be installed on it & not on other ships. So, to me at least, until its hull is under construction, the Lider isn't being built & remains a paper ship!
    The Navy again turned out to be stepdaughter
    The renewal of the naval staff of the Russian Navy is unacceptably slow
    http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2018-02-09/2_983_red.html
    What and what does the russian army and air force have to show for snatching up the funds needed by the navy? Kurganets, Su-57, and Armata aren't coming earlier or in larger numbers.

    The Ministry of Defense plans to purchase 200 tanks annually
    http://www.ng.ru/news/607632.html?print=Y


    The majority of the in-service tanks are of the T-72 and T-90 variants, including 564 modernised T-72B3 tanks (according to Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu), and 300 T-90 tanks. The modernised T-72B3 tanks are gradually replacing the other varieties, at a rate of 300 tanks per year. ..
    The goal is to unify the types of tanks as much as possible in order to reduce maintenance costs. The modernisation of T-72 tanks costs 50 million rubles (962,000 dollars) each.
    According to unofficial sources, the cost per [Armata] tank is approximately 400 million rubles [$6,853,518.16 US at today's rate], which is more than double that of the German Leopard-2 and about 60-75% higher than that of the French Leclerc and US M-1 Abrams. Yuri Borisov, the deputy defence minister responsible for procurement, has indicated that the cost is about 2.5 times higher [or $17,133,795.4] than stated in the State Armaments Programme.
    As a result, the Defence Ministry is expecting to reduce the number of Armata tanks it will procure, focusing instead on continuing to modernise existing T-72 tanks in the medium term. According to Russian media reports, Uralvagonzavod has agreed to lower some Armata costs, but the programme will still be expensive.
    https://russiamil.wordpress.com/2015/07/15/armata-russias-future-main-battle-tank/

    Using the above figures, 200 x $17,133,795.4= $3B 426M 759, 080 per year, + 300/y x $962,000 mod. T-72B3 tanks= $288 600,000; Total:  $3B 715M 359,080 per year. If we include the year 2020, $3B 715M 359,080 x 3= $11B 146M 077, 240  That's a lot!

    Pretty shit investment. T-72B3s only have kontakt 5 and are onsolete no matter how many fancy digital crap you put into them. IF this year they were gonna buy a 100 T-90 proryvs with 2A82 guns and relikt armor then we'd be talking.

    Please, for the sake of the rest of our intelligence, please stop posting. Just lurk.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:08 am

    PapaDragon wrote:]
    Look, as much as hate to admit my fuckups I gotta say that there might be something in those Lider construction news.

    Recently they started massive overhaul of Sevmash shipyard, here is photo:

    https://sdelanounas.ru/i/y/i/5/Yi5yYWRpa2FsLnJ1L2IyNi8xODAxL2EyL2UwODEyMzNlYzdjNy5qcGc_X19pZD0xMDMwMDQ=.jpg


    And even weirder is that they filmed this massive ship section being built there while making documentary the other day, you can clearly see it on this video in the background at 0:42 seconds​:

    Dont worry we all know about your opinions wrt Lider Smile





    But form sometime MoD was saying: first hello carriers/LHDs then Liders. So looks like after 2025 Lider bookmark will be  laid at earliest.




    Kimppis wrote:

    And it seems to me that you don't understand RuAF either. Not realizing that the procurement of current aircraft (Su-35, Su-34, Su-30SM) is going to remain roughly the same until the mid-20s. You seemed to think that Su-57 is going to just replace all/most of them in production by 2020, or something, which is obviously not the case. The maximum annual order of Su-57 is around 10-12 planes, it obviously can't be faster than the current pace of Su-35 procurement.



    What again is quite logical: upgrading production capabilities if you dont expect a massive war is also helluva expensive. 10-18 planes per year seem to be realistic for Su-57. Unless there will be export contract of course.
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    George1

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    Re: Talking bollocks thread

    Post  George1 on Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:11 pm

    discussion with insulting comments continue here


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