Talking bollocks thread #4

RTN wrote:

Isos wrote:Sell it to a poor country like Venezuela or Argentina (that would piss off UK) for low price.

In any case, Russian export models are among the worst in the world, probably even worse than China's. Western governments do not export top of the line models. Diminished versions of local models are exported. Even then Western export models of military hardware are in orders of magnitude better than Russian export models.

If that is the case then why on earth are you guys making such a fuss about Turkey's S-400's?

But yes back in Soviet times some of the stuff that was exported was really not great at all, with the Mig-23MS variant a prime example. Nowadays though things are very different. Perhaps I can refresh your memory a bit?
The Indian Su-30MKI was able to out fly all of it's Western counterparts (incl the F15) during dogfight exercises - mainly due to Russian thrust vectoring engines and it's Russian IRTS.

But your military planners and aircraft designers seems to ignore that particular fact and seems to think BVR is the answer to all your air-to-air combat deficiencies. Major strategic flaw in my opinion.

RTN wrote:

Mir wrote:The Indian Su-30MKI was able to out fly all of it's Western counterparts (incl the F15) during dogfight exercises - mainly due to Russian thrust vectoring engines and it's Russian IRTS.

Indian Flankers are a classic example of mediocre Russian export models. Several technologies on board the aircraft that's operated by the RuAF was not exported. Consequently, Indians imported those technologies from Western countries and of late are probably trying to develop some of it themselves.

Leave aside Western Air Force, as the events of February 2019 proved Indian Air Force can't even fight against fellow third world countries like Pakistan. Had one of their Mig 21 shot down by a F-16. Good fortune ensured that their pilot was returned in one piece by the Pakistanis.

Ok that's interesting! So by your own admission the F-15's and other Western fighters are even more mediocre than the Su-30MKI! Never thought you'd admit that!

So India lost 1 Mig21 shot down by an F-16A...yip that really shows overwhelming air superiority!

In any case, Russian export models are among the worst in the world, probably even worse than China's. Western governments do not export top of the line models. Diminished versions of local models are exported. Even then Western export models of military hardware are in orders of magnitude better than Russian export models.

That is a very bold statement... do you have anything to back that up?

Generally you get what you pay for and with western stuff you get no choice at all... you are either an F-5 country or an F-16 country and you don't get any say in the matter.

But your military planners and aircraft designers seems to ignore that particular fact and seems to think BVR is the answer to all your air-to-air combat deficiencies. Major strategic flaw in my opinion.

And look at the extreme reaction of the US in particular to exports of S-400s and Su-35s... I mean kicking Turkey out of the F-35 programme probably cost several billion dollars... what are they so afraid of?

Indian Flankers are a classic example of mediocre Russian export models.

Actually it is an example of Russian Flexibility. Apart from Israel, no country has been allowed to integrate any parts or weapons into the F-35 themselves... even countries that invested billions into the programme. How many Israeli or Russian bits did the French allow India to integrate into their Rafales?

Several technologies on board the aircraft that's operated by the RuAF was not exported.

At the time of the purchase the only other Su-30 in service was in service in the RuAF in the PVO units and it didn't have any amazing or exceptional technology except stuff that connected it to the Russian air defence system and to allow it to carry nuclear weapons... stuff that would be of no value to any other country for obvious reasons.

The technologies added to the Su-30MKI for the Indian Airforce that came from Israel and France were enormously expensive and made the aircraft rather more expensive, and making it themselves increased costs even further, but at the time there were no Russian equivalents on offer... it was only later that Kret raised its game and came up with equivalent kit and in some cases perhaps better kit that was not for export, but I should be clear as long as India is prepared to pay for it there was not a lot that was off the table except nuclear related stuff that cannot be sold because of the NPT.

When the Su-30MKI was developed it was the most capable and powerful Flanker in service anywhere, the slightly later Chinese Su-30MKK was less capable and sophisticated but aerodynamically they were both excellent and fully competitive on the international markets.

It was only when the Su-35 entered Russian Service that they got a Flanker with better equipment, though the Su-34 is superior in strike and comfort regards.

Much of the better avionics on the Su-35 were developed by Russia in response to what the Indians were getting with their Su-30MKI.

Consequently, Indians imported those technologies from Western countries and of late are probably trying to develop some of it themselves.

At the time the Russians didn't have any aircraft in service with those sorts of systems... now they do... many were fitted to Su-35s and next gen systems were added to Su-57 and for the LMFS and the prototypes were fitted to Su-35 and MiG-35.

Leave aside Western Air Force, as the events of February 2019 proved Indian Air Force can't even fight against fellow third world countries like Pakistan. Had one of their Mig 21 shot down by a F-16. Good fortune ensured that their pilot was returned in one piece by the Pakistanis.

Leaving aside the Chip on your shoulder, but wouldn't you expect an F-16 to defeat a MiG-21 most of the time?

The entire design purpose of the F-16 was aerodynamic superiority over the MiG-21 specifically... that was what it was designed for.

India imposed western technology because they were told it was better than russian. They just ended up with an expensive aircraft costing 70 million dollars when algerian or venezuelan su-30 were bought for 30 million each. At the end indian su-30 isn't any better.

To be fair at the time it was better, but then why would it not be... the Russian Air Force of the time was happy with Su-27s and MiG-29s and was too tight to spend money on upgrades like the MiG-29SMT or the original Su-27M upgrades which never entered service so none of the new instruments and systems and equipment was being funded or bought... it was only after the Su-30MKI programme that they started looking at proper upgrades and improvements to their aircraft and newer better systems were developed.

The western systems were much better, but as you say almost doubled the price of the aircraft... but then local assembly increases costs too so part of that will be this as well.

And you are quite wrong about the kilo being exported. The first improved kilos were made for export. It's just after seeing how good they were that russia ordereds some. First to order them was China back in the 90s and it was the project 636. Then Algeria and Vietnam ordered some too.

Quite the same situation as the Su-30MKI actually... the first Su-30M (Project 877) entered service in about 1980s and they made a few for themselves but unlike the Su-30 they exported a few to friendly navies including Iran and other countries. By the mid 1990s they had lots of things they could upgrade but the Russian Navy wasn't interested... just like the Russian Air Force wasn't interested in upgraded fighters. Essentially Chinese and Indian orders paid for the upgrades... with the upgraded Indian models called Project 877EKM, and the Chinese models Project 636. The Chinese essentially paid more and got better subs.
The Russian Navy had a lot of Kilo class subs and as you mention didn't get around to ordering new upgraded Project 636s till 2010 as the older subs left service.

Just like pantsir was made for UAE and was much better than old tunguska operated by russia.

To be fair Tunguska are two different systems... the UAE paid for Pantsir to be upgraded and made better than old Pantsir.

The Tunguska is an Army vehicle intended to operate with armoured units to provide protection from aircraft in combat, while the Pantsir is a shelterised system used by the Air Force to defend their bigger missiles (S-300 and S-400 batteries).

The Pantsir upgrade was radical and expensive but made significant improvements in performance... instead of upgrades the search and tracking radars were replaced with much better new models and the 2A72 single barrel guns from the BMP-3 were replaced with the 2A38M twin barrel cannon from the Tunguska, which made them vastly more effective.

Then when they saw how good it was russians ordered it.

When the UAE order paid for production then they took advantage and ordered some for themselves... much the same way as the notoriously tight Russian Navy bought MiG-29KR deck fighters when India ordered some and paid for tooling and setting up production too.

The other exemple is Grigorovitch frigate which was made for export and for India. When they saw how good it was russia ordered its own.

The Krivaks were modified into Talwars with new systems, and then they developed the Grigorovitch, but the plans were for the Gorshkov to be the core of Frigates in the Russian Navy... an enlarged version being developed now.

Some of their stuff that are made exclusively for export are not downgraded because they don't use it in their forces.

And because the customer is paying for it they got a lot of equipment that the Russian military couldn't afford at the time either so it was actually better than the domestically used stuff... for the time... but not now obviously.

Mig-35 is also an export product mainly and isn't downgraded at all.

Had India bought MiG-35s then their "upgraded MiG-29" would be fundamentally better than any MiG-29 in Russian service, but they went for the Rafale instead and now the Russians have their own MiG-35s trickling into service their money is going in to the new technologies that aircraft is introducing in the Russian military.

Su-35 is made for russia so the export su-35 is downgraded.

Very true, but some of the systems on the export models will not be downgraded as such, rather missing, because there is no export version of that equipment, or the customer doens't need it... (like the equipment that ties the aircraft into the Russian IADS or the equipment for managing and carrying nuclear weapons etc etc.

GarryB wrote:
Actually it is an example of Russian Flexibility. Apart from Israel, no country has been allowed to integrate any parts or weapons into the F-35 themselves... even countries that invested billions into the programme. How many Israeli or Russian bits did the French allow India to integrate into their Rafales?

To be honest, this alone is a fact created back in times when beggars could not be choosers. Russian MIC was forced to accept even the most bizarre requests from its customers, in order to survive. It is hardly a case now, the best example is India's participation in Su-57 project. They obviously have heard "no" one ant the last time

It was aimed at you. You were being obnoxious. It's fine but damn brother are you dramatic sometimes.

A drama queen needs drama and someone they can blame that is not themselves of course...

Feel sorry for the kids he teaches though... there is first place and everyone else is a loser... and every mistake or problem is their fault.

I watched a TED programme that talked about self made billionaires... ie people who earned the money and power without inheriting it and the guy who did the talk suggested that the ones that were successful were ones that left school early because staying in school too long teaches you failure is bad and to be avoided at all costs... but they never really teach you how to deal with failure how to encourage you to improve yourself by examining your failure and trying to learn from it.

He basically said quite often the difference between an average guy and a billionaire is that the average guy wont take such risks and will often setting for working to make a living and you can't become a billionaire from earning wages. You have to take risks and you have to make judgement calls and gambles, and you have to be able to learn to deal with failures and learn from them and don't let them slow you down or turn you off, but to make you more keen to succeed and do better.

I get the feeling PD is not that sort of teacher.

BTW a 17 second burn that accelerated the object by 1 m/s it is pretty clear this is not a main engine burn but an adjustment engine, so clearly they are making a minor adjustment to position it for a proper shift later on... big deal.

A person who has succeeded in an endeavor once already knows he has what it takes and will know it forever.

The reality of the world is that once you have money it is easier to make rather more with that money than to try to earn it through manual labour, but making more money requires taking risks and risk taking obviously involves risk... you just need to manage that risk so you never lose more than you can afford to lose, but that means never risking it all... which can sometimes pay off big time and make you a billionaire... something more conservative risk is never going to do... so you have to settle for just being a millionaire instead...

Going to bed now, but when I get up tomorrow going to have a good hard prune of this thread to remove all the petty bullshit.

It is sad that this thread is supposed to be about the future and moving forward and growth and development, and yet some see it as a chance to hate and complain and moan and bitch.