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    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:43 pm

    Isos wrote:Militarov, I saw you're back in this forum. I wanted to ask you what you think about the products which are on this website

    http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/kopnena-vojska-kov

    Are they better or worst than russian or Nato équivalents, in general ? What about the radars and ECM presented, battle management softwere? The 125 mm are made with steel or tungusten ?

    An army armed with them could beat an army (equivalent numbers and training) armed with nato equipement?


    Complex question, that requires very complex answer.

    First of all Yugoimport SDPR is what i call "Photoshop company", they are legendary for presenting stuff they not only cant produce, but cant even draw properly. Let me give you an example.

    http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/galeb-g-4-traininglight-attack-aircraft

    Super Galeb G4... even if whole Yugoslavia suddenly came back together there is no way in Hell we could make it in 5 or 10 years timeframe. Let alone Yugoimport SDPR to organise such feat.

    http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/orao-j-22

    J-22 Orao.. same story.

    SDPR is basically marketing company, they are there to sell shit, however they started funding some projects in recent years as military industry fell in despair, many companies do not exist, are in horrible financial situation or were sold for beans to foreigners which just closed them to prevent having competition, some even completely changed field of work... so take everything on their website with shovel of salt.

    Second thing is that many of items marketed as product of Serbian industry, while truly being mostly assembled in Serbia have more foreign equipment than International Space Station. Lazar 3 for an example... Cummins engine, Allison transmission, steel from Slovenia... navigation and communication from France if i recall... overall maybe 30% of its value is produced actually by Serbia.

    In terms of quality small arms, ammunition, mortar shells, mortars... uniforms etc, its good, suprisingly good most of the time, lets say you can easily position such products of Serbian industry in the lower upper class. On other hand i cant say much about those PR-15 radars you asked about, but i know those are just further development of IR-3 which Yugoslavia started fielding in early 80s, mostly with border guards. And then again, it was based on some French Olifant-2 or something of a sort, which we obtained in mid 70s.

    APFSDS-T M88 i belive has tungsten carbide rod, its licenced production of Soviet BM-15 from early 70s, so i assume identical data apples.


    "The projectile exist of a steel dart shaped projectile in which a 20 mm hole is drilled in front. A Tungsten penetrator (20 mm diameter ,71 mm long) is placed in this hole, locked up by a screwed in soft steel piercing cap. This piercing cap prevented the projectile of bouncing off at low impact angles. On top of the piercing cap a sheet steel ballistc cap is crimped. On the outside of the dart body grooves are machined in which the three -120 degrees each- sabots fit. The sabots are kept together with a small red copper driving band. The drivingband is very thin because this projectiel is fired from a smoothbore barrel and does not need to be forced in the lands and grooves to induce spin. The dart has five fins that have a small chamfered surface on the front end that induces a slow rate of spin to improve stability. On the outer circumference of the fins a 3mm long red copper nail are placed. This red copper nails avoid the steel fins from scraping the inside of the barrel, scratching it. The wingspan of the fins are therefore is 125-3-3 = 119 mm. The nails also serve as the lower anchorage for the sheet powder combustable bushing that is glued to the outer circumference of the sabots. The combustable bushing is filled with powder sticks and closed with a combustable closing cap. Upon firing, the driving belt is reduced in dismeter, weakening it. Upon leaving the barrel , the airstream will blow the sabots off, the induced slow rotation will throw them free of the dart. The loose penetrator flying towards the target has a diameter of 44 mm only."
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    Isos

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:28 pm

    Thanks,

    I know they can't produce big stuff like aircrafts. However they sell lot of small things to various states like anti tanks weapons and small arms. They have decent snipers rifle and AK copy. For armies with small budget it's a nice choice.

    What about the M-84as tank ? Can they produce them or is it just an upgrade? They did well with Koweit against Sadam's T-72.

    They have nice MLRS with big rockets too, how about them ? they have somthing like 90 km range ? It can interest lot of armes ?

    Last one, what about Grom B missile? Is it cheaper and better than russian kh 23 or is it better to go for the russian original kh-23 ?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:59 pm

    Isos wrote:Thanks,

    I know they can't produce big stuff like aircrafts. However they sell lot of small things to various states like anti tanks weapons and small arms. They have decent snipers rifle and AK copy. For armies with small budget it's a nice choice.

    What about the M-84as tank ? Can they produce them or is it just an upgrade? They did well with Koweit against Sadam's T-72.

    They have nice MLRS with big rockets too, how about them ? they have somthing like 90 km range ? It can interest lot of armes ?

    Last one, what about Grom B missile? Is it cheaper and better than russian kh 23 or is it better to go for the russian original kh-23 ?

    Zastava Arms is legendary in certain circles, its small arms are solid built with exceptional service record. You wont go wrong with M70AB2 or M76/M91 or any of Zastava hunting rifles.

    Sadly M84 was built by whole Yugoslavia, some 150 companies directly and indirectly over 1000 companies participated in its production, production of such machine today is just a wet dream. What you can see in SDPR materials is just modernisation package for it dubbed M84AS, which for Serbian army does not have money, Croatia and Slovenia have own modernisation programmes and Kuwait seems to have opted for Croatia to do modernisation of their tanks as Djura Djakovic was the company that originally was performing final assembly of the tanks. Yes, M84ABs greatly outperforms T72Ms that Iraqis had in few fields, especially in terms of FCS.

    When its about MLRS, only thing that is actually craftable is Morava MLRS:



    Orkan M87 which they promote is also Yugoslavian legacy which is not really viable anymore as half of companies that provided parts do not exist.

    Grom-B is basically Kh-23 with AGM-65B Maveric TV guidance block, later VTI decided to "develop" own TV guidance GSN device as we call it here but that is all going very slowly... whole project apparently judging from the latest news is dead. Grom-B was never even launched from flying aircraft, so that tells alot. In theory it should be better than Kh-23, however... even if they do finalise the project i am not sure where exactly in Serbia they would produce it... Krušik company maybe or Sloboda but none has current knowledge of dealing with such systems.


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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:44 am



    I just... dont...know...
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:06 pm

    MiM 72 on steroids?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:25 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:MiM 72 on steroids?

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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:09 pm



    So, SAAB and Boeing decided to take Serbian "Mad max" wartime project and turn it into "we totally know what we are doing, and its high tech, and its totally our idea".



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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:10 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:MiM 72 on steroids?

    Missile is apparently modified K-13M by company EDEPRO, they enlarged its engine to allow use from the ground, kept all the control surfaces and slaved it all to new allegedly domestic developed seeker.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:06 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:MiM 72 on steroids?

    Missile is apparently modified K-13M by company EDEPRO, they enlarged its engine to allow use from the ground, kept all the control surfaces and slaved it all to new allegedly domestic developed seeker.

    Oh well apple doesn't fall far from the tree ;-). Could be a very fruitful export item.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:41 am

    So, SAAB and Boeing decided to take Serbian "Mad max" wartime project and turn it into "we totally know what we are doing, and its high tech, and its totally our idea".

    ???

    The first air launched rockets were air to air unguided rockets that ended up being Katushas fired in enormous numbers from trucks during WWII... so who developed the concept? Smile
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    So, SAAB and Boeing decided to take Serbian "Mad max" wartime project and turn it into "we totally know what we are doing, and its high tech, and its totally our idea".

    ???

    The first air launched rockets were air to air unguided rockets that ended up being Katushas fired in enormous numbers from trucks during WWII... so who developed the concept?  Smile

    The idea isn't about rocket artillery which then is actually Chinese, but the fact that ground launched aerial ordinance with an Artillery Rocket booster with what looks like a SDB kit is not exactly cruise missile stuff, but rather cruise missile knock offs on El Cheapo. On that aspect it looks like heavily taken by the Kosava concept. The main difference as I see it is that to work out the SDB package needs to be launched at crazy altitude in order to perform those maneuvers properly.

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    galicije83

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  galicije83 on Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:37 am

    This is latest 4x4 armored vehicle made by SDPR and is called M-05 "Vuk" or "Wolf"....
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    George1

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  George1 on Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:23 pm

    New Serbian armored vehicle BOV M16 Miloš

    On the following February 19, 2017 in Abu Dhabi (UAE), the international defense exhibition IDEX-2017 Serbian military-industrial association "Јugoimport - SDPR" introduced a new armored vehicle BOV M16 Miloš class MRAP 4x4. The machine was designed and built a new company "Borbeni folded Systems" (BSS) "Јugoimport - SDPR" in Velika Plana.

    It is reported that the car BOV M16 Miloš has full combat weight depending on configuration from 12 to 14 tons. . Machine length 5.48 m, width 2.48 m, height 2.3 m capacity of eight people, four of whom are located in four-door cabin, and four - in the troop compartment with a stern ramp. Hulls bearing with the introduction of mine protection, including a V-shaped bottom.

    The machine has a diesel engine Cummins ISB 300 output of 300 hp combined with a six-speed ,, automatic transmission Allison 3500SP. The speed on the highway up to 110 km / h and a cruising range of 500 km. Presented at the IDEX-2017 the first prototype BOV M16 Miloš features designed "Јugoimport - SDPR" remotely controlled weapon module M15 with a 12.7-mm machine gun.



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2444586.html
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:06 am

    George1 wrote:New Serbian armored vehicle BOV M16 Miloš

    On the following February 19, 2017 in Abu Dhabi (UAE), the international defense exhibition IDEX-2017 Serbian military-industrial association "Јugoimport - SDPR" introduced a new armored vehicle BOV M16 Miloš class MRAP 4x4. The machine was designed and built a new company "Borbeni folded Systems" (BSS) "Јugoimport - SDPR" in Velika Plana.

    It is reported that the car BOV M16 Miloš has full combat weight depending on configuration from 12 to 14 tons. . Machine length 5.48 m, width 2.48 m, height 2.3 m capacity of eight people, four of whom are located in four-door cabin, and four - in the troop compartment with a stern ramp. Hulls bearing with the introduction of mine protection, including a V-shaped bottom.

    The machine has a diesel engine Cummins ISB 300 output of 300 hp combined with a six-speed ,, automatic transmission Allison 3500SP. The speed on the highway up to 110 km / h and a cruising range of 500 km. Presented at the IDEX-2017 the first prototype BOV M16 Miloš features designed "Јugoimport - SDPR" remotely controlled weapon module M15 with a 12.7-mm machine gun.



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2444586.html

    http://www.armyrecognition.com/idex_2017_official_online_show_daily_news/yugoimport_from_serbia_unveils_new_milosh_4x4_multipupose_armoured_vehicle_at_idex_2017_11902176.html

    Abit more if someone is interested
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    Godric

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Godric on Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:39 am

    Militarov wrote:
    George1 wrote:New Serbian armored vehicle BOV M16 Miloš

    On the following February 19, 2017 in Abu Dhabi (UAE), the international defense exhibition IDEX-2017 Serbian military-industrial association "Јugoimport - SDPR" introduced a new armored vehicle BOV M16 Miloš class MRAP 4x4. The machine was designed and built a new company "Borbeni folded Systems" (BSS) "Јugoimport - SDPR" in Velika Plana.

    It is reported that the car BOV M16 Miloš has full combat weight depending on configuration from 12 to 14 tons. . Machine length 5.48 m, width 2.48 m, height 2.3 m capacity of eight people, four of whom are located in four-door cabin, and four - in the troop compartment with a stern ramp. Hulls bearing with the introduction of mine protection, including a V-shaped bottom.

    The machine has a diesel engine Cummins ISB 300 output of 300 hp combined with a six-speed ,, automatic transmission Allison 3500SP. The speed on the highway up to 110 km / h and a cruising range of 500 km. Presented at the IDEX-2017 the first prototype BOV M16 Miloš features designed "Јugoimport - SDPR" remotely controlled weapon module M15 with a 12.7-mm machine gun.



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2444586.html

    http://www.armyrecognition.com/idex_2017_official_online_show_daily_news/yugoimport_from_serbia_unveils_new_milosh_4x4_multipupose_armoured_vehicle_at_idex_2017_11902176.html

    Abit more if someone is interested

    it looks pretty decent ... Serbia has been coming out with some decent hardware recently ... like the ever improving Lazar and i see the Nora B-52 has a pretty decent range on some rounds 56Km on M15 rounds and 67Km on some new prototype round
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:26 pm


    Looks good, was not expecting that many new products. Also check out that wheel size on Milos MRAP.

    THOSE ARE the wheels you should install on your military sh*t. This is something you can actually use in rain and off paved roads. Unlike certain EE countries, our guys at least know how to design off-road vehicles that can go off road.

    Now if they would be so kind to actually start producing and delivering those things to the Army that would be super awesome.


    Video with some fresh stuff (missiles, UAV, helicopter drone, APC, missile boat...);

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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:30 pm

    Godric wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    George1 wrote:New Serbian armored vehicle BOV M16 Miloš

    On the following February 19, 2017 in Abu Dhabi (UAE), the international defense exhibition IDEX-2017 Serbian military-industrial association "Јugoimport - SDPR" introduced a new armored vehicle BOV M16 Miloš class MRAP 4x4. The machine was designed and built a new company "Borbeni folded Systems" (BSS) "Јugoimport - SDPR" in Velika Plana.

    It is reported that the car BOV M16 Miloš has full combat weight depending on configuration from 12 to 14 tons. . Machine length 5.48 m, width 2.48 m, height 2.3 m capacity of eight people, four of whom are located in four-door cabin, and four - in the troop compartment with a stern ramp. Hulls bearing with the introduction of mine protection, including a V-shaped bottom.

    The machine has a diesel engine Cummins ISB 300 output of 300 hp combined with a six-speed ,, automatic transmission Allison 3500SP. The speed on the highway up to 110 km / h and a cruising range of 500 km. Presented at the IDEX-2017 the first prototype BOV M16 Miloš features designed "Јugoimport - SDPR" remotely controlled weapon module M15 with a 12.7-mm machine gun.



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2444586.html

    http://www.armyrecognition.com/idex_2017_official_online_show_daily_news/yugoimport_from_serbia_unveils_new_milosh_4x4_multipupose_armoured_vehicle_at_idex_2017_11902176.html

    Abit more if someone is interested

    it looks pretty decent ... Serbia has been coming out with some decent hardware recently ... like the ever improving Lazar and i see the Nora B-52 has a pretty decent range on some rounds 56Km on M15 rounds and 67Km on some new prototype round

    Thing is that very little of it is actually Serbian. All those systems use mainly imported either components, and even materials. Engines, transmission, tires, steel, reinforced glass, basically all electronic components, even base anti-corrosive paint is being imported. But yea i guess its better than not being present on international market at all. Its all just tiny tiny shadow of what back in time Yugoslavia was capable of.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:25 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Godric wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    George1 wrote:New Serbian armored vehicle BOV M16 Miloš

    On the following February 19, 2017 in Abu Dhabi (UAE), the international defense exhibition IDEX-2017 Serbian military-industrial association "Јugoimport - SDPR" introduced a new armored vehicle BOV M16 Miloš class MRAP 4x4. The machine was designed and built a new company "Borbeni folded Systems" (BSS) "Јugoimport - SDPR" in Velika Plana.

    It is reported that the car BOV M16 Miloš has full combat weight depending on configuration from 12 to 14 tons. . Machine length 5.48 m, width 2.48 m, height 2.3 m capacity of eight people, four of whom are located in four-door cabin, and four - in the troop compartment with a stern ramp. Hulls bearing with the introduction of mine protection, including a V-shaped bottom.

    The machine has a diesel engine Cummins ISB 300 output of 300 hp combined with a six-speed ,, automatic transmission Allison 3500SP. The speed on the highway up to 110 km / h and a cruising range of 500 km. Presented at the IDEX-2017 the first prototype BOV M16 Miloš features designed "Јugoimport - SDPR" remotely controlled weapon module M15 with a 12.7-mm machine gun.



    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2444586.html

    http://www.armyrecognition.com/idex_2017_official_online_show_daily_news/yugoimport_from_serbia_unveils_new_milosh_4x4_multipupose_armoured_vehicle_at_idex_2017_11902176.html

    Abit more if someone is interested

    it looks pretty decent ... Serbia has been coming out with some decent hardware recently ... like the ever improving Lazar and i see the Nora B-52 has a pretty decent range on some rounds 56Km on M15 rounds and 67Km on some new prototype round

    Thing is that very little of it is actually Serbian. All those systems use mainly imported either components, and even materials. Engines, transmission, tires, steel, reinforced glass, basically all electronic components, even base anti-corrosive paint is being imported. But yea i guess its better than not being present on international market at all. Its all just tiny tiny shadow of what back in time Yugoslavia was capable of.

    IR camera for driver is a nice touch.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:56 pm

    Militarov wrote:...............

    Thing is that very little of it is actually Serbian. All those systems use mainly imported either components, and even materials. Engines, transmission, tires, steel, reinforced glass, basically all electronic components, even base anti-corrosive paint is being imported. But yea i guess its better than not being present on international market at all. Its all just tiny tiny shadow of what back in time Yugoslavia was capable of.

    Very true but Yugoslavia is dead, buried and decomposed so no use getting worked up over non issue.

    Nothing is local for countries of this size today. All that matters is that you have plenty of spare parts lying around when SHTF. Parts origin is irrelevant, we of all people should know this.

    What irks me is procurement. When the hell do they plan to start adopting these things?

    Exports are nice but unless you use it yourself nobody will be dumb enough to buy it from you.
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    calm

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  calm on Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:21 pm





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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:40 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:...............

    Thing is that very little of it is actually Serbian. All those systems use mainly imported either components, and even materials. Engines, transmission, tires, steel, reinforced glass, basically all electronic components, even base anti-corrosive paint is being imported. But yea i guess its better than not being present on international market at all. Its all just tiny tiny shadow of what back in time Yugoslavia was capable of.

    Very true but Yugoslavia is dead, buried and decomposed so no use getting worked up over non issue.

    Nothing is local for countries of this size today. All that matters is that you have plenty of spare parts lying around when SHTF. Parts origin is irrelevant, we of all people should know this.

    What irks me is procurement. When the hell do they plan to start adopting these things?

    Exports are nice but unless you use it yourself nobody will be dumb enough to buy it from you.

    Just saying, people are sometimes forgeting what Yugoslavia was in this field, real "tiny giant". My father was always getting offers from abroad to move and work, simply coz he was an engineer in ex Yugo def. industry, it was powerful reference back in time.

    Well, depends, some countries focus on licence procurement or reverse engineering instead of procuring directly abroad. Israel is really not much bigger than Serbia, yet they produce mindblowing amounts of components as completely domestic product. Naturally they import alot too, but considering their size... they are impressive.

    Well... they bought just like 2 years ago over 100 Land Rovers... they are getting as "gift" more Hummers (40?), so considering that we have army comparable in manpower to hunting club in major city... i dont think we will see some huge orders of vehicles like this. There will be token amounts ordered from the exact reason you mentioned, so they can sell them abroad easier.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:38 pm

    Militarov wrote:..............................
    Just saying, people are sometimes forgeting what Yugoslavia was in this field, real "tiny giant". My father was always getting offers from abroad to move and work, simply coz he was an engineer in ex Yugo def. industry, it was powerful reference back in time.

    Well, depends, some countries focus on licence procurement or reverse engineering instead of procuring directly abroad. Israel is really not much bigger than Serbia, yet they produce mindblowing amounts of components as completely domestic product. Naturally they import alot too, but considering their size... they are impressive.

    Well... they bought just like 2 years ago over 100 Land Rovers... they are getting as "gift" more Hummers (40?), so considering that we have army comparable in manpower to hunting club in major city... i dont think we will see some huge orders of vehicles like this. There will be token amounts ordered from the exact reason you mentioned, so they can sell them abroad easier.

    I hear ya'.

    As for procurment yes, our Army is small but it makes sense because today for us there are only 2 types of potential wars:

    1) Ones far away that we don't give two figs about, let alone fight.

    2) Massive local sh*tstorms that require total mobilization so you are going back to basics anyway.

    I am not saying they need to go on a shopping spree but they should get one each every couple or several months. After a decade (or less if finances will it) we will have several dozens or maybe up to a hundred (again, if finances will it) in storage. That can't hurt and it will help with marketing.

    At that pace it will hardly make a huge dent in the budget. And in time they can start localizing some of the components, who knows...
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    galicije83

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  galicije83 on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:19 pm

    М06 Милош/Milos

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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:31 pm

    galicije83 wrote:М06 Милош/Milos


    Velika Plana got renamed into Abu Dhabi apparently.
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    galicije83

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  galicije83 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:53 pm

    probably....i made one mistake it isnt M06 its M16 Milos...

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