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    Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:30 am



    MLRS "Morava"
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:55 pm



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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:56 pm

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:59 am

    "The rifles in the running to be the next Pakistani individual weapon are the Beretta ARX-200, CZ-806 Bren 2, FN SCAR, Kalashnikov AK-103, and Zastava M21. Interestingly, the caliber of the new weapons seems to be undecided. The AK-103 is chambered for the 7.62x39mm Russian caliber, while the ARX-200 in 7.62x51mm NATO caliber. The FN SCAR may be either the 7.62×51 NATO -H variant, or the 5.56 NATO -L variant. The CZ-806 and M21 are both in 5.56mm, however. Oddly, Pakistan’s close defense partner, China, does not appear to have a rifle in the running, although it could offer either its QBZ-97 or QBZ-03 rifles in 5.56mm if desired.

    The primary focus of the new program is to not only upgrade the existing rifle designs, but to upgrade the Pakistani Ordnance Factory to a more modern standard, thereby ensuring Pakistani small arms autonomy for the 21st Century."


    Source: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/03/22/pakistan-seeks-new-rifle-replace-g3-type-56/

    However, there are few issues with this text. First of all Serbia is not participating with M21 in this tender but highly modified M77, using components that were developed for M21. Which means its in "heavy" NATO caliber 7,62x51 aka .308 Winchester. Judging by words from one of the insiders from Serbian forum Serbian variant outperfomed every other contestant in terms of durability and was on pair with them in terms of winter operations.







    This is the one in pics. Pakistan wants to obtain two rifles, one in .308 and one in assault rifle catrige 7,62x39 where it seems main candidate is Scar Light... Anyways if Zastava would win this tender (probably wont happen due to political reasons) it would be one of the biggest military contract we ever signed.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:49 am



    Private venture for Angolan army
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:02 pm

    Prime Minister opened construction site for new small arms ammunition factory near city of Užice where famous PPU is already situated:





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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Mon May 09, 2016 9:55 pm

    Palestinian Presidental Guard female commando with Serbian built Zastava M92:

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon May 16, 2016 3:06 am

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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Mon May 16, 2016 3:15 am


    Yugoimport SDPR aka Photoshop company as we call it here. Iranians at least build mockups Very Happy
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Fri May 20, 2016 4:19 pm



    M93 Black Arrow in hands of Armenian-Karabakh soldiers.
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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  George1 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:23 am

    Serbia sells first 12 Lazar II armored vehicle for an unnamed customer

    http://defence-blog.com/army/serbia-sells-first-12-lazar-ii-armored-vehicle-for-an-unnamed-customer.html


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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  George1 on Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:26 am



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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:38 pm

    Militarov, I saw you're back in this forum. I wanted to ask you what you think about the products which are on this website

    http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/kopnena-vojska-kov

    Are they better or worst than russian or Nato équivalents, in general ? What about the radars and ECM presented, battle management softwere? The 125 mm are made with steel or tungusten ?

    An army armed with them could beat an army (equivalent numbers and training) armed with nato equipement?



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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:43 pm

    Isos wrote:Militarov, I saw you're back in this forum. I wanted to ask you what you think about the products which are on this website

    http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/kopnena-vojska-kov

    Are they better or worst than russian or Nato équivalents, in general ? What about the radars and ECM presented, battle management softwere? The 125 mm are made with steel or tungusten ?

    An army armed with them could beat an army (equivalent numbers and training) armed with nato equipement?


    Complex question, that requires very complex answer.

    First of all Yugoimport SDPR is what i call "Photoshop company", they are legendary for presenting stuff they not only cant produce, but cant even draw properly. Let me give you an example.

    http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/galeb-g-4-traininglight-attack-aircraft

    Super Galeb G4... even if whole Yugoslavia suddenly came back together there is no way in Hell we could make it in 5 or 10 years timeframe. Let alone Yugoimport SDPR to organise such feat.

    http://www.yugoimport.com/en/proizvodi/orao-j-22

    J-22 Orao.. same story.

    SDPR is basically marketing company, they are there to sell shit, however they started funding some projects in recent years as military industry fell in despair, many companies do not exist, are in horrible financial situation or were sold for beans to foreigners which just closed them to prevent having competition, some even completely changed field of work... so take everything on their website with shovel of salt.

    Second thing is that many of items marketed as product of Serbian industry, while truly being mostly assembled in Serbia have more foreign equipment than International Space Station. Lazar 3 for an example... Cummins engine, Allison transmission, steel from Slovenia... navigation and communication from France if i recall... overall maybe 30% of its value is produced actually by Serbia.

    In terms of quality small arms, ammunition, mortar shells, mortars... uniforms etc, its good, suprisingly good most of the time, lets say you can easily position such products of Serbian industry in the lower upper class. On other hand i cant say much about those PR-15 radars you asked about, but i know those are just further development of IR-3 which Yugoslavia started fielding in early 80s, mostly with border guards. And then again, it was based on some French Olifant-2 or something of a sort, which we obtained in mid 70s.

    APFSDS-T M88 i belive has tungsten carbide rod, its licenced production of Soviet BM-15 from early 70s, so i assume identical data apples.


    "The projectile exist of a steel dart shaped projectile in which a 20 mm hole is drilled in front. A Tungsten penetrator (20 mm diameter ,71 mm long) is placed in this hole, locked up by a screwed in soft steel piercing cap. This piercing cap prevented the projectile of bouncing off at low impact angles. On top of the piercing cap a sheet steel ballistc cap is crimped. On the outside of the dart body grooves are machined in which the three -120 degrees each- sabots fit. The sabots are kept together with a small red copper driving band. The drivingband is very thin because this projectiel is fired from a smoothbore barrel and does not need to be forced in the lands and grooves to induce spin. The dart has five fins that have a small chamfered surface on the front end that induces a slow rate of spin to improve stability. On the outer circumference of the fins a 3mm long red copper nail are placed. This red copper nails avoid the steel fins from scraping the inside of the barrel, scratching it. The wingspan of the fins are therefore is 125-3-3 = 119 mm. The nails also serve as the lower anchorage for the sheet powder combustable bushing that is glued to the outer circumference of the sabots. The combustable bushing is filled with powder sticks and closed with a combustable closing cap. Upon firing, the driving belt is reduced in dismeter, weakening it. Upon leaving the barrel , the airstream will blow the sabots off, the induced slow rotation will throw them free of the dart. The loose penetrator flying towards the target has a diameter of 44 mm only."
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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:28 pm

    Thanks,

    I know they can't produce big stuff like aircrafts. However they sell lot of small things to various states like anti tanks weapons and small arms. They have decent snipers rifle and AK copy. For armies with small budget it's a nice choice.

    What about the M-84as tank ? Can they produce them or is it just an upgrade? They did well with Koweit against Sadam's T-72.

    They have nice MLRS with big rockets too, how about them ? they have somthing like 90 km range ? It can interest lot of armes ?

    Last one, what about Grom B missile? Is it cheaper and better than russian kh 23 or is it better to go for the russian original kh-23 ?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:59 pm

    Isos wrote:Thanks,

    I know they can't produce big stuff like aircrafts. However they sell lot of small things to various states like anti tanks weapons and small arms. They have decent snipers rifle and AK copy. For armies with small budget it's a nice choice.

    What about the M-84as tank ? Can they produce them or is it just an upgrade? They did well with Koweit against Sadam's T-72.

    They have nice MLRS with big rockets too, how about them ? they have somthing like 90 km range ? It can interest lot of armes ?

    Last one, what about Grom B missile? Is it cheaper and better than russian kh 23 or is it better to go for the russian original kh-23 ?

    Zastava Arms is legendary in certain circles, its small arms are solid built with exceptional service record. You wont go wrong with M70AB2 or M76/M91 or any of Zastava hunting rifles.

    Sadly M84 was built by whole Yugoslavia, some 150 companies directly and indirectly over 1000 companies participated in its production, production of such machine today is just a wet dream. What you can see in SDPR materials is just modernisation package for it dubbed M84AS, which for Serbian army does not have money, Croatia and Slovenia have own modernisation programmes and Kuwait seems to have opted for Croatia to do modernisation of their tanks as Djura Djakovic was the company that originally was performing final assembly of the tanks. Yes, M84ABs greatly outperforms T72Ms that Iraqis had in few fields, especially in terms of FCS.

    When its about MLRS, only thing that is actually craftable is Morava MLRS:



    Orkan M87 which they promote is also Yugoslavian legacy which is not really viable anymore as half of companies that provided parts do not exist.

    Grom-B is basically Kh-23 with AGM-65B Maveric TV guidance block, later VTI decided to "develop" own TV guidance GSN device as we call it here but that is all going very slowly... whole project apparently judging from the latest news is dead. Grom-B was never even launched from flying aircraft, so that tells alot. In theory it should be better than Kh-23, however... even if they do finalise the project i am not sure where exactly in Serbia they would produce it... Krušik company maybe or Sloboda but none has current knowledge of dealing with such systems.


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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:44 am



    I just... dont...know...
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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:06 pm

    MiM 72 on steroids?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:25 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:MiM 72 on steroids?

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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:09 pm



    So, SAAB and Boeing decided to take Serbian "Mad max" wartime project and turn it into "we totally know what we are doing, and its high tech, and its totally our idea".



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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  Militarov on Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:10 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:MiM 72 on steroids?

    Missile is apparently modified K-13M by company EDEPRO, they enlarged its engine to allow use from the ground, kept all the control surfaces and slaved it all to new allegedly domestic developed seeker.
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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:06 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:MiM 72 on steroids?

    Missile is apparently modified K-13M by company EDEPRO, they enlarged its engine to allow use from the ground, kept all the control surfaces and slaved it all to new allegedly domestic developed seeker.

    Oh well apple doesn't fall far from the tree ;-). Could be a very fruitful export item.
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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:41 am

    So, SAAB and Boeing decided to take Serbian "Mad max" wartime project and turn it into "we totally know what we are doing, and its high tech, and its totally our idea".

    ???

    The first air launched rockets were air to air unguided rockets that ended up being Katushas fired in enormous numbers from trucks during WWII... so who developed the concept? Smile


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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    So, SAAB and Boeing decided to take Serbian "Mad max" wartime project and turn it into "we totally know what we are doing, and its high tech, and its totally our idea".

    ???

    The first air launched rockets were air to air unguided rockets that ended up being Katushas fired in enormous numbers from trucks during WWII... so who developed the concept?  Smile

    The idea isn't about rocket artillery which then is actually Chinese, but the fact that ground launched aerial ordinance with an Artillery Rocket booster with what looks like a SDB kit is not exactly cruise missile stuff, but rather cruise missile knock offs on El Cheapo. On that aspect it looks like heavily taken by the Kosava concept. The main difference as I see it is that to work out the SDB package needs to be launched at crazy altitude in order to perform those maneuvers properly.

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    Re: Serbian Defence Industry and Arms Exports

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:42 am

    Looks like they have too many AAMs and likely not enough aircraft to use them so they are offering them as solid rocket booster motors for ground based artillery...

    No one else came up with that idea because everyone else has a functioning air force.

    Makes you wonder why they think it would be of no use as a SAM... there are plenty of dedicated solid rocket boosters on the market for sounding rockets and other purposes that would be better suited...

    Looks to me like a Hosta situation... they wanted 120mm gun/mortar vehicles but had plenty of 122mm 2S1s so solved the two problems with a combined solution... nothing to get excited about however...


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