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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

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    Mike E

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:39 am

    sepheronx wrote:Doubt we will see it anytime soon. And like most iterations, it will be a 10% or less performance increase like plenty times before.

    HTC, mainframe market is huge. Dont underestimate it as it is what is keeping IBM alive. 8C wont face much competition as SPARC is outdated and only real conpetitor is Intel after the fact AMD is moving to ARM for their next Opteron. As well, after US black listed T-Platforms, a successful HPC company, then there was this push. As well as finding back doors in cpu design.

    Past Itanium was just a shy of 2 years ago. It isnt like cisc processors were you come up with some lousy upgrade and piss poor socket design every 6 months. It is an HP and Intel collaberation which is working well for HP apparently.
    Well, Nvidia GPU's ARM CPU's will be using by the end of next year, and Intel should be 14 nm by mid-2016... FinFET's won't have huge advantages over larger lithographing, but TSMC's new FinFET+ should change that. After the FinFET's we will we huge advantages...

    AMD is only proposing ARM based designs for lower cost and lower power servers. The main trial with the 8C is if it is as good as they say, and if it can actually be built in large numbers...

    Once again, why did Intel abandon it?
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:51 am

    Mike E wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Doubt we will see it anytime soon. And like most iterations, it will be a 10% or less performance increase like plenty times before.

    HTC, mainframe market is huge. Dont underestimate it as it is what is keeping IBM alive. 8C wont face much competition as SPARC is outdated and only real conpetitor is Intel after the fact AMD is moving to ARM for their next Opteron. As well, after US black listed T-Platforms, a successful HPC company, then there was this push. As well as finding back doors in cpu design.

    Past Itanium was just a shy of 2 years ago. It isnt like cisc processors were you come up with some lousy upgrade and piss poor socket design every 6 months. It is an HP and Intel collaberation which is working well for HP apparently.
    Well, Nvidia GPU's ARM CPU's will be using by the end of next year, and Intel should be 14 nm by mid-2016... FinFET's won't have huge advantages over larger lithographing, but TSMC's new FinFET+ should change that. After the FinFET's we will we huge advantages...

    AMD is only proposing ARM based designs for lower cost and lower power servers. The main trial with the 8C is if it is as good as they say, and if it can actually be built in large numbers...

    Once again, why did Intel abandon it?

    They didn't.  Kittson is next in line. Because Intel failed at VLIW, doesn't mean Russia has to.  Actually, GPU's are VLIW processors.  Anyway, Elbrus 4C showed it is quite impressive performance for 700mhz processor.  BTW, the push for VLIW was through Babayan, whom worked for Intel or at least is now.

    If Intel abandoned it, then they wouldn't be supporting it and creating a new one, which evidently, they are.  Itanium was their failure.  But that does not mean that VLIW processors are all failures.  Mike, I hope you understand this.  So let me get this straight, because Intel failed at something, while Russian MCST is showing actual success with its VLIW processor design, it should just give up and buy Intel?

    Once again, throwing transistors around and reducing size is one aspect to performance increase.  Architecture is far more important and software development.  As of right now, majority of software is poorly designed thus requires huge amount of CPU resources to do the job, which makes these Intel processors good.  But in the end, well, they are not really all that amazing.  What is amazing are the changes in different architectures, not the same architecture rehashed a dozen times and reduced in size and increased transistor count.  Intel is doing this as they control the market.  I doubt we will see 16nm tech anytime soon on the market.  That is your dream Mike, but I don't think it will change to reality anytime soon.

    BTW, AMD does not manufacture their own processors anymore.  They are a FABless facility.  Much like what MCST is.

    Technically, RISC is far better as it has been proven that its performance per clock cycle is higher than CISC simply because the fact there is very little amount of instruction sets. While CISC is filled with them. Problem is, lack of development on RISC processors and software pertaining to it.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:20 am

    Here is my last post on this topic in Uzbekistan thread:

    Just because Intel is pushing CISC processors more and reducing lithography and increasing transistor count, does not mean that MCST needs to give up.  Sorry mike, but the world does not work that way.  Intel has the money to push their products, hence why they are bigger.  But technically, CISC processors are garbage outside of Windows OS.  A system running Unix designed around a RISC is far better, and has been for decades.  But these days, they are expensive to manufacture and are not as open as CISC is, as well as CISC are much easier to program for.  ARM is just the change where there is a re-investment into RISC as SPARC is pretty much almost dead.  VLIW is more or less a RISC style processing but using very long instructions but are still much reduced compared to CISC.

    We can continue this here:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t3439-russian-semiconductor-and-processing-technology

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:40 am

    I really think Putin is really eating Shit Big time.. he one decade late ,in developing its semiconductor industry.
    And even more time if we blame other leaders before him.. The Semiconductor Industry is the third most important one..for Russia after its military industry and space industry.  He is losing a HUGE opportunity to compete in such
    profitable and prestigious market in moments where US Government spying have very annoyed not only
    Latin America but also its European allies.

    Because US is not only spying average people ,but also high ranked politicians and Presidents thanks to
    US monopoly in the semiconductor Industry and graphics and processors.

    If for example RUssia tomorrow, develops a New personal Computer with an Operating System and Business Software that is very useful for the international Business.. and with similar performance.. then American Companies
    will experience a major black hole in their sales and it will significantly not only boost Russia economy but create entire new Business and markets...

    It will be like the latest  Iphone.. people waiting in big lines to buy Personal COmputers that will allow people to navigate online safely without being Spied By US corporations. without the need of anti virus. And companies will be able to buy computers that their intelectual property secrets cannot be stolen.

    Intel is a great company.. but what Ruins it.. is that is an american company and every company in US have to submit to the dirty hands of the Federal US government. Ie... spy software or hardware is integrated in US made computers.. This might not matter for the average joe but for a company Russia defense Industry is a HUGE issue..
    because US if they wanted it.. could sabotage a Nuclear Reactor if the engineers who develop it had it connected to american made computers.. or also another issue is Business spying for intelectual property stealing. So all electronic hardware from computers ,to hardware that connect to computer , to home theaters to Modern cars with American computers integrated , to consoles.. where US Gov can control the government from where the technology was made.. could have Spy hardware or software integrated. So any american/European/Korean or Japanese electronics are a Huge Security Issue including gaming consoles to have in any military base ,specially if have connection to satellite as now every smart phone can. Because spy hardware could be used against Russia in case of war. This is probably the reason why for any foreigner to sell any CAR in Russia it need to be all the hardware done in Russia so they can inspect there is not any cheat or spy thing inside. Russia needs to build build microprocessors not only for Business but also for civilians use.. is a must.. not only for security but also for the mayor development that will be to their technology and economy.

    If Russia this week announced a new Personal Computer and advertise it as NSA free.. as 100% free of Spyware.
    it will be like selling water in the desert to lost travelers.. because All Europe and US allies will buy it..in the millions in not time ,all Business companies including american ones will do it.. to keep away the American Federal Government dirty fingers and their noses from their Intelectual property . The other Big blow that also Russia needs to do is a Second Internet.. as an alternative to US controlled one.. that will be Huge knockdown to US spying business.


    +1 to you @sepheronx  very good information ..


    Last edited by Vann7 on Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:55 am; edited 3 times in total
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:57 am

    sepheronx wrote:Here is my last post on this topic in Uzbekistan thread:

    Just because Intel is pushing CISC processors more and reducing lithography and increasing transistor count, does not mean that MCST needs to give up.  Sorry mike, but the world does not work that way.  Intel has the money to push their products, hence why they are bigger.  But technically, CISC processors are garbage outside of Windows OS.  A system running Unix designed around a RISC is far better, and has been for decades.  But these days, they are expensive to manufacture and are not as open as CISC is, as well as CISC are much easier to program for.  ARM is just the change where there is a re-investment into RISC as SPARC is pretty much almost dead.  VLIW is more or less a RISC style processing but using very long instructions but are still much reduced compared to CISC.

    We can continue this here:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t3439-russian-semiconductor-and-processing-technology

    Uhh, when did I ever mention MCST? You want to know how Intel got their money? - They offered competitive chips at competitive prices, and waited for AMD to make a mistake... RISC is quickly aging, as is CISC... However, CISC based processors have shown themselves to be superior performance-wise, and some examples are approaching the level of efficiency shown by RISC ARM chips... How are CISC CPU's "garbage" outside of Windows? They've worked fine for many years on Unix and Linux based systems... 

    You can mess with the instruction set all you want, but nobody should eve forget about the more technical aspects of a processors. Might as well be using 10 micrometre based processors, right?
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    Temporary CPU thread to be deleted

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:05 am

    Mike E wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Here is my last post on this topic in Uzbekistan thread:

    Just because Intel is pushing CISC processors more and reducing lithography and increasing transistor count, does not mean that MCST needs to give up.  Sorry mike, but the world does not work that way.  Intel has the money to push their products, hence why they are bigger.  But technically, CISC processors are garbage outside of Windows OS.  A system running Unix designed around a RISC is far better, and has been for decades.  But these days, they are expensive to manufacture and are not as open as CISC is, as well as CISC are much easier to program for.  ARM is just the change where there is a re-investment into RISC as SPARC is pretty much almost dead.  VLIW is more or less a RISC style processing but using very long instructions but are still much reduced compared to CISC.

    We can continue this here:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t3439-russian-semiconductor-and-processing-technology

    Uhh, when did I ever mention MCST? You want to know how Intel got their money? - They offered competitive chips at competitive prices, and waited for AMD to make a mistake... RISC is quickly aging, as is CISC... However, CISC based processors have shown themselves to be superior performance-wise, and some examples are approaching the level of efficiency shown by RISC ARM chips... How are CISC CPU's "garbage" outside of Windows? They've worked fine for many years on Unix and Linux based systems... 

    You can mess with the instruction set all you want, but nobody should eve forget about the more technical aspects of a processors. Might as well be using 10 micrometre based processors, right?

    Please take it over to the other thread.

    No, Intel got its money from reverse engineering AMD and vice versa.  They stole from each other.  Intel just got better at it with specific instruction sets like SSE.  CISC are not at all efficient.  Far from it.  But they are powerful hence any piss poor coding can be dealt with pretty effectively thanks to the raw performance.  RISC processors on the other hand are far more efficient at what they do.  Hence the resurgence like ARM.  Only Unix system using Intel is pretty much MAC OSX.  Which worked very well under power PC but was not cost effective.  Linux?  once again, a huge portion of them are running on systems like RISC processors.  BSD and KNE both.  CISC is good because of Windows.  Actually, it was Windows itself is what help boost CISC development as in the past, prior to Windows, it was all systems with their own proprietary OS for their correspondent hardware setup while Windows was more open.  But doing so, it was far from efficient.  As popularity went up, so did the development of hardware around it.

    Still, there is a market since both Fujitsu of Japan, SPARC and IBM of USA and Loongsong of China are developing RISC processors. Russia was the only exception to move away from just RISC but towards VLIW as a whole.

    Let us continue on to the other thread.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:14 am

    The aim is not to have maybe a direct competitor to Intel/AMD, since Intel and AMD are designing CISC processors, which are native x86 and Elbrus E2K architecture is a VLIW which is not native x86 but has an additional instruction set for it.  What is can do though, is if they can develop a system of software for a specific OS, like lets say Synergy, which major companies use, while the processor is developed around it, then they can technically have a system that is very much similar to what Apple had back in the G5 days when they ran the BSD based OS on a IBM RISC PowerPC processor.  VLIW are more impressive at server based systems but on that same note, all depends on how effective its architecture really is.

    Here is some info: http://www.mcst.ru/novyj-8yadernyj-mikroprocessor-elbrus-8c


    ZAO "MCST" launched a pilot batch of universal microprocessors Elbrus-8C . Rated operating frequency of the chip - 1.3 GHz, manufacturing technology - 28 nm, the computing power of 250 gigaflops. Getting ready-made samples of chips is expected in October 2014.

    Elbrus microprocessor-8C - all Russian development. Crystal microprocessor designed for 28 nm technology, has 8 cores with improved 64-bit architecture Elbrus 3rd generation, cache level 2 the total volume of 4 megabytes and Layer 3 volume 16 megabytes.

    Microprocessor-based Elbrus-8C planned mass production servers, workstations and other computer aids intended to be used in public institutions and business structures, placing increased demands on information security, as well as for use in high-performance computing, signal processing, telecommunications. Engineering samples of 4-processor servers based on processors Elbrus-8C with a capacity of 1 teraflops will be made at the end of 2014.

    Domestic architecture developed Elbrus in Russia and has some unique features. These include:

    ability to perform on each core to 25 operations in a single clock cycle, which provides high performance at a moderate clock frequency;
    dynamic binary translation technology, which allows to ensure the effective execution of applications and operating systems, distributed in binary codes x86, including multi-threaded;
    support for the regime of protected computing with special hardware control integrity of the structure of memory, which allows a high level of information security using its software systems.
    The underlying operating system platform is OS Elbrus "Elbrus", built on the basis of kernel Linux. Programming system platform supports languages ​​C, C ++, Java, Fortran 77, Fortran 90.

    Key note is to work on efficiency of the OS to hardware translation more so than just raw power.  Efficiency is key here, and they can come up with an amazing project if only they work hard on it.  Either that or go back to just standard MIPS, RISC or attempt at a CISC.  But technically, it sounds impressive.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:25 am

    BTW, Multiclet has their own blog on sdelanounas.ru

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blog/MultiClet/

    So there is industrial equipment made with their processors. Waiting now for Sputnik satellites to be carrying them as they are working together on it.

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:09 am

    My understanding is that Russia is working with a British made old open hardware microprocessing arquitecture.
    And that they are not interested ,neither intending to Compete with American INTEL or AMD.. simply make a processor that is safe for they to use . But i really think they can do better.. And not only produce a cheap quick
    solution first for their Government security .. but also push for a long Term Business of competing with INTEL of AMD. If they had the vision they could do it.. is amazing how could Russia leadership not jumped a decade before in the Semiconductor Business with the same energy they have done with the Space industry.. or Military Industry which they have essentially surpassed US. Im sure Russia have the capabilities to achieve the same success in the Semiconductor and Graphics industry. Is the Big missing thing in Russia..to really become an attractive market for Europe ,where everyone wants to be part of Russia and not just become a gas station as they are often and rightly called.

    IF you think about this Sep.. had Russia developed a strong Semiconductor Business and Entertainment industry  too. The Ukraine conflict will have never happened.. because Europe will have been integrated long time ago with Russia ,which is the most natural thing to do since they share borders.

    When you look at things that way.. that Europe is a colony of US.. is not because they can't avoid it.
    .but because they want it.. because that the condition US use to be their ally and have all benefit from
    the things they have to sale. Had Russia be something much more than a Gas Station with cheap space travel..
    and be more competitive to USA.. then Europe will very unlikely choose to Ally with US and NATO will not even exist.. because they can buy all the things they can't get from US from Russia.  Is completely retarded.. that Russian leadership all the way to soviet times have not seen before, that you can  influence other nations by just becoming a very developed and advanced nation with a stable economy.

    have all the good technology that everyone love..



    Last edited by Vann7 on Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:14 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    My understanding is that Russia is working with a British made old open hardware microprocessing arquitecture.
    And that they are not interested ,neither intending to Compete with American INTEL or AMD.. simply make a processor that is safe for they to use . But i really think they can do better.. And not only produce a cheap quick
    solution first for their Government security .. but also push for a long Term Business of competing with INTEL of AMD. If they had the vision they could do it.. is amazing how could Russia leadership not jumped a decade before in the Semiconductor Business with the same energy they have done with the Space industry.. or Military Industry which they have essentially surpassed US. Im sure Russia have the capabilities to achieve the same success in the Semiconductor and Graphics industry. Is the Big missing thing in Russia..to really become an attractive market for Europe ,where everyone wants to be part of Russia and not just become a gas station as they are often and rightly called.

    IF you think about this Sep.. had Russia developed a strong Semiconductor Business and Entertainment industry  too. The Ukraine conflict will have never happened.. because Europe will have been integrated long time ago with Russia ,which is the most natural thing to do since they share borders.

    The VLIW will technically be that, since besides Itanium, the Elbrus VLIW processors are only in few.  Most VLIW are graphics processors.  Anyway, it is geared towards specialization like Servers, Workstations and maybe other systems like industrial equipment (what 4C was designed for).  In the end, the ARM processor from Baikal to be expected next year will be for more common use as mobile devices specifically are massive sales in Russia and could work in some sort of personal computer as long as they have an OS designed for it.  Cannot be windows as it was proven the ARM is not very good at Windows hence why Intel Atom processors are used for Windows mobile systems. Well, that isn't 100% true but close. It sucks but when you have a company as small as MCST making some advanced VLIW processor it isn't so bad, but Baikal is the head scratcher here. Rusnano, Rostec and T-Platforms are investing the money in the development of it. That is a lot of groups and money. Why not invest the money towards MCST who already have a working units and a semi proven design? If they want RISC processor, they could have further went on with SPARC design as even Oracle came out with a latest SPARC v9 variant called M8 or something like that. But regardless, the extra money and possibly assistance in assets could have further improved Elbrus 8C development in creating an even more competitive processor. But I guess end goal isn't to directly compete, but to have an alternative and something to fall back on, along with being able to use without the fear of ease dropping or counter intelligence/sabotaging.

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:30 am

    Said in another simpler way..  Had Russia ,aside of all the things they now can do well..Had Russia had the best personal computer and software industry for business and for civilian use, and also a very strong Entertainment industry ie...( movies and video games).   ,that is Russia to be improved version of Japan , It will have been impossible for the European Union to not be allied with Russia. and it will have been impossible for NATO to exist when Russia was seen as a better option. Wink

    And if Russia was allied with the EU.. none of this mess in Ukraine or Syria will have happened.. because
    Russia and Europe united could Isolate economically the middle east for their actions of supporting terrorism..
    and could isolate Ukraine . For US will have been Impossible ever again to control any nation in Europe and real democracy will exist ,because Russia policy is not the creation of one world government but a multipolar one.

    So is somehow crazy ,that Russia/Putin believe that improving their nuking capabilities is the way to influence
    the world .. when by just being a very developed modern nation , they could have far more influence on europe.
    So bad is russia as attractive power to join for Europe..that they prefer to sanction their own business ,and damage their own economies just to not lose the technology/market of USA.

    I really think that not even if Russia give away for free their Gas ,Europe will want to join Russia militarily and in Business. Because US offers much more specially for young generations. This is why i cannot blame the young generations in Ukraine and Georgia to be part of the EU.. regardless if that means being a colony.. thats because Russia do not have anything to offer to them.. other than cheap gas -> to the young generations that is.  THis is the source of problem with Russia that are not competitive enough with US. They have been very smart to capture the most influential nations and leaving Russia only the most undeveloped ones.

    And Euro Asian alliance however something like Russia +China +Japan + South Korea could also do the trick..
    if Russia cannot produce all the things US can. An alliance like that pretty much can compete and in many ways surpass anything that US+Europe can do.

    Such alliance will have a tremendous++ huge influence in the world and even replace in no time the the US dollar as trading currency and create their own.

    So if Euroasia form a trade pact to influence the world.. they could effectively use their trade as a weapon and
    pressure the west. A revolution will happen in USA and Europe if for example young generations could not buy
    Playstation 4 and if the only nations flying to space were in the east. Is all about influence and Russia either need to modernize more or ally with modern nations to compete more.



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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:44 am

    Dunno what to say, at least they are trying. Workstations are probably the biggest need as they are used for multitude of things from basic servers, to VM, CAD, research, etc. These are what companies use. I use them from time to time and love workstations, all types of them. These are what will be making MCST the most money is sales of processors for workstation system, and for servers. Personal desktop use, well, the Elbrus 8C may be exactly what they need but they need to have much better x86 emulation cause well, Windows has full control and since they own the market, it will become nearly impossible to compete. So in other words, if they can create a processor that is good at x86, which is important for Windows, then they can also get into the basic desktop market. There is the concept that they could end up lets say creating a game console with even the 8C (although, that would be totally overkill, so maybe a different processor could suffice) and tap into the video game market. I mean, making a game console would not be challenging and since game consoles rely on heavy integration of software to hardware translation (making as efficient as possible), then it may not be a problem developing games for it, especially since the hardware does not change. But I think that even the ARM processor may be better inclined for that type of task than the VLIW processor.

    Yes, I agree, they need more end products using these processors. But even major companies like Motorola have now gone to ARM development as well, since their CISC processor development has not changed since the 90's.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:14 am

    Let me put this into perspective.

    The average PC user has very little knowledge on what is inside the PC. It is all what it can do nd how fast it can do it. Hence Apple still exists. Their hardware is evident that it isnt really all that good. Recent years, after ridding of PowerPC for Intel, the hardware is more or less in line with any standard PC. But it is the software behind it that makes it intriguing for the average user. Average PC from Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc are no better. You get sub par equipment at semi decent prices. But it is good enough to run what they need it to do. We can all talk about best of the best, reduced lithography, more transistors etc etc etc, but you need to take account for the fact that the software needs to be well developed around the architecture of the processor.

    For instance, you can have a poorly programmed game, so on lower technology, it can struggle. More raw power needed to execute the poorly done coding and most cisc are not entirely capable of out of order execution. The more powerful the cpu, the better for such games. But if a game is very well coded, it could run on even lower tech, without much sacrifice on performance and looks. Good example of these is the game Half Life 2 vs Resident Evil 4. RE4 is close to prettyness of HL2 but it was made for console (proprietary hardware, usually slower in capabilities of gaming PC). On PC, it ran poorly, even on higher end PC's with much more powerful processors than console, but the more advanced pc, the better it ran, while still retaining similar visuals as console version (exclude the fact pc can do higher res than console thus it may look nicer than console due to more pixels on screen). HL2 on the other hand was clearly well coded and I remember running the game on medium, with an old Sempron 2500, which is clearly a weak processor. But in the end, the game looked very good and it ran very well.

    They could build lets say a gaming console or a Mac style PC (more similar to G5 days) and have a. Well coded OS designed around the hardware, and they will find they can get much better performance with a weaker CPU in a task clearly designed for that hardware, vs a more powerful one that isnt. It was evident when CNews did the article I posted a while back of a Elbrus 4c at 700mhz vs an Intel Core i7 760. The 760 was clearly better at random tasks like 7zip or such. But as soon as they ran gost, which is coded towards elbrus architecture, it ran significantly better.

    Thing is, it was created for industrial equipment and specialization. So all software pretaining tk its use will also be specialized. Elbrus 8C seems to be the other case where is will be used for more types of applications like server, hpc, workstations use. After? Well, I heard about some sort of IC-16 or whatever, so maybe a 16 core processor theoretically around 10nm (on rbth.com). Since Russia has obtained the technology to build lithography technology closer towards 10nm, then that means in the future they may have the ability to do less than 20nm themselves. But regardless, pure speculation as who knows what is in plans. T-Platform is a private company and they own Baikal electronics, so with them aiming at theirnown cpu development (starting processors are ARM. Do not know what they plan afterwards) but in the end, they will look at what will make them money and they have been quite successful so far.

    But yes, they need to expand their own development and export it more to other countries. Maybe get India and Egypt involved in CPU design and development as this will help pull these countries together and talant pool.

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:19 am

    sepheronx wrote:Dunno what to say, at least they are trying.  Workstations are probably the biggest need as they are used for multitude of things from basic servers, to VM, CAD, research, etc.  These are what companies use.  I use them from time to time and love workstations, all types of them.  These are what will be making MCST the most money is sales of processors for workstation system, and for servers.  Personal desktop use, well, the Elbrus 8C may be exactly what they need but they need to have much better x86 emulation cause well, Windows has full control and since they own the market, it will become nearly impossible to compete.  So in other words, if they can create a processor that is good at x86, which is important for Windows, then they can also get into the basic desktop market.  There is the concept that they could end up lets say creating a game console with even the 8C (although, that would be totally overkill, so maybe a different processor could suffice) and tap into the video game market.  I mean, making a game console would not be challenging and since game consoles rely on heavy integration of software to hardware translation (making as efficient as possible), then it may not be a problem developing games for it, especially since the hardware does not change.  But I think that even the ARM processor may be better inclined for that type of task than the VLIW processor.

    Yes, I agree, they need more end products using these processors.  But even major companies like Motorola have now gone to ARM development as well, since their CISC processor development has not changed since the 90's.

    Sales are important.. but perception is the most.  Russia needs to create the perception they can provide an
    very good alternative at least or totally replace USA for the needs of any nation..  

    That Russia not only can sell them energy they need or the military weapons.. but also that Russia can provide
    the needs of its society too..

    IF Russia for example..
    1)Develop a very decent computer with its software an alternative that what US offers..
    it doesn't need to be the fastest ,just a decent one..
    2)Goes to mars in a manned program and or deploy a base in the moon years earlier than anyone else.
    3)become stronger in movie industry and game industry..
    4)Release a Smart phone that people camp in front of stores for weeks to get it..

    All those things are not impossible for Russia but very doable things that Russia could do if they spend the same
    energy they used in Sochi to achieve all those things. Such things will be very powerful and extremely influential ..and will effectively replace USA ,as the technology leader. and will drive away many nations from Europe ,away of NATO and EU and attract a massive invasion of Investors to Russia,mayor business will start and a wave of scientist and engineers ,but also students talent..that will want to work with Russia.  Imagine if Russia develop space tourism to the moon at affordable prices? wouldn't something like that eclipse disney world? Very Happy as the #1 tourist attraction?  Very Happy    Absolutely.. People will travel to the space center in Russia in the millions just to see the space flights to the moon and follow everything on realtime on TV. thats what Russia needs.. to show the world they are much more than a gas station and weapons store. The more developed and modern is Russia..the more easier for others will be to switch from the west to the east.


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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Firebird on Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:59 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Dunno what to say, at least they are trying.  Workstations are probably the biggest need as they are used for multitude of things from basic servers, to VM, CAD, research, etc.  These are what companies use.  I use them from time to time and love workstations, all types of them.  These are what will be making MCST the most money is sales of processors for workstation system, and for servers.  Personal desktop use, well, the Elbrus 8C may be exactly what they need but they need to have much better x86 emulation cause well, Windows has full control and since they own the market, it will become nearly impossible to compete.  So in other words, if they can create a processor that is good at x86, which is important for Windows, then they can also get into the basic desktop market.  There is the concept that they could end up lets say creating a game console with even the 8C (although, that would be totally overkill, so maybe a different processor could suffice) and tap into the video game market.  I mean, making a game console would not be challenging and since game consoles rely on heavy integration of software to hardware translation (making as efficient as possible), then it may not be a problem developing games for it, especially since the hardware does not change.  But I think that even the ARM processor may be better inclined for that type of task than the VLIW processor.

    Yes, I agree, they need more end products using these processors.  But even major companies like Motorola have now gone to ARM development as well, since their CISC processor development has not changed since the 90's.

    Sales are important.. but perception is the most.  Russia needs to create the perception they can provide an
    very good alternative at least or totally replace USA for the needs of any nation..  

    That Russia not only can sell them energy they need or the military weapons.. but also that Russia can provide
    the needs of its society too..

    IF Russia for example..
    1)Develop a very decent computer with its software an alternative that what US offers..
    it doesn't need to be the fastest ,just a decent one..
    2)Goes to mars in a manned program and or deploy a base in the moon years earlier than anyone else.
    3)become stronger in movie industry and game industry..
    4)Release a Smart phone that people camp in front of stores for weeks to get it..

    All those things are not impossible for Russia but very doable things that Russia could do if they spend the same
    energy they used in Sochi to achieve all those things. Such things will be very powerful and extremely influential ..and will effectively replace USA ,as the technology leader. and will drive away many nations from Europe ,away of NATO and EU and attract a massive invasion of Investors to Russia,mayor business will start and a wave of scientist and engineers ,but also students talent..that will want to work with Russia.  Imagine if Russia develop space tourism to the moon at affordable prices? wouldn't something like that eclipse disney world?  Very Happy as the #1 tourist attraction?  Very Happy    Absolutely.. People will travel to the space center in Russia in the millions just to see the space flights to the moon and follow everything on realtime on TV. thats what Russia needs.. to show the world they are much more than a gas station and weapons store. The more developed and modern is Russia..the more easier for others will be to switch from the west to the east.


    Re the Iphones, I think alot of that is either i)Apple staff paid to queue as part of a daft pr stunt and ii)in England atleast, Pakistani traders looking to sell them on eg other countries where they are more expensive.

    In England I noticed that the iPhone queues barely had a white, black or oriental person in them.

    __________
    If Britain can do the ARM phone processors, I'm sure Russia can do something pretty quikcly.
    Perhaps supercomputers for network computing. After all, Bill Gates wass adamant thats where things are going for personal computers, as I recall. (Altho I suppose they're not really PERSONAL computers when that happens).
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:55 am

    Sepheronx, I have some good news on Russian domestic electronics. With the current sanctions, recognizing their electronic needs the Russian govt. has set in motion for proper financing of domestic electronic substitution, to the point where domestic electronics market will be set to grow remarkably by 9 Fold! russia

    Revenue of the electronic industry will increase by 9 times
    Held a government meeting on the prospects of domestic microelectronics



    Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev held a meeting "Status and prospects of the domestic microelectronics." The meeting discussed measures to promote domestic production of microelectronics special and civil development program up to 2015, as well as issues of state regulation of the Russian market of electronics.

    The meeting was also attended by Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Arkady Dvorkovich and Dmitry Rogozin, Russian presidential aide on economy Andrei Belousov, head of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov, the Ministry of Health Veronika Skvortsov, Russian Academy of Sciences Vladimir forts and the Federal Agency Mikhail Kotyukov scientific organizations, representatives of the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Communications and the mayor of Moscow, Sergei Sobyanin, and CEO "Roselektronika" , member of the Public Chamber of the Russian Federation, Chairman of the Public Council under the Ministry of Industry Andrei Zverev.

    Today, the development of electronic industry is carried out in accordance with the Strategy for the development of electronic industry in Russia for the period up to 2025 and the state program "Development of electronic and electronic industry in the years 2013-2025", as well as scientific and technical programs of the Union State.

    The main goal of the state policy in the field of electronic industry - increasing its level of technology to the world, the growth of competitiveness of products in the domestic and global markets, the press service of the holding "Roselektronika."

    According to the program in 2025 is planned to achieve the following main indicators of the level of 2011:

    - 2.7-fold increase in the share of domestic products in the world market and by 2.5 times - in the domestic market
    - the growth of labor productivity by 6.5 times;
    - increase by 3 times the amount of jobs created;
    - increase by 6.4 times the volume of production of the domestic electronic products in monetary terms;
    - increase 9 times earnings enterprises of electronic industry;
    - increase in exports by 3.9 times.


    Funding for the program from the federal budget is 175.1 billion rubles, extrabudgetary funding - 315.9 billion rubles.

    In a special segment electronics focuses on the development of strategically important technologies that define the appearance of promising models of weapons. In this case, the priority areas of development include: design and manufacture of radiation resistant electronic components; development and manufacture of microwave components; development of the design components that determine the key characteristics of weapons systems; microelectronic technology levels up to 0,022 / 0,020 nm; technology of three-dimensional integrated circuits.

    Discussed measures to support domestic microelectronics dealt mainly with customs procedures.

    Dmitry Medvedev at the meeting said that we can talk about simplifying import and export of spare parts and consumables microelectronics, instrumentation, process equipment, as well as, perhaps, and the abolition of import duties on the materials and equipment.

    In order to stimulate the Russian sector of the market will need to focus on the promotion of Russian civilian goods. "First of all we are talking about using them in the passport and visa documents, migration, transport, payment and other cards that Russian production of microchips used," - said Dmitry Medvedev.

    CEO of the holding "Roselektronika" Andrei Zverev said that increased production and tax incentives will help reduce the cost, and if the domestic industry will be able to compete successfully in a civil demand, for example by producing elements for medical equipment and communications equipment.

    http://rostec.ru/news/4514722



    ...But the true icing on the cake (which is in red text) is that they'll specifically heavily finance the modernization, innovation and development of strategically important electronics. In short, I'm talking about electronics designed to be heavily resistant to ECM, which will translate in to much more capable SAM'S, ABM's, vehicles, missiles with greater and greater resistance to jamming, spoofing, and other forms of ECM tactics! I know Viktor, and or GarryB is somewhere smiling, and chuckling at the idea that the current sanctions indirectly caused the Russian MIC to create significantly more capable products... lol1
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:01 am

    Here is the competition for you Seph! http://wccftech.com/arm-tsmc-reveal-16nm-finfet-heterogeneous-architecture-processor/
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:26 pm

    Why do I care? TMSC makes Russian processors too. MCST is a fabless facility hence it is about architecture. Your views of microprocessor technology is barbaric as you think more transistors is all that counts. Which isnt the case. Like I said, look up Elbrus 4C performance against core i7 in terms of GOST performance. Clearly gost was designed around elbrus processor and hence it outperformed a more transistor processor as i7, at only 700mhz.

    Just so you know, there is a reason why Fujitsu still makes processors, loongsong and VIA.  Specialization. But you probably already knew that.

    BTW, Elbrus wont have much competition once Intel is forced to stop selling in Russia. So MCST will have a full market available. As well, Epbrus architecture has many security features apparently that others dont, and can be used for other purposes. Hence why its used for military applications.

    s well: http://m.rbth.com/science_and_tech/2014/07/10/russian_microprocessor_firms_to_challenge_intel_and_amd_on_d_38095.html after 8C, they are working on a 16core processor below 20nm tech. So that should make you happy.

    As well: http://zoom.cnews.ru/publication/item/51820/3

    This proves that if a peice of software is optimized around a specific.architecture, that the processor can do better in performance than its raw power counterpart.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:49 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:38 pm

    http://infoglaz.ru/?p=49682

    Good article on 8C and Elbrus history.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:51 pm

    BTW, russia now has the abilitay (or at least soon) to build machinery that makes semiconductors with a topology of 10nm. So in other words, they could effectively build a FAB that can build these processors. It is of course a rusnano/dutch jv.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:21 pm

    sepheronx wrote:BTW, russia now has the abilitay (or at least soon) to build machinery that makes semiconductors with a topology of 10nm. So in other words, they could effectively build a FAB that can build these processors. It is of course a rusnano/dutch jv.

    What's your thoughts about the article I posted on the previous page?
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:38 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:BTW, russia now has the abilitay (or at least soon) to build machinery that makes semiconductors with a topology of 10nm. So in other words, they could effectively build a FAB that can build these processors. It is of course a rusnano/dutch jv.

    What's your thoughts about the article I posted on the previous page?

    What I think? Well, I think it will work but you wont see much export west of Russian microelectronics. While Mikran already exports, it is mostly that these are for domestic use. 2015 is when Russia will produce their own arm processor and that can be used for multiple of setups. What will Baikal make next? Dunno. But then in a year or two after, MCST will develop their next processor. So the funding in itself will help boost this. But what some others dont know is that it is the ministry of Industry and trade that is pushing for development of domestic semiconductors for local industries. So in the end, these products are being made/purchased for special purposes so many may not see the civil market. Maybe if MCST makes their own CISC processor then it can be in high demand. Baikal electronics will more than likely meet common civil market interests.

    Problem with starting in the semiconductor industry, you will either need to come up with a special item that others nees but cannot get, or make a product that is heavily competitive. When you dont have the same financial backing. Why MCST was able to develop a decent processor so quickly, was because they got a lot of funding to develop it. But still not on same record of Intel.

    So if they will fund these significantly more, guarantee they will be competitive. MCST proved they can do it, and maybe it is time to maybe move that company as a publicly owned or private rather than state run.

    But sanctions will help domestic industry. Commenters on RT are usually trolls so they will state Russia does not produce anything. Common myth. But as seen, Russia is producing tooling and automation industries to help local manufacturers be efficient. So who knows, the article may be right.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:37 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Why do I care? TMSC makes Russian processors too. MCST is a fabless facility hence it is about architecture. Your views of microprocessor technology is barbaric as you think more transistors is all that counts. Which isnt the case. Like I said, look up Elbrus 4C performance against core i7 in terms of GOST performance. Clearly gost was designed around elbrus processor and hence it outperformed a more transistor processor as i7, at only 700mhz.

    Just so you know, there is a reason why Fujitsu still makes processors, loongsong and VIA.  Specialization. But you probably already knew that.

    BTW, Elbrus wont have much competition once Intel is forced to stop selling in Russia. So MCST will have a full market available. As well, Epbrus architecture has many security features apparently that others dont, and can be used for other purposes. Hence why its used for military applications.

    s well: http://m.rbth.com/science_and_tech/2014/07/10/russian_microprocessor_firms_to_challenge_intel_and_amd_on_d_38095.html after 8C, they are working on a 16core processor below 20nm tech. So that should make you happy.

    As well: http://zoom.cnews.ru/publication/item/51820/3

    This proves that if a peice of software is optimized around a specific.architecture, that the processor can do better in performance than its raw power counterpart.
    Transistors, cache, cores etc are only one part of the equation. I've said this a hundred times and don't understand why you think that... There are (literally) millions of different individual architectures and designs that go into a processor, along with the all-important aspect of optimization. This argument is reminiscent of a "Nvidia vs AMD" troll war... - Where the AMD lovers yell "OPENCL!!!!" and the Nvidia girls yell "BUT CUDA!!". One processor might be better than a different one at one thing, and that "different one" might be better at something else.

    Good ole' VIA. I drive by their (one of their) headquarters once a month or so.... Anyway, you just further proved my point. Processor A may be built for one thing, while processor B might be built for something else. 

    Does that matter? Russia's market is one thing, the international market is another... 

    That is a big improvement... However, they claim it will developed by 2018, when Intel is planning to release chips with performance in the Petaflops! - There is a chance that will be delayed, in which case the better-than-8C-chip might still be relevant. (They'd be on 10 nm by then, which isn't a huge improvement over 16 nm, so it has a good chance.)

    Hmm, and Western model aren't optimized? The problem is that the West got a large head start, and when it comes to technology, there is not such thing as coming back. That being said, that doesn't mean they can't be competitive.

    By the way, I've heard the 8C will be priced at $3000, it this true? If so, that would be its biggest downside. Intel's newest E5-2600 v3 series is cheaper, and look at its performance...

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:29 pm

    Nah, that was 2C+ which uses dsp cores as well that a full system cost was a wopping $3000 but that is due to the fact the CPU itself is made in low numbers and only for radar technology.

    Btw, read that other article I posted about history of Elbrus. You will get a good understanding on how it works and where they came from and were they are going.

    As for Intel. I wouldnt put too much faith in its performance claims as neither they or amd ever give accurate measurements. Actually, mcst is the same. Cause their measurements are based upon their tests and specific software that may be programmed around that architecture. You see this for years.

    The article also goes around the cisc and risc. And as you may happen to know, vliw is another risk type, not cisc. So comparing intel and amd to mcst is comparing them to intel, loongsong, fujitsu, oracle... it is different ballpark. So it is MCST aiming to conpete with those groups rather than intel and amd. But that is also because you may never see mcst past cis countries or in west.

    Mike, do you know much about architectures (i had to learn this shit at school). Cause CISC is not optimized by nature. Hence why they rely on instruction sets while RISC is at software level. I know you're smart as you seem to grasp this better than most, but even the article states that the idea behind risc is a different ideology on how to do things. CISC can be good, no doubt but it becomes reliant on hardware level while risc is software.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:33 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Nah, that was 2C+ which uses dsp cores as well that a full system cost was a wopping $3000 but that is due to the fact the CPU itself is made in low numbers and only for radar technology.

    Btw, read that other article I posted about history of Elbrus. You will get a good understanding on how it works and where they came from and were they are going.

    As for Intel. I wouldnt put too much faith in its performance claims as neither they or amd ever give accurate measurements. Actually, mcst is the same. Cause their measurements are based upon their tests and specific software that may be programmed around that architecture. You see this for years.

    The article also goes around the cisc and risc. And as you may happen to know, vliw is another risk type, not cisc. So comparing intel and amd to mcst is comparing them to intel, loongsong, fujitsu, oracle... it is different ballpark. So it is MCST aiming to conpete with those groups rather than intel and amd. But that is also because you may never see mcst past cis countries or in west.
    Ahhh, ok... Any info on the cost of the 8C? Hopefully they can place it right below the E5, where it will be superior when it comes to performance-per-dollar etc. 

    I'm not actually a huge supporter of Intel, but rather AD (that being said, I'm currently running an OC'ed 3770K). I don't really doubt their performance numbers, but I don't really trust em' either. - If that makes any sense...

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