Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Share

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:14 am

    Let me put this into perspective.

    The average PC user has very little knowledge on what is inside the PC. It is all what it can do nd how fast it can do it. Hence Apple still exists. Their hardware is evident that it isnt really all that good. Recent years, after ridding of PowerPC for Intel, the hardware is more or less in line with any standard PC. But it is the software behind it that makes it intriguing for the average user. Average PC from Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc are no better. You get sub par equipment at semi decent prices. But it is good enough to run what they need it to do. We can all talk about best of the best, reduced lithography, more transistors etc etc etc, but you need to take account for the fact that the software needs to be well developed around the architecture of the processor.

    For instance, you can have a poorly programmed game, so on lower technology, it can struggle. More raw power needed to execute the poorly done coding and most cisc are not entirely capable of out of order execution. The more powerful the cpu, the better for such games. But if a game is very well coded, it could run on even lower tech, without much sacrifice on performance and looks. Good example of these is the game Half Life 2 vs Resident Evil 4. RE4 is close to prettyness of HL2 but it was made for console (proprietary hardware, usually slower in capabilities of gaming PC). On PC, it ran poorly, even on higher end PC's with much more powerful processors than console, but the more advanced pc, the better it ran, while still retaining similar visuals as console version (exclude the fact pc can do higher res than console thus it may look nicer than console due to more pixels on screen). HL2 on the other hand was clearly well coded and I remember running the game on medium, with an old Sempron 2500, which is clearly a weak processor. But in the end, the game looked very good and it ran very well.

    They could build lets say a gaming console or a Mac style PC (more similar to G5 days) and have a. Well coded OS designed around the hardware, and they will find they can get much better performance with a weaker CPU in a task clearly designed for that hardware, vs a more powerful one that isnt. It was evident when CNews did the article I posted a while back of a Elbrus 4c at 700mhz vs an Intel Core i7 760. The 760 was clearly better at random tasks like 7zip or such. But as soon as they ran gost, which is coded towards elbrus architecture, it ran significantly better.

    Thing is, it was created for industrial equipment and specialization. So all software pretaining tk its use will also be specialized. Elbrus 8C seems to be the other case where is will be used for more types of applications like server, hpc, workstations use. After? Well, I heard about some sort of IC-16 or whatever, so maybe a 16 core processor theoretically around 10nm (on rbth.com). Since Russia has obtained the technology to build lithography technology closer towards 10nm, then that means in the future they may have the ability to do less than 20nm themselves. But regardless, pure speculation as who knows what is in plans. T-Platform is a private company and they own Baikal electronics, so with them aiming at theirnown cpu development (starting processors are ARM. Do not know what they plan afterwards) but in the end, they will look at what will make them money and they have been quite successful so far.

    But yes, they need to expand their own development and export it more to other countries. Maybe get India and Egypt involved in CPU design and development as this will help pull these countries together and talant pool.

    Vann7
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3227
    Points : 3351
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:19 am

    sepheronx wrote:Dunno what to say, at least they are trying.  Workstations are probably the biggest need as they are used for multitude of things from basic servers, to VM, CAD, research, etc.  These are what companies use.  I use them from time to time and love workstations, all types of them.  These are what will be making MCST the most money is sales of processors for workstation system, and for servers.  Personal desktop use, well, the Elbrus 8C may be exactly what they need but they need to have much better x86 emulation cause well, Windows has full control and since they own the market, it will become nearly impossible to compete.  So in other words, if they can create a processor that is good at x86, which is important for Windows, then they can also get into the basic desktop market.  There is the concept that they could end up lets say creating a game console with even the 8C (although, that would be totally overkill, so maybe a different processor could suffice) and tap into the video game market.  I mean, making a game console would not be challenging and since game consoles rely on heavy integration of software to hardware translation (making as efficient as possible), then it may not be a problem developing games for it, especially since the hardware does not change.  But I think that even the ARM processor may be better inclined for that type of task than the VLIW processor.

    Yes, I agree, they need more end products using these processors.  But even major companies like Motorola have now gone to ARM development as well, since their CISC processor development has not changed since the 90's.

    Sales are important.. but perception is the most.  Russia needs to create the perception they can provide an
    very good alternative at least or totally replace USA for the needs of any nation..  

    That Russia not only can sell them energy they need or the military weapons.. but also that Russia can provide
    the needs of its society too..

    IF Russia for example..
    1)Develop a very decent computer with its software an alternative that what US offers..
    it doesn't need to be the fastest ,just a decent one..
    2)Goes to mars in a manned program and or deploy a base in the moon years earlier than anyone else.
    3)become stronger in movie industry and game industry..
    4)Release a Smart phone that people camp in front of stores for weeks to get it..

    All those things are not impossible for Russia but very doable things that Russia could do if they spend the same
    energy they used in Sochi to achieve all those things. Such things will be very powerful and extremely influential ..and will effectively replace USA ,as the technology leader. and will drive away many nations from Europe ,away of NATO and EU and attract a massive invasion of Investors to Russia,mayor business will start and a wave of scientist and engineers ,but also students talent..that will want to work with Russia.  Imagine if Russia develop space tourism to the moon at affordable prices? wouldn't something like that eclipse disney world? Very Happy as the #1 tourist attraction?  Very Happy    Absolutely.. People will travel to the space center in Russia in the millions just to see the space flights to the moon and follow everything on realtime on TV. thats what Russia needs.. to show the world they are much more than a gas station and weapons store. The more developed and modern is Russia..the more easier for others will be to switch from the west to the east.


    Firebird
    Lieutenant Colonel
    Lieutenant Colonel

    Posts : 909
    Points : 941
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Firebird on Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:59 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Dunno what to say, at least they are trying.  Workstations are probably the biggest need as they are used for multitude of things from basic servers, to VM, CAD, research, etc.  These are what companies use.  I use them from time to time and love workstations, all types of them.  These are what will be making MCST the most money is sales of processors for workstation system, and for servers.  Personal desktop use, well, the Elbrus 8C may be exactly what they need but they need to have much better x86 emulation cause well, Windows has full control and since they own the market, it will become nearly impossible to compete.  So in other words, if they can create a processor that is good at x86, which is important for Windows, then they can also get into the basic desktop market.  There is the concept that they could end up lets say creating a game console with even the 8C (although, that would be totally overkill, so maybe a different processor could suffice) and tap into the video game market.  I mean, making a game console would not be challenging and since game consoles rely on heavy integration of software to hardware translation (making as efficient as possible), then it may not be a problem developing games for it, especially since the hardware does not change.  But I think that even the ARM processor may be better inclined for that type of task than the VLIW processor.

    Yes, I agree, they need more end products using these processors.  But even major companies like Motorola have now gone to ARM development as well, since their CISC processor development has not changed since the 90's.

    Sales are important.. but perception is the most.  Russia needs to create the perception they can provide an
    very good alternative at least or totally replace USA for the needs of any nation..  

    That Russia not only can sell them energy they need or the military weapons.. but also that Russia can provide
    the needs of its society too..

    IF Russia for example..
    1)Develop a very decent computer with its software an alternative that what US offers..
    it doesn't need to be the fastest ,just a decent one..
    2)Goes to mars in a manned program and or deploy a base in the moon years earlier than anyone else.
    3)become stronger in movie industry and game industry..
    4)Release a Smart phone that people camp in front of stores for weeks to get it..

    All those things are not impossible for Russia but very doable things that Russia could do if they spend the same
    energy they used in Sochi to achieve all those things. Such things will be very powerful and extremely influential ..and will effectively replace USA ,as the technology leader. and will drive away many nations from Europe ,away of NATO and EU and attract a massive invasion of Investors to Russia,mayor business will start and a wave of scientist and engineers ,but also students talent..that will want to work with Russia.  Imagine if Russia develop space tourism to the moon at affordable prices? wouldn't something like that eclipse disney world?  Very Happy as the #1 tourist attraction?  Very Happy    Absolutely.. People will travel to the space center in Russia in the millions just to see the space flights to the moon and follow everything on realtime on TV. thats what Russia needs.. to show the world they are much more than a gas station and weapons store. The more developed and modern is Russia..the more easier for others will be to switch from the west to the east.


    Re the Iphones, I think alot of that is either i)Apple staff paid to queue as part of a daft pr stunt and ii)in England atleast, Pakistani traders looking to sell them on eg other countries where they are more expensive.

    In England I noticed that the iPhone queues barely had a white, black or oriental person in them.

    __________
    If Britain can do the ARM phone processors, I'm sure Russia can do something pretty quikcly.
    Perhaps supercomputers for network computing. After all, Bill Gates wass adamant thats where things are going for personal computers, as I recall. (Altho I suppose they're not really PERSONAL computers when that happens).

    magnumcromagnon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 4468
    Points : 4659
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:55 am

    Sepheronx, I have some good news on Russian domestic electronics. With the current sanctions, recognizing their electronic needs the Russian govt. has set in motion for proper financing of domestic electronic substitution, to the point where domestic electronics market will be set to grow remarkably by 9 Fold! russia

    Revenue of the electronic industry will increase by 9 times
    Held a government meeting on the prospects of domestic microelectronics



    Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev held a meeting "Status and prospects of the domestic microelectronics." The meeting discussed measures to promote domestic production of microelectronics special and civil development program up to 2015, as well as issues of state regulation of the Russian market of electronics.

    The meeting was also attended by Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Arkady Dvorkovich and Dmitry Rogozin, Russian presidential aide on economy Andrei Belousov, head of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov, the Ministry of Health Veronika Skvortsov, Russian Academy of Sciences Vladimir forts and the Federal Agency Mikhail Kotyukov scientific organizations, representatives of the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Communications and the mayor of Moscow, Sergei Sobyanin, and CEO "Roselektronika" , member of the Public Chamber of the Russian Federation, Chairman of the Public Council under the Ministry of Industry Andrei Zverev.

    Today, the development of electronic industry is carried out in accordance with the Strategy for the development of electronic industry in Russia for the period up to 2025 and the state program "Development of electronic and electronic industry in the years 2013-2025", as well as scientific and technical programs of the Union State.

    The main goal of the state policy in the field of electronic industry - increasing its level of technology to the world, the growth of competitiveness of products in the domestic and global markets, the press service of the holding "Roselektronika."

    According to the program in 2025 is planned to achieve the following main indicators of the level of 2011:

    - 2.7-fold increase in the share of domestic products in the world market and by 2.5 times - in the domestic market
    - the growth of labor productivity by 6.5 times;
    - increase by 3 times the amount of jobs created;
    - increase by 6.4 times the volume of production of the domestic electronic products in monetary terms;
    - increase 9 times earnings enterprises of electronic industry;
    - increase in exports by 3.9 times.


    Funding for the program from the federal budget is 175.1 billion rubles, extrabudgetary funding - 315.9 billion rubles.

    In a special segment electronics focuses on the development of strategically important technologies that define the appearance of promising models of weapons. In this case, the priority areas of development include: design and manufacture of radiation resistant electronic components; development and manufacture of microwave components; development of the design components that determine the key characteristics of weapons systems; microelectronic technology levels up to 0,022 / 0,020 nm; technology of three-dimensional integrated circuits.

    Discussed measures to support domestic microelectronics dealt mainly with customs procedures.

    Dmitry Medvedev at the meeting said that we can talk about simplifying import and export of spare parts and consumables microelectronics, instrumentation, process equipment, as well as, perhaps, and the abolition of import duties on the materials and equipment.

    In order to stimulate the Russian sector of the market will need to focus on the promotion of Russian civilian goods. "First of all we are talking about using them in the passport and visa documents, migration, transport, payment and other cards that Russian production of microchips used," - said Dmitry Medvedev.

    CEO of the holding "Roselektronika" Andrei Zverev said that increased production and tax incentives will help reduce the cost, and if the domestic industry will be able to compete successfully in a civil demand, for example by producing elements for medical equipment and communications equipment.

    http://rostec.ru/news/4514722



    ...But the true icing on the cake (which is in red text) is that they'll specifically heavily finance the modernization, innovation and development of strategically important electronics. In short, I'm talking about electronics designed to be heavily resistant to ECM, which will translate in to much more capable SAM'S, ABM's, vehicles, missiles with greater and greater resistance to jamming, spoofing, and other forms of ECM tactics! I know Viktor, and or GarryB is somewhere smiling, and chuckling at the idea that the current sanctions indirectly caused the Russian MIC to create significantly more capable products... lol1

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:01 am

    Here is the competition for you Seph! http://wccftech.com/arm-tsmc-reveal-16nm-finfet-heterogeneous-architecture-processor/

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:26 pm

    Why do I care? TMSC makes Russian processors too. MCST is a fabless facility hence it is about architecture. Your views of microprocessor technology is barbaric as you think more transistors is all that counts. Which isnt the case. Like I said, look up Elbrus 4C performance against core i7 in terms of GOST performance. Clearly gost was designed around elbrus processor and hence it outperformed a more transistor processor as i7, at only 700mhz.

    Just so you know, there is a reason why Fujitsu still makes processors, loongsong and VIA.  Specialization. But you probably already knew that.

    BTW, Elbrus wont have much competition once Intel is forced to stop selling in Russia. So MCST will have a full market available. As well, Epbrus architecture has many security features apparently that others dont, and can be used for other purposes. Hence why its used for military applications.

    s well: http://m.rbth.com/science_and_tech/2014/07/10/russian_microprocessor_firms_to_challenge_intel_and_amd_on_d_38095.html after 8C, they are working on a 16core processor below 20nm tech. So that should make you happy.

    As well: http://zoom.cnews.ru/publication/item/51820/3

    This proves that if a peice of software is optimized around a specific.architecture, that the processor can do better in performance than its raw power counterpart.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:49 pm; edited 3 times in total

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:38 pm

    http://infoglaz.ru/?p=49682

    Good article on 8C and Elbrus history.

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:51 pm

    BTW, russia now has the abilitay (or at least soon) to build machinery that makes semiconductors with a topology of 10nm. So in other words, they could effectively build a FAB that can build these processors. It is of course a rusnano/dutch jv.

    magnumcromagnon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 4468
    Points : 4659
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:21 pm

    sepheronx wrote:BTW, russia now has the abilitay (or at least soon) to build machinery that makes semiconductors with a topology of 10nm. So in other words, they could effectively build a FAB that can build these processors. It is of course a rusnano/dutch jv.

    What's your thoughts about the article I posted on the previous page?

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:38 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:BTW, russia now has the abilitay (or at least soon) to build machinery that makes semiconductors with a topology of 10nm. So in other words, they could effectively build a FAB that can build these processors. It is of course a rusnano/dutch jv.

    What's your thoughts about the article I posted on the previous page?

    What I think? Well, I think it will work but you wont see much export west of Russian microelectronics. While Mikran already exports, it is mostly that these are for domestic use. 2015 is when Russia will produce their own arm processor and that can be used for multiple of setups. What will Baikal make next? Dunno. But then in a year or two after, MCST will develop their next processor. So the funding in itself will help boost this. But what some others dont know is that it is the ministry of Industry and trade that is pushing for development of domestic semiconductors for local industries. So in the end, these products are being made/purchased for special purposes so many may not see the civil market. Maybe if MCST makes their own CISC processor then it can be in high demand. Baikal electronics will more than likely meet common civil market interests.

    Problem with starting in the semiconductor industry, you will either need to come up with a special item that others nees but cannot get, or make a product that is heavily competitive. When you dont have the same financial backing. Why MCST was able to develop a decent processor so quickly, was because they got a lot of funding to develop it. But still not on same record of Intel.

    So if they will fund these significantly more, guarantee they will be competitive. MCST proved they can do it, and maybe it is time to maybe move that company as a publicly owned or private rather than state run.

    But sanctions will help domestic industry. Commenters on RT are usually trolls so they will state Russia does not produce anything. Common myth. But as seen, Russia is producing tooling and automation industries to help local manufacturers be efficient. So who knows, the article may be right.

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:37 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Why do I care? TMSC makes Russian processors too. MCST is a fabless facility hence it is about architecture. Your views of microprocessor technology is barbaric as you think more transistors is all that counts. Which isnt the case. Like I said, look up Elbrus 4C performance against core i7 in terms of GOST performance. Clearly gost was designed around elbrus processor and hence it outperformed a more transistor processor as i7, at only 700mhz.

    Just so you know, there is a reason why Fujitsu still makes processors, loongsong and VIA.  Specialization. But you probably already knew that.

    BTW, Elbrus wont have much competition once Intel is forced to stop selling in Russia. So MCST will have a full market available. As well, Epbrus architecture has many security features apparently that others dont, and can be used for other purposes. Hence why its used for military applications.

    s well: http://m.rbth.com/science_and_tech/2014/07/10/russian_microprocessor_firms_to_challenge_intel_and_amd_on_d_38095.html after 8C, they are working on a 16core processor below 20nm tech. So that should make you happy.

    As well: http://zoom.cnews.ru/publication/item/51820/3

    This proves that if a peice of software is optimized around a specific.architecture, that the processor can do better in performance than its raw power counterpart.
    Transistors, cache, cores etc are only one part of the equation. I've said this a hundred times and don't understand why you think that... There are (literally) millions of different individual architectures and designs that go into a processor, along with the all-important aspect of optimization. This argument is reminiscent of a "Nvidia vs AMD" troll war... - Where the AMD lovers yell "OPENCL!!!!" and the Nvidia girls yell "BUT CUDA!!". One processor might be better than a different one at one thing, and that "different one" might be better at something else.

    Good ole' VIA. I drive by their (one of their) headquarters once a month or so.... Anyway, you just further proved my point. Processor A may be built for one thing, while processor B might be built for something else. 

    Does that matter? Russia's market is one thing, the international market is another... 

    That is a big improvement... However, they claim it will developed by 2018, when Intel is planning to release chips with performance in the Petaflops! - There is a chance that will be delayed, in which case the better-than-8C-chip might still be relevant. (They'd be on 10 nm by then, which isn't a huge improvement over 16 nm, so it has a good chance.)

    Hmm, and Western model aren't optimized? The problem is that the West got a large head start, and when it comes to technology, there is not such thing as coming back. That being said, that doesn't mean they can't be competitive.

    By the way, I've heard the 8C will be priced at $3000, it this true? If so, that would be its biggest downside. Intel's newest E5-2600 v3 series is cheaper, and look at its performance...


    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:29 pm

    Nah, that was 2C+ which uses dsp cores as well that a full system cost was a wopping $3000 but that is due to the fact the CPU itself is made in low numbers and only for radar technology.

    Btw, read that other article I posted about history of Elbrus. You will get a good understanding on how it works and where they came from and were they are going.

    As for Intel. I wouldnt put too much faith in its performance claims as neither they or amd ever give accurate measurements. Actually, mcst is the same. Cause their measurements are based upon their tests and specific software that may be programmed around that architecture. You see this for years.

    The article also goes around the cisc and risc. And as you may happen to know, vliw is another risk type, not cisc. So comparing intel and amd to mcst is comparing them to intel, loongsong, fujitsu, oracle... it is different ballpark. So it is MCST aiming to conpete with those groups rather than intel and amd. But that is also because you may never see mcst past cis countries or in west.

    Mike, do you know much about architectures (i had to learn this shit at school). Cause CISC is not optimized by nature. Hence why they rely on instruction sets while RISC is at software level. I know you're smart as you seem to grasp this better than most, but even the article states that the idea behind risc is a different ideology on how to do things. CISC can be good, no doubt but it becomes reliant on hardware level while risc is software.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:33 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Nah, that was 2C+ which uses dsp cores as well that a full system cost was a wopping $3000 but that is due to the fact the CPU itself is made in low numbers and only for radar technology.

    Btw, read that other article I posted about history of Elbrus. You will get a good understanding on how it works and where they came from and were they are going.

    As for Intel. I wouldnt put too much faith in its performance claims as neither they or amd ever give accurate measurements. Actually, mcst is the same. Cause their measurements are based upon their tests and specific software that may be programmed around that architecture. You see this for years.

    The article also goes around the cisc and risc. And as you may happen to know, vliw is another risk type, not cisc. So comparing intel and amd to mcst is comparing them to intel, loongsong, fujitsu, oracle... it is different ballpark. So it is MCST aiming to conpete with those groups rather than intel and amd. But that is also because you may never see mcst past cis countries or in west.
    Ahhh, ok... Any info on the cost of the 8C? Hopefully they can place it right below the E5, where it will be superior when it comes to performance-per-dollar etc. 

    I'm not actually a huge supporter of Intel, but rather AD (that being said, I'm currently running an OC'ed 3770K). I don't really doubt their performance numbers, but I don't really trust em' either. - If that makes any sense...

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:33 am

    It is apples to oranges.

    It hasto compete against Itanium and the like. In its field, these processors are just different. RISC but with two instructions - x86 and some sort of proprietary security.

    Price? God knows. Probably a lot unless they mass produce them. It will be used for hpc and workstations for various enterprises and goverenment. Like how Synergy OS is being built by various Russian companies.

    Intel will still reign supreme on the common consumer market as these may not be available only to specifics. That is the drawback of mcst.

    I myself prefer AMD. If only they just decided to drop bulldozer... but in the end, my next workstation will probabaly be a sparc. I worked with them before and prefered them over amd/intel. Also, boo windows. No real alternative though.

    If MCST would aim at basic consumer market, then chances are they would have just developed a CISC processor or arm instead. Baikal will be basic consumer market and it will just be an arm like you mentioned.

    No real major innovation, which sucks imo.

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:37 am

    sepheronx wrote:It is apples to oranges.

    It hasto compete against Itanium and the like. In its field, these processors are just different. RISC but with two instructions - x86 and some sort of proprietary security.

    Price? God knows. Probably a lot unless they mass produce them. It will be used for hpc and workstations for various enterprises and goverenment. Like how Synergy OS is being built by various Russian companies.

    Intel will still reign supreme on the common consumer market as these may not be available only to specifics. That is the drawback of mcst.

    I myself prefer AMD. If only they just decided to drop bulldozer... but in the end, my next workstation will probabaly be a sparc. I worked with them before and prefered them over amd/intel. Also, boo windows. No real alternative though.

    If MCST would aim at basic consumer market, then chances are they would have just developed a CISC processor or arm instead. Baikal will be basic consumer market and it will just be an arm like you mentioned.

    No real major innovation, which sucks imo.
    Yep....

    If it is really positioned up against Itanium, it should succed. - As mentioned before, Intel hasn't put much into Itanium for a couple years now. If they could just score a big deal with TSMC.... - Honestly, that would (AFAIK) be the only possible problem with the 8C program. TSMC has had trouble keeping up with the market place, thanks to GPU's and ARM etc. Thankfully, TSMC has been transitioning to smaller lithographing when it comes to demand, as ARM, AMD, and Apple begin moving onto 20 nm... - Let me add that this is an advantage of 28 nm, and that it still has the best power per dollar ratio of any lithography ever. TSMC will probably produce it for many more years to come, lowering the cost further. So far the production number has been low balled, but it depends on demand like anything else.

    Yeah, and one large reason why is marketing... Not kidding, when Joe Shmoe (here in the States) sees a computer powered by AMD, they scoff and head for the "Intel inside" stickers.

    Bulldozer was their biggest mistake yet, but they claim that they will dump it for a new K-based processor in the near future. The day that comes..... My rig has W7 and Ubuntu, which keeps me satisfied for sure!

    The "real" innovation will come in a decade or so. - Carbon, carbon, CARBON!!!

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:00 am

    I know Russian developers have been looking into carbon and well, alternatives to silicon. But it seems they are more interested in 3d designs. So things may be interesting in the future.

    What AMD has going for them is their APU. They played that very smart.

    Mike E
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2789
    Points : 2853
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:17 am

    sepheronx wrote:I know Russian developers have been looking into carbon and well, alternatives to silicon. But it seems they are more interested in 3d designs. So things may be interesting in the future.

    What AMD has going for them is their APU. They played that very smart.
    Yep, will be exciting to see what they have in store! - 3D memory looks great too...

    They did compromise their high-end chip "lineup" badly though... They put all this energy and money, never-mind time, into a product that still hasn't done anything for them!

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:24 am

    Mike E wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:I know Russian developers have been looking into carbon and well, alternatives to silicon. But it seems they are more interested in 3d designs. So things may be interesting in the future.

    What AMD has going for them is their APU. They played that very smart.
    Yep, will be exciting to see what they have in store! - 3D memory looks great too...

    They did compromise their high-end chip "lineup" badly though... They put all this energy and money, never-mind time, into a product that still hasn't done anything for them!

    Depends on which one. AMD I think pretty much gained the upper hand in the whole video game market (excluding Wii U which still uses powerpc). Both consoles use the Jaguar CPU and have to say, that in itself will give it the market boost for its processors.

    Yeah, the 3d circuitry is looking exciting. When I heard they are aiming for that, then I figured Russia made the right choice.

    BTW: http://marchmontnews.com/Finance-Business/Central-regions/20950-State-fund-seeks-develop-Russian-Apple.html

    I don't mind them trying, but what I hate is how they need to compare. Make their own "this or that" company alternative. Instead, they should just do it and aim at their own direction rather than eyeing the other. But it is good they are wanting to move that direction in industry.

    Vann7
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3227
    Points : 3351
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:19 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:BTW, russia now has the abilitay (or at least soon) to build machinery that makes semiconductors with a topology of 10nm. So in other words, they could effectively build a FAB that can build these processors. It is of course a rusnano/dutch jv.

    What's your thoughts about the article I posted on the previous page?

    Your Article is very good.. is a logical step that Russia should have done decades ago.. not now. No
    But anyway better late than never.. Smile

    Said in other words..what i think the article is about Russia Space Technology ,their satellites specifically ,
    Russia is now saying that 100% of its electronics will not longer use American or any western electronics for
    security ,and because of Sanctions. Russia makes the space rockets 100% but their satellites have been mostly foreigners..some of its electronics..  Radiation resistant electronics will be very important for space traveling ,with
    Russia space program.. if they plan to go to the moon and mars ,they will need radiation resistant electronics 100%
    made in Russia..  Because the west no longer can be trusted as reliable suppliers of anything.. and i do not see Russia relations improving with the west.. will only get worse by the time.. Because Americans will continue supporting their criminal politicians , ie.. George Bush 9/11 False flag Brother ,and Hitlery Clinton are the big names now sounding for US next elections..  How can a society be so stupid and careless for their future and not have a revolution already to overthrow their 2 party dictatorship is beyond understanding.  No

    Vann7
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3227
    Points : 3351
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:56 pm

    This is very nice.. Very Happy
    A 1,000 Mhz Processor /Laptop by Moscow Center of SPARC Technologies offered
    for military and industrial use.

    It's specs:


    HT-R1000 - MCST Elbrus laptop

    CPU - R1000
    Clock - 760-1000 MHz
    RAM - 4 GB
    VideoRAM - 16 MB
    Display - 15",1024x768
    2,5" SSD SATA - 32 GB or better
    Military hardware group - 1.10 (GOST RV 20.39.304-98)
    Class 2 protection against unauthorized access to the information
    GLONASS receiver integrated
    Power - integrated battery 8.8Ah, 7,4 V
    Dimensions - 372x338x82
    Weight - 10 kg or less


    Thats pretty much all you need for Security in any company ,for payroll employees ,storing state secrets of any technology ,intelligence services ,control of satellites in space ,control a nuclear reactor or launch an ICBM.  Have their own operating system designed by Russia but probably based on a custom Russian version version of Linux that is closed.

    This is why i laugh at the US claims of China "Stealing their defense industry secrets".. that ridiculous impossible
    if they have any decent Computer Engineers in their nation.. which they have. or any decent Network specialist.
    Computers can be as safe as you want it..

    Of course is only for mathematical operations and communications and for storing data in the laptop..
    Not for gaming or graphics.. but still is amazing technology ,that will love to have one for Christmas for
    experimenting with it and programming software. .. thumbsup

    But this is a very niche market ,very few nations needs that level of security. Only Major Powers..

    take a look at this beauty..  Very Happy



    if Russia can make a computer for heavy 3d graphics ,Film ,visualization and gaming with its software ,
    i'll take one .  Smile

    im surprised That the Russian semiconductor industry is more advanced  than i thought. Shocked
    They already have working Personal Computers for Industry use albeit still is really nice.  Very Happy

    What the hell is Russia waiting to take their computer industry to a new level?
    With its software and hardware Industry ? Is not like they need to start from zero or learn how to make a computer ,they already have them and not just shitty crap but very decent ones.  Smile  
    Is only for Industrial use and security still is very nice.. If they push on the software side and advertise
    their products better it could get many sales in companies and server industry.  

    interesting video ...


    ELBRUS Russia processor website..
    http://www.mcst.ru

    translation to english.. not sure if works...

    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.mcst.ru/&usg=ALkJrhiwNCT6PmAiO4WZPtcnGKfFHn50LQ

    There was a video on youtube of Elbrus processor running in emulation Windows 2,000.. was slow as hell..
    as any virtual emulation always does.. (it will be the same if an Intel processor try to emulate another graphic intensive operating system) but still is nice ,since could run windows software. Smile

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:19 pm

    Edit: oops, it is the R-1000, not the 2C+. I think they are stopping with the development of SPARC processors, unless they will in the future create another SPARC CPU (all based on v9) with far more power. But seems they are more interested in VLIW design rather than SPARC. SPARC is even worst at x86 emulation and quite outdated by other RISC designs.

    Information below about Elbrus 2C+:

    The processor itself is not bad, but it really is just a dual core Elbrus e2k processor at 500mhz with 4 Elvees DSP cores.  Purpose was to power multimedia based systems like Radar and information translation for the military.  That is the purpose of the DSP cores as they are significantly better than a standard processor at translating raw media data.

    The processor though is running off of older technology that makes it quite a bit behind the Elbrus 4C and soon 8C.  Also, its x86 instruction is very basic from what I heard thus it has major performance loss when it is emulating the x86 functions in Windows OS.  While Elbrus 4C has much less performance loss (something like 25% for Elbrus 4C compared to something like 40% to that of Elbrus 2C+).  These toughbooks were not meant to run Windows (the Monoblock and the All in One from Kraftway were tests more like it) and thus they run their own OS, which is a KNE OS called Elbrus OS: http://elbrus2k.wikidot.com/elbrus-operating-system

    Here is the OS that some major companies in Russia developing their own KNE os: http://marchmontnews.com/Technology-Innovation/Volga/20881-Russias-own-operating-system-expected-%E2%80%98oust-Windows.html

    Windows library takes advantage of instruction sets that are defined on CISC processors, hence they are what one would consider to be efficient for the OS compared to RISC processors that instructions are done on a software level, thus the OS needs to take advantage of the RISC processor for specific tasks (you can have out of order on a RISC that simulates similar to CISC processors), and that makes the translation between CPU and software much more efficient.  But, if it is not coded around it, as well it needs to be emulated, there is a major performance hit.  Hence Elbrus 2C+ in Windows (Khathi over at MP.net stated he saw it running a newer variant of Windows at a MAKS once and it was very speedy processor, capable of running windows very well).  But the thing is, whatever you will see these Elbrus processors running on, wont be on Windows.  It will either be its own KNE or BSD based OS.  There was this OS too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_OS which sounds promising and it is BSD based (like OSX and iOS is). but once again, it has to be developed around the processor/hardware in order to be efficient/take advantage of the architecture.

    Wherever you look, these specialized processors are running off of their own respective OS, in order to take advantage of the hardware.  For instance, Oracle has Solaris (also last known as SUN before it was bought out by Oracle) and it is a BSD based OS that takes advantage of its SPARC processors (Since Sun created the SPARC architecture).  IBM zOS/2, Fujitsu with its BS2000/OSD, Loongsong with its own Linux OS, etc.  This in turn allows a theoretically slower processor, seem to run faster than its counterpart, as the OS is specially designed around the architecture of the CPU/Hardware thus, making it very responsive to the instruction set available as well as the arch design.  Problem with this, it becomes less open, thus lack of third party development and huge consumption for.  Windows on the other hand uses specific instruction sets and library, which CISC processors these days (only two, Intel and AMD) take advantage of in their instruction sets, thus technically, Windows is a very open OS to build hardware around (well, open in that sense, I think you need to purchase licenses to develop for it on the hardware level as well).  But it isn't designed to a specific processor, and if one takes a look at Windows library management, it is piss poor (same with their update structure).  But nonetheless, Intel and AMD build their CPU around these specific instruction sets and come out with driver support or what not for these processors in Windows OS library so the OS can take advantage of the CPU's new instruction (if you notice, both Intel and AMD have all very similar instruction sets with some odd few here and there differences, that is due to copyright laws).  But if you look at AMD, Intel and Nvidia, especially in the graphical side of things, on Linux, they are piss poor.  Because that is lack of development on that sector for these processors/GPU's and lack of a proper library/driver support.

    If MCST wanted to make a processor to compete with Intel, much like Loongsong, Fujitsu, etc, they would have developed a CISC processor with similar instruction sets (or exact ones like SSE, which requires a license from Intel), then maybe they could.  But instead, they went the other route, which is cheaper and more effective for them - developing RISC based processors (or VLIW which is RISC, but a Very Long Instruction Word) and a specific OS to it.  Because these two groups meet specific needs.  Specialized field of processing for specialized development (things like HPC, Workstations that deal with advanced computational work like graphical design, Autocad, etc).  These type of fields are also good money makers.  But if MCST wants to get their processor out on the open civil market, they will have to find some company that is willing to develop an OS that is not only open, but also easy to program with, easy to function with and easy to set up, as well as also other software developers willing to make the software needed, in the same manner, that is in Windows.  The average person does not want to learn all the fandangled specials that may come with Elbrus CPU and its OS.  Instead, they want something easy to work with, and easy to obtain software for.  Microsoft also has the massive amounts of marketing as well as company support that gets their OS on the market, as well as their piss poor coded software to be used in almost every office (Microsoft Office, especially new ones, are total garbage and poorly coded.  But it is used in every major company.  Lotus Office and LibreOffice are both great pieces of open source office software that is barely used.  They are open source, meaning free as well (not having to pay $100 + for a office software) and other mail based software that acts like Outlook.  But in the end, these lack the marketing and many industries have already their mail servers and what not set up on something like MS exchange so changing it is pointless and costly for them.

    This is something I do not see happening unless MS bans Windows OS entirely in Russia.  Which to that effect would mean that people will just end up downloading it via torrent from other countries anyways.  As for obtaining the microprocessors like Intel and AMD, they would just end up purchasing from China through third party like private sales and what not.  That is how Iran and North Korea is still able to obtain Intel based processors for their computers/super computers, even though Iran develops their own SPARC processor as well.  Windows has just too much functionality (even if poorly designed and coded) and that takes advantage of the Intel and AMD CPU's.

    kvs
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2515
    Points : 2648
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  kvs on Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:48 pm

    What I would like to see is some serious benchmarking of fluid dynamics code on the Elbrus. All of these gigaflop and SPECfp tests are rinky dink
    sideshow distractions. I could care less about the integer performance of a processor intended for science and engineering. I am more than
    sure it can compile my Fortran 90 code fast enough. A good Fortran 90, 95, 2003, etc. compiler from MCST for the Elbrus is vital for the
    adoption and utility of the Elbrus CPU brand.

    You can throw as many cores as you want at a problem, but if there is no way for binaries to be compiled which use the features of the processors
    then it is all one big time waste. The Itanium comes with its own special optimizing compiler. Without this compiler the Itanium is worthless.

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:32 am

    It is some sort of Dynamic Binary translator. I too would like to see it.

    kvs
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2515
    Points : 2648
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  kvs on Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:00 am

    sepheronx wrote:It is some sort of Dynamic Binary translator.  I too would like to see it.

    MCST makes a lot of its binary translator. I would like to see it benchmarked but this is not what is needed for HPC.
    MCST needs to put out native compilers as well. Intel bought out the Digital Equipment Corp.'s Fortran compiler
    back in the 1990s since DEC's compiler was perhaps the best out there. Making sure there is full support for your
    architecture is key to market success. AMD made sure that the Portland Group compilers had full support and this
    helped it penetrate into the HPC market.

    When I talk about Fortran compilers it is because they are the backbone of HPC development and squeeze hardware
    performance for all it is worth. Not C or C++ compilers. In the Linux realm you have the excellent GCC compiler,
    but gfortran just does not have the optimizing ability to deliver quick execution compared to PGI or Intel compilers.

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7302
    Points : 7612
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:53 am

    All I am aware is that there is Fortron 90 compiler. But that is it for Elbrus. I don't know much else.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 7:37 pm


      Current date/time is Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:37 pm