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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:28 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Austin wrote:So who uses these processor in Russia ? Are all Government compulsary to use it ?

    What about Mother Board , Graphic Card etc , can we use AMD/Intel Motherboard for this ?

    Do they sell these processor in open market ?

    It was ordered by ministry of industry for specifically automation and industrial equipment. Kraftway makes computers from them and they make their own motherboards as it is a proprietary connection that isnt adjustable but soldered in (not like Intels socket 775,1055,1050,2022 or AMD AM3/3+). Graphics card I do not know but they may either use their own or a VIA based. Their next processor to that of the 8 core one, is a APU (where the gpu amd cpu are on the same die, much like intel atom and AMD's APU's like xenos.

    Kraftway is making the monocube and the all in one with the Elbrus for domestic market.

    Let's hope Russia can be self-sufficient in electronics in case of a technology embargo.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:24 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    Austin wrote:So who uses these processor in Russia ? Are all Government compulsary to use it ?

    What about Mother Board , Graphic Card etc , can we use AMD/Intel Motherboard for this ?

    Do they sell these processor in open market ?

    It was ordered by ministry of industry for specifically automation and industrial equipment. Kraftway makes computers from them and they make their own motherboards as it is a proprietary connection that isnt adjustable but soldered in (not like Intels socket 775,1055,1050,2022 or AMD AM3/3+). Graphics card I do not know but they may either use their own or a VIA based. Their next processor to that of the 8 core one, is a APU (where the gpu amd cpu are on the same die, much like intel atom and AMD's APU's like xenos.

    Kraftway is making the monocube and the all in one with the Elbrus for domestic market.

    Let's hope Russia can be self-sufficient in electronics in case of a technology embargo.

    Certain things they still import but had the chance to build domestically in the past. They hold domestic tech shows to promote the local industries (both private and public) in order to connect the enterprises together. I think Elbrus 8C development stemmed from T-platforms blacklisting year ago.

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Austin on Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:36 am

    Thanks Sepheronx.

    If Kraftway does build these machine and sell it to general customer , I am more than happy to buy one if they ship it to India.

    They should commodatise these Chips along Intel/AMD line and work with Mobo manuf that would support these CPU's

    How does Elburus-4C and 8C compare with Intel and AMD brands in performance ?
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:35 pm

    Hard to say as it isnt out yet. But in a Windows enviornment, I imagine performance to be poor. As many programs under windows take advantage of the various Intel and AMD instruction sets which fall under their IP and is protected (which can go out the window if they embargoed Russia on these other chips).

    Under linux (KNE or BSD) is where things can be competitive due to both being open sourced and majority of programs can be developed and redeveloped to take advantage of one architecture or another. 64Bit performance may not entirely be best, that is to be seen though. But a lot of applicatuons really do not take full advantage of 64bit OS. Any machine running these computers will be shipped with a linux distro.

    That being said, performance should be quite a bit higher than 2C depending on tasks. The dsp cores of 2c would have faired far better under real time media encoding and rendering due to dsp's are specialized, but this chips will have an L3 cache, DDR3 1600 and less important, 500mhz increase and 2 extra physical cores. Depending on the architecture, the core speed may not be major indicator to performance, and due to innefficiencies of coding, multicore may not be as beneficial besides specialized software (like autocad). I believe its a built in memory controller but not communicated through hypertransport, which I am surprised due to HT is opensource.

    8C is being developed specifically for HTC (supercomputing) enviornment, so performance will be huge but mostly in superscalar.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:25 am

    Could we see mass production of cost-effective AESA radars in the near-future with the coming of this development? One could only hope.

    KRET to invest RUB 58 billion in development
    In the next two years the Concern's companies will implement 192 new projects

    Between 2014-2016 KRET enterprises will implement 192 new projects. This allows to raise the output of innovative products by more than 75% during three years.

    Under this program of action in 2014 KRET will invest a total of RUB 20.9 billion in the modernization of the Concern's enterprises as well as into research and development. In 2015 another RUB 16.8 billion will be invested and in 2016 - RUB 20.3 billion.

    According to Concern’s CEO Nikolay Kolesov, KRET's program of action for 2014-2016 is oriented at the large-scale renovation of production facilities. Nikolay Kolesov reported, "We will implement innovations not only at the production stage, but also in the new product development stage.  This will allow us to offer systems and equipment to our partners that are able to compete effectively with foreign counterparts."

    According to him, this will help to boost sales and increase market share in priority market segments on both the domestic Russian market and abroad.

    The Concern will earmark most investments for the development of avionics and related electronics for military and civil aviation applications as well as for the development and production of radio-electronic warfare systems. More than 75% of all the Concern's investments will be allocated to the development of these product lines.

    A total of RUB 27.3 billion is planned to be invested in research and development over three years. During this period the Concern will offer the Russian army a number of new developments in Identification Fried or Foe (IFF) systems, electronic warfare systems, as well as promising avionics equipment prototypes for military and transport aircraft.

    The Concern's companies will continue to actively participate in federal target programs for the development of companies in the actual sector. Total investments under the FTP will be RUB 8.5 billion in 2014, and they will be increased to RUB 17.7 billion in 2016.

    The implementation of the investment program will allow the Concern to preserve its leading position as the main Russian developer and producer of avionics and related electronics, IFF transponders, electronic warfare equipment and airborne radar as well as to increase its sales proceeds from RUB 99.7 billion in 2014 to RUB 146 billion in 2016.

    KRET also plans to increase the number of innovative products of its own manufacturing by more than 75%, from RUB 28.9 billion in 2014 to RUB 48.2 billion in 2016.

    It also plans to increase the number of civilian products that it produces. KRET companies produce a wide range of products, from complex systems for metering electricity and controlling the operation of various systems for hydroelectric power stations to high-tech medical devices, instrumentation and modern household appliances.

    THE RADIO-ELECTRONIC TECHNOLOGY GROUP (KRET)   was founded by Rostec in 2009. It is the largest Russian holding in the radio-electronics industry. KRET unites 97 research institutes, design bureaus and production plants that are located in 28 federal entities across Russia. More than 66,000 people work at the Concern's
    enterprises.

    http://rostec.ru/en/news/4466
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:43 am

    Major investment and modernization of Russian electronic technological production capability:

    Ruselectronics has invested RUB 13 billion in developing of its enterprises
    The funds are allocated to modernization of production

    The holding company Ruselectronics, a division of the state corporation Rostec, continues to modernize its enterprises. During the period from 2011 to 2013 the holding company has invested more than RUB 13 billion in developing its production capacities. The main objective of these ongoing changes is improving the quality of electronic products and reducing their manufacturing costs.

    The holding company has embarked on 73 projects for renovating the technical equipment of its enterprises. The main production sites have been reconstructed, which has created a modern technological base for the electronic products manufacturing.

    The plants of the Research and Development enterprise Istok n.a. Shokin, Pulsar, Salut, Almaz, Thorium, Vostok, Telemechanics and others have all undergone a substantial technical modernization.

    At the same time, the holding company has reduced development costs for military equipment, thanks to a solution for outfitting weaponry and military equipment with new microwave devices. This can significantly reduce the development costs, production, and operation.

    The technical changes affect to a greater extent the enterprises that produce the microwave devices, including those that are based on solid-state technology. Basic equipment has been updated in these production shops.

    “Microwave electronics is one of the holding company’s key fields of work. This is a crucial technology necessary for the defense support of the country,” noted Andrei Zverev, CEO of the holding company Ruselectonics.

    In 2014, Ruselectronics will continue conducting a technical upgrade of its enterprises and developing a new technological base. The holding company plans to establish a long-term foundation for the microwave electronics development in Russia.

    The holding company  Ruselectronics unites enterprises of the electronics industry that specialize in the development and manufacturing of the electronic-component basis, electronic devices, materials and equipment for their production, as well as the microwave devices and semiconductor devices. The company was established in early 2009 on the base of the eponymous state holding and is a part of the state corporation Rostec.

    http://rostec.ru/en/news/4451

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    New 4-core microprocessor "Elbrus-4C"

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:57 am

    Microcomputer Module MB 77.07 - Russian response Raspberry Pi

    Reading the news of the ban on the supply of electronic components from the United States for individual producers in Russia, we decided to talk about single-board microcomputer Module CF 77.07, which was developed in the Russian science and technology center "Module" is based on one of the most productive Russian architecture processors ARM. We also look at setting up Linux-Debian distribution on this microcomputer.
    77.07 MW is based on system-on-chip K1879HB1YA, which is also the development of STC "module." Although K1879HB1YA scheme, primarily intended for use as a video decoder in different TV consoles, video surveillance devices and systems "smart home", he microcomputer 77.07 MB with this processor on board including positioned as a system for enthusiasts programmers and training fee for students. Thus, we can say that it is Russian analogue of Raspberry Pi. Let us briefly analyze the main characteristics of the processor K1879HB1YA, and then - and the board itself.
    System on Chip K1879HB1YA is based on two cores - ARM11 (ARM1176JZF-S) and an additional DSP-processor original architecture NeuroMatrix, which is included in the audio decoding unit.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Flanky on Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:12 pm

    Very promising Multicellular architecture from Russia: http://www.multiclet.com/
    Having single Chip capable of massive paralel computing is great.
    This chip isntead of having cores, is having cells. This cells are elemetary units in chips.
    Like memory registers and calculation units.
    This chip is capable of much more calculation in real time than standard western multicore CPUs.
    the only problem still remains is relative low frequency.
    But i hope they are well on their way to catch up with Nvidia, Intel and AMD.

    However there is still no sign of a 32 nm fab in Russia.
    This IS a neccessary step. State of the art electronics are CPUs and GPUs, not some 8bit/16bit microcontrollers.
    Russia have a good foundation of Microprocessor architecture and design, but they need manufacturing facilities.
    You cannot manufacture such critical components as CPUs that are an issue of natural security in Taiwan or outside the country in general.
    You have to have your own fabrication facility and not just one, but two atleast (for strategic pruposes).
    Building such a plant is not a matter of couple of months, but years and it is veeeery expensive.
    And they know they will HAVE to do it eventually.
    I hope they are not waiting for some sanctions or another blacklisting to come into effect to start even thinking about it.
    Because as i said, it takes years to built and relying on China is not a good option. China is intelligence hungry not just towards US but Russia as well, i would not be suprised having found backdoors in Chinese manufactured chips.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:11 pm

    Multiclet processors are specifically for specialized apps. Keydrives, satellites (this was recent) and microcontrollers. Its architecture is close to that of the Intel Itanium which are good number crunchers but not good in most others. This is a very modular variant.

    MCST makes microprocessors of 32/64 bit and their newest showcase this year is a quad core up to 1ghz and 65nm topology. Any ones for smaller topology is made in Taiwan.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  TR1 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:13 pm

    Turk1 wrote:Russian electronics are crap.  When was the last time you bought Russian computer, TV, or anything?  Turkey makes all this advanced and ships it to Europe, the most demanding technology customers.

    Yeah when I think of advanced electronics, Turkey is the name that comes to mind right away.

    lol.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:19 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Turk1 wrote:Russian electronics are crap.  When was the last time you bought Russian computer, TV, or anything?  Turkey makes all this advanced and ships it to Europe, the most demanding technology customers.

    Yeah when I think of advanced electronics, Turkey is the name that comes to mind right away.

    lol.

    Old post from 2009. But lol.

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:09 am

    Russia needs to compete with the west in everything if they want to become seen as an attractive market.. IF you look at things.. again and again and again.. every nation in eastern Europe or EuroAsia preffer the European Union and US.. not because of their "freedom" or "liberties" but because they are way more advanced and modern nations
    when it comes to technology for business or for civilians.  Russia is like a Giant factory that you can buy everything to develop technology..  and US and EU is like a Shopping Mall for people to buy already developed technology produced by them.  

    Russia needs to develop for God Sake a semiconductor Computer Industry.. Putin is eating shit for a decade buying
    computers from the west and software ready to spy in their business. They now planning to develop processors but only for government use..  No  

    Iphones ..is shameful to see Russia long lines for people to buy american hardware...when they could do better.
    Software.. even more inexcusable that Russia do not have an Operating System comparable to Windows 8 or Apple Leopard ,when even North Korea have one that is pretty decent and do not have all the Spy shit inside of american software. Game developing Industry , nearly doesn't exist either in Russia.. Is inexcusable that a nation like Canada with only 35 million citizens have one of the Giants in game industry world wide like Ubisoft ,and Russia have nothing that is world to mention. Movie industry ,Home theaters equipment , Audio.. etc.. the list doesnt end..
    They do have the capabilities to make state of the art military , but doing nothing on the technology for business and civilians use.

    Had Russia had at least a decent Semiconductor Industry that competes with the west , a decent Software Industry and a decent movie Industry , and heck even a music industry ..and their most important cities clean and not dirty ,then they could attract more nations to want to be like Russia. But so far ,what we see until now is countries that join Russia trade blocks because they have no choice. Since the west do not accept membership unless you give away your Sovereignty and territorial integrity and install NATO military bases.

    So in Summary Russia needs.. to compete in..
    Computers with Software Industry , Movie industry , Music industry ,Entertainment Industry and having decent Cars that everyone wants to buy will be a Plus.  Is pathetic for example and totally inexcusable   that in a hundred of years , Russia did not developed Civilians Planes that could compete with americans Boeing 747 ..and that now ,recently is that they compete with the SUkhoi Superjet 100.

    Russia needs an major Education Reform.. ,like Germany ,Brazil ,Cuba etc.. that is mandatory ,and its citizens are given all the tools to understand how any kind of technology is created..Everyone should be keep busy learning something or building technology.. from radios /TVs ,Audios ,Computers etc.. Thats the way Russia can become a
    real alternative to the west.. But for now the problem Russia have is that No one consider Russia as an alternative to USA or Europe that is integrated into american business. And this will not change not even if Russia modernize 100% its army and create an army that surpass in every way shape or form US and NATO combined. The only Thing Russia offer to others is cheap Gas and security and that can be debatable after how they have allowed their allies like Syria to be beaten so much.

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:52 am

    Vann, they have been building microprocessors for ages. Baikal electronics is coming up with its own ARM 8 core cortex processor and MCST has their Elbrus line (soon, 8C which is server grade processors). OS, well, there are multiple of them. There is Elbrus OS (Linux), Phantom OS (UNIX), and upcoming Synergy (Linux). Apples OS is simply another UNIX OS which is nothing amazing. Hardware aspect of it is not even American.

    Problem is, Russia has all this stuff being built but it comes down to cost, availability and as well, the demand. Problem with the competition is that the competition tries to strangle out other competitors and so you now got MS which pretty much all pieces of software works under. Intel with its processors are nothing amazing as CISC processors are only considered powerful as the fact that Windows and Linux OS works out of the box on these processors and run multiple of things but not efficiently compared to lets say RISC or MIPS. Thing is, they control the market. Russia's businesses need to show interest in investing in these processors from MCST (they make both RISC (SPARC) and VLIW with x86 instructions) and the Synergy OS as example. Good thing is, the Synergy OS is actually being developed by a consortium of industries to be able to deal with any issues regarding MS in their line of business, especially with sanctions, so they will develop the needed software for their needs. But what about the hardware? Well, technically Kraftway could set up a subsidiary in order to create specialized computers, much like how Apple computers are, in order to meed the demands of the market of business and personal needs, using the Elbrus processor. I mean, Kraftway makes motherboards now so the only thing holding back will be GPU and CPU. Crocus in Russia makes MRAM now (well, equipment was just recently bought from China so they are getting ready to make their own memory). So it all comes down to having someone to piece it all together and come up with a specialized PC. Technically, it would work quite well as most mac's back in the day were simply PowerPC RISC processors and a UNIX OS, and they sold like crazy. Apple then went to Intel simply because it was cheaper and they could also get into the market like dual booting. Processors from MCST can already do dual booting as there is x86 instructions, even if it isn't necessarily amazing in performance, but if they are able to get an OS like Synergy involved, and be able to program it around the Elbrus VLIW architecture and all software pretaining to it (while building patches/extensions for lets say video games to take some advantage of the CPU) in dual booting, then I can imagine they would end up with a very competitive product. But right now, they need to get software developers on track to make software that will take advantage of the processor in the OS development, and they need to actually get these processors in development.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:01 am

    sepheronx wrote:Vann, they have been building microprocessors for ages.  Baikal electronics is coming up with its own ARM 8 core cortex processor and MCST has their Elbrus line (soon, 8C which is server grade processors).  OS, well, there are multiple of them.  There is Elbrus OS (Linux), Phantom OS (UNIX), and upcoming Synergy (Linux).  Apples OS is simply another UNIX OS which is nothing amazing.  Hardware aspect of it is not even American.

    Problem is, Russia has all this stuff being built but it comes down to cost, availability and as well, the demand.  Problem with the competition is that the competition tries to strangle out other competitors and so you now got MS which pretty much all pieces of software works under.  Intel with its processors are nothing amazing as CISC processors are only considered powerful as the fact that Windows and Linux OS works out of the box on these processors and run multiple of things but not efficiently compared to lets say RISC or MIPS.  Thing is, they control the market.  Russia's businesses need to show interest in investing in these processors from MCST (they make both RISC (SPARC) and VLIW with x86 instructions) and the Synergy OS as example.  Good thing is, the Synergy OS is actually being developed by a consortium of industries to be able to deal with any issues regarding MS in their line of business, especially with sanctions, so they will develop the needed software for their needs.  But what about the hardware?  Well, technically Kraftway could set up a subsidiary in order to create specialized computers, much like how Apple computers are, in order to meed the demands of the market of business and personal needs, using the Elbrus processor.  I mean, Kraftway makes motherboards now so the only thing holding back will be GPU and CPU.  Crocus in Russia makes MRAM now (well, equipment was just recently bought from China so they are getting ready to make their own memory).  So it all comes down to having someone to piece it all together and come up with a specialized PC.  Technically, it would work quite well as most mac's back in the day were simply PowerPC RISC processors and a UNIX OS, and they sold like crazy.  Apple then went to Intel simply because it was cheaper and they could also get into the market like dual booting.  Processors from MCST can already do dual booting as there is x86 instructions, even if it isn't necessarily amazing in performance, but if they are able to get an OS like Synergy involved, and be able to program it around the Elbrus VLIW architecture and all software pretaining to it (while building patches/extensions for lets say video games to take some advantage of the CPU) in dual booting, then I can imagine they would end up with a very competitive product.  But right now, they need to get software developers on track to make software that will take advantage of the processor in the OS development, and they need to actually get these processors in development.
    Well, I'm going to guess that he means "compared with the West" or something like that... While Russia is still building processors with lithographies over 40 nm+ (excluding the ARM design) the West (namely Intel, AMD, and IBM) are slowly but surely moving over to sub-20 nm FinFET and beyond. Heck, IBM has already produced carbon-based processors with 50,000 transistors! Not to say that Russia "doesn't have" a microprocessing industry, it simply is (admittedly) far behind its competitors. - I live right outside of Silicon Valley, so I know a lot of techies that share a similar opinion on the matter...
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:45 am

    Mike E wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Vann, they have been building microprocessors for ages.  Baikal electronics is coming up with its own ARM 8 core cortex processor and MCST has their Elbrus line (soon, 8C which is server grade processors).  OS, well, there are multiple of them.  There is Elbrus OS (Linux), Phantom OS (UNIX), and upcoming Synergy (Linux).  Apples OS is simply another UNIX OS which is nothing amazing.  Hardware aspect of it is not even American.

    Problem is, Russia has all this stuff being built but it comes down to cost, availability and as well, the demand.  Problem with the competition is that the competition tries to strangle out other competitors and so you now got MS which pretty much all pieces of software works under.  Intel with its processors are nothing amazing as CISC processors are only considered powerful as the fact that Windows and Linux OS works out of the box on these processors and run multiple of things but not efficiently compared to lets say RISC or MIPS.  Thing is, they control the market.  Russia's businesses need to show interest in investing in these processors from MCST (they make both RISC (SPARC) and VLIW with x86 instructions) and the Synergy OS as example.  Good thing is, the Synergy OS is actually being developed by a consortium of industries to be able to deal with any issues regarding MS in their line of business, especially with sanctions, so they will develop the needed software for their needs.  But what about the hardware?  Well, technically Kraftway could set up a subsidiary in order to create specialized computers, much like how Apple computers are, in order to meed the demands of the market of business and personal needs, using the Elbrus processor.  I mean, Kraftway makes motherboards now so the only thing holding back will be GPU and CPU.  Crocus in Russia makes MRAM now (well, equipment was just recently bought from China so they are getting ready to make their own memory).  So it all comes down to having someone to piece it all together and come up with a specialized PC.  Technically, it would work quite well as most mac's back in the day were simply PowerPC RISC processors and a UNIX OS, and they sold like crazy.  Apple then went to Intel simply because it was cheaper and they could also get into the market like dual booting.  Processors from MCST can already do dual booting as there is x86 instructions, even if it isn't necessarily amazing in performance, but if they are able to get an OS like Synergy involved, and be able to program it around the Elbrus VLIW architecture and all software pretaining to it (while building patches/extensions for lets say video games to take some advantage of the CPU) in dual booting, then I can imagine they would end up with a very competitive product.  But right now, they need to get software developers on track to make software that will take advantage of the processor in the OS development, and they need to actually get these processors in development.
    Well, I'm going to guess that he means "compared with the West" or something like that... While Russia is still building processors with lithographies over 40 nm+ (excluding the ARM design) the West (namely Intel, AMD, and IBM) are slowly but surely moving over to sub-20 nm FinFET and beyond. Heck, IBM has already produced carbon-based processors with 50,000 transistors! Not to say that Russia "doesn't have" a microprocessing industry, it simply is (admittedly) far behind its competitors. - I live right outside of Silicon Valley, so I know a lot of techies that share a similar opinion on the matter...

    Depends. When you say behind, what is the general prospect of these lower nm processors? Elbrus 8C will be 28nm processing BTW. But lets move away from that for a second. Architecture is very important. Very important. You could throw together a system consisting a ridiculous amount of transistors, but what good is that if the software does not take advantage of the architecture? IBM can create amazing processors with its powerPC but even if you have lower topology and increased transistor count, it is pointless if the architecture itself is not that good. And sorry to say, but IBM's powerPC processor architecture is garbage. Only company left that is willing to work with it is pretty much some odd IBM mainframe system (what I use at work) or Nintendo with their powerpc processor in their console. Outside of that, majority has dropped it. When my dad worked for IBM back in the 70's, according to him, their wealth is generated by leasing hardware and not really creating it.

    Far behind is a stretch of a term. Let me tell you, my AMD Thuban 6 core at 45nm lithography is a hell of a lot better than the newer Bulldozer and Piledriver AMD processors which operate at 32nm tech.

    Elbrus 8C, which is an 8 core VLIW processor running under 28nm tech and x86 added instruction, is a very impressive processor. Actually, MCST is having far more success in its VLIW processor design architecture in terms of lower wattage per performance compared to Intel's VLIW processor, the Itanium line. While Chinese manufacturer, Loongsong, is working on its MIPS processor with x86 added instruction There are competitors, it just lack of business interest.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:33 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Vann, they have been building microprocessors for ages.  Baikal electronics is coming up with its own ARM 8 core cortex processor and MCST has their Elbrus line (soon, 8C which is server grade processors).  OS, well, there are multiple of them.  There is Elbrus OS (Linux), Phantom OS (UNIX), and upcoming Synergy (Linux).  Apples OS is simply another UNIX OS which is nothing amazing.  Hardware aspect of it is not even American.

    Problem is, Russia has all this stuff being built but it comes down to cost, availability and as well, the demand.  Problem with the competition is that the competition tries to strangle out other competitors and so you now got MS which pretty much all pieces of software works under.  Intel with its processors are nothing amazing as CISC processors are only considered powerful as the fact that Windows and Linux OS works out of the box on these processors and run multiple of things but not efficiently compared to lets say RISC or MIPS.  Thing is, they control the market.  Russia's businesses need to show interest in investing in these processors from MCST (they make both RISC (SPARC) and VLIW with x86 instructions) and the Synergy OS as example.  Good thing is, the Synergy OS is actually being developed by a consortium of industries to be able to deal with any issues regarding MS in their line of business, especially with sanctions, so they will develop the needed software for their needs.  But what about the hardware?  Well, technically Kraftway could set up a subsidiary in order to create specialized computers, much like how Apple computers are, in order to meed the demands of the market of business and personal needs, using the Elbrus processor.  I mean, Kraftway makes motherboards now so the only thing holding back will be GPU and CPU.  Crocus in Russia makes MRAM now (well, equipment was just recently bought from China so they are getting ready to make their own memory).  So it all comes down to having someone to piece it all together and come up with a specialized PC.  Technically, it would work quite well as most mac's back in the day were simply PowerPC RISC processors and a UNIX OS, and they sold like crazy.  Apple then went to Intel simply because it was cheaper and they could also get into the market like dual booting.  Processors from MCST can already do dual booting as there is x86 instructions, even if it isn't necessarily amazing in performance, but if they are able to get an OS like Synergy involved, and be able to program it around the Elbrus VLIW architecture and all software pretaining to it (while building patches/extensions for lets say video games to take some advantage of the CPU) in dual booting, then I can imagine they would end up with a very competitive product.  But right now, they need to get software developers on track to make software that will take advantage of the processor in the OS development, and they need to actually get these processors in development.
    Well, I'm going to guess that he means "compared with the West" or something like that... While Russia is still building processors with lithographies over 40 nm+ (excluding the ARM design) the West (namely Intel, AMD, and IBM) are slowly but surely moving over to sub-20 nm FinFET and beyond. Heck, IBM has already produced carbon-based processors with 50,000 transistors! Not to say that Russia "doesn't have" a microprocessing industry, it simply is (admittedly) far behind its competitors. - I live right outside of Silicon Valley, so I know a lot of techies that share a similar opinion on the matter...

    Depends.  When you say behind, what is the general prospect of these lower nm processors?  Elbrus 8C will be 28nm processing BTW.  But lets move away from that for a second. Architecture is very important.  Very important.  You could throw together a system consisting a ridiculous amount of transistors, but what good is that if the software does not take advantage of the architecture?  IBM can create amazing processors with its powerPC but even if you have lower topology and increased transistor count, it is pointless if the architecture itself is not that good.  And sorry to say, but IBM's powerPC processor architecture is garbage.  Only company left that is willing to work with it is pretty much some odd IBM mainframe system (what I use at work) or Nintendo with their powerpc processor in their console.  Outside of that, majority has dropped it.  When my dad worked for IBM back in the 70's, according to him, their wealth is generated by leasing hardware and not really creating it.

    Far behind is a stretch of a term.  Let me tell you, my AMD Thuban 6 core at 45nm lithography is a hell of a lot better than the newer Bulldozer and Piledriver AMD processors which operate at 32nm tech.  

    Elbrus 8C, which is an 8 core VLIW processor running under 28nm tech and x86 added instruction, is a very impressive processor.  Actually, MCST is having far more success in its VLIW processor design architecture in terms of lower wattage per performance compared to Intel's VLIW processor, the Itanium line.  While Chinese manufacturer, Loongsong, is working on its MIPS processor with x86 added instruction  There are competitors, it just lack of business interest.
    Architecture and just about everything else is important in a CPU. 28 nm is great, but Intel is already talking about 16 nm FinFET (ARM architecture sort of ruins the idea of it being "Russian" even if the design is modified). 50,000 tansistors is a miserable amount, the important part is carbon. PowerPC is garbage, hence the reason it isn't used. Nintendo now uses AMD, so it is long gone. (Keep in mind that IBM is now more of a researching company rather than a OEM.)

    The Thuban is roughly equivalent to the (now old) FX-6200, which is far off from both AMD and Intel's newer models. Bulldozer was the biggest mistake AMD ever made, I learned this the hard way when I invested in them...
     
    Not that I don't think the Elbrus 8C is behind, but it is a server processor! - The Itanium is now (by Intel standards) outdated. The newer Xeon models put it to shame. 

    My point is simple, Russia doesn't have the microprocessor industry that the US has, and probably never will as long as the US doesn't crash... The day I hear about sub-16 nm based architectures and the production of Carbon, is the day they they've finally gotten close to catching up...
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:56 pm

    You heard of 16nm but you have not seen.  So cannot count it yet.  And Nintendo's wii U uses a powerpc based RISC processor codenamed Espresso.  Itanium line is still being worked on by Intel as Intel is still hoping to get more out of the VLIW design in server grade.  Xeons and Itaniums were being built side by side for years and you can still get Itanium systems through HP (We have them at my work as well).  Problem is, Intel is now taking a back seat in its development and just continuing on with its CISC XEON.  Which, both are two different systems (CISC vs VLIW).  You are simply repeating the old concept that higher transistor count and topology = more advanced technology, which is far from the case and just outright wrong.  And no, my Thuban can outdo pretty much most of the Bulldozer core AMD processors, and it was AMD's last real good processor.  

    Just look at Pentium 3/Pentium M vs Woodcrest back in the day.  Woodcrest being newer, having significant more transistors and more pipelines.  Yet, it was garbage compared to the Pentium 3 and its mobile processor for years.  Actually, the whole Pentium line afterwards were garbage and so they had to go back to the old concept of Pentium 3/M when developing the first Intel Core Duo and Core 2 Duo processors.

    Marketing is key here, and that is what these companies are good at. They will state we are the best and most advanced in order to sell. But I can see that even the Loongson processors are very impressive and would make a good competitor. But they are none existent in terms of market export and marketing in general.

    As well, ARM processor tech is simply another RISC processor development. Even if Russia is developing it, at least they will gain the mobile market which is used worldwide even if ARM architecture was first British. And you can also thank Russian engineers working for Intel (former MCST employees as Babayan sold off part of MCST to Intel years ago) for its multicore design.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  kvs on Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:54 pm

    16 nm is getting close to the 10 nm scale where quantum leakage renders IC designs useless. Don't expect 16 nm devices soon or until they change
    the IC geometry to reduce cross-talk.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:04 pm

    sepheronx wrote:You heard of 16nm but you have not seen.  So cannot count it yet.  And Nintendo's wii U uses a powerpc based RISC processor codenamed Espresso.  Itanium line is still being worked on by Intel as Intel is still hoping to get more out of the VLIW design in server grade.  Xeons and Itaniums were being built side by side for years and you can still get Itanium systems through HP (We have them at my work as well).  Problem is, Intel is now taking a back seat in its development and just continuing on with its CISC XEON.  Which, both are two different systems (CISC vs VLIW).  You are simply repeating the old concept that higher transistor count and topology = more advanced technology, which is far from the case and just outright wrong.  And no, my Thuban can outdo pretty much most of the Bulldozer core AMD processors, and it was AMD's last real good processor.  

    Just look at Pentium 3/Pentium M vs Woodcrest back in the day.  Woodcrest being newer, having significant more transistors and more pipelines.  Yet, it was garbage compared to the Pentium 3 and its mobile processor for years.  Actually, the whole Pentium line afterwards were garbage and so they had to go back to the old concept of Pentium 3/M when developing the first Intel Core Duo and Core 2 Duo processors.

    Marketing is key here, and that is what these companies are good at.  They will state we are the best and most advanced in order to sell.  But I can see that even the Loongson processors are very impressive and would make a good competitor.  But they are none existent in terms of market export and marketing in general.

    As well, ARM processor tech is simply another RISC processor development.  Even if Russia is developing it, at least they will gain the mobile market which is used worldwide even if ARM architecture was first British.  And you can also thank Russian engineers working for Intel (former MCST employees as Babayan sold off part of MCST to Intel years ago) for its multicore design.
    TSMC has been producing 16 nam FinFET for some time now, even though it is just a FinFET it is still a big deal... In fact, they just built the first 16 nm FinFET based Cortex-A57! My bad on the Nintendo, I mixed up its CPU and GPU. The Itanium line still exists, but it has been left in the dust by Xeon, it is no longer a member of Intel's super high-end server lineup. Ughhhh, Intel simply follows Moore's law, and that has had amazing results for them. Switching to a totally different ideology from what works great now could be disastrous. - They possibly have the most brain power of any tech company, they know what that are doing... The K-10 architecture was great for its day, but there is no doubt it has been surpassed... As mentioned before, the Thuban is equivalent to a two year old FX-6200. AMD has a lot ahead of us, I'm hoping for the return of "K" based processors. 

    As you mentioned, lithography and the number of transistors isn't all that makes a processor. That problem with the Woodcrest was its architecture, nothing else... 
     
    Marketing is great, but actual performance is the best...

    True, but I'd rather see Russia building a completely Russian designed processor, not one directly based in the West... Building ARM for servers is great, but there will be lots of competition from both AMD and Intel.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:22 pm

    And of course in a thread about Uzbekistan, we of course start talking about computer microprocessors.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:10 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:You heard of 16nm but you have not seen.  So cannot count it yet.  And Nintendo's wii U uses a powerpc based RISC processor codenamed Espresso.  Itanium line is still being worked on by Intel as Intel is still hoping to get more out of the VLIW design in server grade.  Xeons and Itaniums were being built side by side for years and you can still get Itanium systems through HP (We have them at my work as well).  Problem is, Intel is now taking a back seat in its development and just continuing on with its CISC XEON.  Which, both are two different systems (CISC vs VLIW).  You are simply repeating the old concept that higher transistor count and topology = more advanced technology, which is far from the case and just outright wrong.  And no, my Thuban can outdo pretty much most of the Bulldozer core AMD processors, and it was AMD's last real good processor.  

    Just look at Pentium 3/Pentium M vs Woodcrest back in the day.  Woodcrest being newer, having significant more transistors and more pipelines.  Yet, it was garbage compared to the Pentium 3 and its mobile processor for years.  Actually, the whole Pentium line afterwards were garbage and so they had to go back to the old concept of Pentium 3/M when developing the first Intel Core Duo and Core 2 Duo processors.

    Marketing is key here, and that is what these companies are good at.  They will state we are the best and most advanced in order to sell.  But I can see that even the Loongson processors are very impressive and would make a good competitor.  But they are none existent in terms of market export and marketing in general.

    As well, ARM processor tech is simply another RISC processor development.  Even if Russia is developing it, at least they will gain the mobile market which is used worldwide even if ARM architecture was first British.  And you can also thank Russian engineers working for Intel (former MCST employees as Babayan sold off part of MCST to Intel years ago) for its multicore design.
    TSMC has been producing 16 nam FinFET for some time now, even though it is just a FinFET it is still a big deal... In fact, they just built the first 16 nm FinFET based Cortex-A57! My bad on the Nintendo, I mixed up its CPU and GPU. The Itanium line still exists, but it has been left in the dust by Xeon, it is no longer a member of Intel's super high-end server lineup. Ughhhh, Intel simply follows Moore's law, and that has had amazing results for them. Switching to a totally different ideology from what works great now could be disastrous. - They possibly have the most brain power of any tech company, they know what that are doing... The K-10 architecture was great for its day, but there is no doubt it has been surpassed... As mentioned before, the Thuban is equivalent to a two year old FX-6200. AMD has a lot ahead of us, I'm hoping for the return of "K" based processors. 

    As you mentioned, lithography and the number of transistors isn't all that makes a processor. That problem with the Woodcrest was its architecture, nothing else... 
     
    Marketing is great, but actual performance is the best...

    True, but I'd rather see Russia building a completely Russian designed processor, not one directly based in the West... Building ARM for servers is great, but there will be lots of competition from both AMD and Intel.

    A 16nm RISC processor mostly limited to mobile devices....OK

    Performance is good for Intel and AMD as they are CISC which Windows takes advantage of.  Intel does have a lot of money, manpower and what not.  But that is due to the fact that they are a large company now and can market the crap out of their hardware.  Intel has said they are committed to the Itanium line as it is now working with HP directly.  No way that Thuban is equivalent of an FX-6200.  that processor was garbage.

    As for the whole Baikal making ARM for servers, I don't really know much about that really other than I think it is to gain the mobile market.  Cause if anything, the Elbrus 8C would be key for T-Platforms (Owner of Baikal electronics) in making supercomputers.  That alone would bring in significant money to MCST to further its development to then be able to create even more powerful processors.

    Edit: Yeah, Flaming is right, we gotta stop this. Time to go back to Russia section of the forums for further discussion.
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    Russian Semiconductor and Processing Technology

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:40 pm

    I figure I would create this thread so that we can bypass any criticism for posting such info in other threads where they do not belong.

    Quick breakdown of Russian Microprocessors and development: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_microprocessors

    MCST:

    Elbrus 2000 — implements VLIW architecture, 300 MHz clock rate, developed by MCST
    Elbrus-S
    Elbrus-2C+
    Elbrus-8C
    MCST-R150
    MCST-R500
    MCST-R500S
    MCST-R1000
    MCST-4R — 64-bit, 4-core, 2w in-order superscalar, implements SPARC V9 instruction set architecture (ISA), 1000 MHz clock rate,developed by MCST
    ELVEES

    ELVEES Multicore - multicore hybrid of RISC and DSP
    1892VM3T, (Russian: 1892ВМ3Т (MC-12)) - 1 RISC core + 1 DSP core ELcore-14
    1892VM2JA, (Russian: 1892ВМ2Я (MC-24)) - 1 RISC core + 1 DSP ELcore-24
    1892VM5JA, (Russian: 1892ВМ5Я (МС-0226, ЦПОС-02)) - 1 RISC core + 2 DSP cores (ELcore-26)
    1892VM4JA, (Russian: 1892ВМ4Я (MC-0226G, МЦОС)) - 1 RISC core + 2 DSP cores (ELcore-26)
    NVCom-01
    NVCom-02 in versions 1892VM11YA (1892ВМ11Я, NVCom-02) and 1892VM2YA (1892ВМ10Я, NVCom-02T)
    NIISI:

    KOMDIV-32 — 32-bit, implements the MIPS I instruction set architecture (ISA), compatible with MIPS R3000, 90 MHz clock rate
    KOMDIV-64 (1890VM5) — 64-bit, 2way in-order superscalar, implements the MIPS IV instruction set architecture (ISA), 350 MHz clock rate
    KOMDIV128-RIO - coprocessor
    NTC Module

    NeuroMatrix
    NM6403
    NM6404
    NMC - 64-bit RISC/DSP
    NMRC - 32/64-bit RISC
    Multiclet

    MultiClet P1 - Multicellular
    MultiClet R1 - Multicellular, dynamically reconfigurable

    Any additional information on others would be nice.

    What we know so far in development:
    - Baikal electronics (subsidiary of T-Platforms) is making their own 64bit ARM cortex CPU on 28nm technology - Link 1
    - MCST will at the end of this year test their 8 core Elbrus 8C VLIW microprocessor which is 28nm as well with hardware support for library x86 support. 24 instructions per cycle and apparently 250 GFLOPS per processor which will be the usual 4 processors per board. Of course, GFLOPS performance really determines based upon the environment. - Link 1
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:48 pm

    The concept behind this may not have anything to do to compete with Intel and AMD outright as Intel technically owns the market (they have the money, and the facilities in multiple countries, including Russia). But it is to give Russia the option to move away from the standard Intel and AMD. In reality, majority of the home user uses their machine for office work, internet use and basic gaming. Generally, majority of gaming is done on lets say a game console with PC just slowly catching up again. Technically, the Elbrus 2C+ or 4C would actually be more than enough for any individual to run office tasks and basic home tasks. In terms of other functions, not much is well known. Problem is, the lack of software development for it. As tested in the cnews article regarding Elbrus 4C, it is semi slow against the Intel Core i7 processor but in GOST, it outperformed it quite well. But that is because GOST takes advantage of the Elbrus architecture thus giving it that edge. If more software was developed for the Elbrus architecture, gaurantee it would serve a far better purpose. But that is the one problem - availability of the hardware and lack of software. These processors are technically meant for server grade enviornment which in that case, we are awaiting for full production to take place before anything can be said and done. Even at that, I have no idea as to when they become readily available and who will sell it. Kraftway I know is usually the partner for MCST to release the hardware for it. But on their site, I cannot find anything as Elbrus 2C+ was initially designed for radar systems and 2SM, 4C and 8C are currently being worked on/tested by MCST.

    Baikal electronics said they are working on their own ARM cortex processor. This is good as it will allow them to gain access to the Android world with their own processor and since the Android OS is used worldwide, it would make it much easier to streamline any production on it to other systems using similar architecture. Good that they are doing it themselves. Bad as it isn't their own design. But that is only the beginning of it, as it was said that this is the first of their own processors. So maybe if it becomes successful, they will openly compete against MCST for the microprocessing industry of Russia.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:12 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:You heard of 16nm but you have not seen.  So cannot count it yet.  And Nintendo's wii U uses a powerpc based RISC processor codenamed Espresso.  Itanium line is still being worked on by Intel as Intel is still hoping to get more out of the VLIW design in server grade.  Xeons and Itaniums were being built side by side for years and you can still get Itanium systems through HP (We have them at my work as well).  Problem is, Intel is now taking a back seat in its development and just continuing on with its CISC XEON.  Which, both are two different systems (CISC vs VLIW).  You are simply repeating the old concept that higher transistor count and topology = more advanced technology, which is far from the case and just outright wrong.  And no, my Thuban can outdo pretty much most of the Bulldozer core AMD processors, and it was AMD's last real good processor.  

    Just look at Pentium 3/Pentium M vs Woodcrest back in the day.  Woodcrest being newer, having significant more transistors and more pipelines.  Yet, it was garbage compared to the Pentium 3 and its mobile processor for years.  Actually, the whole Pentium line afterwards were garbage and so they had to go back to the old concept of Pentium 3/M when developing the first Intel Core Duo and Core 2 Duo processors.

    Marketing is key here, and that is what these companies are good at.  They will state we are the best and most advanced in order to sell.  But I can see that even the Loongson processors are very impressive and would make a good competitor.  But they are none existent in terms of market export and marketing in general.

    As well, ARM processor tech is simply another RISC processor development.  Even if Russia is developing it, at least they will gain the mobile market which is used worldwide even if ARM architecture was first British.  And you can also thank Russian engineers working for Intel (former MCST employees as Babayan sold off part of MCST to Intel years ago) for its multicore design.
    TSMC has been producing 16 nam FinFET for some time now, even though it is just a FinFET it is still a big deal... In fact, they just built the first 16 nm FinFET based Cortex-A57! My bad on the Nintendo, I mixed up its CPU and GPU. The Itanium line still exists, but it has been left in the dust by Xeon, it is no longer a member of Intel's super high-end server lineup. Ughhhh, Intel simply follows Moore's law, and that has had amazing results for them. Switching to a totally different ideology from what works great now could be disastrous. - They possibly have the most brain power of any tech company, they know what that are doing... The K-10 architecture was great for its day, but there is no doubt it has been surpassed... As mentioned before, the Thuban is equivalent to a two year old FX-6200. AMD has a lot ahead of us, I'm hoping for the return of "K" based processors. 

    As you mentioned, lithography and the number of transistors isn't all that makes a processor. That problem with the Woodcrest was its architecture, nothing else... 
     
    Marketing is great, but actual performance is the best...

    True, but I'd rather see Russia building a completely Russian designed processor, not one directly based in the West... Building ARM for servers is great, but there will be lots of competition from both AMD and Intel.

    A 16nm RISC processor mostly limited to mobile devices....OK

    Performance is good for Intel and AMD as they are CISC which Windows takes advantage of.  Intel does have a lot of money, manpower and what not.  But that is due to the fact that they are a large company now and can market the crap out of their hardware.  Intel has said they are committed to the Itanium line as it is now working with HP directly.  No way that Thuban is equivalent of an FX-6200.  that processor was garbage.

    As for the whole Baikal making ARM for servers, I don't really know much about that really other than I think it is to gain the mobile market.  Cause if anything, the Elbrus 8C would be key for T-Platforms (Owner of Baikal electronics) in making supercomputers.  That alone would bring in significant money to MCST to further its development to then be able to create even more powerful processors.

    Edit: Yeah, Flaming is right, we gotta stop this.  Time to go back to Russia section of the forums for further discussion.
    Still 16 nm... Intel will have 16 nm and below within a couple of years on desktop CPU's.

    If they are so devoted to Itanium, why did they leave it behind? They have a single model in the Itanium line up...  Thuban = FX-6200 *when it comes to performance*.

    Agreed, but the market for the 8C is limited and very competitive. 

    Yep....
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:24 pm

    Doubt we will see it anytime soon. And like most iterations, it will be a 10% or less performance increase like plenty times before.

    HTC, mainframe market is huge. Dont underestimate it as it is what is keeping IBM alive. 8C wont face much competition as SPARC is outdated and only real conpetitor is Intel after the fact AMD is moving to ARM for their next Opteron. As well, after US black listed T-Platforms, a successful HPC company, then there was this push. As well as finding back doors in cpu design.

    Past Itanium was just a shy of 2 years ago. It isnt like cisc processors were you come up with some lousy upgrade and piss poor socket design every 6 months. It is an HP and Intel collaberation which is working well for HP apparently.

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

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