Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Share
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3107
    Points : 3228
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  kvs on Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:53 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I was reading comments section on sdelanounas.ru on the computer using the baikal cup and good God are people negative and making crap up. They say all components are Chinese and that nothing is Russian and import substitution is all security and none for commercial, etc etc etc. I think the website got jacked to because I don't recognize any of the posters.

    These retards can't tell the difference between Taiwan and China. Also, these retards are not aware that in the USA most server components are manufactured in
    China by US and Taiwanese contractors.

    http://appleapple.top/chip-for-export-the-developers-of-processors-baikal-told-how-going-to-compete-with-intel/

    Meanwhile Russian chip fabricators are improving their process capability:

    http://marchmontnews.com/Technology-Innovation/Central-regions/18266-Mikron-and-Rusnano-invest-into-65-and-45-nm-chips.html


    The bottom line for fabrication is that it is economically justified to contract out instead of building $4 billion fabrication plants. The existing
    Russian fabrication process level (90 nm transitioning into 65 nm) is sufficient for Russian military needs. For consumer needs TMSC can
    serve the function of manufacturing just fine. The opinions of these retards are not worth the time of day.
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:28 am

    I thought Mikron is already developing 65nm processors as they showcased a while back 65nm on 200mm wafer?
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3107
    Points : 3228
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  kvs on Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:02 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I thought Mikron is already developing 65nm processors as they showcased a while back 65nm on 200mm wafer?

    Yes Mikron has developed an in-house 65 nm capability and I believe they are moving to 300 mm wafers. Smaller lithography and
    larger wafers appear to go hand in hand.

    A lot of the information is from several years ago and I can't find any links to current plans and conditions in the Russian chip foundry
    business.
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4490
    Points : 4663
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Mar 26, 2016 2:58 am

    kvs wrote:The bottom line for fabrication is that it is economically justified to contract out instead of building $4 billion fabrication plants.    The existing
    Russian fabrication process level (90 nm transitioning into 65 nm) is sufficient for Russian military needs.   For consumer needs TMSC can
    serve the function of manufacturing just fine.    The opinions of these retards are not worth the time of day.

    ...Why even bother building them, the microelectronics field is meeting it's end soon because you could only build chips so small before quantum leakage comes in to effect...

    But the real reason is that Russia is already moving on to a vastly superior field of microphotonics. It's recently been proven that the existing fabrication centers based in Russia, can produce microphotonics using existing fabrication and manufacturing methods without the facilities undergoing expensive and lengthy upgrades. There's talk about making microphotonic processors with thousands of cores embedded on them.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t2824p350-ew-technologies-and-innovation-development-in-russia#152862
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:15 am

    "Angstrom" created the first fully domestic IGBT-modules

    JSC "Angstrom" specialists for the first time in Russia have developed and released a full domestic power IGBT-modules used in engine control systems, trams, trolley buses and municipal equipment - elevators and welding.

    The main consumers of power modules based on insulated-gate bipolar transistor (IGBT) and fast recovery diode (FRD) are manufacturers of public transport on electricity, as well as companies that exploit it. In addition, a huge number of IGBT-modules used in the sphere of housing and communal services (lifting equipment, water and heating systems) and energy. All of these sectors have high social significance, and therefore can not be an uncontrolled increase the value of their goods and services. However, this is not possible in an environment where most of the components and spare parts is based on foreign supplies.

    JSC "Angstrom" program was launched substitution of imported for the production of crystals of power modules. In the first stage have been developed and serial production of the crystals, and the next release launched a fully domestic power modules of its own production: IGBT and FRD module. Their distinguishing feature of their foreign counterparts is the increased short-circuit resistance (up to 50 microseconds), as well as the presence of a "soft" characteristics, which is not typical for this generation modules.

    According to the director of "Angstrom" power electronics sales department Evgeny Kuzmin, is not just a business project, but socially important task: "Today, almost 100% of the power modules used in electric utilities and public transport, foreign production. Any jump value of the currency leads to a significant rise in price of them. Businesses can not operate at a loss, and, therefore, are forced to shift these costs to consumers. The cost of domestic IGBT-modules will not be so rigidly tied to currency fluctuations. "

    Getting to the design, the developers focused on the most massive in the application of power IGBT and FRD-ins. It is now available to order a wide range of modules in the voltage range from 600 V to 1700 V and a maximum current of 75A to 600A, with different configurations: half bridge, chopper (low or high), single-key, three-phase half-bridge. Now consumers can choose from four types of buildings: SEMITRANS2, SEMITRANS3, SEMITRANS4 and ECONOPACK3. The company plans to expand the range of types produced by execution.

    victor1985

    Posts : 705
    Points : 742
    Join date : 2015-01-02

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  victor1985 on Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:32 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Kimppis wrote:It seems that Russia isn't doing too well in supercomputers:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/moores-law-for-supercomputers/

    Any future plans? Are they only using domestic chips or why do they rank so low? Isn't that a major issue?

    First and foremost..

    The term "Super computer" is very misleading. It can mean anything .Many of those servers use hardware a decade old..the magic of the "super thing" comes by spending millions dollars in buying thousands of computers and organizing them in a network ,to work as a team. can you imagine a computer how obsolete becomes after 10 years?  All those servers contest about who is the faster is just a benchmark of the speed of a combination of many hundreds or thousands of computers together calculating a mathematical operation. And the speed at which those "super computers" , that will be better called Super networks. Is highly dependent on how much money you invest on it.

    Means that if Russia wanted in this year to take the #1 position.. all they need to create a network bigger than the one China have..spend more money than them and configure /organize/Program the servers so no computer is idle doing nothing and that every server is always busy..whenever running any test.

    That said. Any nation with money can create a super computer and be the fastest. it all depends of how much $$ money you invest in the servers. Those "Super computers" use ,are very limited. Usually they used to simulate Weather in the world.. or simulate earthquakes..
    no big deal.. the most important task could be sharing data.. like Facebook for example need to have Super Computers to actualize billions of tons of data that people enter in the world.

    But if you do a test in real time graphics performance ,something like video games.
    then even a Playstation 4 will beat the hell of those top 500 super computers in running
    graphics in real time. That means ,that top 500 super computers it means next to nothing. that X country managed to organize lots of servers to do run one useless test very fast.

    Perhaps those supercomputers will be very fast running mathlab or autocad. but if you pick for example a program like adobe video or Photoshop,it will lose the "super part" and become a super crap , its performance will be no better than your top of the line single personal PC.

    So the best name for those "super computers.. will be something like Super Limited Super Servers. Because contrary to top of the line Personal Computers that people can buy , that can do everything. Those "SUper" Servers are only designed with one particular software or application in mind. either to Run Autocad/or Matlab very fast.
    or Transfer millions or billions of server files very fast.. something like transfering the personal medical record of a million of people from one server to another.. etc.

    So there is nothing to look at the "super computers". Its a meaningless benchmark.
    Because do not measure new technology. it only measure Money invested ,organization of servers and good configuration to perform one or two task very fast. and nothing else.

    What will be a real Test.. and really interesting .is to compare future Elbrus processors vs Intel I7 processors. In the most used business applications and video games. China design no computers , Russia does. BUilding a super computer is all about going shopping and spending hundred of millions dollars in Intel or Amd or IBM servers. and organizing,configuring them well ,for better performance in a limited applications.

    All Said..
    Why would Russia need a "super computer"?
    it will not help Pak-FA to be better.. neither Armata. Neither will help Russia space program.
    Probably to predict earthquakes "better" but not even Japan had any success with that . the most practical use of them will be for Civil Engineer , to calculate very huge structures.
    SOmething like the China Super bridge for example had to be simulated there. But it could have been done in any other super server too in the top 500 or top 1000. but less fast.

    A real super computer for me.. will be something totally new.. lets say quantum computers ,that
    do mathematical computations manipulating atoms. and that such technology is fully developed for consumer and business daily use and that runs all today application
    but a hundred of times faster.  That will be really BIG.  

    Since the silicon based computers are with us..since when? since the 60's..
    Anyone that develops a computer that its circuits no longer use semiconductors /silicon and manipulate atoms this time and instead of electricity use light,that will be HUGEEEEEE as big
    as landing on mars today ,building a base while filming it and then return a year later safely .

    This Elbrus Computer Russia is building is much more prestigious and more big deal
    than a going shopping of thousand american processors and organizing them ,to create the
    fastest Network in the world. This is because Russia is developing new Technology that could replace Americans one ,while China is not.



    It looks like Russia does not need to
    simulate its nuclear devices like the USA. One can laugh and dick stroke about how Russians are inferior, but
    they have always relied on mathematical approaches (e.g. asymptotic perturbation expansions) and pencil
    and paper instead of a big numerical box. They have clearly done quite well with their approach.


    Correct.. Russia have no need for being in the top 10 or top 100 supercomputers. To build
    a super server just for the fun of it and bragging rights is total silly . Yeah physical simulations,
    weather ,counting stars in the galaxy?  lol1    Japan used their super computers to predict
    earthquakes and so far no one will believe they have been successful in that. The best use
    i see for Super Computer is in Entertainment industry   Very Happy  , to render those nice shots of
    3d movies in no time. but also for engineering of super giant structures.. like very long bridges
    or buildings..and very quickly do double check by hand and pencil and by computer of everything.  Russia dont need a super computer..  but they do need to d comesign completely NEW COmputers never done before ,for import substition and for security ,to replace American technology in Russia.

    the next article will illustrate more about super computers.. how they are used .



    But what the heck can you do with a super computer?

    The short answer is: Not much. Or at least, nothing that mere mortals like you or I usually concern ourselves with.  

    http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/122159-what-can-you-do-with-a-supercomputer

    But is not so bad.. Supercomputers is used for research by scientist. The problem however
    comes ,for the very fact that the super speed will be totally useless even in the few things
    a super computer can be used.. if the program used is not done right. So if for example you
    have 1 million computers trying to solve a mathematical problem.. but one programmer by mistake enters the wrong value or formula.. then the entire work will be wasted.  Im really
    skeptic about the benefits of them. For the fact that computers do not work with real time
    information. things that happens in the now. computer data is always recorded ,stored and is old. So if you for example enter in a super computer all the traffic accidents in the world ,and how they happened. the computer will be still unable to predict future accidents with total accuracy. all said to study the behavior of nature or of the human body and to try to predict the future by looking at old data , is doomed to failure. because such things are random and do not follow any script or predictable pattern. Japan have failed in the use of their Supercomputers to
    predict earthquakes for examples.. and Super computers will also fail to predict illness or find cure for anything. the right place for Super Computers should not be research.. or to "discover anything" in my opinion.. but simply to speed things , that human can do ,but will take them much more time.. It also can be used to organize endless data so that you can more easier study it and find exactly what you want.

    So in summary Computers/super computers,are useless to discover anything new.
    Because they operate with the data that you enter ,so do not reason..
    What Super Computers can do , is help Organize Mega Tons of Information that you enter
    ,so that it will help you see things.. to better study your own information ,that is to make it easier to visualize things. but also to speed calculations in mathematics. and display graphics too.  But Super Computers will never be able to discover anything new or create new science.
    So this is the reason Why Russia don't need a "super computer" in the top positions because there is no use for it.


    mate....lots of talking but you are wrong .....
    the GPU is the same thing as a CPU ....but with the difference that the GPU has the logic arangement of logical unit for graphic work.....
    but....in his limited way a CPU has some ability to make a graphic calcul.... add 100,000 CPU's and they will beat any dedicated GPU on market .....even 3 SLI/crossfire.....
    all is needed is a CPU coding such that all 100000 to be corelated .....

    in other point of view...you want a bigger and bigger supercomputer for military? find a secure way to share information to PC's from all over the people of russia and please them to tv to download a installer....then you have a huge calculation network wich is upgraded daily ..... think like bittorent nodes work and you can make the biggest simulator ever....... either graphic or code

    Singular_trafo

    Posts : 130
    Points : 128
    Join date : 2016-04-16

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_trafo on Mon May 30, 2016 6:15 pm

    Interesting qestion, if the S-500 will be capable to intercept high level ICBMs and nuclear warhead , then it must has radiation resistant electronics.

    By my best knowledge russia doesn't has capacity to manufacture these circuits.
    They will use Chinese electronics in the interceptor rockets?

    Additionaly, the S-X00 radar can handle ECM blindness?
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Mon May 30, 2016 9:27 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:Interesting qestion, if the S-500 will be capable to intercept high level ICBMs and nuclear warhead , then it must has radiation resistant electronics.

    By my best knowledge russia doesn't has capacity to manufacture these circuits.
    They will use Chinese electronics in the interceptor rockets?

    Additionaly, the S-X00 radar can handle ECM blindness?
    Russia's military microelectronics are made in Zelenograd. Micron plant and Angstrom-T.

    Singular_trafo

    Posts : 130
    Points : 128
    Join date : 2016-04-16

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_trafo on Mon May 30, 2016 9:54 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    Singular_trafo wrote:Interesting qestion, if the S-500 will be capable to intercept high level ICBMs and nuclear warhead , then it must has radiation resistant electronics.

    By my best knowledge russia doesn't has capacity to manufacture these circuits.
    They will use Chinese electronics in the interceptor rockets?

    Additionaly, the S-X00 radar can handle ECM blindness?
    Russia's military microelectronics are made in Zelenograd. Micron plant and Angstrom-T.

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-says-preparing-rocket-engine-deal-with-china/538631.html

    “We are talking about an agreement to supply Russian rocket engines [to China], and the reciprocal delivery of Chinese micro-electronics that we need for things like the construction of spacecraft,” Rogozin was quoted as saying.


    Spacecraft= radiation hardened electronics.

    Reason why Russia started to manufacture MRAM.
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Mon May 30, 2016 10:23 pm

    China uses basic Motorola processors for mil in radiation environment. What do you think Russia been using for years? They have a wide selection. Elbrus 2C is designed for radar use. Hence need anti radiation shielding. And even then, it is all in special housing.

    I suggest looking it up. Maybe do a bit more research.

    These are a good start:
    http://igorrgroup.blogspot.ca/2009/11/russian-chip-makers-part-1.html
    and
    http://igorrgroup.blogspot.ca/2009/11/russian-chip-makers-part-2.html

    producers:
    http://multicore.ru/
    http://www.mikron.ru/en/
    http://www.module.ru/

    Of course there are probably subcomponents that need to be imported. And as you mentioned, they just started recently on MRAM so that was another one they had to import in the past.
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3107
    Points : 3228
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  kvs on Mon May 30, 2016 11:46 pm

    The Russian military has been using custom ASICs for years. CPUs are overkill in many applications and having custom
    logic can do a better and faster job than software emulation on a generic CPU. This aspect is totally lost on many
    "experts".

    http://www.mri-progress.ru/en/about/info/

    http://cordis.europa.eu/docs/projects/cnect/2/247992/080/deliverables/001-Annex6D21SEMIDEC.pdf
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 31, 2016 2:08 am

    kvs wrote:The Russian military has been using custom ASICs for years.   CPUs are overkill in many applications and having custom
    logic can do a better and faster job than software emulation on a generic CPU.   This aspect is totally lost on many
    "experts".

    http://www.mri-progress.ru/en/about/info/

    http://cordis.europa.eu/docs/projects/cnect/2/247992/080/deliverables/001-Annex6D21SEMIDEC.pdf

    Totally correct and I didn't have much links for it. Thank you for finding this.

    Singular_trafo

    Posts : 130
    Points : 128
    Join date : 2016-04-16

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_trafo on Tue May 31, 2016 6:54 pm

    sepheronx wrote:China uses basic Motorola processors for mil in radiation environment. What do you think Russia been using for years? They have a wide selection. Elbrus 2C is designed for radar use. Hence need anti radiation shielding. And even then, it is all in special housing.

    I suggest looking it up. Maybe do a bit more research.

    These are a good start:
    http://igorrgroup.blogspot.ca/2009/11/russian-chip-makers-part-1.html
    and
    http://igorrgroup.blogspot.ca/2009/11/russian-chip-makers-part-2.html

    producers:
    http://multicore.ru/
    http://www.mikron.ru/en/
    http://www.module.ru/

    Of course there are probably subcomponents that need to be imported. And as you mentioned, they just started recently on MRAM so that was another one they had to import in the past.

    Rad hardened means "radioactive radiation hardened electronics"- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hardening

    It is easy to electromagneticaly shield somethng, needs same metal plate , but to radiation shielding you need 10cm thick lead shielding.


    Radiation hardened electronics must be manufactured by completly different methods and production control compared to consumer electronics .As a start it must ues silicon on insulator (example saphire waffer)

    The selling of rad hardened electronics require special approvals everywhere, an considered weapons , or part of weapons of mass destruction.

    All nucelar weapon delivery system, satelite or other orbital equipment , anything that must work in radiation contaminated enviroment (like a anti ICBM rocket) must have radiation hardened electronics.

    Example up to 2010 the Soyuz capsules used the argon command computers, designed in the 70s , with 70kg mass.

    The russian electronics industry become capable to make rad hard electronics around 2005-2010 , but these biggest problem for russia at the moment the high speed , high capacity rad hardened optical / data processing systems.

    That is the reason of the MRAM development, that is rad hardened by design, fast has low power consumption.






    Last edited by Singular_trafo on Tue May 31, 2016 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Singular_trafo

    Posts : 130
    Points : 128
    Join date : 2016-04-16

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_trafo on Tue May 31, 2016 7:01 pm

    kvs wrote:The Russian military has been using custom ASICs for years. CPUs are overkill in many applications and having custom
    logic can do a better and faster job than software emulation on a generic CPU. This aspect is totally lost on many
    "experts".

    http://www.mri-progress.ru/en/about/info/

    http://cordis.europa.eu/docs/projects/cnect/2/247992/080/deliverables/001-Annex6D21SEMIDEC.pdf


    ASIC means "Application Sepcific Integrated Circuit"

    It can contain a cpu, memories, DSPs and whatever you want.Typicaly it is a periphery controller for a computer.

    What is more common in military application is the SoC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_on_a_chip

    But example for image processing you want a programable computer, to be able to update and change the software to update it with the newthermal/optical fingerprints for new enemy airplanes, or to change the encryption keys.

    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:34 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:China uses basic Motorola processors for mil in radiation environment. What do you think Russia been using for years? They have a wide selection. Elbrus 2C is designed for radar use. Hence need anti radiation shielding. And even then, it is all in special housing.

    I suggest looking it up. Maybe do a bit more research.

    These are a good start:
    http://igorrgroup.blogspot.ca/2009/11/russian-chip-makers-part-1.html
    and
    http://igorrgroup.blogspot.ca/2009/11/russian-chip-makers-part-2.html

    producers:
    http://multicore.ru/
    http://www.mikron.ru/en/
    http://www.module.ru/

    Of course there are probably subcomponents that need to be imported.  And as you mentioned, they just started recently on MRAM so that was another one they had to import in the past.

    Rad hardened means "radioactive radiation hardened electronics"- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hardening

    It is easy to electromagneticaly shield somethng, needs same metal plate , but to radiation shielding you need 10cm  thick  lead shielding.


    Radiation hardened electronics must be manufactured by completly different methods and production control compared to consumer electronics .As a start it must ues silicon on insulator (example saphire waffer)

    The selling of rad hardened electronics require special approvals everywhere, an considered weapons , or part of weapons of mass destruction.

    All nucelar weapon delivery system, satelite or other orbital equipment , anything that must work in radiation contaminated enviroment (like a anti ICBM rocket) must have radiation hardened electronics.

    Example up to 2010 the Soyuz capsules used the argon command computers, designed in the 70s , with 70kg mass.

    The russian electronics industry become capable to make rad hard electronics around 2005-2010 , but these biggest problem for russia at the moment the high speed , high capacity rad hardened optical / data processing systems.

    That is the reason of the MRAM development, that is rad hardened by design, fast has low power consumption.





    And China isn't major producer either. Actually, if looking back only a few years, US has been using their Intel i960 processors for such applications. What module and Elvees supplies are modern chips of both MIPS and now ARM as well. Their use in satellites are obvious indication on radioactive shielding (not all of it are onboard based. Shielding is and has been done on housing) due to massive radiation levels in space.

    Singular_trafo

    Posts : 130
    Points : 128
    Join date : 2016-04-16

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_trafo on Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:52 pm

    sepheronx wrote:

    And China isn't major producer either. Actually, if looking back only a few years, US has been using their Intel i960 processors for such applications. What module and Elvees supplies are modern chips of both MIPS and now ARM as well. Their use in satellites are obvious indication on radioactive shielding (not all of it are onboard based. Shielding is and has been done on housing) due to massive radiation levels in space.

    Russia doesn't have other choice.

    In Europe/taiwan/japan all producer controlled by the US (appart from few French one - maybe)

    An old, 486 (or even motorola 68000 ) CPU fine for controlling/patch adjustment, but not enoguht for radar/visual data processing.
    For that you need fast and good processors/memories/controller/custom ICs (ASIC).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS-K2

    This showing well the problems that russia facing with advanced rad hard electronics.
    In the case of the GLONASS-K1, the foreign components were up to 90% of the electronics. And thus without substitution the modernization program could not make modern spacecrafts. He stated that the first generation of GLONASS spacecraft were created under such a ban and thus had been an inferior product with just 3 years of expected life
    From presentation seems like they expected 3 years to make the next glonass from russian made components, means that they has to start from the scratch the menufacturing of them.

    Means that the Micron and company has to start prototype production for thousand of new products, putting onto the edge the capacity of it.


    Actualy the "3 years of expected life" that you get with radiation shielding, without using proper radiation hardened components.
    for something that doesn't has 3 tonns of weight and expected life of three years you need radiation hardened components.

    Singular_trafo

    Posts : 130
    Points : 128
    Join date : 2016-04-16

    s-500

    Post  Singular_trafo on Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:26 pm

    I think the high altitude ballistic interceptor rocket will suffer similar delivery time problem like the Glonass-K.
    They has to integrate teh Chinese radhard parts,and manufacture russian made ones to finish the interceptors.

    Not like it is a big deal, the ICBM interceptor can be considered as the most less usefull piece of equipment.
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7252
    Points : 7546
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:49 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:

    And China isn't major producer either. Actually, if looking back only a few years, US has been using their Intel i960 processors for such applications. What module and Elvees supplies are modern chips of both MIPS and now ARM as well. Their use in satellites are obvious indication on radioactive shielding (not all of it are onboard based. Shielding is and has been done on housing) due to massive radiation levels in space.

    Russia doesn't have other choice.

    In Europe/taiwan/japan all producer controlled by the US (appart from few French one - maybe)

    An old, 486 (or even motorola 68000 ) CPU fine for controlling/patch adjustment, but not enoguht for radar/visual data processing.
    For that you need fast and good processors/memories/controller/custom ICs (ASIC).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS-K2

    This showing well the problems that russia facing with advanced rad hard electronics.
    In the case of the GLONASS-K1, the foreign components were up to 90% of the electronics. And thus without substitution the modernization program could not make modern spacecrafts. He stated that the first generation of GLONASS spacecraft were created under such a ban and thus had been an inferior product with just 3 years of expected life
    From presentation seems like they expected 3 years to make the next glonass from russian made components, means that they has to start from the scratch the menufacturing of them.

    Means that the Micron and company has to start prototype production for thousand of new products, putting onto the edge the capacity of it.


    Actualy the "3 years of expected life" that you get with radiation shielding, without using proper radiation hardened components.
    for something that doesn't has 3 tonns of weight and expected life of three years you need radiation hardened components.

    You are using comparisons of technology that works 24/7 in space vs an object that is following a nuclear missile to hit it.  Doesn't require the same components I hope you know.  And Glonass K was built using foreign components but that doesn't mean that they don't use their own.  As mentioned, if you want system on chip that will work in radiation, Elbrus 2C+ is what you are looking at, since it was designed for radar installations.  If you want to believe it or not, is not our problem.  It is being built by Micran and Zelenograd apparently.  My father build part of NORADS missile defense complexes back in the 80's and its radar systems.  Essentially nuclear missiles are not exactly seeping out radiation since they are heavily contained, but still dangerous to walk around.  That isn't anything that will cause major faults or issues with any electronics in its use in interceptors.  That said, I am certain Russian specialists have figured it out since they, you know, building the complexes.  And no, I bet it isn't using any Chinese components cause they really don't need to.  As mentioned, these interceptors sit on the ground, not in space floating around for 3 years Wink

    Singular_trafo wrote:I think the high altitude ballistic interceptor rocket will suffer similar delivery time problem like the Glonass-K.
    They has to integrate teh Chinese radhard parts,and manufacture russian made ones to finish the interceptors.

    Not like it is a big deal, the ICBM interceptor can be considered as the most less usefull piece of equipment.

    You are aware there is a difference between a ground based system and a space based object, right?  No, there could be parts. But that is something we will probably never know.

    Vann7

    Posts : 3472
    Points : 3584
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:29 am

    Singular_trafo wrote:Interesting qestion, if the S-500 will be capable to intercept high level ICBMs and nuclear warhead , then it must has radiation resistant electronics.

    By my best knowledge russia doesn't has capacity to manufacture these circuits.
    They will use Chinese electronics in the interceptor rockets?

    Additionaly, the S-X00 radar can handle ECM blindness?

    Dude , i really think you are seriously misinformed. wikipedia is not really the best
    source of information ,just get that right for once. and Russia was first in space, first in the Moon ,Mars and Venus a decade or two earlier before than NASA in most of them ,and in Venus NASA not even have been there, and the radiation in open space is the most brutal you can get ,not mentioned either the below zero ,-270.45 Celsius. that any probe needs to survive there.

    Lunokhod the Russian Rover was in the moon in 1970 for more than a year , taking photos.
    and China was not remotely a power in those time ,even less had any technology. So contrary
    to your believe Russia do have plenty of experience dealing with Radiation, even more than
    your wikipedia reality claims.

    You also commented ,suggested that Russia semiconductor industry was at the level
    of Intel 486 lol1  how an we even have a discussion with so much ignorance from your part.

    take a look how since 2000 , Russian engineers were leading Intel Pentium pro processors.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/06/07/intel_uses_russia_military_technologies/

    Russia have more experience in computers than you think. and definitively their
    latest processors are not at the level of technology released by Intel 15 years ago that
    were running at 11 megaherz speed. Rolling Eyes   The west is definitively ahead in semicondutors
    no question in that but  Russia semiconductor industry is not obsolete by any means , is just at the level of 3 to 5 years ago in terms of graphics but ahead in other operations. Seph can educate you more on that about what Russia have achieved.

    About the Electronics in Russia "being obsolete" as you try to make it look , i bet you don't
    realize that Electronics is yesterday technology ,and the new thing today is Photronics, which
    Russia is AHEAD of Americans in this.  This does not use cooper wires to create circuits ,
    instead it use a totally new system , that use light to transmission of information. This is light years ahead of electronics and this is the reason why Russia is far ahead than Americans in Counter Electronics. Isn't that funny how the "more superior nation in electronics" is behind
    Russia in Counter electronics?  

    Comparing modern electronics with photronics is like comparing 8 track tapes recording
    with Blue Ray recordable disk today ,that even can last a thousand years .

    So dismount from that old horse already of the western being better in already obsolete technology today. I remember how 10 years ago ,when a Professor of the Electronics course in engineering told me  . how electronics will become totally obsolete in the not long future. And to not get too focused on it ,because it will become obsolete his modern electronics book used to teach engineers. yet you are here making comparisons of who is the best in already obsolete technology. For satellites and space craft ,Russia will replace their electronics with Photronics .
    Just like their next generation Pak-Fa plane already is using something of it.

    So using China electronics at times ,as a stop gap to quickly keep moving forward in space  ,makes sense. because Investing in Obsolete technology for modern military ,that that will have to operate in space and is not very secure ,since can be jammed or hacked or sabotage with interfered ,is not worth of it. Russia do better to invest its money in state of the art technology of the future and not technology the past. and keep using chinesse electronics components until Russia can totally replace their electronics for something much better and much more advanced.



    When it comes to Russian engineers ,what kind of knowledge they had in semicondutors
    and computers you will do good in reading this.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/06/07/intel_uses_russia_military_technologies/

    Russia always had pretty decent knowledge in Semicondutors since computers exist. They could have done much better if it wasn't for the collapse of soviet union ,that allowed Americans to get all Russian talent to Intel and even lead processors there.

    Im sure had the Soviet Union did not collapsed ,and instead American did it. and Russia became the world largest economy and attracted (as american did) the best engineers of America to Russia. then the history will have been totally different. and the most fastest processors and graphics technology will be made in Russia and not in United States.   But when you collect
    the best talent from nations. is very easy to later claim how behind is this or that nation. totally ignoring how Most of American PHD engineers are Foreigners. that moved to america and took the best positions. including Russian engineers ,chinese and Indians.

    I think the next video ,will be very useful for you to understand from where
    it comes the leadership of American Business in technology industry.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK0Y9j_CGgM

    Without the Foreign Top Engineers and Scientist that American recruit every year , its entire
    industry will collapse. Im glad that Russia finally kicked all the Americans monitoring their
    Universities to steal their talent . But is so pathetic they waited for sanctions to happen to do that. That should have never allowed to happen . and Russian Universities not allowed
    to be spied by the west.

    Singular_trafo

    Posts : 130
    Points : 128
    Join date : 2016-04-16

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_trafo on Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:47 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    You are aware there is a difference between a ground based system and a space based object, right?  No, there could be parts. But that is something we will probably never know.

    If we consider the known parameters of the working end course interceptor systems then there are two important parameters:
    1. These use nuclear tiped rockets
    2. The interceptors must go throught areas where the neturon density enought to detonate a nuclear warhed - the warheads must be carefully designed to avoid the risk of premature detonation due to a close (anti ICBM) nuclear blast.



    The first means that the electronic used in the interceptor must survive decade(s) of close proxity of a normal weapon grade warhead ( or the designers must consider to use expensive super grade plutonium : ) )


    Second means the non radhard electronics will die as the rocket flies throught the first blast cloud.



    Last edited by Singular_trafo on Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:41 pm; edited 2 times in total

    Singular_trafo

    Posts : 130
    Points : 128
    Join date : 2016-04-16

    Russian Electronics in Military

    Post  Singular_trafo on Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:02 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    Singular_trafo wrote:Interesting qestion, if the S-500 will be capable to intercept high level ICBMs and nuclear warhead , then it must has radiation resistant electronics.

    By my best knowledge russia doesn't has capacity to manufacture these circuits.
    They will use Chinese electronics in the interceptor rockets?

    Additionaly, the S-X00 radar can handle ECM blindness?

    Dude , i really think you are seriously misinformed. wikipedia is not really the best
    source of information ,just get that right for once. and Russia was first in space, first in the Moon ,Mars and Venus a decade or two earlier before than NASA in most of them ,and in Venus NASA not even have been there, and the radiation in open space is the most brutal you can get ,not mentioned either the below zero ,-270.45 Celsius. that any probe needs to survive there.

    Lunokhod the Russian Rover was in the moon in 1970 for more than a year , taking photos.
    and China was not remotely a power in those time ,even less had any technology. So contrary
    to your believe Russia do have plenty of experience dealing with Radiation, even more than
    your wikipedia reality claims.



    Don't take me wrong, but the Russian Federation is NOT the SU.
    If the SU hasn't had radhard electronics then they just lanuched one satelite in every three years, insetead of every ten years.
    That was the reason why the SU military outlay was the 25-40% of the GDP, decreasing the level of living for the ordinary citizens dramaticaly.

    Russia doesn't want to do everything regardles of the price.

    Russia is more efficient than the SU was ever, means that it can make the same equipment with less resources.

    The russian industry is less advanced in microelectronics than the US (or China, as a matter of fact), but no one can be top level in everything.


    A litle information about the radhard CPUs:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_embedded_computer_systems_on_board_the_Mars_rovers

    The latest one, lanuched in 2011 using similar CPU like the lates version of the Pentium CPU released in 1996.




    avatar
    Project Canada

    Posts : 618
    Points : 623
    Join date : 2015-07-20
    Age : 29
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Project Canada on Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:28 pm




    Russian made 'iPhone' to be released in 2018, price tag starting from $130

    MOSCOW, September 22. /TASS/. Russia plans to release smartphones that will be comparable with iPhone in terms of quality but cost much less than the original US device, head of Ruselectronics Igor Kozlov told reporters on Thursday.
    Ruselectronics will produce the Russian "iPhones’.
    "In 2018, we will have our own, domestic iPhone, which will cost only about $130," Kozlov said.
    The Ruselectronics holding company was set up in the early 2009 on the base of the state holding with the same name. It is part of the state-owned corporation Rostec.
    The holding unites enterprises specializing in the design and manufacture of electronic components, products, materials and equipment for their manufacture, as well as microwave devices and semiconductor devices.
    The company raises 15% of its revenues from civilian products and 85% from military products. Currently, Ruselectronics is in the process of restructuring and plans to strengthen its department for production of civilian products. By 2025, civilian products will account


    http://tass.com/economy/901600?_ga=1.102490433.15676205.1469362849


    Singular_trafo

    Posts : 130
    Points : 128
    Join date : 2016-04-16

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_trafo on Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:54 pm

    Russia has one, 4 years old 90nm semiconductor fab.
    That is quite busy to pump out thousand of low volume, high commplexity military/goverment/industrial dies, that blocked due to the sanctions.

    It won't have any capacity in the next years to update itself to lower node size, and to start to pump out high volume mobile phone ICs.


    And a 14nm top end fab cost a lot of money, and without that it is not possible to compete on this field.

    And the money won't stop at the fab, the chip design cost 300-700 milion $ for 14nm.


    So russia could make phone from imported parts, but that wonát be competitive compared to the korean phones.


    Singular_trafo

    Posts : 130
    Points : 128
    Join date : 2016-04-16

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_trafo on Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:56 pm

    Actualy the intel wonát go into the mobile field, it making high complexity, high cost ICs.

    Russia should make high complexity, low volume, high value added ICs, like satelite/nuclear industry radhard ICs, military stuff , telekom and other critical infrastructure components.
    avatar
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 4490
    Points : 4663
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:05 am

    News on GaN transistor development:

    Roselectronika started to develop advanced types of transistors

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:36 pm