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    Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

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    Singular_Transform

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    Russian electronics

    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:53 pm

    franco wrote:Interfax 13:43
    Russian missile early warning spacecraft undergoing development flight tests

    Seems like they mastering the 90nm semiconductor fabs.
    Or Chinese components, who knows.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:05 pm

    They have their own. This has been already mentioned in the tech thread. Please review before making more statements.
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  kvs on Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:48 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:Seems like they mastering the 90nm semiconductor fabs.
    Or Chinese components, who knows.

    Mikron has developed an in-house 65 nm process. 90 nm is old news.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:35 am

    miketheterrible wrote:They have their own. This has been already mentioned in the tech thread. Please review before making more statements.

    We don't know.

    I think it is a mixture of both.

    I don't think anyone at the micron chasing any smaller pattern than 90nm for space apps and low volume ICs.

    By decreasing the size the cost of designing the chip for the manufacturing process exponentially increase, it next to nothing on 90nm, and 700 million $ on 11 nm.

    In the space the speed doesn't matter that much , the downstream bandwidth is the limitation.

    If they can manufacture all ICs on 90 nm then there can be the next step to smaller patterns.

    But anyway, there are informations about russian request to use CCDs on the open sky aircrafts, and now numerous information about new satellite projects.

    Means either they found a new source of radhard ICs, or the can manufacture them.

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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:16 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:They have their own. This has been already mentioned in the tech thread. Please review before making more statements.

    We don't know.

    I think it is a mixture of both.

    I don't think anyone at the micron chasing any smaller pattern than 90nm for space apps and low volume ICs.

    By decreasing the size the cost of designing the chip for the manufacturing process exponentially increase, it next to nothing on 90nm, and 700 million $ on 11 nm.

    In the space the speed doesn't matter that much , the downstream bandwidth is the limitation.

    If they can manufacture all ICs on 90 nm then there can be the next step to smaller patterns.

    But anyway, there are informations about russian request to use CCDs on the open sky aircrafts, and now numerous information about new satellite projects.

    Means either they found a new source of radhard ICs, or the can manufacture them.


    Read post again, and then go do your due diligence.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:06 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:

    Read post again, and then go do your due diligence.

    ?
    There is no available data about Russian radhard components/capability.

    Few article from 2014 aboutthat russia wants to sell rd-180 to China for radhard electronics, few more about the installation of the 90nm fab, and one about export approval withdraw from a S company to ship machine for MRAM manufacturing to Russia .

    and now the news about new satellites.

    If you have any more data or Russian source please share it. Smile
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:20 pm

    https://ria.ru/science/20160705/1458752482.html#ixzz4DWDtwgCS

    About selling spaced based electronics to India. The machines to make mean has been in Russia since 2013. As well, they already make 90nm tech at 300mm and 65nm at 200mm. Angstrom T makes it and has been making Elbrus 2C+ at the site for military purposes. Same with space based chips from elvees and Micran.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:16 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:https://ria.ru/science/20160705/1458752482.html#ixzz4DWDtwgCS

    About selling spaced based electronics to India. The machines to make mean has been in Russia since 2013. As well, they already make 90nm tech at 300mm and 65nm at 200mm. Angstrom T makes it and has been making Elbrus 2C+ at the site for military purposes. Same with space based chips from elvees and Micran.

    The question is not the capability to make space grade ICs ( they always been able since su time) but to make 90nm high density sdrams ,nvrams , cpus , bus controllers and so on.
    There is little( 0 ) direct information about that .

    Remark : one space graded CPU cost around 10000$. So 1-20 $/pcs probably indicate simple logical circuits or analogue power controls and so on.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:50 pm

    You are aware that for a transistor to be used in radar systems need shielding. Elbrus 2C+ is shielded.

    Anyway, it isn't like I need to convince you, when you are perfectly capable of checking Rostec.ru and other sites. Even some members here posted the news about transistors an , alike made by Russia for space.

    Also. Check out elvees and mikran. Both make space base d IC. Angstrom T makes 90nm chips and is the one offering space based to India. I think you're smart enough to put two and two together. Wink
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  kvs on Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:07 pm

    It's like with climate change deniers on this board. The same retarded tropes have to be debunked over and over. None of the
    "skeptics" does any actual research before coming here and pissing their ignorance.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:48 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:You are aware that for a transistor to be used in radar systems need shielding. Elbrus 2C+ is shielded.

    Anyway, it isn't like I need to convince you, when you are perfectly capable of checking Rostec.ru and other sites. Even some members here posted the news about transistors an , alike made by Russia for space.

    Also. Check out elvees and mikran. Both make space base d IC. Angstrom T makes 90nm chips and is the one offering space based to India. I think you're smart enough to put two and two together. Wink

    You can't make effective shielding.
    To have the similar lifetime like a radhard ic you need 10 cm of lead.At least.

    there is same info about 180nm radhard russian components here:
    http://zeptobars.com/en/read/open-microchip-asic-what-inside-II-msp430-pic-z80

    But seems like the investment that Ru started after the georgian war getting close to make results, if they can make satelites.

    Prior of 2014 75% of tge radhard electronics in satelites come from us/eu.

    That was the reason why they bined the glonass k2.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS-K2

    So, if russia planning new military satelites THEN they must be comfortable with availability of radhard high speed components.
    Either from china or from domestic sources.

    But there is no info about MRAM , or the new 90nm plants.
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Rmf on Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:06 am

    for space you dont want transistors so close anyway 90 nm is fine size limit , also voltages are lower ,and there is lots of overvoltage protection inside and errorcheck software +  redundancy. for conventional chips you have to use hermeticaly sealed climate controlled containers
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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:33 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:You are aware that for a transistor to be used in radar systems need shielding. Elbrus 2C+ is shielded.

    Anyway, it isn't like I need to convince you, when you are perfectly capable of checking Rostec.ru and other sites. Even some members here posted the news about transistors an , alike made by Russia for space.

    Also. Check out elvees and mikran. Both make space base d IC. Angstrom T makes 90nm chips and is the one offering space based to India. I think you're smart enough to put two and two together. Wink

    You can't make effective shielding.
    To have the similar lifetime like a radhard ic you need 10 cm of lead.At least.

    there is same info about 180nm radhard russian components here:
    http://zeptobars.com/en/read/open-microchip-asic-what-inside-II-msp430-pic-z80

    But seems like the investment that Ru started after the georgian war getting close to make results, if they can make satelites.

    Prior of 2014 75% of tge radhard electronics in satelites come from us/eu.

    That was the reason why they bined the glonass k2.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLONASS-K2

    So, if russia planning new military satelites THEN they  must be comfortable with availability of radhard high speed components.
    Either from china or from domestic sources.

    But there is no info about MRAM , or the new 90nm plants.

    You are not going to find much on it because you can't find much on anything Russian material related in any kind of industry, especially when using joogle. For instance, I learned a lot from just using other Russian sites that use videos from tv programs that talked about it. Not long ago they did one on Angstrom T and their productions. Just an example.

    I cant name a Russian toothpaste brand but I did find some when I was at a Russian store in Canada here. Yet I cant find it when trying to look it up.

    Piece of advice: Russian's are not well known for marketing. Something they really need to work on.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:48 am

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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_Transform on Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:57 pm


    This is old stuff.

    Seems like it is good for nuclear warheads / simple satelite control systems.

    The interesting is radhard big CCDs,high speed CCD interfaces, memorys,NVrams, flahs rams, poer transistors and high speed commuiaction circuits.


    For example an early warning sateliet they need radhard cooled infra red sensors, high speed data and radio circuits, from the new 90/65nm plant.

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:19 am

    It is a bit interesting.

    I think they work like madman in the new fabs since 2014 to make and test new radhard dies for satelites.
    Question is how far they are now.
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    kvs

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  kvs on Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:08 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:

    This is old stuff.

    Seems like it is good for nuclear warheads / simple satelite control systems.

    The interesting is radhard big CCDs,high speed CCD interfaces, memorys,NVrams, flahs rams, poer transistors and high speed commuiaction circuits.


    For example an early warning sateliet they need radhard cooled infra red sensors, high speed data and radio circuits, from the new 90/65nm plant.


    I was involved with occultation instrument development in Canada. Please don't prance around making it like Russia cannot
    design CCDs for space based systems and yapping about "old" stuff. It is physically impossible to rad harden dense IC components.
    All that one can hope for is noise post processing. At least with RAM one can build in some bit error control. With a CCD you cannot
    remove the noise in hardware.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:04 pm

    kvs wrote:

    I was involved with occultation instrument development in Canada. Please don't prance around making it like Russia cannot
    design CCDs for space based systems and yapping about "old" stuff. It is physically impossible to rad harden dense IC components.
    All that one can hope for is noise post processing. At least with RAM one can build in some bit error control. With a CCD you cannot
    remove the noise in hardware.

    The radhard controllers / computers in the links shown a no bigger than 16megs memory CCD controller.

    It is not fit to drive anything bigger than say 2 megapixel circuit ,and that is definitively not enough for the job.


    The manufacturing of the radhard component COMPLETELY different from the normal semiconductors.

    The normal stuff manufactured /grown on silicon wafer, that is conductive.Means if a gamma photon dislocating a charge then it will propagate to the nearest active element,and make a false signal there. The silicon is the starting of the production.


    In the case of radhard elements the process starting with an insulator, like sapphire ( the RF is the main supplier of the single crystal sapphire wafers)

    Actually the sapphire is the starting point for the GaN circuits as well, as it seems from the articles on the net.

    Anyway, example a CCD for non-radhard environment start from silicon, for radhard environment from sapphire.

    http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1477639?reload=true
    This conference happened in 1973, about sapphire based CCD .

    Just as a coincidence , the first US satellite with CCD launched in 1976.

    http://www.epj-conferences.org/articles/epjconf/pdf/2017/01/epjconf_spectro2017_01002.pdf
    This paper above has been published this year, means it is quite recent.

    Showing how to grown check the MgO thickness/cover on sapphire substrate.

    MgO is insulator as well , maybe they did it to deposit GaN ? Seems like the sapphire not matching the exact latice spacing of GaN.

    A Russian company here :
    http://technospark.ru/en/proekty/

    Advanced laser microsystems

    Founded: 2014

    Product/service: Laser lift-off removal of the sapphire wafer


    Seems like it is related to the radhard parts manufacturing.

    http://indico.cfr.mephi.ru/event/4/session/29/contribution/19/material/slides/0.pdf

    Above presentation contain the high speed radhard boards usable for modern satellites.
    There is one circuit schematic, showing one central core with 26 bit address bus, capable to adders 256 MB of memory - enough for a spy satellite.


    Everywhere mention SRAMs , that can be used only in space, due to the problems with capacitors.

    Example the SRAM requirement means that the radhard electronic doesn't share even the memory technology with the non-radhard components.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOMDIV-32


    I checked , the IRIDIUM satellites using 7 pcs of 200 MHz powerPC CPUs, and each of them has sum 2.5 Mbit/sec bandwidth, on 1100 channel.

    The RF has to make high frequency radhard RF modules as well.

    Again, it has to start with sapphire - GaN.

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:12 pm

    Then check Rostec website. They say just that. They been working on gan quite a bit.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:38 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Then check Rostec website. They say just that. They been working on gan quite a bit.

    C'mon, mate, the name of the game is "get as much specs as possible from the internet" . : )


    example:
    Crocus NanoElectronics, a portfolio company of Russia’s nanotech giant, Rusnano, and the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology (MIPT), a leading Russian technology university, continue their joint research program in an effort to develop a next gen STT-MRAM magnetic memory and test production technology for that.

    The partners expect to jointly develop new materials, design devices, and come up with new modeling and control methods. If they pull it off, the groundwork will be laid for the production of STT-MRAM-based items on the premises of Crocus NanoElectronics.

    The Spin-Transfer Torque Magnetic Random Access Memory (STT-MRAM) technology is built around the idea of transferring spins for re-saving memory cells. Using this effect in making conventional magneto-resistive memory helps reduce electrical current required for storing data in a cell, and enables production to 90-to-22 nanometer design rule and lower.

    The international majors manufacturing DRAM dynamic memory all push their own STT-MRAM development programs, as they believe the technology is most likely to replace DRAM in a near future.

    Crocus NanoElectronics is Europe’s only company, and one of the world’s few, to provide a commercial hub to manufacture magnetic tunnel structure based memory and sensors to 90/65 nanometer design rule on wafers 300mm in diameter.

    http://marchmontnews.com/Technology-Innovation/Central-regions/21597-Russia-pushes-its-STT-MRAM-next-gen-memory-program-.html
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:02 am

    I'm not holding your hand. It is a few clicks away after hitting load more on Rostec website. If kVS wants to do it for you, fine. I'm not.
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:46 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I'm not holding your hand. It is a few clicks away after hitting load more on Rostec website. If kVS wants to do it for you, fine. I'm not.

    That website doesn't contain anything.

    Couple of catalogue.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:45 am

    http://rostec.ru/news/4519353
    http://rostec.ru/news/4519307

    You can find news on Russian GaN since 2013
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    Singular_Transform

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:27 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:http://rostec.ru/news/4519353
    http://rostec.ru/news/4519307

    You can find news on Russian GaN since 2013


    The semiconductor industry is a quite interesting one.

    The machines are extremely expensive, each of them cost 8 million $ or more.

    The building/utility extremely expensive as well, start around 1 billion $ and can be 10 billion $ or more.


    The process of a new IC start with the design,afterwards they have to translate the design to the manufacturing process ( this step can cost 10 or 100 millions of $ as well if the technology is less than 90nm).

    Then,you start the sample manufacturing process.

    The challenge is that you have a lot of machine in the shop,and you have to do say 80 passes on the machines to make the final finished wafer.

    It can take weeks or months.

    If you make radhard ICs then the number of passes increase.

    It has two different result:
    1. Radhard component needs more time to make and fine tune - say it takes 3 weeks for a non radhard,and 6 weeks for a radhard component to make. Means if you need 6 iteration then the development time will be 18 weeks for the normal , and 36 weeks for the radhard. But the radhard needs more step, means the time can be way more than this calculation.
    2. The 3-4 billion $ plant can make say x amount of non-radhard ICs, and say x/2 radhard ICs. But you have to use the normal manufacturing line for sampling, means due to the above the radhard IC development can burn like the hell the available capacity of the fab.

    The above is the main reason why everyone using 150 -90nm technology to make radhard ICs. Simply even the military can't afford the high cost of the new fabs, they using the old cheap ones instead.

    So, the interesting can be to see the result of the serial manufacturing, and to see satellites flying up there : )

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    Re: Russian Electronics: Semiconductor and Processors

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:52 pm

    that is true, equipment is too expensive. And the output is low so production is low thus costs are high as well.

    The other concept too is the need in performance vs not. In a lot of cases, you do not need the latest and greatest to do the job.

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