The Situation in the Ukraine. #9

In short if anyone ask "is there any Russian in Donbass" I would like to answer I DON'T CARE AND IT IS MEANINGLESS.

Reasons:

1)You like it or not, Novorossiyan separatists are the one who shoulder the burden of war, not Russian armed forces.

2)Kyiv goverment is a pathetic bunch of scumbags and facists who are puppets of the West and committed horrible crimes against their own people.

3)Kyiv armed forces are a pathetic, irresponsible group of weaklings who are trying to dump all their weaknesses into Russia.

4)The West has already been meddling in Ukrainian internal affairs.

End of story.

http://russia-insider.com/en/military_politics_ukraine_business/2014/11/20/04-45-48pm/one-pager_latest_developments_russia_rf

RUSSIA ISOLATED? Not at APEC – here’s the thousand word photo. And not at G20 either – BRICS had a happy meeting. The West and its tame media is seriously deluding itself with this Russia is isolated stuff.


Isolation
NEW NWO. Russia bought 55 tonnes of gold in the last quarter. What’s that mean? here’s a theory. (Ukraine’s gold, on the other hand, is almost all gone.) Meanwhile, an arms sale to China. Sberbank offers Yuans. Another huge gas deal. Increasing military cooperation. India-China. New financial instruments. Petrodollar. Russia-Pakistan. It marches. Who thought Ukraine would be so important?

NUKES. Russia has them; they work: Bulava, Topol and Sineva. Meanwhile, in the USA not so much.



NONSENSE. It's never easy to pick the most idiotic anti-Russian rant but here’s the latest: “Putin’s Russia is one of the most loathsomely misogynistic countries in the world”. Fact: Russia has more women in senior management than any one else. But, it’s Russia, what do facts have to do with it?

RUBLE. Has fallen quite a lot against the USD (but so have most other currencies). Here's an analysis of the pros and cons. But the ruble price of oil is about the same.

SANCTIONS. They’re hurting Russia, but Europe more. Industrial production continues to rise in Russia but inflation is too. In Europe industrial production is down. Remember, it’s not that Russia was such a big market for the EU but that it was about the only one that was growing: Russia can substitute; the EU cannot. So why is Europe ruining itself in such a questionable cause?

RUSSIA A GOOD INVESTMENT? The famous Jim Rogers thinks so. Give it a read, he’s made a lot of money going against the common view.

POROSHENKO GIVES THE GAME AWAY. Watch this short video: “Their children will hole up in basements”. Why would they be in basements? Because his government is shelling them, that’s why. Even Human Rights Watch has stopped pretending they don’t know who’s firing the artillery into civilian areas in east Ukraine. That’s what the West is supporting. But Putin has drawn the line. “Today there is fighting in eastern Ukraine. The Ukrainian central authorities have sent the armed forces there and they even use ballistic missiles. Does anybody speak about it? Not a single word. And what does it mean? What does it tell us? This points to the fact, that you want the Ukrainian central authorities to annihilate everyone there, all of their political foes and opponents. Is that what you want? We certainly don't. And we won't let it happen.”

GORBACHEV. The West is not pleased: in Berlin for the celebrations, he bluntly said the world was on the edge of a new Cold War, and they should listen to what Putin said at Valdai. And he supports Putin and the annexation of Crimea.

MH17. A Russian TV channel published, with great excitement, a photo showing a fighter plane firing. One Russian says the photo is fake; another says it isn’t. (In Russian, but you’ll get the idea). For what it’s worth, the US State Department’s files were just hacked. I don't know; you decide. Unfortunately (and maybe not by accident) this has obscured more radar evidence of military aircraft near it. (For those who think it’s open and shut, go to 6:11 on this CBC interview with one of the first OSCE people on the scene: you may be surprised at what you hear). But the fix may already be in with a secrecy agreement.

RUSSIA INVADES UKRAINE! Someone added them up: 26 breathless headlines since February. And not a smidgeon of evidence. “If Russia had invaded, you wouldn’t have to ask; if you have to ask, it hasn’t.” Help, supplies, advice, very possible; formed combat units, no. If, however, the US arms Kiev as McCain wants, then weapons will flow from Russia. But no “invasion” because the Donbass militias don’t need them: where they get weapons, their best weapons, how they win. The result (VERY gruesome).

RUSSIAN INCURSIONS. Much about Russian ship and aircraft activity. This is never mentioned: “In recent months, the number of NATO jets in the skies over our Eastern Allies has increased five times. We have deployed more ships in the Baltic and the Black Sea. And this year, we are conducting over 200 NATO and national exercises in Europe.” What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. And then, some “Russian” aircraft in Sweden turn out to be French or American. War propaganda.

Without peace in Ukraine, the humanitarian crisis will be uncontrollable -
See more at: http://www.european-left.org/fr/positions/news-archive/without-peace-ukraine-humanitarian-crisis-will-be-uncontrollable#sthash.ItwiFKcx.dpuf

sepheronx wrote:So in that same regard, if he states that Ukraine is responsible for the shootdown of the MH-17, then it must be correct, since it was mentioned by strelkov.

That said, I am happy to hear that Russia is supporting Novorussia. Now its hurting US pride that others do what they do now.

Regardless of this bitchfest between TR1 and others, more development of collapse of Ukraine would be nice. Glad to know my ancestral homeland is a dump...

I wonder how much equipment in T-80's they got, and what models? Anyone got info on that? It was mentioned by saker that Russia provided T-80's but no further clarification.

As for using mercs, both sides are guilty. Georgian mercs caught, fricking video release from some dead guys helmet cam where they are all speaking english...

Not surprising. When there is war, thereis money to be made.

There are no T-80s in Donbass, I am not sure where you got the idea?

Vann7 wrote:You are also the genius who believe that Russia is the one sending T-72b3 to Ukraine ,so that later they can be photographed and filmed and the European Union have conclusive evidence of Russian invasion and sanction more them?  In short you are very naive. It will have been VERY VERY EASY for NATO to send a couple of T-72 tanks (that many countries have) configured with French Equipment and that US in public ASKED to everyone to supply to Ukraine and armed with french equipment that they specially installed ,only for this conflict..  for what purpose? TO frame Russia.  So if the REbels in eastern Ukraine are showing what looks like T-72b3s in eastern Ukraine that should give you a fucking hint to you that Russian ARmy is NOT there ,because they will have asked NOT do it.. or either Russia really don't care about more sanctions ,so thats why they send equipment that could trace them helping.  You are a geniussssssssssssssss  NOT.  

\

Unfortunate for you, the evidence is very very strong.

The rebels captured a T-72 they thought was a Ukrainian variant. They filmed it in and out- and guess what?
It is T-72B3 in and out. The damn serials match UVZ modernization markers from recent years.
Just because you are too ignorant to know what even makes a T-72B3 (admit it, you had no damn clue what the tank even was before this whole mess), does not mean others are.

So let's see what you are proposing. The evil EU/Ukraine conspired to modify a T-72 exactly among the lines of a T-72B3, down to some very suspicious serials all over the tank.
But then....they let one be captured by the rebels on the assumption that the rebels would not realize it is one of their own, and film it in and out, and in such a way present evidence that Russia is helping them one way or another?
How convoluted and stupid is that?

No. That is not what happened. What happened is Russian tanks were sent across the border, in large numbers.
T-64B and A, T-72B,BM,and B3.

Deal with it.

sepheronx wrote:

TR1 wrote:

sepheronx wrote:So in that same regard, if he states that Ukraine is responsible for the shootdown of the MH-17, then it must be correct, since it was mentioned by strelkov.

That said, I am happy to hear that Russia is supporting Novorussia. Now its hurting US pride that others do what they do now.

Regardless of this bitchfest between TR1 and others, more development of collapse of Ukraine would be nice. Glad to know my ancestral homeland is a dump...

I wonder how much equipment in T-80's they got, and what models? Anyone got info on that? It was mentioned by saker that Russia provided T-80's but no further clarification.

As for using mercs, both sides are guilty. Georgian mercs caught, fricking video release from some dead guys helmet cam where they are all speaking english...

Not surprising. When there is war, thereis money to be made.

There are no T-80s in Donbass, I am not sure where you got the idea?

It was on a Saker article that was either posted here before or I have read on Russia Insider.  It mentioned T-80's being sent.  If not, that sucks.  But if they sent tanks, besides possibly T-72B3's. I wonder what else?  T-80's would be logical since Russia is trying to get rid of them and it is still a capable tank.

T-80 would make no sense at all.
1.) Ukraine operates none. There is no deniability there whatsoever.
2.) The fuel consumption is much higher than T-72. Rebels are not functioning with a high class supply system too.

They have sent T-64s, and T-72s.

1.) Because either the guys in the gov are morons or just don't care that anyone with two set of brains can tell the vehicles are from Russia. Hell, they sent T-64s across Russia without any cover, so that they could easily be IDed in Donbass. Why not basic precautions, cover them up with tarp at least?
2.) Another reason is because it is very likely IMO those T-72B3s had recently (or very very very recently, as in, on "vacation") active Russian crews. Some of the units deployed on the border (Russian Army) were mounted on T-72B3s.....you can put the rest together. Went in, did work, pulled out. Most of the rebel forces that have been filmed in longer-term combat have more generic equipment-T-72Bs and T-64s.


Ukraine made T-80UD, but they do not operate the tank today. Russia has plenty of T-72Bs and crews that know how to use them, this is a potential problem with T-64s. T-72B3 is just ridiculous and throwing all dependability out the window. Which leads me to think that they just don't care, or want Ukraine to know they are not shy about involvement.

T-64 does not use GTD (gas turbine), so its consumption is not nearly as extreme.

The thing is, even the first T-64s they sent, back in the days when they had fairly good deniability of sending heavy equipment in....were sent in a way that could be IDed by careful eye.

The T-72B3 sent into Donbass does not have the Panoramic sight.
However presumably the thermals could be very useful if tactics were specially adapted around their availability. Maybe that is why they sent them in for the big counter strike, because they have thermals.

Other than that, assuming the rebel crews are for the most part NOT recent or active Russian troops/volunteers, T-72B would be fine and makes more sense than T-72B3. Armor is same, mobility is same, plus there are a lot more people who trained on T-72B than on T-72B3.

TR1 wrote:Wow, that is some powerful evasion there bud. Both regarding Strelkov's interview and magical T-72B3s.
Did you see the video where the rebs captured back a T-72B3? Man, must have been hard for you to watch. They even filmed the interior and made it beyond obvious what it was.

Powerful evasion? Where you looking in the mirror when you posted that lol!  The only rebuke you've had so far against OSCE claims of "no visible evidence of Russian military movement in to Ukraine", is that "they can't investigate the entire border"...meanwhile a sorry-ass charlatan such as yourself made '0' attempt to investigate any border movement, when snake oil salesman like you posture like you've made a serious effort lmao!

"ZOMG T72B3's" Like there weren't T-72's in Ukraine prior to the conflict , and the Sonsa-U gunner site is a Belorussian product (not Russian) and despite pressure from Moscow to stop cooperation with Ukraine, Belarus still maintains significant military cooperation with Ukraine...hence the reason why countless Ukrainian products can be found at the latest Belorussian arms expos. Further evidence of military technological cooperation is the Shershen ATGM, which was co-developed between Ukraine and Belarus. But of course Miss Cleo you'll site a Ruptly video for evidence of invasion of "Russian T-72B3's" something the OSCE found no evidence of, but of course with your ridiculous confirmation bias you go from saying "RT isn't reliable on anything Russian military related", to siting Ruptly (a sister media organization of RT) video as main evidence of Russian military movement in Ukraine LMAO! How ridiculously pathetic!

And as far as  so called "Strelkov's new claims" go..Before the Clogosphere claimed he hated Putin because his intelligence agencies were undermining him, and now all of sudden Russian integellence is aiding him? Sounds like two competing and contradicting claims, just like how Strelkov was 'killed', now he's 'alive' again. Similarly Babay was 'killed', now he's 'alive' again. This is no longer the fog of war, this is the smoke from Miss Cleo, aka TR1's crack pipe lol!

sepheronx wrote:1. So in that same regard, if he states that Ukraine is responsible for the shootdown of the MH-17, then it must be correct, since it was mentioned by strelkov.

2.That said, I am happy to hear that Russia is supporting Novorussia. Now its hurting US pride that others do what they do now.



3. As for using mercs, both sides are guilty. Georgian mercs caught, fricking video release from some dead guys helmet cam where they are all speaking english...

1. He could be very well right too. Ukraine should be suspects. Strelkov is a sound guy, IMHO.
2. The way it's done... it will be in military text books 

3. Refresh Your memory. Longer video was published on Praviy Sektor twitter and on mp.net. Not all of them were speaking English. It was claimed that they were killed, but actually not. I might dig this video later. There is nothing interesting apart some broken English chatter. Probably some idiot Nazi from Europe. Let's hope that they ended up in Ilovaisk.

sepheronx wrote:

Werewolf wrote:Always this double standards from our western lovers.

IF russia would topple Mexico and install a government that is directly attacking USA and considering stationing russian military bases along with ABM or better IRBM weapons there, you would support every crap shit the US would take as action, but when Russia tries to survive against evil empirial shit the US is doing, installing nazi puppet jews that are looting and genociding russians than Russia has no right but US is and can happily steal ukrainian gold, get their oil, use terrorists (Blackwater) and NATO terrorist soldiers there and only one is to blame.

This world of pro western stooges is a freaking joke, they forget what happened on maidan with Israeli Depopulation Forces among Nazis killing policemen and overthrowing the government, mass murder without any investigation nor any jailing in odessa and mariopol, Maidan sniping of western blackops, no investigation there, Nuland leaked phone call that is direct proof that they have overthrown the government but there are still some imbecile americanized idiots like TR1 who are only pointing on russia for giving ukrainian T-64 tanks from crimea and jerking like a 12 year old kiddo who just found the use of his dick for the first time.

Bad, bad russia, don't you dare trying to defend yourself. Let your hands down we the USA want to hit you in the face don't you think anyone would accept your aggression.

I am pretty certain TR1 and Regular mentioned prior, that they are not against what Russia is doing by sending equipment/support to Novorussia, but they are against the fact that the media and the government where saying that they were not sending equipment and fabricating various information like that Sukhoi jet on the satellite photo.  That is what I am interpreting.

I hate how this conflict is handled politically and I hate is this pathetic infowar by both sides.  
Military wise Russia is a top dog and I think they deserve respect not only for Crimean operation.  
I hate the way that there is such inconsistency of Moscow and carrot and stick tactics against separatists.
Sometimes it looks like money is more important than lives and reputation.

Athanasios Cosse -
Greek national killed near Donietsk airport by the Kiev thugs
http://13571113.blogspot.gr/2014/11/blog-post.html
http://www.imerisia.gr/article.asp?catid=26510&subid=2&pubid=113392486

He was born in Ukrain by Greek father and he was living in Greece last 26 years.
He was Historian and Photo-reporter by profesion and he was living in Greece in Kalithea district. He has two children and traveled back to Donietsk area where his mother still is living , to protect her and bring her to Greece.

There he joint the Donietsk - Novorussia army and he was fighting near airport area , and he was also colecting matelial to publish a book on fascism in Ukraine.
He was killed during Ukranian bombardment near the airport 18th Nov. RIP

May he rest in peace. He was defending the people of Donbass from the Kiev war criminals and their random shelling butchery.
He was not attacking Kiev regime controlled Ukraine. The war in the Donbass is one of the most asymmetrical in history. I have
not seen any evidence of the rebels attacking regime controlled towns and cities. The small actions in Mariupol and Kharkov do
not count for much.

In spite of all the fluff in the last few pages there has not been presented a single speck of evidence of Russian forces in Ukraine.
Some T-72B3s don't count. The regime has much more equipment, including upgraded T-72s and T-80s. The propaganda being
parroted by the western media is that there are Russian troops in Ukraine. Put up or shut up.

kvs wrote:May he rest in peace.  He was defending the people of Donbass from the Kiev war criminals and their random shelling butchery.
He was not attacking Kiev regime controlled Ukraine.   The war in the Donbass is one of the most asymmetrical in history.   I have
not seen any evidence of the rebels attacking regime controlled towns and cities.   The small actions in Mariupol and Kharkov do
not count for much.  

RIP to the Greek. Too many people got killed over what it looks like surface od the moon land with no strategic value.

12th of Nov Andeevka was shelled. Not sure about casualties. Mariupol was shelled by seps and there were few civilian casualties. But then again Ukrainian army like separatists hide in urban areas and even build blockposts near civilian buildings. Both sides can be blamed because of that.
Never heard about Kharkov being hit. Care to share info about that? Or You are talking about attack on military hospital? (stupid act imho, there re more targets to sabotage)

Regular wrote:

kvs wrote:May he rest in peace.  He was defending the people of Donbass from the Kiev war criminals and their random shelling butchery.
He was not attacking Kiev regime controlled Ukraine.   The war in the Donbass is one of the most asymmetrical in history.   I have
not seen any evidence of the rebels attacking regime controlled towns and cities.   The small actions in Mariupol and Kharkov do
not count for much.  

12th of Nov Andeevka was shelled. Not sure about casualties. Mariupol was shelled by seps and there were few civilian casualties. ever heard about Kharkov hit. Care to share info about that? Or You are talking about attack on military hospital? (stupid act imho, there re more targets to sabotage)

Ukropy nazis have shown hospitals are legitimate targets and in comperision what novorussia has on casualties over month it would be great if the rest of idiots and lazy pussies in ukraine stand up against nazis, but what i tell you, you lithunians don't see nazis as something bad.

whats that has to do with me? you are from Germany where Nazism was born and it should be in your blood. 
Military hospital is bad target as there are weapon factories in Kharkov. Power grid would be more important, now it looks like someone stepped to their level. Then again it could be anyone who did this, Kharkov is prorussian city. No one took responsibility so it could be lone guy with some chemistry knowledge.

Regular wrote:whats that has to do with me? you are from Germany where Nazism was born and it should be in your blood. 
Military hospital is bad target as there are weapon factories in Kharkov. Power grid would be more important, now it looks like someone stepped to their level. Then again it could be anyone who did this, Kharkov is prorussian city. No one took responsibility so it could be lone guy with some chemistry knowledge.

Nazism wasn't born in germany and unlike your country there is no open and wide nazi nostalgia and sympathy. And saying "nazism" should be in someones blood is not only racist but also very concerning how a politicized "ideology" or better to say stupidology can be in someones blood.

Or it could be naziguard that did that, they already do that in novorussia and to those nazis, mariopol, odessa and other regions and cities are "russians" which they count as subhuman so yes the likelyness is on ukropy nazi side.

Werewolf wrote:

Nazism wasn't born in germany and unlike your country there is no open and wide nazi nostalgia and sympathy. And saying "nazism" should be in someones blood is not only racist but also very concerning how a politicized "ideology" or better to say stupidology can be in someones blood.

Mixing countries. Nazis are not loved here. Nazis had no love for us too. Plus my nationality doesn't make any difference, my hated president is in charge so how does that equal me with a country?

Or it could be naziguard that did that, they already do that in novorussia and to those nazis, mariopol, odessa and other regions and cities are "russians" which they count as subhuman so yes the likelyness is on ukropy nazi side.

attacked their own hospital?

kvs wrote:May he rest in peace.  He was defending the people of Donbass from the Kiev war criminals and their random shelling butchery.
He was not attacking Kiev regime controlled Ukraine.   The war in the Donbass is one of the most asymmetrical in history.   I have
not seen any evidence of the rebels attacking regime controlled towns and cities.   The small actions in Mariupol and Kharkov do
not count for much.  

In spite of all the fluff in the last few pages there has not been presented a single speck of evidence of Russian forces in Ukraine.
Some T-72B3s don't count.   The regime has much more equipment, including upgraded T-72s and T-80s.    The propaganda being
parroted by the western media is that there are Russian troops in Ukraine.  Put up or shut up.

Show me the T-80s. Go ahead champ.
And show me Ukrainian forces using upgraded T-72s.

Some T-72B3s don't count, rofl.


BTR-82s are also paper mache Ukranian fakes right?
Kornet tubes, also fakes yes?