Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Share

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts : 2193
    Points : 3099
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:12 pm

    The missile complex "Hermes" will replace "Attack" - the developer
    26.08.2009



    Flight tests of a new missile system "Hermes" will be held in 2010, after which it will be adopted for Russia's army, told RIA Novosti on Sunday, Head of Delegation Instrument Design Bureau (KBP Tula) at the air show MAKS-2009 Yuri Savenko.

    This complex is the first time exhibited at the air show. He must replace the set of "Attack", which is also developed at the turn of PMA 2000 and since that time is on the arms.

    "The system is designed to destroy tanks, armored personnel carriers, long-term firing points bunker and bunker-type, low-altitude low-speed air targets, surface targets and enemy personnel in shelters for more than 15 kilometers." Attack "is designed to engage targets at a distance 6.8 kilometers, "- said Savenkov.

    According to him, a set of Hermes can be placed on helicopters, airplanes, ships, and work on the ground. "We are planning to hold next year, its flight tests, and in 2011-2012 to run this complex series production for the Defense Ministry", - said the representative of KBP.

    Primarily this complex will arm entering Air Force Mi-28N and Ka-52.

    Savenkov also said that the caliber of "Hermes" is combined with Russia's newest missile-gun complexes "Pantsir S1. Therefore, in future, these complexes will also be able to have as part of its missile weapons Hermes.

    PMA plans to further increase the range of complex Hermes up to 20 kilometers and more, and such work is already underway.

    Savenkov also said that the supersonic guided missile "Hermes" is the inertial or radio command guidance system on a plot output in the target region and homing in the terminal phase. "That is, the operator must be on your screen to put a missile at a target, give the command to start and can fire and forget. The rest of it will make itself," - he said.

    Mass of the missile is 28 kilograms, speed - 1000 meters per second, ammunition - 16 missiles.

    Права на данный материал принадлежат РИА Новости

    Viktor
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5630
    Points : 6283
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Viktor on Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:04 pm

    So are we speaking here abut fire and forget missile?

    Homing in the therminal phase (IIC perhaps) while speeding 1000m/s and with 15-20 km range would make Russian Ka-52/28 deadliest catch around ... by far ....

    Great article .. I read something similar few days ago but there was never mentioned fire and forget capability ...just great.

    KBP TULA

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts : 2193
    Points : 3099
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:01 pm

    http://www.missiles.ru/germes-a.htm

    Vladimir79
    Grand Marshal
    Grand Marshal

    Posts : 2193
    Points : 3099
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:18 am

    Long-range ATGM "Hermes" is a promising set of new generation of precision-guided weapons - a reconnaissance and firing anti-tank systems, multi-purpose, combining the properties of artillery and anti-tank systems. The complex is designed to defeat current and future armored vehicles, soft-skinned vehicles, stationary engineering structures, surface targets, low-altitude low-speed air targets and manpower in shelters.

    The complex is designed in Instrument Design Bureau (Tula), under the leadership of AG Shipunova.

    Hermes opens new directions for combat use anti-tank weapons - carry his fire into the depths of the band of the enemy units and the possibility of reflection attacks on any part of the defense without changing the firing position. This will prevent the recruitment and deployment of armored units of the enemy on the frontiers of attack while reducing its own losses. Using this tactic makes the task of a radical expansion of the range-range reconnaissance and destruction of armored units promising anti-tank systems to be able to cover the entire area of responsibility of its units for exploration and defeat the enemy on the full depth of the near-tactical zone (25 - 30 km). Moreover, since modern armored group is a complex mobile system, for the destruction of such groups requires an integrated fire destruction of all range of purposes, included in its structure, as well as other targets of different classes, which operate in the offensive zone.

    ATGM "Hermes is built on a modular principle which allows to optimize the composition of the borrowed funds, depending on the tasks, it is reasonable to combine different ways of pointing at the various firing ranges as well as host complex on land, air and sea carriers.

    The use of external detection and targeting, including those placed on remotely piloted vehicles (RPV), can more fully realize the core of the concept of "non-contact war, reduce turnaround time and expand the range of tasks involving the minimum number of forces and means, and also to minimize the material costs of operations.

    Testing of aviation variant complex Hermes-A "in the armed attack helicopter Ka-52 completed in the summer of 2003. Complex Hermes-A has been prepared for serial production.



    Alternative land-based

    Composition of the complex:

    ammunition guided missiles in the transport-launch containers (TPC) with three types of homing (semi-active laser, infrared, radar);

    combat vehicle with a launcher batch type (from 24 WPK) with airborne reconnaissance and laser illumination purposes;

    Engine fire control masted lifting apparatus for multi-channel, multispectral electro-optical and radar reconnaissance assets, which is designed for reconnaissance, detection and identification purposes, tseleraspredeleniya and target designation.

    Launch Hermes with detachable booster has a universal high-explosive fragmentation warhead. Controls - aerodynamic control surfaces. Type start - from the WPK expelling charge. For large range (up to 100 km) rocket launch vehicle is equipped with larger caliber. Control system - a combination: the initial part of the missile is controlled by an inertial system (for versions with a range of 15-18km) or radio command (for versions with a range of 40 and 100km), the terminal phase is carried out semi-active homing missiles at a target on it reflects the laser radiation or other types of homing.

    Target designation for Hermes may issue as its own control vehicle mounted on an armored tracked chassis and capable of acting directly in combat formations, as well as manned and unmanned aircraft equipped with appropriate equipment, as well as infantry, having a mobile set of automated remote control fire " Malachite. For targeting can be used and combined arms reconnaissance. This provides "Hermes" high flexibility and low response time to call fire.

    Algorithms used as a basis for building management system, allows the operator to quickly make a decision about the attack and respond to changing combat situation, which reduces the overall response time of the complex to a few seconds. Smoothly and error-free operation of the system control is provided of the hardware and software redundancy.

    For coastal defense version of the proposed complex in the steady-state performance.


    The structure of complex control equipment includes:

    stabilized day / night optical-electronic system with a television and infrared channels (standard for information exchange MIL STD 1553);

    its conjugate a computer system with dual laser designator and automatic target tracking;

    additional equipment (multi-color LCD display and control panel, display facilities and documentation).

    Complex Hermes provides:

    the possibility of fire from prepared and unprepared firing positions, including closed on a "shot - forget"

    fired a volley with individual guidance on the elements of group goals (by 2 SD in a volley of semi-active laser homing head and up to 12 SD in the volley in the use of autonomous homing);

    all-weather activities in actual combat conditions;

    flexible tactical cooperation with the attached resources exploration and management of ground and air bases;

    placing on military vehicles of various classes.

    Option airborne

    For the survival of helicopters - carriers guided weapons and the performance of combat tasks in a fire and counter enemy information they need to be able to implement:

    hidden out in the area of attack when flying at extremely low altitudes (20-50 m) c using the screening effect of terrain and vegetation;

    - Short-term "jump" at a given height in the zone of attack for intelligence purposes and the use of guided weapons.

    This elevation hung or flying helicopters should be minimal (30-100 m) and residence time (ideally - is less than the response time of air defense systems) - to 10-15 with or comparable to it.

    Complex "Hermes-A airborne can hit targets at a distance of 15-18 km, being himself inaccessible to fire anti-aircraft fire near the enemy abroad. To derive the rocket in the region capturing target homing head uses inertial guidance system. In this case, the functional composition of the complex elements of the excluded radio command, accommodation on board the aircraft which the carrier is problematic. Vsesutochnost application provides day / night optical-electronic system with dual laser designator and automatic tracking of targets with a range of optical channels (television, thermal imaging, laser designator / rangefinder) to 15-25 km, which does not concede the possibility of controlled weapons.

    Hermes-A (aviation)

    Option sea-based

    Complex Hermes-K is intended to address the urgent problem of equipping the small-sized high-precision missile system boats, corvettes, landing ships, whose numbers in the Navy RF 4 times higher than the ships of the far sea zone, and vulnerability due to the smaller sizes below.

    Using complex Hermes-K for small patrol boats to combat surface ships firing range advisable to have equal to 15-18 km. With its location on the landing ships and corvettes, facing more important challenges, in particular struggle with large surface targets and suppression of enemy coastal defense - at least 25-30 km. This carrier is able to execute complex combat mission, while remaining outside the effective range of enemy artillery.

    Complex Hermes-K "sea-based, designed to equip small-tonnage boats, for the withdrawal of missiles in the target region using inertsiapnuyu guidance system. For surface ships with a displacement of several hundred tons of output missiles in the target region is provided by radio command guidance system, which includes radar and command transmitter on board SD (similar to land-based variant). This complex is capable of a single missile to cause the level of deadweight losses sea targets up to a displacement of 100 tons and larger deprive the combat capability of getting into the vital parts (cutting, intelligence systems, the storage of ammunition).

    Multipurpose complex sea-based Hermes-K is also capable of striking low-speed aerial targets (helicopters) without any additional anti-aircraft fire.






    The performance characteristics

    Firing range, km 15-40-100
    Max speed, m / s 1300
    Average speed at a distance of 40km, m / s 500
    Starting weight of the rocket, kg 90
    Weight missiles in TPK, 107 kg
    Weight of warhead, kg 28
    Weight of explosives, kg 18
    Penetration of the ERA, mm 1000
    Body diameter rockets, 130 mm
    Diameter boosters, mm 170 (210 for the version with a range of 100km)
    The length of the WPK, mm 3500
    Wing span, 240 mm

    http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/hermes/hermes.shtml

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:17 pm

    Go to this page and look at the animation in the lower left hand side of the page.

    http://www.zala.aero./

    (note it shows A Ka-50 attack helo with a large box under one pylon and it releases a UAV that flys forward and scouts for targets for the helo to attack.
    The helo depicted is the Ka-50 but this is more likely to be used by the two seat Ka-52 scout helo)

    Combine UAVs with missiles with a range of 20km or more and it seems they will have a rather potent setup.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5681
    Points : 6087
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Austin on Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:15 pm

    I had a question for Mindstorm if he has returned back from kremlin party Smile

    Considering Kornet with a warhead weight of 8 kg with Tandem HEAT has a CE of 1100-1300 in export model.

    The Hermes actually has 28 kg warhead which is like more then 3 times of Kornet , is it possible if armed with tandem heat it can get over say 1800 - 2000 CE and can penetrate frontal armour of Western heavies ?

    TR1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5840
    Points : 5892
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:11 pm

    Austin wrote:I had a question for Mindstorm if he has returned back from kremlin party Smile

    Considering Kornet with a warhead weight of 8 kg with Tandem HEAT has a CE of 1100-1300 in export model.

    The Hermes actually has 28 kg warhead which is like more then 3 times of Kornet , is it possible if armed with tandem heat it can get over say 1800 - 2000 CE and can penetrate frontal armour of Western heavies ?

    The diameter is what matters, not warhead weight when talking about HEAT penetration. It would be shocking if Hermes has penetration that high, and even if it did we would have to take spaced and layered armor into account. Would be monstrous though.

    TheArmenian
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1528
    Points : 1691
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:50 pm

    By the way, what is the status of the Hermes? Is it still in testing? adopted? Cancelled?
    The Russians are being very open with some weapon systems and very secretive with others.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:27 am

    The Hermes actually has 28 kg warhead which is like more then 3 times of Kornet , is it possible if armed with tandem heat it can get over say 1800 - 2000 CE and can penetrate frontal armour of Western heavies ?

    Its warhead will be like the Vikhr in terms of design as it will have dual goals as a HEAT warhead and as a HE Frag warhead too.
    This is not hard to achieve... a Heat warhead needs a precise location for detonation to make the explosive form the plasma jet and direct it at the enemy armour. Detonation from anywhere else in the HE will result in undirected explosion more akin to a HE frag explosion. Fragmentation material around the HE charge will not reduce the HEAT penetration but will make it more multi purpose.

    Too costly, not happening now. All in all it performed fine, a dedicated urban kit is really enough. Let's hope the US doesn't get stuck in another conflict any time soon, and the need will be superfluous.

    I remember in the 1980s and 90s they were talking about dedicated urban warfare vehicle kits for Bradley and the Abrams, but they decided that urban warfare is just too costly in terms of casualties that they would just avoid urban combat situations.

    From Somalia and Iraq and Afghanistan they have found they often don't get a choice in the matter...

    The diameter is what matters, not warhead weight when talking about HEAT penetration. It would be shocking if Hermes has penetration that high, and even if it did we would have to take spaced and layered armor into account. Would be monstrous though.

    Diameter is important but with a really large warhead you can cheat.

    The Hermes probably wont need a large warhead simply because the terminal guidance should allow a diving top attack profile for armoured targets.

    The size of the missile however means that a full calibre precursor charge in the nose just behind the seeker to deal with ERA and start the penetration of armour, with a mid mounted main charge and a rear mounted full calibre secondary charge would maximise the armour penetration potential of the missile.

    They have already developed a 125mm tank HEAT round with two full calibre HEAT warheads and a small nose mounted precursor charge to defeat ERA, so doing the same in a large missile is no problem at all.

    The Hellfire has two full calibre HEAT warheads to maximise penetration.

    By the way, what is the status of the Hermes? Is it still in testing? adopted? Cancelled?
    The Russians are being very open with some weapon systems and very secretive with others.

    AFAIK it is moving forward and the missile design itself is being unified with the SA-22 missile of the Pantsir-S1. The difference is that the Hermes in its different versions will use different solid rocket boosters and will have a range of guidance systems, including IIR, Glonass, MMW radar, and SALH.

    I rather suspect the issue will be terminal guidance options for getting the best bang for their buck... making them cheap enough to be used a lot, but also accurate enough to be worth using.
    The different guidance options suit different targets, with MMW and IIR suitable for armour, while GLONASS guidance would be useful for area fixed targets, and of course in good weather SALH for almost any target.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5681
    Points : 6087
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Austin on Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:34 am

    TR1 wrote:The diameter is what matters, not warhead weight when talking about HEAT penetration. It would be shocking if Hermes has penetration that high, and even if it did we would have to take spaced and layered armor into account. Would be monstrous though.

    If i am not wrong Hermer is a larger caliber weapon compared to 152 mm Kornet.

    What is the point in having a 3x times warhead in Hermes if the tandem heat cannot do a 1800 mm for CE ?

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5681
    Points : 6087
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Austin on Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:56 am

    Ok I stand corrected the Hermes is a 130 mm weapon its only the booster that is like 170 mm to 210 mm depending on the range.

    What is the advantage of then carrying say 28 kg warhead which is of Heat type over 8Kg of HEAT warhead in Kornet with 152 mm weapon ?


    TheArmenian
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1528
    Points : 1691
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:46 am

    [quote="GarryB"]
    AFAIK it is moving forward and the missile design itself is being unified with the SA-22 missile of the Pantsir-S1. The difference is that the Hermes in its different versions will use different solid rocket boosters and will have a range of guidance systems, including IIR, Glonass, MMW radar, and SALH.

    I rather suspect the issue will be terminal guidance options for getting the best bang for their buck... making them cheap enough to be used a lot, but also accurate enough to be worth using.
    The different guidance options suit different targets, with MMW and IIR suitable for armour, while GLONASS guidance would be useful for area fixed targets, and of course in good weather SALH for almost any target.

    If the Hermes is indeed a unified missile shared with the Pantsir....How about using the Pantsir Air Defense vehicles as launch platforms for the Hermes?
    In that case, the Pantsir complex will be a SAM system, an Antitank system and a guided artillery system!!!!

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:23 am

    What is the advantage of then carrying say 28 kg warhead which is of Heat type over 8Kg of HEAT warhead in Kornet with 152 mm weapon ?

    On paper ATGMs are designed to kill tanks. In actual practise however most ATGMs are actually used like direct fire guns or mortars... in other words the Javelin costs an enormous amount of money but is primarily used to hit rooms in buildings where the enemy is firing a rifle or MG from.

    Their accuracy and their ability to place a HE warhead on a small target at extended ranges outside the range of small arms return fire make them very useful on the battlefield.

    The Hermes is able to take on a much wider range of targets including concrete and log bunkers.

    In many ways HERMES is part artillery and part ATGM.

    If the Hermes is indeed a unified missile shared with the Pantsir....How about using the Pantsir Air Defense vehicles as launch platforms for the Hermes?
    In that case, the Pantsir complex will be a SAM system, an Antitank system and a guided artillery system!!!!

    The main difference will likely be cost as the launch vehicle for HERMES is a low cost truck that could have as many as 20-30 missiles ready to launch.

    The irony is that the SA-22 missile uses command guidance all the way to impact, so the sensors on the SA-22 launcher are MMW and CM wave radar and Thermal optics... all fairly expensive, but the missiles themselves are relatively cheap.

    The HERMES on the other hand with radio command guidance to the target area and terminal guidance the launch vehicle is cheap, but the missiles are more expensive.

    I don't really think Pantsir-S1 would be used with HERMES missiles, but I think parking a HERMES truck with SA-22 missiles amongst a Pantsir-S1 battery might make it much more capable against a swarm attack...

    In many ways a HERMES vehicle with GLONASS guided missiles is a bit like a 152mm MTSA battery with GLONASS guided shells... there is a bit of overlap in performance here, but I think the major user of HERMES will be Su-25 and Ka-52/Mi-28M.

    For the Su-25 in particular the HERMES will be a significant improvement as its range of up to 20km will provide standoff capability from the target area, and of course unlike the Vikhr-M with a flight speed of about 610m/s the HERMES leaves the tube and accelerates to about 1km/s very rapidly.

    Of course you could argue that the Kornet EM system is an ATGM, a SAM, and Artillery too, though with its lighter warheads it will be lighter artillery and shorter range.

    TheArmenian
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1528
    Points : 1691
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:23 am

    The KBP website quoted the ground launched version of Hermes to have a range of 100 km.
    While the air-launched versions are at 20 km.


    http://kbptula.ru/eng/multi/hermes.htm
    http://kbptula.ru/eng/multi/hermesa.htm

    They have different boosters, different max. speeds and different max weights.

    Hermes seems to be a family of missiles.

    BTW, this is all off-topic and has nothing to do with the original thread.

    TR1
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5840
    Points : 5892
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:10 pm

    We need a general Russian ground equipment thread, to avoid spamming new threads for small topics, or little news tidbits.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:53 pm

    BTW I have read about three different booster options that result in missile flight ranges of 20km, 40km and 100km, where the latter two are ground or naval surface launch.

    Obviously there is little point in equipping a Ka-52 land based scout/attack helo with 100km range missiles, but for a Mistral based Ka-52 with a nose mounted AESA radar it might be useful.

    Hermes seems to be a family of missiles.

    It seems to be based on the SA-22 missile and have a range of boosters, seekers and warhead options. All are command guided to the target area, while the SA-22 is command guided all the way to the target, the various Hermes missiles have a range of different terminal guidance options likely adapted to a range of potential target types.

    We need a general Russian ground equipment thread, to avoid spamming new threads for small topics, or little news tidbits.

    This thread is rather long and a lot of posts to plough through to find information... of course there is a search function of course, but perhaps when we start on tangent discussions that perhaps a quick search of existing threads and then shifting that discussion to an existing or new thread might be necessary especially if the new topic goes well off topic.

    I am afraid I am as guilty as anyone of going off topic, though I try to keep my points relevant to what is being discussed the problem sometimes is when the discussion leaves the thread topic, so my posts are relevant to what is being discussed but not the threat topic.

    BTW good on you Mindstorm for getting us back on topic  sniper

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5681
    Points : 6087
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Austin on Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:12 am

    GarryB wrote:On paper ATGMs are designed to kill tanks. In actual practise however most ATGMs are actually used like direct fire guns or mortars... in other words the Javelin costs an enormous amount of money but is primarily used to hit rooms in buildings where the enemy is firing a rifle or MG from.

    Their accuracy and their ability to place a HE warhead on a small target at extended ranges outside the range of small arms return fire make them very useful on the battlefield.

    The Hermes is able to take on a much wider range of targets including concrete and log bunkers.

    In many ways HERMES is part artillery and part ATGM.

    Sorry but i still dont get it. We are talking of pure Tandem HEAT warhead here of 28 kg against a Tank , lets leave the bunker busting role aside.

    So if a 8 Kg tandem heat warhead can do 1100-1300 mm of CE , are we to assume that a 28 kg of warhead can exactly to 1100-1300 mm CE ? If that is the case what happens to addition 20 kg of warhead that hermes carried over Kornet , dissapears in thin air ?

    Why wont we see a better CE penetration figures with Hermes is actually my question for a very large warhead ?

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:47 am

    Of the 28kgs about 10kgs of the mass will be fragments.

    That leaves 18kgs of actual explosive in the warhead of the HERMES and the rest of the mass will be metal fragments and of course the shaped charge liner.

    The extra explosive mass will be used to make up for the lack of calibre, which is important for penetration.

    I rather suspect that the HERMES will be used against all sorts of targets and because of its terminal guidance it will likely use a diving top attack profile that means its armour penetration figures will likely be about 1m of steel behind ERA, because it is a balance between armour penetration and effect against unarmoured targets.

    If they want a missile to deal with heavy armour then they already have the Kh-29 with its 317kg shaped charge warhead missile that is designed to destroy the heavy concrete foundations of large structures like bridges.

    80kg IEDs flipped Abrams tanks in Iraq (Made of two 152mm shells... which would be of about 40kgs each), so a 317kg HE warhead would turn the crew into jam and would certainly penetrate the Abrams front to back.

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5681
    Points : 6087
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Austin on Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:10 pm

    I doubt Garry the explaination you give makes sense , I doubt a 8 kg HEAT will give you the same penetration of a 28 Kg explosive irrespective of caliber.

    Well to twist the argument if i have a 170 mm Caliber weapon with 6 Kg explosive it wont give me the same CE as 152 mm Kornet with 8 Kg.

    There is some thing in there and even they have not put any number on CE for Hermes on their website.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:26 pm

    I doubt Garry the explaination you give makes sense , I doubt a 8 kg HEAT will give you the same penetration of a 28 Kg explosive irrespective of caliber.

    But the 8kg is designed specifically for armour penetration in a dedicated anti tank missile. The 28kgs in the HERMES is in a multipurpose missile with a multipurpose warhead... and it is not a 28kg HE warhead, it is an 18kg HE warhead.

    Well to twist the argument if i have a 170 mm Caliber weapon with 6 Kg explosive it wont give me the same CE as 152 mm Kornet with 8 Kg.

    Armour penetration is normally expressed in calibres of the weapon being used with 5-6 a good penetration performance.

    In other words a 170mm calibre weapon with 6 calibres penetration would be just over 1020 mm, while a 152mm calibre weapon with 6 calibres penetration would be 912mm.

    If both weapons are designed purely for armour penetration then the extra weight of the explosives in the smaller weapon might result in improved penetration... but think about it for a few seconds... against a thin skinned vehicle like an APC a HEAT warhead will just burn a hole right through, whereas a HE round might not penetrate the armour but the shockwave might disable the vehicle and kill more of the crew.

    If the target is a log bunker then a Kornet will burn a hole in and make things uncomfortable inside for a short period, but a 28kg HE FRAG warhead will destroy it.

    The problem is that you seem to think the HERMES is an ATGM, but it is more like a light Maverick... it can perform the heavy ATGM role, but for every tank on the battlefield there are 50-100 targets that require HE but are not so heavily armoured as to need tank level penetration capabilities.

    Remember the Hermes is command guided so it would be rather easy to loft its trajectory up to make it come down nearly vertically on its target if need be... 100km range targets would almost certainly require a lofted flight trajectory to reach.

    Let me just say that while Kornet comes in a version with a HE and another version with a HEAT warhead, the HERMES comes with both. They clearly decided that 1,000mm of armour penetration under ERA was enough and the rest of the weight is in fragmentation to make it more effective against soft targets like aircraft or a radar or missile vehicle etc.

    There is some thing in there and even they have not put any number on CE for Hermes on their website.

    http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/hermes/hermes.shtml

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t339-the-missile-complex-hermes-will-replace-ataka

    Austin
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5681
    Points : 6087
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Age : 40
    Location : India

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Austin on Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:08 am

    Nice Explanation by you Garry and Mindstorm in the above post. I have voted for both post.

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:00 pm

    Happy to help... Smile

    The future Russian Army is going to have guided support weapons up the ying yang, from gun launched ATGMs, to ATGM units attached to motor rifle brigades, to independent ATGM units, and now guided artillery (both tube and rocket), and Hermes batteries and of course Kornet EM with its range of 8-10km.

    Half the problem for a T-90AM commander is to decide what dogs of war to let loose on the enemy positions...

    TheArmenian
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1528
    Points : 1691
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:03 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t339-the-missile-complex-hermes-will-replace-ataka

    Just as I suspected.
    From the above link:

    "Savenkov also said that the caliber of "Hermes" is combined with Russia's newest missile-gun complexes "Pantsir S1. Therefore, in future, these complexes will also be able to have as part of its missile weapons Hermes."

    By the way, thanks for all the explanations, analysis and immense patience.

    Mindstorm
    Captain
    Captain

    Posts : 737
    Points : 920
    Join date : 2011-07-20

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:22 pm

    Armour penetration is normally expressed in calibres of the weapon being used with 5-6 a good penetration performance.

    In other words a 170mm calibre weapon with 6 calibres penetration would be just over 1020 mm, while a 152mm calibre weapon with 6 calibres penetration would be 912mm.


    GarryB Manfred Held in its relation at the 19th International Symposium of Ballistics, 7–11 May 2001 " Active Protection Against Ke-Rounds And Shaped Charges At Short Distance" provide a ratio a bit higher :

    "The typical penetration capabilities of precision shaped charge warheads are in the range of 7 to 8 calibers which mean for a 150 mm shaped charge the penetration power of 1 m to 1.2 m.The penetration capability of KE-rounds is now also reduced by heavy or integrated ERA’s: These produced armors are fully stopping the KE rounds. The large tandem shaped charges are now the biggest threat for the tanks, because they avoid or reduce the effectiveness of any special armor and also of the heavy integrated ERA sandwiches."


    but,except for this little parametrical difformity, the core of your arguments remain all perfectly rounds.
    A dedicated shaped charge warhead with anti-armour optimized stand-off distance, time of initialization and ad hoc cumulative funnel can obtain a level of penetration sensibly greater than a weapon with a far heavier nominal warhead but designed for universal enagement of very different battlefield menaces.


    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15490
    Points : 16197
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Hermes missile

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:32 am

    Thanks Mindstorm for your informative posts... as usual.. Smile

    I believe the 5-6 calibres ratio is based on 1980s warheads with copper liners and less efficient standoff distances (ie fusing and probe shaped noses).

    Warheads need some space to form their plasma beams and have long probes to improve their performance... a good comparison would be Shturm and Ataka missiles, where the Shturm simple has a slightly pointed nose, while the Ataka has an extendible probe to set an optimimum standoff distance to improve penetration performance.

    Of course some people believe slat armour is effective against RPG fire because it increases the standoff detonation distance and reduces penetration, but in actual fact slat armour is effective against RPG rounds because RPG rounds have a fuse in their nose made of special crystals that generate an electric current when crushed (piezio electric crystals... spelling)... with slat armour there is a good chance the fuse will poke between the heavy metal slats and the nose fuse will not be crushed... and even if it is eventually crushed the front of the nose cone is crushed so the inner and outer cone is crushed.

    If you understand electric circuits you will know if the nose fuse acts as a battery generating current and the inner and outer nose shells carry that current to the rear of the warhead where the detonator is that crushing the inner and outer portions of the cone together is like crossing the wires from the battery and creating a short circuit, which duds the round.

    Sponsored content

    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 5:05 am


      Current date/time is Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:05 am