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    "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

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    Cyberspec
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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:31 pm

    TR1 wrote:If you are implying the rumors that Hermes was used in Ukraine, I am sorry to disappoint.

    There is nothing credible whatsoever to indicate it has been used. Damn thing has not even been made yet.

    Tarasenko claims it's been tested over there and had a pic of remains of a very Pantsir like missile on his blog

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Zivo on Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:38 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:
    TR1 wrote:If you are implying the rumors that Hermes was used in Ukraine, I am sorry to disappoint.

    There is nothing credible whatsoever to indicate it has been used. Damn thing has not even been made yet.

    Tarasenko claims it's been tested over there and had a pic of remains of a very Pantsir like missile on his blog

    It's probably BS. The image of the booster, assuming it's even from Ukraine, is likely from a Pantsir. Fortunately, Russia deployed a few of them to Novorussia.

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:48 am

    The terminal guidance could become quite cost intensive with adoption of IIR/MMW guidance.

    The Morfei is supposed to have an IIR seeker with lock on after launch capability and a datalink... wouldn't be that hard to get it to transmit what it sees back to the launch aircraft and let the gunner select the target... especially for the 20km range model.

    Keep in mind that there is already a drone version of Pantsir... which might be very useful for target practise for a Pantsir battery, but it would also be useful to find and mark targets for a Hermes battery too.

    Also with the booster... they are not that much different from the boosters used on Tunguska... in fact there is a family of standard boosters that are used for radio sounding rockets that look very similar to the boosters used by the whole SA-19 and SA-22 family of missiles. They are likely related if not actually the same.


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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:58 am

    Here is says hermes use a combination of inertial guidance with terminal Semi-active lazer guidance and "Optronics".

    http://www.deagel.com/Anti-Armor-Weapons-and-Missiles/Hermes-A_a001878002.aspx



    Description: The Hermes is a modular, supersonic, bi-caliber, multi-purpose guided missile designed by Tula-based KBP for use by airborne, ground-based and sea-based platforms. The Hermes missile system consists of an expendable booster stage and the primary missile system, also known as sustainer, carrying a powerful high explosive (HE) fragmentation warhead. The spectrum of targets that can be engaged at day/night using the Hermes weapon system includes: armored vehicles, facilities, fortifications and low-speed air targets such as helicopters. The Hermes is sealed inside tube/canister which acts as the missile launcher.
    The Hermes-A is a long-range anti-armor/anti-low-speed aircraft missile designed for both rotary- and fixed-wing aircraft such as Ka-52 and Su-39 respectively. The missile is guided through the target area by the inertial navigation system (INS). Terminal guidance is provided by a semi-active laser seeker with the optronic system providing the target designation typically mounted on the aircraft. The Hermes-A has a maximum firing range of between 15 to 20 kilometers flying at an average speed of 500 mps. The missile's diameters are 170mm (booster) and 130mm (sustainer). The sustainer is carrying at least a 28 kg HE fragmentation warhead which can defeat existing and future main battle tanks. Two Hermes-A missiles can be fired against two different targets simultaneously. The missile also features improved resistance against countermeasures compared to existing anti-tank missiles.


    Optronics could mean optoelectronics.. if thats the case.. could be Sensors Optical devices integrated in the missile to compare target with an image .or it could work scanning electric signals.

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:59 am

    Here is says hermes use a combination of inertial guidance with terminal Semi-active lazer guidance and "Optronics".

    The makers (KBP) describe the guidance as command guidance/inertial in the boost stage and homing in the terminal phase.

    Optronics is generally considered optical electronics that can include IR, Visible light (ie TV), and UV sensitive optical systems.

    Morfei is reported to be able to scan the target in IR and compare it with 3D IR models in its memory to ID target types.

    Brimstone is supposed to be able to do the same thing but with MMW radar frequencies.


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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Zivo on Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:03 pm

    I wonder if there's any plans on making a lightweight ground based carrier  for the 20km Hermes-A. Israel has some designs based on the spike NLOS.

    The VDV would probably take interest in something like that.

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:21 am

    Zivo wrote:I wonder if there's any plans on making a lightweight ground based carrier  for the 20km Hermes-A. Israel has some designs based on the spike NLOS.

    The VDV would probably take interest in something like that.

    There's a pic of something like that in the first page of this thread.

    Looks a lot like a Pantsir vehicle actually, crossed with an MLRS.

    I wonder if the Hermes would be compatible with existing Pantsir installations or such launchers can be made compatible with only a modest upgrade.
    I seem to remember the Pantsirs as being specified to be able to use their missiles against ground-targets too if neccessary, although they didn't have the Hermes in mind. But electronically speaking, the capability should already be there.

    The Pantsirs could get a new role then. Ground-Air ass-kickers santa

    Those medium-range Pantsir vehicles with the extra tubes (forgot the name) look especially ripe for the role.

    Since the VDV's getting the Pantsir; they will be able to field the Hermes too.
    And of course I would assume that for the army, the Pantsirs will be mounted on Armata and Typhoon truck chassis, with perhaps a lightened version for the Kurganets and Bumerang chassis.

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:59 am

    That 40 tube version looked a lot like Grad, but with a sensor radar thing that looked a lot like the system on the drawings reportedly showing Morfei...


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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  r111 on Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:07 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    Zivo wrote:They're using the same terminal stage, and added a larger booster stage.

    What I don't understand, is that there's going to be an overlap in capability with other MLRS systems. What's the point in having multiple systems that do the same thing? HERMES-A is one hell of an ATGM, but compared to other MLRS, it's nothing special. Perhaps it would make a good export.


    Russia don't have lazer guided precision Artillery at 100km range.. the closest thing is
    Krasnopol with 30km range ,fired from artillery.  Their smerch rocket artillery have a 90km
    range ,but not sure about how its precision missiles works.. using drones or heat seeking..
    fire and forget ? i think those are.. things that you have not complete full control of where you want it to hit exactly in the end ,the target is chosen in the end by the onboard sensors ,so less control .  Perhaps Hermes is more ideal against heavy armored tanks ,while smerch is more ideal against enemy soldiers ,enemy artillery or light armored targets without active defenses. That is precision area attacks. while Hermes is more ideal for highly armored targets..

    MLRS were used, with _most_ spectacular results and accuracy, in UA conflict last summer.  Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjHpBeQnj3Y
    Apocalypse-now-type-of-stuff. 18+

    Books will be written about that conflict one day. First truly massive use of $300 drones for recon & fire control.

    In war where neither side has control of the air, artillery/MLRS rule supreme.  Any gathering of troops, outposts can be hit with devastating accuracy from many kms away. If you lucky, u will see the 1-2 aiming rounds and have common sense to hit the deck/run.

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  George1 on Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:15 pm

    Some Hermes missile info in KBP page, although its only for "A" version

    http://www.kbptula.ru/en/kbp-instrument-design-bureau/150-english/en-production/multi-service-weapon-systems

    Performance specifications

    Maximum firing range, day/night ..... 15-20 km

    Guidance system
    Cruising trajectory stage ............... inertial or radio-command
    Terminal stage ............................ homing
    Guided missiles load .................... up to 16 pcs.


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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Project Canada on Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:22 pm

    Is Hermes the future replacement for Ataka and Khrizantema?

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:26 am

    Yes and no.

    I suspect they will continue to use Ataka, Krisantema and Vikhr because they are relatively small, light and cheap yet effective and can be carried by a range of platforms from light to heavy in fairly large numbers.

    However for long range use against very heavy targets the Hermes will be very useful.

    So very simply if the target is 16km away and is a MBT then Hermes would be the weapon you launch, but if the target is a sniper in a room 5km away then Ataka or Krisantema or Vikhr would do the job much cheaper...

    Being lighter and being able to be carried in greater numbers favours the Ataka, Krisantema and Vikhr... with most platforms able to carry these weapons in clusters of 6-8 per pylon.

    The Hermes will likely be 4 weapons per pylon at most and for smaller lighter aircraft likely a twin or single tube per pylon.

    Obviously if the target is very well defended and heavily protected then Hermes offers a 30kg warhead and excellent stand off launch range.


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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:29 am

    I think Ataka will mainly be carried by Ka-52 and the land version maybe we see it in future IFV/BMPT


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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:48 am

    Ataka is an evolution of Shturm... the original AT-6 Spiral.

    The current evolution of that missile is the Krisantema which has dual guidance and longer range and rather better armour penetration performance than Ataka.

    Ataka is currently the standard ATGM of the Mi-28N and late model Hinds and has been seen on the Ka-52 on an unusual three lots of twin tubes on one pylon mounting.

    With Vikhrs in production I think the Ka-52s will have the option of Atakas, Krisantema, and Vikhr with the future option of Hermes, while the Mi-28N and M models will likely use Atakas and Krisantemas and in the future get Hermes. I suspect the Hinds will continue to use Atakas and Krisantema.

    I suspect production will focus on Krisantema and stocks of Ataka will just get used up and it will only remain in production for export.

    Vikhr is a very cheap missile to produce, as will be the Krisantema while the Hermes will be the big heavy capable missile that is carried when needed.

    I rather suspect they have enormous numbers of Atakas and even perhaps some Shturm missiles which based on the performance of Konkurs should be perfectly effective for a wide range of targets for the forseeable future... while stocks last.

    I suspect the Krisantema and the Vikhr will remain in production as the cheap numbers missiles for a range of platforms (Krisantema for Mi-28N/M and Hind and Ka-52, Vikhr for Ka-52 and Su-25, as cheap but effective enough weapons and Hermes as the future heavy air to ground ATGM weapon for pretty much all anti armour aircraft including unmanned and ground based....)

    With the unification of the missiles with Pantsir-S is interesting... the Hermes is terminally guided while the Pantsir-S is command guided... I would suspect both could be used against both ground and air targets... if the threat is from the ground then a 40 tube HERMES launcher would be a potent defence but if the threat is UAVs then that 40 tube launcher could be loaded with cheap command guided missiles controlled by a nearby Pantsir-S system.

    Instead of an air defence unit to support other units it could be an air and ground defence unit... multipurpose...


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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Austin on Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:29 am

    What is the status of Hermes program , Is it being funded ?

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Zivo on Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:25 pm

    I haven't heard anything recently regarding its status.

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:43 pm

    Austin wrote:What is the status of Hermes program , Is it being funded ?
    I take it your asking in regards to that crap bitchfest from keypub forums with user Scar, right?

    Hermes exist but seems sidelined for whatever reason Since it is a true multipurpose weapon, hopefully will see light soon. As TR1 posted a photo from the video showing Hermes in factory.

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Werewolf on Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:22 pm

    Since Spherenox mentioned a discussion on keypub about ATGM's, i read a little bit... well what can i say i am not even surprised by so many nonsense talk and hurt feelings of some individuals taking everything personal if they are not right with their uneducated assumptions. So many funny misconceptions about Fire and Forget weapons, helicopters purposes and what not. Kind of funny to read, but my fingers itch. Smile

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  max steel on Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:08 am

    I'm following that bitchfest too. Very Happy

    Can you enlighten me what is with Longbow Radar in helos ? Is it some sort of silver spoon to avoid Helos from threats ?

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Zivo on Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:53 am

    max steel wrote:I'm following that bitchfest too. Very Happy

    Can you enlighten me what is with Longbow Radar in helos ? Is it some sort of silver spoon to avoid Helos from threats ?

    There was some discussion not too far back, I think it's in the last few pages of the Ka-52 thread.

    Anyways, longbow is the mast mounted radar on the Ah-64. In theory, it allows it the hide behind a treeline and look over top for tanks and whatnot, without exposing the gunship itself. The Soviets had really good SHORAD; shilka, Tunguska, etc. Conventional strafing or circling like you see in Iraq and Syria, would have be suicide on the battlefield the Ah-64 was designed to fight on.

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:35 am

    max steel wrote:I'm following that bitchfest too. Very Happy

    Can you enlighten me what is with Longbow Radar in helos ? Is it some sort of silver spoon to avoid Helos from threats ?

    No. It allows the helicopters to spot the enemy from a ways away and allows the helicopter to track a target and use the Hellfire AGM-114L to a designated target. Problem is, it has 8km range and a shorad such as pantsir or latest variants of Strela-10 would be able to also detect it within range. Pantsir and Tunguska would see it even farther away and be able to take the helicopter down from that far. While it is a good system, it doesn't actually protect the helicopter from the enemy at such distances if the enemy has a half decent shorad. While Vikhr can operate at same range as hellfire or even greater (10km), it still falls within same ranges of the shorads. Now the issue is that the person thinks that the helicopter can fire and just flee. But I don't believe that is entirely true as it may need to still gain the info from the longbow radar (someone please correct me). And against the targets in question, both Ataka, AGM-114 and Vikhr works perfect, with the Vikhr and Ataka costing not nearly as much as the expensive AGM-114. But they require the helicopter to be tracking the targets with its laser system. Mind you, the helicopters such as Mi-28nm and Ka-52 carry radar so theoretically I imagine they could use 9M123 and operate similar. I am also not sure of this though.

    The whole discussion was really sad. This Scar guy was getting extremely defensive and didn't provide any actual information to back up his claims but was quick to call others people claims drivel but not actually properly argue it or explain in detail.

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:53 am

    Hermes is supposed to be related to the Pantsir-S missile and will be ground, air, and sea based with a precision delivered payload of about 30kgs... it should be rather potent.

    It would be interesting in the sense that the Pantsir-S is inertially guided and then command guided for the terminal phase but these missiles are inertially guided and then terminally guided.

    One would suspect they could still be used against an aircraft, so that means any nearby Hermes artillery batteries could be used to support a Pantsir-S battery against a heavy air attack... perhaps with laser homing or MMW radar or IIR seekers in a fire and forget mode.


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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:44 pm

    The point is that no one there is entirely correct. At some points they are correct but the deeper the discussion goes the more they show halftruths, lot of myths and missconceptions aswell not a single person there even understands or appears to have not read any manuals of any army how they are operating and the factual reality of engagement procedures and ranges. Maximum weapons range is all fine and dendy, but Apaches could not even come above 5km maximum Hellfire range in a plain, desert with almost no cover for iraqi tanks and they still had an average engagement range of 3.2km. Now imagine the very same scenario in a urban/rural battlefield in europe. Helicopters would enter effective and lethal zones of even the weakest 14.5mm KPVT machineguns and militaries tend to have something bigger for everything that flies where it shouldn't.

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:34 pm

    Werewolf wrote:The point is that no one there is entirely correct. At some points they are correct but the deeper the discussion goes the more they show halftruths, lot of myths and missconceptions aswell not a single person there even understands or appears to have not read any manuals of any army how they are operating and the factual reality of engagement procedures and ranges. Maximum weapons range is all fine and dendy, but Apaches could not even come above 5km maximum Hellfire range in a plain, desert with almost no cover for iraqi tanks and they still had an average engagement range of 3.2km. Now imagine the very same scenario in a urban/rural battlefield in europe. Helicopters would enter effective and lethal zones of even the weakest 14.5mm KPVT machineguns and militaries tend to have something bigger for everything that flies where it shouldn't.

    Especially important point, considering that the Apache's cockpit glass isn't even rated to defeat 7.62x39mm/AKM fire let alone 14.5x114mm, 23x115mm or even 30x165mm caliber rounds fired from a Tunguska/Panstir.

    Also I don't know why people keep talking about the ability for helicopters to hide behind tree-lines as being touted as some kind of major advantage, when SHORAD can hide behind tree-lines even easier than helicopter could, and with the additional advantage of electro-magnetic spectrum camouflage. What's also interesting is that Russia has developed and putting in to service ground surveillance radars capable of differentiation of objects needing only 5 cm of separation, which are also capable of differentiation between blades of grass and vegetation, trees, animals, human figures....so recognizing an helicopters blades would be child's play for those radars.

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    Re: "Hermes" multi-purpose guided missile:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:16 pm

    I remember chatting to a guy in the 1990s who was a tank commander and he said the thermal imagers they had then and the fire control systems meant that during exercise he could easily see helicopters hovering behind trees just by the heat signature and exposed rotor blades. He said the army he was in didn't have dedicated anti helo rounds but an APFSDS round would completely penetrate any tree or group of trees like a white hot knife through butter and smash a helo out of the sky behind.

    A Russian tank commander in a T-90M could of course lase the tree and then add 10 metres and fire above the tree with a standard HE FRAG round fitted with an ANIET fuse and set the round to explode directly above the helicopter... with devastating results...


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