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    Libyan Crisis

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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:52 am

    There is no need to integrate them. Tor has its own search radar and tracking radar and missiles in one vehicle. For self defence there no need of more.

    Well there is really.

    You can't just take a TOR battery and sit them on the deck of a carrier and expect them to operate normally... there will be issues with parts of the ships structure causing blind spots and of course the radars of the TOR vehicles effecting and being effected by the ships various radar and ESM and ECM equipment and navigation systems too.

    The Russians have developed a small deck mounted system with vertically mounted ready to fire missiles and a tracking radar... sitting those on the deck tied down with cables so you can remove them if you like... connect them to the local power so they are always ready and don't need to run generators to be ready, and also connect them to the information feed of the main ships search radar which should offer better performance than any system mounted on a vehicle, so the deck mounted systems just need to point their tracking radars in the suitable direction and scan for targets and then launch a missile which the tracking radar directs to impact.

    Having four of these deck mounted trailers would allow most directions to be covered at one time and you could have half a dozen extra mounts that are cheaper and have no radar at all... they just contain 12 or 24 ready to launch missiles to be guided by one of the deck mounted trailers with a tracking radar.

    There will be lots of places on deck where you wont be using at any time and if you need that space undo the cable and roll it out of the way... if it is quiet take it below deck and push it into a corner... or attach a towing vehicle and put it on a landing boat and deliver it to shore to operate with a TOR battery on land to defend forces during the landing...

    This system made of manpad is totally useless. I would fear in danger if this was the only air defence system protecting my ship.

    Old TOR is a capable system with a 12km range and decent accuracy able to take out enemy weapons in flight as well as aircraft... the new model has smaller faster longer ranged missiles that can be carried in double the numbers with all the weapons ready to fire in vertical launch tubes able to fly off in any direction needed... they are an excellent system... the new ones can reach 20km range and 15km altitude.

    Keep in mind that this is a helicopter carrier so it will be operating with a few destroyers and perhaps cruisers so it wont be fighting the enemy on its own... even the Ka-52 attack helo it carries has an AESA radar and can use R-77 AAMs if needed.

    Would like to see Turkey sending all their nastiest terrorists from Idlib and elsewhere to fight and hopefully die in Libya, it would be the best result all round... they can just send the terrorists and leave the Turkish soldiers offshore in a standoff support role...
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:27 am

    Old TOR is a capable system with a 12km range and decent accuracy able to take out enemy weapons in flight as well as aircraft...

    I was talking about the US system which uses manpads.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:42 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    ahmedfire wrote:
    Dima wrote:I'm amazed at peoples reaction here and on Twitter regarding Turkey's involvement in Libya. Why are people even bothered about Turkey sending men and material to Libya. Turkey sending more "men" to Libya is good news for Syria.

    I hope Russia is motivating Turkey even more, so that all the terrorists inside Syria is shipped back to Libya. It will help in faster liberation and cleansing Syria of NATO Jihadis.

    Remember that, the Syrian situation went worse after NATO Jihadis started arriving from Libya to Syria once their "main work" was over in Libya.

    No , if turkey controlled libya , they will have more resources "money and men" to fund the terrorists in syria .

    Egypt should make sure Turkey fails to achieve its objectives by arming, equipping and training Haftar's forces. Geography is on Egypt's side: You have a border with Libya while Turkey does not.

    Right and egypt was working on that file since years , before couple of years ,Haftar had no army ,only some hundreds with no plan  ,Egypt started to train them in the army colledges in egypt and supplying them with hardware and logistics and intelligence ,making deals with UAE and KSA for some fundings .

    Libyan army now has planners ,check the yesterday operation to free sirte city ,it was well planned and organized , the LNA marine soldiers went through the cost and make a sudden attack in parallel with the land attack from the army units .

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    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:07 pm

    More easy turkish targets   Smile

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    Post  ahmedfire on Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:19 pm

    Russians are here

    welcome

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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:51 pm

    I was talking about the US system which uses manpads.

    Yes, I know, though a vehicle mounted MANPADS system is actually a step up from a guy out there with a missile on his shoulder squinting to find targets... most vehicle or ship mounted MANPADS have optics and can use information from the ships search radar to direct them to incoming threats... but as I was saying... TOR is a couple of levels above a MANPADS in every way in terms of range and speed and performance and probably actually cheaper per missile too as it has no seeker required... it is just a command guided weapon... the tracking radar it uses is rather expensive though and is a full 3D set...
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    Post  ahmedfire on Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:17 pm

    Erdogan :Turkey has deployed 35 military personnel to Libya but they will not take part in any fighting.

    Source

    Did he requested a paliament approval for only 35 military personnel ?! Very Happy
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:27 pm


    Yes, I know, though a vehicle mounted MANPADS system is actually a step up from a guy out there with a missile on his shoulder squinting to find targets... most vehicle or ship mounted MANPADS have optics and can use information from the ships search radar to direct them to incoming threats... but as I was saying... TOR is a couple of levels above a MANPADS in every way in terms of range and speed and performance and probably actually cheaper per missile too as it has no seeker required... it is just a command guided weapon... the tracking radar it uses is rather expensive though and is a full 3D set...

    Trying to hit an antiship missile with a manpad is beyond stupidity even if it is connected to the ship. Tor even if not connected to the ship will do better. Mistral is a huge ship and needs self defence capability specially that egyptian navy has only the FREMM as a good AD ship. Prices of both tor and US Avenger are pathetic compare to loosing a Mistral ship.


    ahmedfire wrote:Erdogan :Turkey has deployed 35 military personnel to Libya but they will not take part in any fighting.

    Source

    Did he requested a paliament approval for only 35 military personnel ?! Very Happy

    What do you expect them to send ? They have neither the air force neither the navy neither the transport capacity to sustain an operation far away. It's all talk. LNA and its few mig 23 is also bombing the available airports for turkish intervention.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:20 am

    Trying to hit an antiship missile with a manpad is beyond stupidity even if it is connected to the ship. Tor even if not connected to the ship will do better.

    Actually you might be surprised...

    Original Igla was tested against AT-3 missiles and out of 9 missiles fired 5 got hits, which is pretty good considering Malyutka is a small target and with no proximity fuses the Igla was relying on a direct hit or graze to explode.

    They wanted to use MANPADS against cruise missiles, which are not really that different from western subsonic anti ship missiles... so the result of testing was the Igla-S which added a proximity fuse, which Verba is fitted with too, so they are fine for engaging anti ship missiles and cruise missiles as well as drones and other aircraft types.

    As you say however... MANPADS are a recipe where the main ingredient is light enough for one man to carry which seriously limits its max range and warhead size... weapons like TOR would be much better performers against all targets and after you paid for the tracking radars which are expensive, the missiles themselves are relatively cheap simple command guided weapons.

    Prices of both tor and US Avenger are pathetic compare to loosing a Mistral ship.


    Indeed it seems senseless to save a little money by defending it on the cheap and risk losing it to these days terrorist level weapons potentially.

    No point trying to get S-400 on there... but even little side extensions along the deck where you can drop a loaded pod with 12 TOR missiles that are plug in and play ready to fire... they wont be on the deck in the way and if you need them you will be glad to have a lot.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:35 am

    What do you expect them to send ? They have neither the air force neither the navy neither the transport capacity to sustain an operation far away. It's all talk. LNA and its few mig 23 is also bombing the available airports for turkish intervention.

    He did a lot of talk , but i was sure he will do nothing , he went to tunisia and algeria to use their lands but they refused.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:51 am


    The Mistrals in French service each have two Simbad missile turrets each armed with two Mistral heat-seeking missiles with performance similar to the Igla-S and the Stinger used in the Avenger .

    Of course there is a difference , the machine gun of Avenger cannot be used against small boats but simply mounting similar machine-guns around the Mistral like the French do , i guess Phalanx or AK-630 would be enough .
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:48 am

    Original Igla was tested against AT-3 missiles and out of 9 missiles fired 5 got hits, which is pretty good considering Malyutka is a small target and with no proximity fuses the Igla was relying on a direct hit or graze to explode.

    That's what ? 60% Pk. And during test. Imagine the same but in bad weather (not a storm but just a little rain that falls on the seaker) and it drops to 20%.

    That suck for a ship protection system.

    Even paying 20$ for such system is too much since it won't work.

    Tor is exensive but it does the job. They also have cheaper tunguska or directly buy the Kashtan which is a monster CIWS for less than half of the tor cost and I'm pretty sure their mistral is designed to have the kashtan as it was for russian navy.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:59 am

    Another turkish drone

    Bayraktar TB2

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:36 am

    That's what ? 60% Pk. And during test. Imagine the same but in bad weather (not a storm but just a little rain that falls on the seaker) and it drops to 20%.

    My understanding was that they filled the warhead section with an auto flare launcher, and flew the missile no more than a few metres above the ground... they wanted to test the performance of the Igla against very small targets like cruise missiles and drones.

    The problem they established that prevented more kills was that Igla has an impact fuse so it actually has to hit the target to destroy it.

    Any way you look at it the AT-3 ATGM is a small target... it is not particularly fast but flying very low to the ground it is a difficult target for any missile to intercept, but 5 times out of 9 shots they got direct hits... which sounds pretty damn good to me.

    To be clear they were testing it against a target it was never designed to be used against... a bit like trying to use Patriot missiles against upgraded Scuds... I believe the PK in that case was zero... requiring a completely new missile design.

    In this case the Igla-S has minor improvements in a couple of areas but the main improvement is a proximity fuse for very small targets.

    That suck for a ship protection system.

    The PK rate for British SAMs against Exocet missiles was rather worse and they were designed from the outset for that job... and the British have the Exocet in service so no excuses for not knowing how it works.

    Even paying 20$ for such system is too much since it won't work.

    They wouldn't use them if they didn't work.

    Tor is exensive but it does the job. They also have cheaper tunguska or directly buy the Kashtan which is a monster CIWS for less than half of the tor cost and I'm pretty sure their mistral is designed to have the kashtan as it was for russian navy.

    It is not a secret that TOR was fitted to all their cruisers and their aircraft carrier... as well as many other ships they operated.

    Kashtan is being replaced by new models of Pantsir with 6 barrel gatling guns...

    Another turkish drone

    Any other platform and getting shot down is a failure, but with a drone it means you made the right choice in what to send...
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    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:46 am

    Any other platform and getting shot down is a failure, but with a drone it means you made the right choice in what to send...

    Shotting down a drone which costs some million $ is a success .

    Turkish UAVs suffer high attrition in Libya
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:54 am

    Sorry... I am a big soft western wuss... I don't like to see people killed when aircraft crash or are shot down... well except John McCain of course...

    Even in the presence of irony I don't really like the idea of people dying.... I mean Iran starts launching ballistic missiles at neighbouring countries... the first thing I would probably do is get on a plane out of there... and the people going on a Ukrainian airliner probably felt good to be getting out of the danger zone... till their plane crashed.

    We hear a lot of shit about Ukraine and nazis and all that stuff, and they have not rebelled against their government even after some Russian speaking ukrainians got burned to death in a building there and they didn't demand justice, but I don't believe in Karma... there are too many bad people who are wealthy and as happy as they could be, and most of the poor down and out people I know would lend me money if I asked for it... (I don't).

    Of course for the air defence people shooting down drones is a good thing and not easy either... ask the Saudis.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:18 am

    GarryB wrote:Sorry... I am a big soft western wuss... I don't like to see people killed when aircraft crash or are shot down... well except John McCain of course...

    Even in the presence of irony I don't really like the idea of people dying.... I mean Iran starts launching ballistic missiles at neighbouring countries... the first thing I would probably do is get on a plane out of there... and the people going on a Ukrainian airliner probably felt good to be getting out of the danger zone... till their plane crashed.

    We hear a lot of shit about Ukraine and nazis and all that stuff, and they have not rebelled against their government even after some Russian speaking ukrainians got burned to death in a building there and they didn't demand justice, but I don't believe in Karma... there are too many bad people who are wealthy and as happy as they could be, and most of the poor down and out people I know would lend me money if I asked for it... (I don't).

    Of course for the air defence people shooting down drones is a good thing and not easy either... ask the Saudis.

    Agreed
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:Sorry... I am a big soft western wuss... I don't like to see people killed when aircraft crash or are shot down... well except John McCain of course...

    Even in the presence of irony I don't really like the idea of people dying.... I mean Iran starts launching ballistic missiles at neighbouring countries... the first thing I would probably do is get on a plane out of there... and the people going on a Ukrainian airliner probably felt good to be getting out of the danger zone... till their plane crashed.

    We hear a lot of shit about Ukraine and nazis and all that stuff, and they have not rebelled against their government even after some Russian speaking ukrainians got burned to death in a building there and they didn't demand justice, but I don't believe in Karma... there are too many bad people who are wealthy and as happy as they could be, and most of the poor down and out people I know would lend me money if I asked for it... (I don't).

    Of course for the air defence people shooting down drones is a good thing and not easy either... ask the Saudis.

    x3
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:38 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Russia should find a way to slither out of this one silently

    I think Russia should create conditions for Turkey to bleed as much as possible in Libya.

    On the one hand, they should encourage Erdogan to send both the Syrian jihadis and the Turkish army to go to Libya, on the other hand they should supply Haftar's army with all the weapons it needs via Egypt (with money coming from the Saudis of course).

    Russia needs good relations with the Turks

    But it can't afford to give them ground in Syria because the country is de-facto a Russian ally.

    So instead it should give them ground in Libya, or rather, give up its own ground there. I think Egypt and Haftar's existing allies can handle things without Russia anyway.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:17 pm

    Any way you look at it the AT-3 ATGM is a small target... it is not particularly fast but flying very low to the ground it is a difficult target for any missile to intercept, but 5 times out of 9 shots they got direct hits... which sounds pretty damn good to me.

    Yeah but in tests you can destroy the at-3 with a 9mm gun controled by a radar. That doesn't mean it will be a good system.

    Moreover russian tests their AD against real threat rather than "target drones" which are easier targets than the one they are imitating like the US.

    They wouldn't use them if they didn't work.

    From your own answer: British used a system that sucks against exocet and lost ships. US used patriot against something not design for and lost men.

    If a Turkish sub launches 4 harpoons against that Mistral, they will go through for sure.

    Did they at least ever test those US manpads against cruise missiles ?
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    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:40 pm

    In the middle a captured turkish vehicle by LNA , on both sides LNA using the egyptian vehicle Terrier lt-79


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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:03 am

    Yeah but in tests you can destroy the at-3 with a 9mm gun controled by a radar. That doesn't mean it will be a good system.

    The Igla was never intended to shoot down ATGMs, and would not normally be in a position to do so, but the fact that it can makes it a rather impressive system and the upgrade to solve the problem found in the test means the Igla-S and later Verba are both now much better at dealing with drones and other small targets.

    I am not suggesting that Russian tanks should now be fitted with Verba or Igla-S to shoot down Javelins... whose lofted flight profile and very slow speed would make them horribly vulnerable to being shot down by these missiles, but it suggests this upgrade makes these weapons vastly more capable against a much wider range of targets... which is a good thing.

    With long range SAMs they also took the time to make sure they were able to engage ARMs and BMs of all types which has turned out to be a very valuable bit of foresight.

    With these proximity fuses it makes the weapons vastly more capable in a much wider range of roles and makes the Gibka ship and vehicle mount much more capable without adding any cost at all.

    Moreover russian tests their AD against real threat rather than "target drones" which are easier targets than the one they are imitating like the US.

    Yeah, I think you are confusing American... for profit companies... trying to make their product look good for the military observers, with the Russian military itself testing its current operational systems to explore what range of targets it can be used against. They used the AT-3 because it is used as a target missile, it is cheap, but it is also very small with fairly small IR signature and can be flown very low altitude with a manual flight control that can be tricky to follow... it is actually a problem for an ATGM but for a drone it makes it a more difficult target. Adding a flare launcher to the front section where the warhead would normally go suggests they wanted to make this a difficult target... how many drones do you know of that release decoy flares?

    They didn't post the results on RT and they don't put it in the sales information for the Igla-S or Verba... you have to dig to find this information because it was proper testing rather than a sales and marketing gimmick that you seem to believe it is.

    From your own answer: British used a system that sucks against exocet and lost ships. US used patriot against something not design for and lost men.

    Patriot was not designed to be used against Scuds, but it was supposed to be used against cruise missiles and it failed in Saudi Arabia too.


    If a Turkish sub launches 4 harpoons against that Mistral, they will go through for sure.

    Why do you think that?

    Look on paper and the radar of the Mistral should detect a Harpoon at quite a distance and with two Gibka mounts it would be able to launch at two incoming missiles as soon as they get in range and then are immediately able to acquire the second pair and fire with reasonable chances of kills.

    I would agree that an enemy wanting to sink a Mistral could easily overwhelm its defences because it is French and designed to be protected by other ships... like British and the US Navies think. For the Russian Navy, they think of aircraft carriers as being there to support the ships they are with so for instance the Kuznetsov has 192 naval TOR missiles to protect it... and with the new model TOR you can load twice as many missiles into the same space with smaller lighter faster and longer ranged more accurate missiles, so 384 odd missiles ready to fire just by replacing the launch tubes... in fact the naval system uses a rotary launcher so replacing it with the four round packs of the land based system you could probably fit rather more missiles in a cheaper simpler launcher system with no moving parts except the launch hatch.

    If the Mistral was a Russian design it would likely have been fitted with TOR and Kashtan at the very least.

    It is not.

    Did they at least ever test those US manpads against cruise missiles ?

    Well the Americans fit them on ships like that too don't they? So I would hope they have... I don't know whether Stinger in the latest models have a proximity fuse or not... if they do they should be fine... but no matter what the armament is there will be a level of attack it cannot deal with.... the point is that with TOR and the like the number is very high which makes the attack expensive and much more obvious and vulnerable to counter attack...

    Sorry we should stop this discussion as it is a bit off topic... I think we both agree that Mistral could do with better armament... in terms of design of course it comes down to... the more defence capability you put on there the less space and money left for what it is supposed to be doing. Having a full air defence system might mean you lose 2-4 helicopters because there is no longer space for them, and this is a helicopter carrier... helicopters are its point. Of course you don't want a warship a Somali pirate in a speed boat armed with a PKM and an RPG can take over your helicopter carrier either... pirat
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    Post  ahmedfire on Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:31 pm

    It's all about money

    Turkey pursues $2.7 billion compensation for Gaddafi-era Libya contracts

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    Post  Isos on Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:45 pm

    If the Mistral was a Russian design it would likely have been fitted with TOR and Kashtan at the very least.

    It is not.

    Actually this one was meant for russia and they asked for room for their own weapons probably ak630 or kashtan because french design had space only for manpads which was not enough for russian MoD.

    Egypt should be able to instal those system easily if the wiring was not removed by the french.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:33 am

    It is my understanding that most of the Russian stuff was removed but put back for the Egyptian order... otherwise they would not be looking at Ka-52 helicopters... of course some of the changes to the design for Russia couldn't really be undone like the strenghened hull for operating in water with ice and the higher hanger ceiling so Kamovs could be operated there, but it is my understanding most of the electronics and systems the Russians were going to put in themselves weren't actually fitted and were going to be fitted when they took ownership of the boats but that didn't happen.

    Of course with Egypt being a Russia friendly country a lot of the Russian systems to be fitted could still be sold to Egypt depending on what they want.

    It's all about money

    Are you surprised?

    It is the main reason the US dips its oar in everywhere... either money or security threat to Israel... (oil being money too).

    No US carriers involved in Rwanda...

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