Russia - Pakistan military deals

There are also rumors of pakistan wanting T90s

GarryB wrote:India wanted a South Korean system, so they should not have any problems with Pakistan buying this...

What India thinks is irrelevant. I'm glad that Russian products are finding new markets. Russia is already selling Mi-17 to Pakistan. I read Pakistan plans to buy T-90 and Su 35s as well. Hoping those deals go through as well.

Re the South Korean system, I think South Korea purchased the design from Russia, so ideally they should pay royalties to Russia.

Hindus & Muslims have been at each other's throat for a very long time & frankly it's not Russia's job to stop this conflict.

What India thinks is irrelevant. I'm glad that Russian products are finding new markets. Russia is already selling Mi-17 to Pakistan. I read Pakistan plans to buy T-90 and Su 35s as well. Hoping those deals go through as well.

India is an important Russian customer and there can be no doubt they will talk to India before signing any large deal with Pakistan... that is just customer respect.

India is an enormous Russian weapon customer, while Pakistan really is not, it is not worth risking enormous sales for a few token ones to Pakistan.

Keep in mind that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia financed the religious nutters in Afghanistan and probably the Caucasus in Russia during their periods of unrest... I would not be too keen on being best buddies.

Of course, that being said, they will buy weapons anyway... if Russia can make some money then why not... especially if they can expand into other areas of mutually beneficial trade too.

Re the South Korean system, I think South Korea purchased the design from Russia, so ideally they should pay royalties to Russia.

Just looking at the bare specs for the system it is not even as good as a 1984 era Tunguska... I mean two single barrel 30mm cannon firing 600rpm each with 300 ready to fire rounds each, and four MANPADS performance level missiles... a search radar, but no tracking radar because its missiles and guns are optically tracked... which would limit its performance in bad weather...

GarryB wrote:India is an important Russian customer and there can be no doubt they will talk to India before signing any large deal with Pakistan... that is just customer respect.

That's the last thing the Kremlin should do. The moment they ask India, the Indians will say NO. Meaning Russia will lose out on millions if not billions of dollars.

GarryB wrote:Keep in mind that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia financed the religious nutters in Afghanistan and probably the Caucasus in Russia during their periods of unrest... I would not be too keen on being best buddies.

They did that in the past, currently they are not supporting Islamic terrorism inside Russia. No reason why Russia shouldn't strike billions of dollars of deals with Pakistan & the Saudis. The Saudis are rich, Hindus are poor. Saudi Arabia can be a lucrative market for Russian arms export.

GarryB wrote:Of course, that being said, they will buy weapons anyway... if Russia can make some money then why not... especially if they can expand into other areas of mutually beneficial trade too.

Precisely. It is NOT for India to decide to whom Russia should sell weapons. Indian buys weapons from scumbags like US & Israel...sworn enemies of Russia. Only a thoroughly corrupt country like India would purchases weapons from US, Israel.

Russia doesn't ask for a quarter, shouldn't give one either. Muslims and Hindus are at war for several hundreds of years. It is not Russia's problem.

India already said, that Biho is better than Pantsir and Tunguska, so I don't see a problem for Russia to sell Pantsirs to Pakistan. India criticize Su-57 as bad plane, so there is no problem to sell Su-35 to Pakistan.

That's the last thing the Kremlin should do. The moment they ask India, the Indians will say NO. Meaning Russia will lose out on millions if not billions of dollars.

Is said talk to them about it, I didn't say ask for their permission.

If India truly objects to a Russian sale of Pantsir to Pakistan then if India decides to buy 200 batteries of the system then the production capacity would be tied up for the next ten years of so, which would delay any sales to other countries for a while.

Perhaps licence production of MiG-35s might distract Roscosmos from signing any other major deals in the region for a while and mass production of T-90s means sales to other customers will also be delayed too.

They did that in the past, currently they are not supporting Islamic terrorism inside Russia.

What makes you say that.... why do you think so many Russians have been caught out in Syria in the anti assad pro ISIS camps... did they pay for their flights there themselves? Who provided the literature and facilitated them and their countries going there in the first place.

Just the other day a few ISIS recruiters were killed I believe in Russia... just because the Russian security services are on top of the problem right now does not mean they are not adding fuel to a fire that is just embers at the moment but they are trying to get fresh fuel and are blowing on the embers to add oxygen in the hope something would flare up.

No reason why Russia shouldn't strike billions of dollars of deals with Pakistan & the Saudis.

Pakistan doesn't have enormous amounts of money, and while Saudi arabia does do you think the US would ignore then using that money to buy Russian weapons?

Saudis are rich, Hindus are poor. Saudi Arabia can be a lucrative market for Russian arms export.

It could be, but totally unreliable... the Saudis are pencilled in for over $400 billion dollars of US weapons... but how much will they actually end up buying?

They have bought influence without spending anything like what they promised... a rich mans dream.

It is NOT for India to decide to whom Russia should sell weapons. Indian buys weapons from scumbags like US & Israel...sworn enemies of Russia.

I am not suggesting India can control who Russia does or does not sell weapons to, but it is basic manners to talk to them about it and offer alternative options before signing any deals.

Only a thoroughly corrupt country like India would purchases weapons from US, Israel.

They probably thought they were buying influence and protection like Saudi Arabia has... but they have found they don't spend nearly enough on US weapons for that to influence the US government...

India already said, that Biho is better than Pantsir and Tunguska, so I don't see a problem for Russia to sell Pantsirs to Pakistan. India criticize Su-57 as bad plane, so there is no problem to sell Su-35 to Pakistan.

They are certainly getting first choice here, so I don't see how they could complain, but I doubt that will stop them... I mean a 10 billion dollar competition to find a new medium fighter would have ended up costing them well over 22 billion dollars and nothing was said... the order was quietly cancelled, but when the Russians modified a ship and sold them an aircraft carrier for less than 2.5 billion including air component they went ape shit about being ripped off.

They also think the Su-57 will cost too much even after buying 36 Rafale fighters for the prices they paid... mad.

Pakistan signs contracts for the purchase of Russian weapons

As reported by the RIA Novosti news agency, Russia and Pakistan have signed contracts for the supply of anti-tank systems, air defense systems and small arms to the Pakistani side, Chief of the General Staff of the Pakistani Army General Qamar Javed Bajwa said. Patrol ship "Dmitry Rogachev" project 22160 of the Russian Navy, arrived as part of a detachment of ships of the Black Sea Fleet in Karachi (Pakistan) to participate in the international naval exercises AMAN-2021, conducted under the leadership of the Pakistani Navy,

The general made such a statement on the sidelines of the AMAN-2021 international naval exercises, which ended in Pakistan on February 16, 2021. The Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation has not yet commented on this information.

The general called Russia "a good friend of Pakistan," with whom Islamabad, as a partner in the SCO, would like to develop relations not only in the military sphere.

The Chief of the General Staff recalled that in recent years Pakistan has acquired Mi-35 combat helicopters from Russia.
Earlier, Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan reported that the country is interested in acquiring weapons from Russia, and the Pakistani military is already in contact with Russian colleagues on this issue.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4258981.html

Russia and Pakistan signed a defense cooperation agreement in November 2014. At the moment, Moscow has supplied the Pakistani side with a batch of Mi-35M attack helicopters. Also in 2017, representatives of the Pakistani authorities announced their interest in buying Russian T-90 tanks, electronic equipment, and air defense systems.

Deputy Director of CAST on military-technical cooperation with Pakistan

February 21st, 21:54

Could we lose the Indian arms market to Pakistan? Why is Pakistan itself interesting to us as a buyer of our weapons systems? Konstantin Makienko, deputy director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) , one of the authors of the recently published book "Pakistan: Beyond Stereotypes" , told MK about this .


- Russia has been actively selling weapons to India for a long time. Not so long ago, a contract was signed for the supply of our S-400s to Delhi, which the United States tried in every way to prevent. And now we are actually starting to trade with our Indian adversary - Pakistan. Is there a conflict of interest here? If we trade with Pakistan, will we lose India?

- Moscow has always very closely followed the observance of Indian interests. At least as long as Russia remained India's preferred arms procurement partner. That is why, until 2014, Pakistan was completely absent from the list of states with which we have allowed military-technical cooperation.

As for India, it has always been an open country in terms of arms purchases and diversified arms imports. Earlier, back in the days of the USSR, she bought weapons not only from us, but also from France, Germany, Great Britain. But the USSR, and then Russia, was the first of equals. However, since 2008, India has clearly embarked on a course to expand arms purchases from the United States. It is the United States, not Russia, that has now become India's preferred MTC partner. We are very fond of talking about some kind of Russian-Indian "strategic partnership". This is self-deception. India's strategic partner is the United States, while Russia is perceived in India as a weakening and decrepit power, the apogee of its influence in the world remained in the distant past, and its relative power is steadily declining.

Over the past ten to thirteen years, Russia has suffered a series of painful failures in the Indian market. The Indians gave us a ride at several serious arms tenders. Instead of Mi-26 helicopters, they took the American military transport helicopters Chinook. Instead of combat Mi-28Ns, they bought American Apache. In a tender for fighters, the French Rafale won the MiG-35. The French, of course, won against other participants in the tender, but we are interested in the fact that our proposal with the MiG-35 lost.

India also bought American Hercules and C-17 medium military transport aircraft. But in fairness, I will note that in the segment of military transport aviation we had nothing to offer due to the complete degradation of the Ilyushin design bureau, which turned not just into a corpse, but into a mummified corpse.

- The question arises: did the Indians have such a choice exclusively related to politics, or was the technical side of the issue more important? Maybe our weapons were just worse than the American or French?

- It is clear that the American weapons are quite good. The same Apache is a very solid helicopter that took part in many military conflicts. However, the advantages of American weapons, however, as well as any Western ones, become less obvious when you consider their monstrous cost. In addition, the United States never transfers any more or less serious technology even to its closest allies. According to the criterion of efficiency and cost, Russian weapons are still out of competition.

- Plus, probably their expensive after-sales service?

- Very expensive! Their service is insanely expensive. When we are told that Russian after-sales service could be better, then I will say this: if the Indians are willing to pay us the same money for Russian service that they pay to the West, to the same Americans, then our service will also become very good.

As for India's priority purchases of American weapons, political factors still play a predominant role. At this time, since about 2008, the rapprochement between India and the US was actively taking place on an anti-Chinese basis. In general, Delhi and Washington had such a "honeymoon" in their relationship. The Indians then seriously hoped that the United States would offer them, for example, their nuclear submarines. It was very similar to what happened in our country in 1991, when everyone in Russia adored Americans. At that time we did not yet understand that the Americans did not recognize anyone as their equal partners. For them, only vassals exist, not partners.

- Need to understand, the "honeymoon" between the Indians and the Americans is over?

- Ends. Much more pragmatic relations are now developing there. But what is important to understand here? Yes, India is a sovereign country, it has the full legal right to buy weapons wherever it wants. But Russia is also a sovereign country. It also reserves the right to sell weapons to those countries that are ready and want to buy it.

- Does Pakistan want?

- Pakistan not only wants, it is very interested in the purchase of Russian weapons. In general, since the Afghan war, Pakistanis have been imbued with deep respect and somewhere even love for Russian, then Soviet, weapons. They saw and understood that Russian weapons in peacetime, perhaps, do not seem as “comfortable” or convenient as American ones. But during the war, this supposedly flaw is not fundamental. Already others are fundamental, specifically - fighting qualities. Whether you have an air conditioner or not, how many beds are in a cabin or cockpit is not so important anymore.

So, Pakistanis love Russian weapons and deeply respect them, because they felt all the advantages of it, as they say, on their own skin.

- When could they feel it? Are you talking about the Afghan war?

- Yes. They were then perfectly able to assess its effectiveness. Well, not themselves, but their mujahideen clients. And the Pakistanis, what can we hide now, obviously walked along the same paths. In short, they saw there how Soviet weapons worked in combat conditions. That is why they value him very much.

Besides, Pakistan is in a very difficult situation. In the sense that they now have a very limited range of sources for the purchase of weapons - these are China and partly Turkey. China is their strategic partner and ally. But Pakistanis are proud people, and they do not want such a strong one-sided dependence on China. And they have nowhere to diversify, since the Americans and Europeans do not sell weapons to them, and Turkey cannot yet cover Pakistani needs for the entire range of weapons. It turns out that Pakistan remains the only source of diversification - Russia. That is why Russia receives very large preferences on the Pakistani market. By the way, Russia's penetration into the Chinese-controlled Pakistani market will also be a signal to Beijing that their actions to discredit Russian weapons, which they have been actively taking lately, did not go unnoticed and did not remain without consequences. Russians also have something to say to potential buyers about the quality of Chinese crafts.

- What financial preferences does Russia get in Pakistan?

- Not only. There are closed tenders where one single participant is represented - Rosoboronexport.

- What kind of tender is it? Why then such formalities?

- According to the law, they apparently need to hold tenders. So they fulfill the law. Although it is carried out with one single participant. But by the way, Pakistanis know how to conclude such deals. Negotiations, which in other countries sometimes last for many months, or even years, take place in 2-3 months, after which they immediately purchase weapons.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4261520.html

Sanctions on Russia by the west have had the dramatic effect that now all Russian weapons are Russian and there are no strings that can be pulled by other states.

Pakistan does not have the sort of money to spend that India has or will do down the track, so in that sense I think Russia should still be careful and respectful with India.... no asking permission but keeping them aware of what is happening.

Saudi Arabia can fund purchases but at the end of the day the US is better able to limit Saudi support than Indian spending...

Those purchases India made are going to be a good learning experience I suspect... the Apache is a mature experienced platform, but it is also a hangar queen and expensive to operate... many US allies choose the cheaper Cobra instead... even the US Marines do...

Even the rockets and cannon shells are not cheap but the standard missile is expensive even now.

The C-17 was mind blowingly expensive and the C-130 and Chinooks were not cheap either... they gave all sorts of excuses and some were valid but none would pass the test of time...

The Havoc was largely untested, but experience in Syria and a few new upgrades and the Mi-28NM is an excellent attack helo whose command guided missiles would be rather cheap and there is a new generation of air to ground and air to air weaponry they are working on right now that will make them even more capable.

They already use the 30mm cannon shell in their BMPs, while the 30mm round the Apache fires is unique to the aircraft for India.

There were no Il-476s for sale when India bought C-17s, but I would think if they had waited a bit they might have gotten licence production rights to it and other aircraft.

The claim with the Chinook was that it would be cheaper to operate than the much larger Mi-26 and if they are idiots that would be very true.

The Mi-26 is a 20 ton payload capacity aircraft while the Chinook is a 10-12 ton capacity aircraft... if they fly both aircraft around with 10-12 ton payloads then of course the Chinook will be cheaper, but if they used their brains and used 20 ton payloads in the Mi-26s then one Mi-26 is going to be cheaper than the two trips the Chinook will have to make.

Most importantly for the price they paid for the 15 Chinooks they could have bought over 200 Mi-17s, which would have been much more useful...

But it was not about performance... like the MMRCA the result was decided at the start and goalposts changed to achieve that..

America is already telling them what they can or cannot buy in terms of weapons (S-400), and the price of their products and servicing will make them realise they are heading down the wrong path... if they wanted to be a countries bitch then they never should have kicked out the British and looked to the Soviets and Russia for weapons.

Isos wrote:He is totally right. They choosed to pay billions to US who no far long ago was their enemy so Russia has the right yo sell anything they want to Pakistan.

The moment Pakistan starts to procure weapons from Russia, U.S will impose CAATSA on Pakistan. Then there is China, which is going to lose big time in the Pakistani arms market.

Also, how is a bankrupt state like Pakistan going to fund all these imports from Russia? China and US won't fund it, obviously.

[quote="RTN"]

Isos wrote:
The moment Pakistan starts to procure weapons from Russia, U.S will impose CAATSA on Pakistan. Then there is China, which is going to lose big time in the Pakistani arms market.

Also, how is a bankrupt state like Pakistan going to fund all these imports from Russia? China and US won't fund it, obviously.

I don't see any real likelihood that Pakistan would do anything that would sour relations with China. Particularly when they rely on them for key systems like jf17 and for 60bn in investment for CPEC.

To put the importance of China to Pakistan in perspective, if you go to Islamabad... The US embassy is a small fortress. The Chinese embassy compound is the size of a small town.