Russia - Pakistan military deals

sepheronx wrote:until there is official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.

why would this deal happen of a strategic and balance shifting for India i fail to understand. This will cause both Russia and India to loose on many fronts

Pinto wrote:

sepheronx wrote:until there is official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.

why would this deal happen of a strategic and balance shifting for India i fail to understand. This will cause both Russia and India to loose on many fronts

What is funny, is that no one else in Russia are talking about it.

It seems to be either Pakistan, Indian or American news talking about it.  Even in the article it says it is way too early to tell.

The question will be, will Modi ask about it during his visit?

Su-35S is getting no foreign sales, and Knaapo maybe trying to gain some.  But we all know it will be curtailed, especially if India chooses PAK FA and Su-30MKI upgrades (actually, since PAK FA is KNAAPO project, they would lose significantly more in long run by short sale to Pakistan when sales to India would be significantly larger).

I have a feeling no one is even talking about it and it was a possibility but nothing more.  If it does happen, then well, Russia would have no one else to blame but themselves.  And I imagine with loss of sales afterwards, there would be political fallout in Russia.  I mean, Medvedev lost significant popularity at home after Libya ordeal.

Lets face it, it is all just talk. Russian's are not stupid people. that is clearly evident. They know that a $2 - 3B deal with Pakistan cannot outweigh potential $10+ B with India through KnaAPO (sale of Su-35S to pakiland vs PAK FA to India). As well, everyone knows it was butt kissing from Ryubakov or whatever his name is. Everyone knows that Russia has crap relations with Pakistan with almost no investments. Russia invests in Pakistan and Pakistan bought a total of a couple of helicopters. India has purchased significantly more and they know this.

I don't know what the purpose of this talk is. Is it to scare India? Is it funneling of money from knaapo to certain people? is it to promote Su-35S to other countries that have ties to Pakistan?

I don't know. But what I do know, it will end up like the Su-35S sales to China - none existent and wont happen. If it does, it is probably due to India turning away from Russia as it is. But us forumers know that Pakistan's $7B defense budget cannot even touch India's $40B a year budget. Not to mention India's ridiculous amount of purchases of weaponry.

http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/heres-why-india-vitally-interested-good-russia-relations/ri9800

So apparently Pakistan tried to purchase Su-27's in the past but failed. This will be no different. Pakistan wont be able to afford Su-35's. Way too expensive and too much of a political shitstorm.

As well, the author stated exactly what I said Ryubkov stated and what he meant.

Pinto wrote:

sepheronx wrote:until there is official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.

why would this deal happen of a strategic and balance shifting for India i fail to understand. This will cause both Russia and India to loose on many fronts

Pakistan gets Su-35
India gets PAK-FA
Russia gets money

Everybody happy

TheArmenian wrote:

Pinto wrote:

sepheronx wrote:until there is official word from Russian Rosobornexport (SP?) I will wait to see it to believe it if it ever comes to be.

why would this deal happen of a strategic and balance shifting for India i fail to understand. This will cause both Russia and India to loose on many fronts

Pakistan gets Su-35
India gets PAK-FA
Russia gets money

Everybody happy

Lol bro its not so easy, India will spent a billion if Pakistan spend million to stop this deal and this looks to be the motive of these unconfirmed leaks in media

People tend to forget that Pakistan is the biggest buyer of Chinese weapons, China will not sit still here.

OminousSpudd wrote:It'd be lovely if the Asian nations could put aside their plethora of disputes, even if it was just simply long enough to help Russia and its allies in putting the US beast to rest.

It seems it is too much to ask...

that's far too much to ask.. given that each nations have their own national interest.

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Well if Berkut and TR-1 got "insider"...so do i. Apparently yes.. Indonesia will really order Su-35S. Not in large number though. Delivery can commence as soon as 2016 with number of two aircrafts. In 2017 we may receiver additional six aircrafts and final four will be delivered in 2018. Bring total number of 12.

Annual payment for those planes would be in U$ with nominal of 200M/year. With total budget of 840M (Well actually it was 1B but..budget cuts)

"Moscow is in talks with with Islamabad about selling an unknown number of Su-35 fighters to Pakistan, a traditional enemy of Russia's ally India, reports China's Global Times.

Chinas Global Times? Why not wait for a more reliable source like the UKs Guardian, or Americas Washington Post...

Having said that it would not be something totally new... Russia has already sold inferior aircraft to China while selling the superior model to India when it wants it.

Selling Pakistan Su-35s... which India does not want, and selling India their PAK FA indian variant is normal business practice... India seems happy to buy from the west and from Russia... perhaps if India wants to sign an exclusivity contract with Russia and buy only Russian equipment then it can have the right to veto Russian arms sales... until then it seems that Russia is only offering other countries that are hostile to India products India has rejected.

point is if russia would be best at all weapons they would for sure sell all

victor1985 wrote:point is if russia would be best at all weapons they would for sure sell all

Perhaps but much more likely that no export would be A1 spec and there would be 'favourite' customers for A2 spec with the rest getting A3 etc. In that way even if A1 was the world's best 'lesser' countries might find Western stuff better or available as Russia does not have the production capacity that the West has, just look at the expected Lockheed F-35 volumes alone compared to Su plus MiG.

GarryB wrote:

"Moscow is in talks with with Islamabad about selling an unknown number of Su-35 fighters to Pakistan, a traditional enemy of Russia's ally India, reports China's Global Times.

Chinas Global Times? Why not wait for a more reliable source like the UKs Guardian, or Americas Washington Post...  

Having said that it would not be something totally new... Russia has already sold inferior aircraft to China while selling the superior model to India when it wants it.

Selling Pakistan Su-35s... which India does not want, and selling India their PAK FA indian variant is normal business practice... India seems happy to buy from the west and from Russia... perhaps if India wants to sign an exclusivity contract with Russia and buy only Russian equipment then it can have the right to veto Russian arms sales... until then it seems that Russia is only offering other countries that are hostile to India products India has rejected.

Hey i shared what i stumbled upon And to be honest this is first time literally i heard about this "Chinas Global Times".

GarryB wrote:Selling Pakistan Su-35s... which India does not want, and selling India their PAK FA indian variant is normal business practice... India seems happy to buy from the west and from Russia... perhaps if India wants to sign an exclusivity contract with Russia and buy only Russian equipment then it can have the right to veto Russian arms sales... until then it seems that Russia is only offering other countries that are hostile to India products India has rejected.

Kremlin should try to sell at least 2 squadrons of the Su 35 to Pakistan. Otherwise it doesn't make sense for either Russia or Pakistan economically or technically. If the Pakistanis purchase just 5 or 6 aircraft they won't have any advantage over India who already have a 100 Su 30s. Also, this might affect the sale of S-300 to Iran and PAKFA to India. So it makes sense for Russia to sell as many aircraft to Pakistan as possible provided they make the payment up front.

2 Squadrons wont even come close to the amount of sale in $ terms of Pak Fa to India (India wants over 100). So Su-35 sale will have to be in the 100's in order to be worth the sale. Any less and it is a hige potential loss.

sepheronx wrote:2 Squadrons wont even come close to the amount of sale in $ terms of Pak Fa to India (India wants over 100). So Su-35 sale will have to be in the 100's in order to be worth the sale. Any less and it is a hige potential loss.

Pakistan doesn't have a 100 aircraft of any type. Neither F 16s nor JF 17s. I am certain that they cannot afford 100 Su 35s primarily because the US won't allow its money to be used to purchase Russian aircraft. So Pakistan will have to fall back on the grants it gets from the Middle East.

It would be a good idea to sell PAKFA to Pakistan as well. In any case they are interested in purchasing a stealth fighter possibly from China.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1146104

Before China or USA can exploit this market(of stealth aircraft) Russia should seal a deal with Pakistan.

India will not mind because they are purchasing the same weapons from US(see Harpoon, C 130, Apaches) that the US is selling to Pakistan.This will also compel Iran to purchase Su 35s and PAKFA

After reading how India is backstabbing and going to US, even in military agreements, I say it is free for all. If India wont want Pak Fa's, guaranteed Pakistan will, and Russia may work out a deal with them. Same with selling the jets to other countries too like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, etc.

After this, I couldnt give a rats about India. They are trying to sit on two seats as Werewolf stated, begging to US, and really not being a good ally (lets not forget who supported India during troubled times and who supported Indias enemies).

So yeah, sell Su-35 to Pakistan.

sepheronx wrote:After reading how India is backstabbing and going to US, even in military agreements, I say it is free for all. If India wont want Pak Fa's, guaranteed Pakistan will, and Russia may work out a deal with them. Same with selling the jets to other countries too like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, etc.

After this, I couldnt give a rats about India. They are trying to sit on two seats as Werewolf stated, begging to US, and really not being a good ally (lets not forget who supported India during troubled times and who supported Indias enemies).

So yeah, sell Su-35 to Pakistan.

My impression is that you take this PAK FA and in general weapon sales on a bit emotional level. I believe that in geopolitics there is no love or hat only interests. And in any country there are groups of interest so politics is juts based on compromise between them. Why India bought US weapons we can only speculate but one is sure: greasing palms and warning of bad trade relations might be the reason. US interest is one: pull India out of BRICS and make sure there is bad atmosphere between Russia and India. There is also big leverage: market where India is exporting services... It is not Russian I am afraid.

That´s why IMHO Russia should really make sure relations with India good and prospects of trade growth is important as well.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

sepheronx wrote:After reading how India is backstabbing and going to US, even in military agreements, I say it is free for all. If India wont want Pak Fa's, guaranteed Pakistan will, and Russia may work out a deal with them. Same with selling the jets to other countries too like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, etc.

After this, I couldnt give a rats about India. They are trying to sit on two seats as Werewolf stated, begging to US, and really not being a good ally (lets not forget who supported India during troubled times and who supported Indias enemies).

So yeah, sell Su-35 to Pakistan.

My impression is that you take this PAK FA and in general weapon sales on a bit emotional level. I believe that in geopolitics there is no love or hat only interests. And in any country there are groups of interest so politics is juts based on compromise between them. Why India bought US weapons we can only speculate but one is sure: greasing palms and warning of bad trade relations might be the reason. US interest is one: pull India out of BRICS and make sure there is bad atmosphere between Russia and India. There is also big leverage: market where India is exporting services... It is not Russian I am afraid.

That´s why IMHO Russia should really make sure relations with India good and prospects of trade growth is important as well.

It isnt just sales. Look at the Russia and Indian cooperation thrwad as I posted the links.

As well, why should Russia bend over back for India? Russia shown far more support in the past and this is how India pays respect to friends? Nah. Screw them. If they want to be burned in the future because of their willigness to bend over and take it by the US, then so be it. Russia should sell to whomever they want to, and not worry about how another nation will "feel". What will Russia gain out of this? Nothing but loss of prestige and loss of trade. While India can buddy it up with US?

sepheronx wrote:

It isnt just sales. Look at the Russia and Indian cooperation thrwad as I posted the links.

As well, why should Russia bend over back for India? Russia shown far more support in the past and this is how India pays respect to friends? Nah. Screw them. If they want to be burned in the future because of their willigness to bend over and take it by the US, then so be it. Russia should sell to whomever they want to, and not worry about how another nation will "feel". What will Russia gain out of this? Nothing but loss of prestige and loss of trade. While India can buddy it up with US?

India pursues own interests same does Russia. In ordewer tro prevail BRICS policy must set course to ensuring  all participants´ interests shall coincide, that´s why Putin is so much pursuing all possibilities to make BRICS cooperation more appealing for all. I am sure Indian leadership is aware about intentions of US and how US is "loving"  allies but thy must also balance their economy growth as long as US is hegemonic. Nothing is forever though and US is not for long gonna stay on their position.

Conversation is utmost interesting but let´s continue on kinda Russia/business otherwise we both gonna be banned by Garry

india is right now under pressure and indoctrinated every day with capitalist myths.so call "prossperity and peace" talks is too much for them. myself i fell pressure from this kind of things and usa is presented as a peacekepper. guess lots of explanations needed for now. upon how putin's or better said russia's somethimes very violent actions because for those who truly like peace being violent put a question mark and raise the question "does the peace is keept with violence" here i can say i saw usa i dont know in face is violent but in backward is at least a action kind country

One of the problems for India will be that the Su-35 is designed to hunt stealth fighters like F-22 and F-35 so it might be effective in hunting the new stealth fighter India is developing with Russia.

Of course even if Russia sells Su-35s to Pakistan it will likely have mostly Su-30MKK components at best.

The politics of selling the Su-35 to countries is an important aspect that can be discussed here.... just keep in mind this is a thread about the Su-35, not about Indias problems with Russia or Pakistan.

Personally I am comfortable with Russia selling Hinds to Pakistan but not Su-35s.

I don't think Pakistan needs or should be spending money on such expensive aircraft... it should be getting its house in order and sorting its sht out before spending large on defence.

GarryB wrote:
Personally I am comfortable with Russia selling Hinds to Pakistan but not Su-35s.

I don't think Pakistan needs or should be spending money on such expensive aircraft... it should be getting its house in order and sorting its sht out before spending large on defence.

let them but dozens of Yak-135 light fighter price ration to Su-35s - 1:
4

Moscow, Islamabad Discuss Establishment of Helicopter Service Center

Head of Rostec's International Cooperation Department Viktor Kladov said that Moscow and Islamabad are holding negotiations on creating a Russian technical service center in Pakistan, which would maintain and repair helicopters.

DUBAI (Sputnik) — Russia and Pakistan are negotiating over the creation of a service center for helicopters in Pakistan, head of Rostec's International Cooperation Department Viktor Kladov said Sunday.

"There is a huge number of Russian helicopters in Pakistan. We are currently holding negotiations. It is about creating a technical service center, which would maintain and repair helicopters," Kladov said.

In March, Pakistani President Mamnoon Hussain announced Islamabad's intention to expand military-technical cooperation with Russia and purchase Russian helicopter gunships.

In August, a contract for four Mi-35M transport and attack helicopters was signed by Russia's state arms exporter Rosoboronexport and Pakistan's Ministry of Defense, according to a spokesperson for the Russian Embassy in Islamabad.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/world/20151108/1029779205/russia-pakistan-helicopter-servic-center.html#ixzz3qusWqLeg

Pakistan Seeks Joint Plane Engine Development With Russia

A Russian engine is being installed in Pakistan’s JF-17 Thunder fighter jet which inspires hope for cooperation between the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and the Russian engine maker, a PAC representative said on Monday.

“As we know, a Russian engine is being installed on the JF-17 Thunder and we are looking forward to further cooperation with the engine manufacturer in Russia,” the Pakistani official told RIA Novosti news agency on the sidelines of the 2015 Dubai Air Show on Monday.
The PAC representative expressed interest in having Pakistani engine specialists undergo training in Russia and their Russian colleagues helping modernize the company’s engine-repair facilities in Pakistan.

The JF-17 all-weather multirole fighter, jointly developed by Pakistan and China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation, is currently being modified with a Russian-made RD-93 engine.

Founded in 1971 by the Pakistan Air Force, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex is a major aerospace, defense, aviation contractor and military corporation producing aerial systems for both military and civilian usage.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/asia/20151112/1029973347/pakistan-russia-engines.html#ixzz3rNpa7ZVX

Source: the Russian Federation has completed the delivery of Mi-35M helicopters to Pakistan until the end of the year

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