Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Pinto
    Pinto

    Posts : 915
    Points : 970
    Join date : 2015-05-16
    Location : India

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Su-35s for Pak: Pie in the sky

    Post  Pinto on Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:29 pm

    https://in.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_than_fiction/2015/09/18/su-35s-for-pak-pie-in-the-sky_425933

    There are a number of reasons why the Russian ‘offer’ to sell the Sukhoi Su-35 jet fighter to Pakistan is headed for a crash landing.

    Is Russia planning to win friends in Pakistan and lose influence in India? If Russia sells the advanced Su-35 fighter aircraft to Pakistan, it is likely to lead to a major diplomatic rift with India. So why did Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov make the statement that Russia and Pakistan were “negotiating for the delivery of an unspecified number of Su-35 jets” to Islamabad?

    The best case scenario is that Russia is keen to ensure India’s return to its fold. As India enters into an increasing number of defence partnerships with Russia’s rivals, particularly Israel and the US, but also France and the UK, Moscow believes two can play the game. It is in this backdrop that Russia has entered into a defence cooperation agreement with Pakistan.

    Another reason could be that the judgement of some Kremlin players is clouded by the pressure of economic sanctions and they would like to grab a larger share of the global arms market in which Russia traditionally has been a leader. However, this possibility can be discounted as western sanctions have not had the intended impact. Despite an unfavourable geopolitical climate in 2010-14, Russia accounted for 27 per cent of the global arms market, with approximately $14 billion in exports. In fact, Rosoboronexport, Russia’s weapons export cartel, has orders exceeding $40 billion on its books.

    Russia’s offer to Pakistan could, therefore, be in the same category as the forever-on-hold S-300 sale to Iran. Moscow has attempted to squeeze diplomatic concessions from the US and Israel as payoff for withholding the air-defence system from Tehran.

    Likewise, the Russia-Pakistan talks over the Su-35 could be a ploy to get India fully on board the PAK-FA stealth fighter programme. The Indian Air Force (IAF) was originally committed to buy 200 of these fifth generation fighters but has since cut back the planned buys to 127. Now India wants to buy these jets directly off the production line from Russia rather than jointly develop the aircraft.

    Perhaps the Russians believe that Pakistan’s possession of the Su-35 could scare India to buy larger number of the PAK-FA. India may also be forced to purchase other advanced Russian weapons as sops for blocking the Sukhoi sale.

    What can the Su-35 do?

    With around 60 MiG-29s and a Su-30 fleet projected at 300, India currently enjoys an enormous advantage over Pakistan. While India would like to maintain this edge, the Su-35 will make a dent – albeit a slight one – in the IAF’s advantage. Although the much larger IAF, with its AWACS force multipliers, would easily tackle the Super Flanker, the presence of a brand new fighter – that is more powerful than anything in the IAF – could cause some anxiety among India’s war planners.

    According to Pakistani analyst and former PAF pilot Kaiser Tufail, the Su-35 being a twin-engine aircraft with an extremely long range, would help Pakistan “have a significant and potent presence in the Arabian Sea”.

    He adds: “These fighters would also allow unhindered patrolling by naval (long range maritime patrol aircraft), as well as providing top cover to our fleet at sea....Essentially, I see it as a guarantor of maritime security as far as the airspace is concerned.”

    To be sure, the Su-35 will be a game changer only if wielded in sufficient numbers and in sync with other air defence assets and missiles. But Pakistan is unlikely to order more than two squadrons of the Su-35 because of the expenses of operating a heavy fighter. The Super Flanker burns as much fuel per hour as an entire Karachi neighbourhood. Plus, twin engines would mean double the maintenance time of a single-engine F-16 in the PAF fleet.

    Diplomatic powwow

    How serious is the offer? Ryabkov is a junior minister in Russian cabinet. But making an offer to a financially insolvent client – that is also an exporter of terror – is one thing. Making it stick is a different ball game. Approval for the sale will have to go through several rungs of the Russian parliament Duma and the military, plus there are higher powers in Vladimir Putin’s inner circle who can overrule Ryabkov. So there’s every possibility that the Su-35 for Pakistan will end up being the equivalent of the S-300 for Iran.

    However, in the highly unlikely scenario that the Su-35 wears Pakistani colours, Russia can say goodbye to its largest buyer. Although Russia was the second largest arms exporter in the world during the period 2010-14, it was less diversified than the US. According to SIPRI, “Three countries; India, China and Algeria; accounted for almost 60 per cent of total Russian exports.” India alone accounted for 39 per cent.

    In contrast, the US which led with 31 per cent, had Korea as its top buyer at just 9 per cent. The US therefore had a better spread than Russia.

    So without India, Russia’s arms exports will atrophy. And although the likes of Algeria, Indonesia and Malaysia continue to be steady buyers of Russian weapons, the flows to these countries are a trickle rather than a torrent. No country offers Russia such a long-term market as India.

    India was also the first international customer for the MiG 29, and in fact expressed interested in it during its development in the early 1980s. Again, the IAF was among the first air forces in the world to induct the Su-27/30. India’s early investment in the PAK-FA project is enough indication of its seriousness in the project.

    In the backdrop it seems unlikely Russia will go ahead with ramping defence ties with Pakistan beyond a few helicopter gunships.

    Stopping the Kozyrevs

    It was under Andrei Kozyrev’s watch that India diversified away from Russia. Kozyrev (Russian foreign minister from 1990 to 1996), who sought close ties with the West, had declared after the Soviet Union was dissolved that the new Russia would no longer give special importance to India and would in fact treat India and Pakistan as equals. So basically, the country that was indirectly responsible for the deaths of 15,000 Soviet lives during the Afghanistan War was preferred by him over friendly India.

    Deepa Ollapally of George Washington University writes in the paper ‘Indo-Russian Strategic Relations: New Choices and Constraints’, “Kozyrev relegated India to a secondary role. During this initial phase, which was to last until 1996, India was forced to take the initiative to try to build new bridges to the Duma and utilise earlier Soviet lobbies. India was able to exploit lobbies against Kozyrev's tilt which had formed in the Russian Federation presidential apparatus. It was aided by such figures such as Vladimir Lukin who called for greater attention to be paid to old allies.”

    “However, then Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao had no choice but to diversify India's security links as its most crucial erstwhile ally continued to labour in confusion and anxiety over its economic and political status, with no clear signal regarding its foreign policy preferences.”

    Kozyrev currently lives in Miami where he has acquired money and a nice tan. He slams Putin to the delight of his American backers. The thing India and Russia must do is sidestep or sideline such actors and keep the phone lines open. For, just as there are a few Indian leaders wanting closer ties with the West at Moscow’s expense, there are some Russian leaders who cannot see the importance of having India on their side.

    According to Ryabkov, increasing military cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow would not negatively impact Russia's ties with India. His statements would vindicate Rao’s decision to wean India away from over-dependence on Russia. Compared with Rao, current Prime Minister Narendra Modi belongs to the right leaning RSS, which is pro-American. He is unlikely to treat such an issue lightly.
    HIT AND RUN
    HIT AND RUN

    Posts : 2
    Points : 6
    Join date : 2016-09-28
    Location : Pakistan

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Su-35 for Pakistan Air force

    Post  HIT AND RUN on Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:35 am

    I just want to know that, Pakistan and Russia are in talks about the delivery of Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets and previously agreed upon delivery of Mi-35M helicopters, and also Mi-35M ‘Hind E’ combat helicopters was sent to Pakistan from Russia.

    In short, the PAF may seek up to six Su-35s for around $500 million U.S. Normally, Pakistan would engage in big-ticket arms purchases through the use of term financing or line of credits extended by the vendor. So, my question is it Pakistan would need to pay for its purchases of su-35 upfront with cold hard cash? Or, use of term financing or line of credits extended by the vendor Russia can be thinkable? russia thumbsup
    Vladimir79
    Vladimir79

    Posts : 2900
    Points : 3778
    Join date : 2009-07-10

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:40 am

    There are no such talks. PAF budget is currently tied up with JF-17 acquisitions and even getting financial aid from China is proving difficult to fund.
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 13141
    Points : 13624
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  George1 on Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:56 pm

    The first Pakistani Il-78MP arrived for repairs in Russia

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 207221

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2540135.html
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 13141
    Points : 13624
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  George1 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:14 pm

    Pakistan received all four ordered Mi-35M helicopters

    According to the Shephard Media resource in the publication Pakistan Receive Mi-35M Quartet, with reference to the Pakistan Export Promotion Organization (DEPO), Pakistan received all four Mi-35M helicopters ordered by Rostvertol.

    Recall that in August 2015, a report was published on the conclusion of Rosoboronexport JSC a contract for the supply of four Mi-35M helicopters to Pakistan.

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 3694488_original

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2816965.html
    avatar
    Nasr Hosein

    Posts : 8
    Points : 10
    Join date : 2017-09-13
    Location : Pakistan

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  Nasr Hosein on Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:15 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:There are no such talks.  PAF budget is currently tied up with JF-17 acquisitions and even getting financial aid from China is proving difficult to fund.

    Hello there friend,

    I would like to add to your comment regarding Pakistan Air Force's JF-17 Thunder program. It is correct that Pakistan Air Force solely concentrating on the Thunder Program as it is the country's first ever foray into Combat Aircraft design development and manufacturing. Prior to this PAC had only ventured in basic trainer i.e the MFI-17 Super Mushak aircraft and a joint venture in intermediate trainer jet, which is the K-8P Karakoram. This program holds a significant importance in Pakistan, as it symbolizes an independence and self-reliance for Pakistan Air Force who has for many decades depended on Western combat aircraft to fulfill its defense needs. It is true that the military budget is leaning heavily toward the development of JF-17 Thunders. As it stands today, Block-ll Thunders are well underway in being mass produced. PAC (Pakistan Aeronautical Complex) is at a crucial juncture for the Block-lll Thunder development. Speculations are rife with the possibility of various new tech incorporated into Block-llls. Such as AESA, IRST, HOBS, HMD and even an up-rated engine. So you can see why Pakistan Air Force wouldn't be shifting it's focus on other aircraft at present time. Even if it is J-10s or the Su-35s. Both of which are very capable in their own respect and a technological achievement by their respective country of origin.

    Having said that, there is no denying the fact that Pakistan Air Force has a definite requirement for Air-Superiority combat aircraft for it's fleet. But since there have been several new aircraft which have already joined Pakistan Air Force, with the likes of Erieye AEWs, ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagles, IL-76 Midas, Cn-295 Pursuaders, F-16 C/D Block-52 Fighting Falcons, as well as the Block-15 Fighting Falcon's MLU update. So you can clearly see that Pakistan Air Force has had a very busy few years in not only inducting new aircraft and capabilities into it's force structure. But more importantly, as with any air force, it has been busy integrating these new capabilities into it's combat doctrine, as well as streamlining it's base infrastructure to facilitate these new capabilities. Being a medium sized air force with a very specific role in the defense of the country. It is only natural for Pakistan Air Force to "pace" itself, while also concentrating on the further development of the Thunder Program. So it is not just about monetary requirements, but more so a concerted effort of an Air Force to effectively absorb new tech and capabilities. As it stands, Pakistan Air Force has a requirement of 250-300 JF-17 Thunders. Hence it's only natural to forecast that the it would not be for another 2-4 years before Pakistan Air Force starts it's search for an Air-Superiority combat aircraft.
    George1
    George1

    Posts : 13141
    Points : 13624
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  George1 on Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:23 pm

    George1
    George1

    Posts : 13141
    Points : 13624
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:32 am

    The transfer of four combat helicopters Mi-35M to the Army Aviation of Pakistan

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 6262307_original

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 6262895_original

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 6262560_original

    Recall that the contract for the supply of four Mi-35M helicopters to Pakistan was signed by Rosoboronexport JSC in August 2015. All four Mi-35M helicopters manufactured by Rostvertol were shipped to Pakistan as early as 2017.

    It was reported that at present, the Pakistani side is conducting pre-contract negotiations on the purchase of five more Mi-35M helicopters, and in total expresses its intention to acquire 20 such helicopters

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3441784.html
    jhelb
    jhelb

    Posts : 563
    Points : 652
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  jhelb on Fri May 03, 2019 1:29 pm

    This will be a really good deal for Russia russia russia russia

    Pakistan set to buy Pantsir . This is a multi-million dollar deal.

    https://sputniknews.com/asia/201905021074651468-pak-to-buy-russian-missiles/
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20650
    Points : 21204
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 04, 2019 3:12 am

    India wanted a South Korean system, so they should not have any problems with Pakistan buying this...
    avatar
    Tingsay

    Posts : 125
    Points : 129
    Join date : 2016-12-09

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  Tingsay on Sat May 04, 2019 8:07 am

    There are also rumors of pakistan wanting T90s
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 3265
    Points : 3263
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  Isos on Sat May 04, 2019 8:40 am

    GarryB wrote:India wanted a South Korean system, so they should not have any problems with Pakistan buying this...

    Yep they also want Rafales and israeli radars and US helicopters.

    With a brigade of pantsir at the border Indians won't go through the next time.
    jhelb
    jhelb

    Posts : 563
    Points : 652
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  jhelb on Sat May 04, 2019 10:41 am

    GarryB wrote:India wanted a South Korean system, so they should not have any problems with Pakistan buying this...

    What India thinks is irrelevant. I'm glad that Russian products are finding new markets. Russia is already selling Mi-17 to Pakistan. I read Pakistan plans to buy T-90 and Su 35s as well. Hoping those deals go through as well.

    Re the South Korean system, I think South Korea purchased the design from Russia, so ideally they should pay royalties to Russia.

    Hindus & Muslims have been at each other's throat for a very long time & frankly it's not Russia's job to stop this conflict.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20650
    Points : 21204
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 04, 2019 2:26 pm

    What India thinks is irrelevant. I'm glad that Russian products are finding new markets. Russia is already selling Mi-17 to Pakistan. I read Pakistan plans to buy T-90 and Su 35s as well. Hoping those deals go through as well.

    India is an important Russian customer and there can be no doubt they will talk to India before signing any large deal with Pakistan... that is just customer respect.

    India is an enormous Russian weapon customer, while Pakistan really is not, it is not worth risking enormous sales for a few token ones to Pakistan.

    Keep in mind that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia financed the religious nutters in Afghanistan and probably the Caucasus in Russia during their periods of unrest... I would not be too keen on being best buddies.

    Of course, that being said, they will buy weapons anyway... if Russia can make some money then why not... especially if they can expand into other areas of mutually beneficial trade too.

    Re the South Korean system, I think South Korea purchased the design from Russia, so ideally they should pay royalties to Russia.

    Just looking at the bare specs for the system it is not even as good as a 1984 era Tunguska... I mean two single barrel 30mm cannon firing 600rpm each with 300 ready to fire rounds each, and four MANPADS performance level missiles... a search radar, but no tracking radar because its missiles and guns are optically tracked... which would limit its performance in bad weather...
    jhelb
    jhelb

    Posts : 563
    Points : 652
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  jhelb on Sat May 04, 2019 4:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:India is an important Russian customer and there can be no doubt they will talk to India before signing any large deal with Pakistan... that is just customer respect.

    That's the last thing the Kremlin should do. The moment they ask India, the Indians will say NO. Meaning Russia will lose out on millions if not billions of dollars.


    GarryB wrote:Keep in mind that Pakistan and Saudi Arabia financed the religious nutters in Afghanistan and probably the Caucasus in Russia during their periods of unrest... I would not be too keen on being best buddies.

    They did that in the past, currently they are not supporting Islamic terrorism inside Russia. No reason why Russia shouldn't strike billions of dollars of deals with Pakistan & the Saudis. The Saudis are rich, Hindus are poor. Saudi Arabia can be a lucrative market for Russian arms export.

    GarryB wrote:Of course, that being said, they will buy weapons anyway... if Russia can make some money then why not... especially if they can expand into other areas of mutually beneficial trade too.

    Precisely. It is NOT for India to decide to whom Russia should sell weapons. Indian buys weapons from scumbags like US & Israel...sworn enemies of Russia. Only a thoroughly corrupt country like India would purchases weapons from US, Israel.

    Russia doesn't ask for a quarter, shouldn't give one either. Muslims and Hindus are at war for several hundreds of years. It is not Russia's problem.
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3507
    Points : 3591
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  medo on Sat May 04, 2019 8:16 pm

    India already said, that Biho is better than Pantsir and Tunguska, so I don't see a problem for Russia to sell Pantsirs to Pakistan. India criticize Su-57 as bad plane, so there is no problem to sell Su-35 to Pakistan.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 20650
    Points : 21204
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 05, 2019 4:36 am

    That's the last thing the Kremlin should do. The moment they ask India, the Indians will say NO. Meaning Russia will lose out on millions if not billions of dollars.

    Is said talk to them about it, I didn't say ask for their permission.

    If India truly objects to a Russian sale of Pantsir to Pakistan then if India decides to buy 200 batteries of the system then the production capacity would be tied up for the next ten years of so, which would delay any sales to other countries for a while.

    Perhaps licence production of MiG-35s might distract Roscosmos from signing any other major deals in the region for a while and mass production of T-90s means sales to other customers will also be delayed too.


    They did that in the past, currently they are not supporting Islamic terrorism inside Russia.

    What makes you say that.... why do you think so many Russians have been caught out in Syria in the anti assad pro ISIS camps... did they pay for their flights there themselves? Who provided the literature and facilitated them and their countries going there in the first place.

    Just the other day a few ISIS recruiters were killed I believe in Russia... just because the Russian security services are on top of the problem right now does not mean they are not adding fuel to a fire that is just embers at the moment but they are trying to get fresh fuel and are blowing on the embers to add oxygen in the hope something would flare up.

    No reason why Russia shouldn't strike billions of dollars of deals with Pakistan & the Saudis.

    Pakistan doesn't have enormous amounts of money, and while Saudi arabia does do you think the US would ignore then using that money to buy Russian weapons?

    Saudis are rich, Hindus are poor. Saudi Arabia can be a lucrative market for Russian arms export.

    It could be, but totally unreliable... the Saudis are pencilled in for over $400 billion dollars of US weapons... but how much will they actually end up buying?

    They have bought influence without spending anything like what they promised... a rich mans dream.

    It is NOT for India to decide to whom Russia should sell weapons. Indian buys weapons from scumbags like US & Israel...sworn enemies of Russia.

    I am not suggesting India can control who Russia does or does not sell weapons to, but it is basic manners to talk to them about it and offer alternative options before signing any deals.

    Only a thoroughly corrupt country like India would purchases weapons from US, Israel.

    They probably thought they were buying influence and protection like Saudi Arabia has... but they have found they don't spend nearly enough on US weapons for that to influence the US government...

    India already said, that Biho is better than Pantsir and Tunguska, so I don't see a problem for Russia to sell Pantsirs to Pakistan. India criticize Su-57 as bad plane, so there is no problem to sell Su-35 to Pakistan.

    They are certainly getting first choice here, so I don't see how they could complain, but I doubt that will stop them... I mean a 10 billion dollar competition to find a new medium fighter would have ended up costing them well over 22 billion dollars and nothing was said... the order was quietly cancelled, but when the Russians modified a ship and sold them an aircraft carrier for less than 2.5 billion including air component they went ape shit about being ripped off.

    They also think the Su-57 will cost too much even after buying 36 Rafale fighters for the prices they paid... mad.

    Sponsored content

    Russia - Pakistan military deals - Page 3 Empty Re: Russia - Pakistan military deals

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat May 25, 2019 12:16 pm