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    UFOs & Extraterrestrial Life

    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:14 pm

    A civilization advanced enough to travel freely between stars would see no reason to visit the Earth. If it wanted to learn about us, it could scan our planet from mlns of kms away without us knowing that we're being observed. On top of that, norhing about the Earth (among milions of other planets an advanced civilization would be aware of) makes it particularily interesting.

    PS Strangely explosion of UFO claims happened exactly at the time when B-class sci fi movies became popular. A coincidence?
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:49 pm


    Why did humans go to moon? They could find out by probe or telescope. Moon looked boring. But humans had to go. In person. To touch the moon with own hands. To see with own eyes. Why go to Mars? Send cosmonauts? Probes there already. Must touch Mars. Must walk on Mars.

    Difficult to say, which came first. The experience or the explanation. This goes back in history. Many thousands of years. Curiosity is a very strong motive. It killed the cat. Did you ever take a new route home? Just to see what was around corner? Knowing in advance, probably nothing special. Or was there...........
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:41 pm

    Red dwarf stars & some binary or triple star systems r a lot older than yellow dwarfs like the Sun, with more advanced older civilizations that had a chance to evolve there. They could find a way to travel faster than the speed of light & spread out well beyond 100 light years from Earth, not necessarily even to bother coming anywhere close to here.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:58 am

    That is a good point, their choice of travel through space might preclude or bypass normal travel as we know it so they might be going from one point in space to another point of space on either side of us and never see us because they don't actually pass by us.

    The acquisition of knowledge is something we have... we study mould and mildew and other basic things without any need to conquer them or dominate them. We might study them to understand them better so they are less of a problem for us.

    Hell there might even be a faction of the alien civilisation that hates high tech and wants a more simple and polluted life that we have and are here with us now trying to sabotage progress in newer cleaner energy technologies. Maybe it is not the oil companies after all...
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:01 pm


    https://youtu.be/i93Z7zljQ7I

    @Tsavo lion

    Agree. Older stars could have more advanced civilizations. Possibly too advanced to use our technology. Or bother too much with us. The reason I used example of yellow stars, is because they have greatest probability of having Earth like planets with similar civilizations, that evolved during similar timescales. It took 4.5 billion years for sun and Earth and human civilization to reach this level. So if evolution on near yellow star differs by only one percent in time scale, then this is a period of 45 million years. Do civilizations last that long? But it amounts to the same problem. No signal detected.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:38 pm

    We could have missed it already, it depends on how long they transmitted a signal in our direction. Besides, if they r at or below our level, why advertise their presence to potential more advanced enemies that can come there before they can come to them? And why bother waiting for decades or 100s of years for a 2 way communication? A Tibetan proverb is fitting here: "only true friends or bitter enemies will come from afar!"
    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:21 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:We could have missed it already, it depends on how long they transmitted a signal in our direction. Besides, if they r at or below our level, why advertise their presence to potential more advanced enemies that can come there before they can come to them?

    You said earlier that an Alien race came down to Earth and created humans, isn't it ?
    starman
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    Post  starman on Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:27 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Most planets with advanced civilizations r not Earth-like &/ near Sun-like stars.

    What evidence???

    Many of them could now be on planets that weren't originally theirs.

    True.


    Why should they try to colonize Earth with all its problems?

    Aliens don't appear to be coming to colonize but monitor Earth and influence its development.


    The Annunaki came from bigger Nibiru (see my prev. posts), created us....

    This is pseudoscience from the charlatan sitchin.

    There r Ks, if not Ms of other planets in our galaxy more suitable to life.

    More likely as suitable not more.


    Last edited by starman on Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:45 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling correction)
    starman
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    Post  starman on Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:34 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:A civilization advanced enough to travel freely between stars would see no reason to visit the Earth. If it wanted to learn about us, it could scan our planet from mlns of kms away without us knowing that we're being observed.

    In addition to the point nomadski made, I don't think the real mission of ET visitors is scientific investigation.

    On top of that, norhing about the Earth (among milions of other planets an advanced civilization would be aware of) makes it particularily interesting.

    "Interesting" or not, Earth harbors a fast advancing civilization the aliens would like to keep an eye on and influence, as explained in The Alien Plan for Earth.


    PS Strangely explosion of UFO claims happened exactly at the time when B-class sci fi movies became popular. A coincidence?

    Sci fi with saucers came after the start of the modern UFO era e.g. The Day the Earth stood still. Movies like that came in response to UFOlogy not vice versa.


    Last edited by starman on Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total
    starman
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    Post  starman on Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:39 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Red dwarf stars & some binary or triple star systems r a lot older than yellow dwarfs like the Sun, with more  advanced older civilizations that had a chance to evolve there.

    The sun is a G type star not a dwarf, and we can't be sure life is even possible on planets orbiting red dwarfs. In order to get adaquate heat, such planets probably incur tidal locking, which is hardly conducive to life.

    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:31 pm

    @ starman

    I think Tsavo lion may have a point about including older stars in the probable candidate for intelligent life. Since either a civilization is violent and short lived or peaceful and long lived. If short lived then we will probably not detect them. Since chance of coincidence of coexistence is low in small time quanta. But if long lived, then good chance. And this civilization will probably not depend on energy from their old star.

    Have question for you. In nearby stars to earth. Say 100 light year radius. How many stars have the closest age and size to Earth? Has SETI looked here?

    http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/131-observational-astronomy/seti-and-extraterrestrial-life/seti/797-why-doesn-t-seti-concentrate-its-observations-to-the-nearby-stars-and-the-solar-systems-that-we-are-discovering-beginner

    It looks as though, Earth like planets are common. And we know that on our Earth, life occupies every corner. And that humanoid bipedal life is the preferred form to develop intelligence. There existing several human species that could have become technological. Therefore it is safe to say, intelligent humanoid life is common in nearby stars. So the only reason for there being no contact, to my mind, is the short life span of these societies together with these evolutionary periods  not being coincident in time. That is why I asked, did nearby stars form at the same time as our sun ?

    I think that some here say with certainty that we have been visited. I say, that given the evidence, that some instances are probably of genuine visitations. By much more advanced beings, who remain hidden and are studying the planet. It makes sense why a more advanced civilization, may want to remain hidden. Since we have nothing of value to them for exchange. Nothing but trouble. And less advanced life is not exciting to us. We tend to kill them or eat them, here on Earth. So only an equal or near equal civilization can be practically of value to us.

    I also think that most alien civilizations are short lived. Given the example here on Earth. May be a life span of 1000 years. So we must target our search to stars that have a very close age to our own star.  Is it possible to predict accurately the age of star? To within a million years or even less? I think that is what we need.
    starman
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    Post  starman on Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:51 pm

    nomadski wrote:
    I think Tsavo lion may have a point about including older stars in the probable candidate for intelligent life.

    If by older you mean Population II it's possible but not likely given the low metallicity issue.

    Since either a civilization is violent and short lived or peaceful and long lived.

    I think inevitably a civilization will be violent, to some degree or other, but I don't think it'll be doomed by that.

    Has SETI looked here?

    First I don't think SETI is a great idea when legions of UFOs are swarming here under our noses. It's silly to assume another civilization--almost certainly older considering that ours is a mere beginner, a mere few thousand years old--will rely on familiar technology.


    And that humanoid bipedal life is the preferred form to develop intelligence.

    You can't be sure based on just our example but UFO/ET reports may lend weight to the idea.

     It makes sense why a more advanced civilization, may want to remain hidden. Since we have nothing of value to them for exchange. Nothing but trouble.

    I think ETs were at some earlier stage no better than us. You make mistakes; you learn from them.

    And less advanced life is not exciting to us. We tend to kill them or eat them, here on Earth. So only an equal or near equal civilization can be practically of value to us.

    Any alien life would be very exciting to us--look at the search for microbial life on Mars.

    I also think that most alien civilizations are short lived. Given the example here on Earth.

    Last I checked we haven't blown ourselves up. Smile Sure nuclear weapons and environmental degradation are serious concerns but I don't think they'll destroy civilization. Just obsolete forms of government which can't cope.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:18 am

    @ starman

    I was thinking about the excitement value of space research and travel. I think people will fund space research, if they feel excited by prospect of new major discoveries. And I think the threshold is increasing. I think we have all these science fiction films to blame. Do you think people will be excited by discovery of something like this on planet Mars ?

    https://youtu.be/xYIUFEQeh3g

    There is plenty like this on Earth. And most people don't want to know about them. I remember Clinton declaring discovery of fossil Bacteria in rock from Mars. There was no public panic. It did not turn into a new religion. Government did not collapse. In fact people quickly forgot about it. Unless we find an ET, that can play chess with us, I am afraid funding for space may be hard to get. Unless for mining and extraction from Moon or asteroids.


    https://youtu.be/ZNkmhY_ju8o
    Walther von Oldenburg
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:09 pm

    We have people like Neil deGrasse Tyson (Carl Sagan before him) acting as the public face of science to get people more interested in space stuff. Wink Sci FI also plays a role.

    Sadly NASA at it's founding played a political role mostly, it was all about getting to the moon before USSR, afterwards it's budget was slashed by 60%. No permanent base on the moon, no manned mission to Mars, no nexciting new propulsion systems. Maybe in a few years when private companies take over the simpler missions at low Earth orbit, it will leave more $$$ for more ambirious projects.
    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski on Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:57 pm

    I think space is too big and difficult for just one nation. Even wealthy and advanced ones. The European rockets keep blowing up. The Yanks are not much better. Or the Chinese. The ISS is a very successful venture. And is multinational. I remember the Russians suggested that Iranian astronauts could train and go to ISS.  But Yanks refused to share the same space as Iranians . But as you said private companies can set up joint ventures and share the costs also. New company like space X, is making great progress with new Buck Rogers rockets. Can Russia and Iran and China business also set up company? No politics. Just science. Iranian rockets are making advancements, but they need bigger engines. Heavier lift.


    https://youtu.be/hyraLxGHgzo

    It is all about money and jewels and card games and WMD in space now.!

    starman
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    Post  starman on Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:40 am

    nomadski wrote:@ starman
    I was thinking about the excitement value of space research and travel. I think people will fund space research, if they feel excited by prospect of new major discoveries.

    I'm afraid most people aren't like us; they aren't excited by intellectual stuff just personal gratification. The masses would much rather fund popular social programs of immediate personal benefit than space.


    There is plenty like this on Earth. And most people don't want to know about them. I remember Clinton declaring discovery of fossil Bacteria in rock from Mars. There was no public panic. It did not turn into a new religion. Government did not collapse. In fact people quickly forgot about it.

    They forgot about it in part because doubts were raised about it. Discovery of any life would excite intellectual people but only advanced life would have a major societal impact.

    starman
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    Post  starman on Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:42 am

    nomadski wrote:I think space is too big and difficult for just one nation. Even wealthy and advanced ones.

    Agreed. The ideal situation would be a united Earth, using the money currently spent on weapons on space instead.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:27 am

    Sadly logic has nothing to do with it... it is all about popularity and communication/sales.

    The US going to the moon was about hurt pride regarding not being the first to launch a satellite, and had very little to do with exploration, and everything about beating the Soviets at something.

    Science was a byproduct... I mean... lets face it... it was the nazis that got them to the moon.

    The facts of the matter are that technology developed for long range space flights and operating for years on other planets where resources are no where near as abundant as they are here on earth would be enormously valuable to the human species because the way we are consuming resources on this planet and also expanding in number then we are going to reach a point where fresh water has more value than gold or platinum or titanium.

    Sadly at the moment we seem to have no problem with food or air or water so people ignore what is happening and continue like there is no problem.

    If something breaks when I was a lad you fixed it... these days you throw it away and buy a new one... in fact if it is a cell phone you throw it away or stick it in a cupboard and buy the new model anyway because the new model is cool and shiny.
    starman
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    Post  starman on Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:51 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The US going to the moon was about hurt pride regarding not being the first to launch a satellite, and had very little to do with exploration, and everything about beating the Soviets at something.

    Science was a byproduct...

    Science may have been secondary to nationalistic goals but was/is still important. That's why there were samples collected and returned, from several areas whereas just being first could've been achieved with one mission and no samples.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:48 am

    Yeah, I am not suggesting it was all ego... but lets face it... the politicians could care less about the science... half of them are probably creationists anyway.

    Today it is not even national goals, it is income for the already super rich... the slogans are to spread peace and democracy, but really it is about oil and minerals and market share.... and not just about securing all that for the 1%, but also about denying the same to our major rivals and anyone who talks to them...

    The problem is that I don't see them even interested in doing what is right for Americans let alone humans as a collective group... they are selfish and childish and simply don't care about anyone but themselves.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:44 am

    jhelb wrote:You said earlier that an Alien race came down to Earth and created humans, isn't it ?
    Yes, but we could have missed signals of other aliens.
    This is pseudoscience from the charlatan sitchin.
    Did u read his books? How can u explain the fact that apes evolved so fast (compared to other animals) to become people ready to develop civilization of any kind & worship the Creator & other gods with warrior & alien qualities?

    NASA joins forces with alien hunters to search for life beyond our solar system in $100 million project that 'listens' for signs of advanced civilizations
    starman
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    Post  starman on Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:26 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Did u read his books?

    No but from what I can gather sitchin was full of it. "Niburu" for example orbiting the sun at a great distance yet the home of alien "annunaki." Any planet that far out would be frozen solid. Even Mars is near the outer limit of the solar ecosphere.

    How can u explain the fact that apes evolved so fast (compared to other animals)

    There have been many examples of rapid evolution or high turnover. This was true of hadrosaurs and ceratopsids for example. Many have limited stratigraphic ranges.

    to become people ready to develop civilization of any kind

    That took time. Homo sapiens neanderthalensis was quite intelligent but apparently not capable of building civilization.

    & worship the Creator & other gods with warrior & alien qualities?

    Early humans were hunters. It's not surprising their deities had warrior qualities.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:39 pm

    How can u explain the fact that apes evolved so fast (compared to other animals) to become people ready to develop civilization of any kind & worship the Creator & other gods with warrior & alien qualities?

    We are not apes, apes are our cousins... we have a common ancestor they think...

    Have a close up look at a real Gorilla or a real chimpanzee and tell me we are not related... proven by DNA that we are very very similar... and also proven by DNA to be different.

    Very simply a lot of animals today show social features... working together to make things easier... hunting in groups or packs... using tools to solve problems... simply solving problems... an octopus is a rather smart animal as an example and while it cannot build a factory to make jars with screw top lids it can mimic something that opens a jar to get food out of it.

    Religion throughout the ages has done more to kill and destroy than to unite and protect... primitive man wanted answers and shaman and priests offered answers... but their answers had no value. Religion didn't develop cars and aircraft, in fact most of the time religion tried to stop progress and innovation. It was also used to justify terrible crimes... it is easier to kill people of other faiths it seems... in fact for some religions it is seen as a duty...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:04 pm

    starman wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Did u read his books?
    No but from what I can gather sitchin was full of it. "Niburu" for example orbiting the sun at a great distance yet the home of alien "annunaki." Any planet that far out would be frozen solid. Even Mars is near the outer limit of the solar ecosphere.
    He doesn't have all the answers & may be wrong in some things, but his explanations about our origin make more sense to me than any others.
    How can u explain the fact that apes evolved so fast (compared to other animals)
    There have been many examples of rapid evolution or high turnover. This was true of hadrosaurs and ceratopsids for example. Many have limited stratigraphic ranges.[/quote]
    we don't have a complete picture, & still it took far less from leaving trees to the beginning of Sumer civilization.
    There r legends of benevolent beings coming down to early humans & teaching science, agriculture, metallurgy, & medicine. Domesticated corn & cattle shouldn't exist, unless they were genetically modified.
    starman
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    Post  starman on Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:02 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    He doesn't have all the answers & may be wrong in some things, but his explanations about our origin make more sense to me than any others.

    No, he was just a charlatan or, like von daniken, made the mistake of assuming those who wrote ancient texts had no imagination....


    we don't have a complete picture, & still it took far less from leaving trees to the beginning of Sumer civilization.

    In fact it took eons. Australopithecus afarensis (new name?) was already a ground dweller and lived at least a couple of million years before early civilization.

    There r legends of benevolent beings coming down to early humans & teaching science, agriculture, metallurgy, & medicine.

    But can't you see anyone can make up stories, and if advanced ETs were here, you'd think humanity would've had at least some advanced tech thousands of years ago. There is just no real evidence for advanced spacefarers and no need to attribute early advances to them.


    Domesticated corn & cattle shouldn't exist, unless they were genetically modified.

    Of course by humans, via artificial selection. Humans captured animals and killed those that they couldn't control. Those they could control were bred and each new generation had the wild ones and their genes eliminated. Of course they were also bred for egg, meat output.

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