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    Infantry Mobility Vehicles

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    GarryB
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:07 am


    Russia to buy 10 Italian armored vehicles
    Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov
    13:05 03/12/2010
    © RIA Novosti. Sergey Guneev

    Russia will buy 10 Lynx light multi-role armored vehicles (LMV) from Italy's Iveco, Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said on Friday.

    He said Russia would like to set up a joint venture to assemble LMVs in Russia after the purchase.

    Italian Defense Minister Ignazio La Russa confirmed the country's readiness to transfer production technology for LMV manufacturing in Russia and their subsequent sales to CIS states, Serdyukov's press secretary Irina Kovalchuk said.

    A Russian defense industry source said in August talks were underway on LMV assembly under license at the KamAZ automaker in Naberezhnye Chelny.

    In mid-March the Russian Defense Ministry dismissed media reports that it was planning to purchase up to 1,000 Iveco M65 LMVs.

    Italian LMVs have been used in Iraq, Afghanistan and other NATO missions abroad, where they have performed admirably.

    MOSCOW, December 3 (RIA Novosti)

    So they are actually buying 10 vehicles and the manufacturing capability to licence produce... and the right to sell to CIS countries so they might produce 2,000 but sell 800 to other CIS states.

    The production is going to KamAZ, which is an automaker. That is the truck maker right?

    A quick look at wiki says they make trucks and buses and the armoured vehicle they currently make is the BPM-97.

    (note BPM is not a mistake as its designation basically means armoured patrol vehicle, and not armoured troop transport vehicle like the BTR or MICV like BMP.)

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:31 am

    So a lay man question , between Tigr-M and Iveco M65 which is a better vehical in mobility,protection and cross country capability ?

    There must be some good reason why Russian have not opted for Tigr and opted for M65 , if engine is an issue then certainly Iveco is not coming with an Russian engine for sure.
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:54 am

    There is a lot of talk about the modular armour packages of the Iveco, so I think perhaps they want a modern light armoured wheeled vehicle that is proven on the front line against various threats.

    Whatever they actually licence build will most likely be optimised for Russian conditions, so either they were after a light armour production technology, or a specific form of modular design they see as useful.

    They have said clearly they are no copiers and when they find a technology they want they will buy that technology and the production techniques needed to produce that technology.

    This might be them buying a new type of light armour for all of their light vehicles or perhaps a modularity design that they can apply to their other vehicles.

    Russia is a huge country and I could see an enormous need for large numbers of well protected light vehicles for all sorts of government and military uses.

    As mentioned above they might actually export some of the vehicles they make to CIS countries... perhaps they will donate 1,000 to Kazakhstan to use as border security vehicles and use the armour technology on their own vehicles they produce in the new factories made to produce the M65s.

    BTW if it serves in the Russian military it had better have a Russian engine, or had better get one quick. That seems to be the only problem with the Tigr and has been sorted on the Tigr-M.
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    Vladimir79
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    So they are actually buying 10 vehicles and the manufacturing capability to licence produce... and the right to sell to CIS countries so they might produce 2,000 but sell 800 to other CIS states.

    The production is going to KamAZ, which is an automaker. That is the truck maker right?

    Italy said they are ready to transfer production. It did not say Russia accepted. So far all we have bought are 10 sample vehicles. If Iveco can't make the snow, it will have a short life here.
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:53 am

    If Iveco can't make the snow, it will have a short life here.

    I totally agree, but I think the Russian vehicle companies have enough experience to modify the basic design to allow it to handle deep snow/mud etc.

    This is not about buying a vehicle I think. This is about buying modern production technology and perhaps either a light armour technology and or modular design technology from Italy.

    Russian vehicles like the Tigr-M seem to be very good vehicles for their purpose but it is clear that the M65 has some good features too that the Russian military is interested in.

    The two they bought a while back were tested cross country etc so we can assume that the ten new vehicles they want to order might perhaps be for target practise to test their armour performance against various types of dangers... mines, IEDs, various calibres of small arms and HMGs and perhaps even light cannon and RPGs.

    Their armour is modular so they will need ten to test the various configurations of armour.

    If the armour performs well then buy the licence to produce it and you get the armour technology. If the modular design works out well then buy the licence to produce it and you get the modular technology. If the Tigr-M or other Russian product is better then you can just say thanks but no thanks confident that your soldiers already have a good vehicle.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:43 pm

    "Tiger" vs. "Lynx"
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  medo on Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:21 am

    Austin wrote:"Tiger" vs. "Lynx"

    Thank you for the link. Some points here are actually true. If Russian MoD need to import foreign vehicles, it would for sure be better to import German Dingo or Suisse Eagle, than Italian junk. After all Italian know how is how to build beautiful thing without any quality. Just look at Fiat car. I had one and it was a junk.

    Iveco LMV M65 is not an APC, but just an armored car and for that job Tiger, new Volk and after all Vystrel are not worst than M65, if not better. Buying 10 of them for testing and comparing with other vehicles is good, but buying 1000s of them, I don't think this is smart idea.
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:51 am

    As Vlad pointed out the Italians have said they are ready to sell and allow a transfer of technology for Russian production, but I hope the Russian military either accept it or not based on the safety of Russian military personnel and the improvement of the Russian military industrial complex rather than a political deal to curry favour with a NATO country.
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:06 am

    Found this vid:

    http://visualrian.com/images/item/357018

    (wont let me embed the vid so had to give link above).
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  medo on Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:12 am

    http://russiamil.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/popovkin-provides-more-details-on-armaments-program/

    Russian army will buy 2 Centauros and 2 Freccias for trials.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:01 am

    Some ballistic protection offered by Tigr/Tigr-M I found ( via artjomh/mp.net)

    All army Tigrs are 3rd protection class (protection up to 9 mm and 5.45 mm, but not against "enhanced penetration" 5.45)

    GAZ-233001 (baseline) - 3rd class
    GAZ-233014 (basic army Tigr) - 3rd class
    GAZ-233034 (basic police SPM-1) - 3rd class
    GAZ-233036 (uparmored police SPM-2) - 5th class (protection against up to 7.62 mm SVD rounds, regular ones)

    VPK-233114 (Tigr-M) is 6A protection class, but the vehicle is still in prototype stages, so it is unknown if 6A is the baseline, or the uparmored version. Class 6A protects against armor piercing 7.62mm rounds (SVD).

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:19 am

    Last I remember reading about the subject weren't they interested in the Volk, and the Tiger-M because the earlier model Tigers had US owned Canadian made Cummins diesel engines?

    The VPK-233114 Tigr-M and the VPK-3927 Volk both have Russian engines and other improvements.

    Of course both are larger and heavier than Iveco and the PVP... but with the Russian military... who knows... they might just buy them all.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:48 am

    I would suppose the Military would be more interested in having Russian engines while the production run of Police and Paramilitary organisation would be comfortable with Cummins engine because they must have ordered significant amount of Cummins engines with perhaps local assembly.

    Well if they sell to global customers they can atleast offer a choice between two proven and inservice engine , which is good for customers.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:06 am

    Here is a nice Video of Volk reco vehical , it has active suspension and is computer controlled Smile

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  medo on Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:29 am

    I think both Tiger-M and Volk are great vehicles. I wonder if Russian army will more use Volk as APC or as armored truck for battlefield logistics, for which it could be excellent. It could carry food, medics, ammo, etc to the place, where troops actually need them.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:45 am

    http://img819.imageshack.us/f/vpk3927family.jpg


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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:43 pm

    Photos:
    VPK-3927 Volk-1 Russia
    VPK-39272 Volk-2 Russia
    VPK-39273 Volk-3 Russia

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:05 am

    Looks like a good vehicle to me...
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  medo on Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:53 pm

    It seems Volk have the same modular design as Vodnik have. But I think it would be smart to built Volks intended only for logistic duties and separate Volks as armor vehicles for different duties and not to mix them. Logistic in battlefield is also very important and it needs its own vehicles and Volk is very suited for that.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Tue May 31, 2011 5:04 pm

    Original link http://en.rian.ru/images/16434/00/164340050.jpg


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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:04 am

    Armoured Car Scorpene

    http://army-news.ru/2011/06/novyj-broneavtomobil-skorpion%E2%80%93lta/
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:35 am

    I would suppose the Military would be more interested in having Russian engines while the production run of Police and Paramilitary organisation would be comfortable with Cummins engine because they must have ordered significant amount of Cummins engines with perhaps local assembly.

    Sorry, I wasn't clear... the Army doesn't want a US engine, but police and paramilitary might not care, but the fact is that after 8 8 08 the US company stopped cooperating with Russian companies so an American engined model is not likely unless the US company changes its mind... and even if it did would you go back to working with them under such conditions?

    Have read that the ceramic armour of the iveco vehicle is added to the chassis, while the Volk has a built in armour shell that is part of the structure. The Italian approach leaves potential weak spots not covered by armour though it is lighter.
    The Volk is also supposedly better cross country and the internal layout is reportedly better with the driver isolated from the crew in the italian vehicle.
    They also mentioned that access and seats were better in the Russian vehicle.

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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  Austin on Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:59 am

    GarryB wrote:Have read that the ceramic armour of the iveco vehicle is added to the chassis, while the Volk has a built in armour shell that is part of the structure. The Italian approach leaves potential weak spots not covered by armour though it is lighter.
    The Volk is also supposedly better cross country and the internal layout is reportedly better with the driver isolated from the crew in the italian vehicle.
    They also mentioned that access and seats were better in the Russian vehicle.

    Yes I did read it i am still wondering why they are ordering Iveco , they can straight away move to Tigr-M , perhaps Iveco is for paramilitary forces and to induce competition.
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    Re: Infantry Mobility Vehicles

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:35 pm

    Iveco seems to be an economic/political thing.

    In very many ways it was the backup to the Tigr.

    Another factor is that the company that will make the Iveco vehicles can try to sell them to CIS countries and paramilitary and police units so the scope for sales is good.

    AFAIK they have committed to making 10 so after that they can decide if mass production in its current form is worth while and if it isn't then it can certainly be modified to improve it in specific areas like cross country performance and performance in deep snow or mud.

    If it is different enough there might be a purpose in mass producing it especially if the retooled and upgraded factory doing the work has nothing else to make right now.

    It isn't a rubbish vehicle and has sold to several European countries already.
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    Kamaz refused to make IVECO armored vehicles

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:15 pm

    Kamaz refused to make IVECO armored vehicles

    Russian auto giant will not produce a Russian version of the Italian car "Lynx"

    The idea of ​​localizing the production in Russia of Italian LMV M65 armored vehicles under the brand name "Lynx" is close to failure. The head producer of cars, car manufacturer Kamaz, left the program. Experts believe that the decision is connected with foreign components, in which the plant has not and will not be licensed.

    Until the end of 2020 the Ministry of Defense must procure state armaments program for two thousand of these machines.

    On the decision to withdraw from the program of "Izvestia" talked to Kamaz.

    - We conducted a pilot assembly 10 of the Italian IVECO Vehicle, tested them and passed the Defense Ministry. Further participation in this program Kamaz not supposed to - told "Izvestia" on the plant.

    Key sites IVECO LMV M65 - non-Italian origin. Ceramic Armor - German, its foundation - the Dutch materials, engine - an American. IVECO could not transfer the rights to manufacture these units, because they do not belong, and to Americans in Russia there is no agreement on military-technical cooperation, - said, "Izvestia," a source in the military-industrial complex.

    Head of Centre ACT Ruslan Pukhov believes that in case of unlicensed production of armored vehicles, U.S. State Department could block the sale of KAMAZ trucks in the West. In addition, the Russian army would have been depending on the supply of U.S. parts.

    - The buyer of imported weapons should always be prepared, which will depend on the political situation. In such a situation very familiar to Pakistanis, Indians, Venezuelans - recalled in an interview Pukhov, "Izvestia".

    Plans for the purchase of armored vehicles IVECO year ago, said Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov, who found them vastly superior Russian armored "Tiger." Minister for Italians like assurances that the LMV M65 is able to withstand erosion of 8 kg of TNT under his head. Serdyukov personally traveled to Italy to get acquainted with the production of LMV M65, and then followed the testing of these machines in the Russian context.

    For these tests, and were used 10 cars assembled from kits in Kamaz. According to customs declaration, at the disposal of "Izvestia", each Vehicle LMV M65 car factory cost 12 million rubles. For comparison, the "Tiger" is about 5 million

    Now, according to "Izvestia", SKD, "the Bobcats" are trying to establish for a military repair plants in Bryansk. State defense order must be obeyed.


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