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    RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

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    ricky123

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:57 am

    TR1 wrote:How is it backstabbing India?

    China bought more military thing from Russia in the 90s, and is a far bigger trade partner.

    Why would Russia sacrifice all that just for India? That would be counter to basic national interests.
    cuz this helo could be used against india ....
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:29 am

    I don't see what the problem is here.

    The Chinese paid Kamov to create the basic outline design of an attack helo for them based on a few requirements (ie weight, general layout, etc etc).

    The Kamov company created the basic design and then tested it in their facilities to make sure it met Chinese requirements and that was it.

    Everything inside the helo is likely Chinese designed and made... Kamov just designed the basic shape and shell, while China developed it into an operational system so to speak.

    Of course it could be that internal parts might be sourced from different places including Russia, or the west as well as Chinese parts... it is hard to say, but the systems integration will be all Chinese.

    Seems to me to be a good way for Kamov to make some money, get some practice in at developing a new helo, using some of their expertise without handing over any new or secret technology at all.

    The Chinese likely get a good helicopter platform that takes advantage of the knowledge and experience of Kamov so they don't make any obvious mistakes and end up with a dog.

    I rather doubt India had anything to do with it... and to be honest I think this is actually something India should be doing anyway... taking advantage of foreign knowledge, yet also developing domestic production and development potential.

    cuz this helo could be used against india ....

    It is an attack helicopter... not a stealth bomber.

    This helo could just as easily be used against Russia too... the point is that with its Kamov roots they might know a bit more about its potential flight performance envelope than if they had nothing to do with its design.

    At the end of the day unless India wants to crank up its imports of Russian weapons to 16 billion a year this year and even more next year it is going to have to live with the fact that Russia might sell weapons to other countries and those weapons might end up being used against them.

    Besides... India will have Apaches, which are much better than Russian helos anyway... Twisted Evil Razz


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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  gaurav on Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:47 am

    No one should have any doubts that China continues to pillage Russian war industry day-in and day-out.
    Russia is now forced to sell its advanced weapons to China. No need to state Russian arms exports
    will be overwhemled by that of China's exports very soon.
    Strategic experts on Russia-China rivalry


    There is consensus in the Russian strategic community that Moscow should exercise maximum
    restraint in providing China with advanced military technologies. Experts were shocked to find out that
    Chinese engineers had mastered the production of clones of most weapon systems cash-strapped
    Russia supplied to China in the 1990s and early 2000s.

    Russian arms sales to China plummeted in recent years as China switched to domestic production,
    while Moscow became more cautious in offering Beijing cutting-edge technologies.
    Not only did China illegally copy Russian weapon systems, but it also began to export those
    undercutting Russian sales of higher-priced
    original platforms.
    Some experts even called for a complete halt to arms sales to China, arguing that demographic
    pressures and a growing need of resources may one day push China to turn Russian weapons
    against Russia.
    “We should stop selling them the rope to hang us with,”
    warned Alexander Khramchikhin of the Institute for Political and Military Analysis.
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    TR1

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:01 am

    All this panick mongering is funny.

    Russia makes great buisness off China. I hope it continues.

    We have been hearing non stop about Chinas ripoffs overtaking the market.
    How many have they sold so far? Zero.
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:29 am

    More importantly everyone does it... Russia bought production rights for Thermal Imaging cameras from France and now makes their own.

    The money Russian companies earned during the 90s and early 2000s selling to China and India and other countries kept their companies alive and viable... any new technology they sold was based on technology they had at the time... now they have much better funding and equipment (ie supercomputers to test much more and faster without spending anything except for electricity to run the computers). Their production facilities are much more modern too thanks to the money earned then and now.

    If India is upset that Kamov designed a helo for China then why no spend some money and ask Mil to design a helicopter especially for India? I am sure they will be happy to cooperate.

    Even better approach China and buy some of their helos and find out whether we are talking Commanche two or Puma with russian looking bits wielded on. (ie Rambo III)

    Any ethnic Chinese members want to comment on this Indian obsession with Chinese expansionism?

    As a New Zealander I see similar mental complexes in Europeans regarding Russia... aggression and hostility toward everything Russian...


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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Sujoy on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:36 am

    ricky123 wrote:good way to backstab india though angry angry

    Not true .First , Russian exports to China are never going to be top of the shelf product .

    Second , and more importantly Russia has just recently started to sell advanced weapons to China after a lull with the sole intention of checking the USA's "Pivot in Asia" policy .

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:21 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    ricky123 wrote:good way to backstab india though angry angry

    Not true .First , Russian exports to China are never going to be top of the shelf product .

    Second , and more importantly Russia has just recently started to sell advanced weapons to China after a lull with the sole intention of checking the USA's "Pivot in Asia" policy .

    just recently russia was boasting about how Ukraine was selling engines for pakistani tanks but russia was not doing that .. i think they forgot that the rd93 engines russia provides is used in pakis jets ... i do understand that russia needs bussiness .but they have protect india ... china and pakistan are the 2 major threats to india ..

    @tr1 india will continue to buy weapons for russia atleast for the next 30-40 years ..will china do the same ..i donot think so .. if kamov only gave the outlay for the helo why was it kept secret .there is something they r hiding ..

    @gary yes india will get apache which is better .. but if russia keeps providing china then india will have to keep looking at the west to counter those weapons


    @sujoy i know russia doesnt give top tech to china ...but in this case russia has provided the designs and china could easily buy high tech stuff from other countries and fit it in this helo ....


    i am no defense expert just like millions of other indians ..think what would go on in thier minds when media reports russia designed helos for china in secret ..ofcourse none of the main stream media will go in details and explain the india public what exactly russia provided .. same things happened with vikramaditya AC ...this is gonna ruin russia image in india ... as i have said before russia is taking india for granted .. just look at putin .. many people waited for him to tour india .. and how many hours did he stay ..what did he really do ????

    any other western diplomat who comes to india spends some time meeting common people in india and tries to create goodwill ... fk uk prime minister even played cricket and julia gillard (Doesnt matter what aussies think of her) she went to the slums .. met women groups and what not ..... i am very dissapointed ... cuz i have always favoured russia and this hurts..

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    Post  ricky123 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:38 pm

    Russia and China are revitalising defence ties at a time when relations of both with the U.S. have run into rough waters

    Russia is resuming the supply of advanced weapon platforms to China in a move that may have implications for India.

    At the end of last year, Russia concluded a framework agreement with China for the sale of four Amur-1650 diesel submarines. In January it signed another intergovernmental agreement for the supply of Russia’s latest Su-35 long-range fighter planes.

    If the deals go through, it will be for the first time in a decade that Russia has delivered offensive weapons to China.

    It will also mark the first time that Russia has supplied China with more powerful weapon platforms compared with Russian-built systems India has in its arsenals. In the past, the opposite was the rule.


    For example, the Su-30MKK jet fighters Russia sold to China were no match for the Su-30MKIs supplied to India at about the same time. The Chinese planes had an inferior radar and without the thrust vectoring engines the Indian version had.

    This time the situation looks reversed. The Amur-1650 submarine is far more silent and powerful than the Kilo-class submarines the Indian Navy has in its inventory. India’s Su-30MKI will be no match for China’s Su-35 which is powered by a higher thrust engine and boasts a more sophisticated radar, avionics and weapons, according to a leading Russian military expert, Konstantin Makienko.

    China’s acquisition of the Su-35 will also question the wisdom of India’s plan to buy the French Rafale, the expert said.

    “The sale of Su-35s to China will shoot down the value of the Rafale for India,” Mr. Makienko, who is deputy head of Russia’s top defence think tank, Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, told The Hindu.

    “The Rafale will stand no chance against China’s Su-35,” the expert explained. “The Su-35’s Irbis radar has more than twice the detection range of the Rafale’s Thales RBE2, and will lock onto its target well before the Russian plane becomes visible for a retaliatory strike. The 117S engines of the Su-35 are also far more powerful than the Rafale’s Snecma M88.”

    The Russian Air Force is just beginning to take delivery of the new aircraft and China may become the first country to import it. The relatively small number of Su-35s China plans to buy, 24, should not deceive anyone, Mr. Makienko said. China followed the same buying pattern for the Su-27, initially ordering 24 planes and ending up with more than 200 Su-27s and its licence-built version, the J-11.

    The supply to China of more advanced weapon platforms than those available to India appears to contradict some basic geopolitical realities. India remains Russia’s most trusted partner whose defence requirements have never been refused. By contrast, Russia has always been apprehensive of the Chinese dragon and suspicious of its intentions towards resource-rich and population-poor Siberia.
    Calls for restraint

    There is consensus in the Russian strategic community that Moscow should exercise maximum restraint in providing China with advanced military technologies. Experts were shocked to find out that Chinese engineers had mastered the production of clones of most weapon systems cash-strapped Russia supplied to China in the 1990s and early 2000s.

    Russian arms sales to China plummeted in recent years as China switched to domestic production, while Moscow became more cautious in offering Beijing cutting-edge technologies. Not only did China illegally copy Russian weapon systems, but it also began to export those undercutting Russian sales of higher-priced original platforms.

    Some experts even called for a complete halt to arms sales to China, arguing that demographic pressures and a growing need of resources may one day push China to turn Russian weapons against Russia.

    “We should stop selling them the rope to hang us with,” warned Alexander Khramchikhin of the Institute for Political and Military Analysis.

    However, the risks of selling advanced weapons to China took a back seat in Moscow’s calculations after Vladimir Putin returned to the Kremlin for a third term a year ago. Last year, Russia’s state arms exporter, Rosoboronexport, signed contracts with China worth $2.1-billion, the company’s head Anatoly Isaikin said recently. The renewal of sophisticated weapon supplies to China should be seen in the context of geopolitical games in the China-U.S.-Russia triangle.

    “The balance of power between America and China will to a large extend depend on whether and on which side Russia will play,” said Fyodor Lukyanov, foreign policy analyst.

    Russia and China are revitalising defence ties at a time when their relations with the U.S. have run into rough waters. Moscow is deeply disappointed with Mr. Obama’s policy of “reset,” which is seen in Moscow as a U.S. instrument of winning unilateral concessions from Russia, while Beijing views Mr. Obama’s strategic redeployment in the Asia-Pacific region as aimed at containing China.
    Profit motives

    Russian defence sales to China are also driven by profit motives as arms manufacturers seek to compensate for the recent loss of several lucrative contracts in India, where they face growing competition from the U.S., Europe and Israel. Also, Moscow seems to be less concerned today about the so-called “reverse engineering” of Russian weapons in China as the ability of the Chinese industry to copy critical technologies appears to have been overrated.

    “China’s programme of developing the J-11B family of aircraft based on the Su-27 platform has run into problems,” said Vasily Kashin, expert on China. “China’s aircraft engines, which are essentially modified version of Russian engines, are way too inferior to the originals and China continues to depend on the supply of Russian engines.”

    In the past three-four years, China has bought over 1,000 aircraft engines from Russia and is expected to place more orders in coming years.

    “When and if China succeeds in copying Russia’s new weapon platforms the Russian industry will hopefully move ahead with new technologies,” Mr. Kashin said.

    India can also easily offset the advantage that new Russian arms supplies may give China, experts said.

    “To retain its edge in military aviation, India needs to speed up the development of a 5th-generation fighter plane with Russia and go for in-depth upgrade of its fleet of Su-30MKI fighters,” Mr. Makienko said.
    Trade differences

    However, the resumption of massive Russian arms supplies to China could still be a cause for concern in India. Closer defence ties between Moscow and Beijing are an offshoot of strong dynamics of their overall relations. China is Russia’s top commercial partner, with bilateral trade expected to touch $90 billion this year and soar to $200 billion by 2020. Mr. Putin has described China’s rise as “a chance to catch the Chinese wind in the sails of our economy.”

    This contrasts with sluggish trade between India and Russia, which stood at $11 billion last year; even the target of $20 billion the two governments set for 2015 falls short on ambition. India risks being eclipsed by China on the Russian radar screens. As Russia’s top business daily Kommersant noted recently, even today, Russian officials from top to bottom tend to look at India with “drowsy apathy,” while Mr. Putin’s visit to India last year was long on “meaningless protocol” and short on time and substance.
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    Sujoy

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Sujoy on Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:32 pm

    ricky123 wrote:

    @sujoy i know russia doesnt give top tech to china ...but in this case russia has provided the designs and china could easily buy high tech stuff from other countries and fit it in this helo ....

    I guarantee you this is a non issue . Don't sweat the small stuff .

    Helicopter technology is not some cutting edge technology . Since China did not have even the basic expertise they took Russian help in designing it . China cannot buy hi tech stuff from EU & US coz of the arms embargo . For that matter they also have Sikorsky helos that they had bought from US in the 80s.

    Since thousands of engineering graduates both freshers and lateral hires are not finding work in the West they are flocking to China. Also , China has n number of programs to bring back Chinese expatriates into China so that they can work in Chinese defense labs. The synergy that the Chinese Military Industrial Complex has with the defense labs is outstanding .

    These are the questions , that we need to ask ourselves as to why India has failed so miserably to replicate the Chinese strategy .


    ricky123 wrote:i am no defense expert just like millions of other indians ..think what would go on in thier minds when media reports russia designed helos for china in secret ..ofcourse none of the main stream media will go in details and explain the india public what exactly russia provided .. same things happened with vikramaditya AC ...this is gonna ruin russia image in india ... as i have said before russia is taking india for granted .. just look at putin .. many people waited for him to tour india .. and how many hours did he stay ..what did he really do ????

    I share your anguish but there will always be paid media and so there will always be paid media reports . If Russia can hire a few of these mercenary journalists they too will rub eloquence on Russian hardwares just like they do for US products .

    Also , are western groups like Finmecannica / Augusta Westland getting any good press in India . Our news organizations have taken it upon themselves to prove that AugustaWestland is guilty of paying bribes thought till date there is no evidence that they bribed anyone in India .

    ricky123 wrote:any other western diplomat who comes to india spends some time meeting common people in india and tries to create goodwill ... fk uk prime minister even played cricket and julia gillard (Doesnt matter what aussies think of her) she went to the slums .. met women groups and what not ..... i am very dissapointed ... cuz i have always favoured russia and this hurts..

    UK prime minister's bluff was caught and even he realized it . But they are desperate for investments and the UK PM realizes that Indian businesses flush with fund can bail UK out .

    As for the Australian PM , she fell head over heels , watch this :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2ZS-CId_hs

    And trust me this is the only part of her visit that made news .

    True , Putin's visit was ill timed . He came a day before Christmas when half the country is on holiday.

    I have always felt that both sides need to take initiative to boost trade . Russia's trade with Turkey ( a former Cold War enemy ) is thrice as that of Russia's trade with India . Hopefully things will change as soon as India joins the common Customs union of Russia , Belarus & Kazakhstan .

    Regarding the news paper article that you have pasted it seems to be the work of a maverick .

    India will never field the Rafale against the Su 35 . It will be the Super Sukhoi which is a generation ahead of the Su 35 that China will receive .
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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:49 am

    just recently russia was boasting about how Ukraine was selling engines for pakistani tanks but russia was not doing that .. i think they forgot that the rd93 engines russia provides is used in pakis jets ... i do understand that russia needs bussiness .but they have protect india ... china and pakistan are the 2 major threats to india ..

    RD93 engines are old model RD33 engines with the gearbox moved to the bottom. They are the 8.3 ton models. The 9 ton models they are selling India for their Mig-29Ks are almost a generation ahead.

    if kamov only gave the outlay for the helo why was it kept secret .there is something they r hiding ..

    China keeping secrets? Don't believe it! Though perhaps they thought it was no one elses business? Very Happy

    @gary yes india will get apache which is better .. but if russia keeps providing china then india will have to keep looking at the west to counter those weapons

    India never stopped looking elsewhere for stuff... should Russia sell to no one but India?

    @sujoy i know russia doesnt give top tech to china ...but in this case russia has provided the designs and china could easily buy high tech stuff from other countries and fit it in this helo ....

    That is exactly what China will be doing... whether Russia sells them the original shape or not. If they don't sell them anything they will not have any money to develop and improve.

    The Su-30MKI programme benefited India and Russia because Sukhoi learned about new systems and was able to develop a better product. Are you trying to use your business to prevent Russia from doing business with China?

    China is your neighbour, so you might as well try to get along because they are not going anywhere and neither are you.

    .think what would go on in thier minds when media reports russia designed helos for china in secret

    What should be going through their minds is "Why didn't we do the same thing instead of just buying foreign helos?". Of course the result is that China has a largely untested aircraft that might or might not be very good. India has a proven aircraft that does a good job if used correctly.

    .this is gonna ruin russia image in india ... as i have said before russia is taking india for granted .

    Perhaps it is the high sensitivity of the India public that this deal was kept secret.

    Of course having said that Kamov really don't sell that many products to India... the Ka-31 and perhaps a dozen Ka-32/27 related aircraft for the Gorshkov and that would be about it.

    If the deals go through, it will be for the first time in a decade that Russia has delivered offensive weapons to China.

    If the Su-35 and SSK subs are offensive weapons then what are FFGA and an Schuka-B... I would think a 5th gen stealth fighter and an SSN are a generation ahead of a 4++ gen fighter and an SSK.

    It will also mark the first time that Russia has supplied China with more powerful weapon platforms compared with Russian-built systems India has in its arsenals. In the past, the opposite was the rule.

    BS. Russia has offered India SSKs and 4++ gen fighters... and India doesn't seem that overly interested in the SSKs.

    Not only did China illegally copy Russian weapon systems, but it also began to export those undercutting Russian sales of higher-priced original platforms.

    That was a fear, but there are no solid cases of this actually happening.

    India will never field the Rafale against the Su 35 . It will be the Super Sukhoi which is a generation ahead of the Su 35 that China will receive .

    Good point also... the Su-35 that China receives will not have the same systems and equipment as a Russian Su-35, so the question is... how will it compare with the Su-30MKI with upgrades?


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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Viktor on Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:55 pm

    Date of signing contract for fully assembled Su-35/117S will be decided in two weeks

    Estimated price - 1.5 bin $



    China will get assembled Su-35


    The contract to supply China Su-35, preparations for the signing of which is now to be deliverable, not licensed, according to "The Military-Industrial Courier." This agreement involves the delivery to the customer is fully assembled aircraft. According to Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, in the next two weeks in Russia will be representatives of the Chinese leadership, the talks which will decide upon the date of signing the contract.

    At the end of 2012 "Rosoboronexport" and the Ministry of Defense of China signed a preliminary agreement to supply Beijing 24 Su-35 fighters. It is reported that a firm contract could be signed within the next two years, and aircraft deliveries will begin after 2015. The estimated realizable value of the deal is $ 1.5 billion.

    In the spring of 2012 it became known that Russia has managed to persuade China to buy 48 new Su-35 fighters, but to reach final agreement on the amount of purchases and failed. In particular, China has insisted on buying only four Russian fighter jets. Russian representatives at the talks called such an order is not economically profitable, in part because of fears that China will copy the purchased aircraft.

    According AINonline, China may be interested in buying the Su-35 fighters from AL-41F1S ("Product 117C"). Presumably, buying Su-35 and a number of AL-41F1S them, China will be able to get technology "products 117C" and use them to create their own power plants for future fighter J-20.

    LINK



    Now, we need to wait perhapst one or two more years to found about S-400 deal which will happen for sure and with S-400 price tag

    and the numbers China will want to create credible defenses my bet is that deal will not be small.


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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Sujoy on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:21 pm

    Just 24 ...???? Rosoboronexport was pressing for 40 + .

    Seems it won't be long before a SU 35 clone hits the market .
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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Viktor on Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:31 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Just 24 ...???? Rosoboronexport was pressing for 40 + .

    Seems it won't be long before a SU 35 clone hits the market .

    Sujoy, I think the only certain thing that will happen is that Su-35 will get sold. How much and for what

    price remains within domain of speculation and we might find out after the contract is signed. Until than ....

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Sujoy on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:07 pm

    Viktor wrote:Sujoy, I think the only certain thing that will happen is that Su-35 will get sold. How much and for what price remains within domain of speculation and we might find out after the contract is signed. Until than ....

    In the link that you have provided it says US$ 1.5 billion approx for 24 fighters.

    From Rosoboronexport's own estimates at least 48 aircrafts ( from the link you have provided) need to be sold for them to make a profit .

    Question is why did Rosoboronexport settle for 24 fighters ?

    I would think a better market for the SU 35 would be Argentina , Vietnam , Indonesia and maybe even South Africa.

    I sincerely hope & pray that the BRIC bank comes up sooner than later . This will allow the BRIC countries to extend line of credit to each other & other countries in their own currencies. Something that China is already doing.

    Therefore, to purchase Russian military hardware you can take a line of credit from the BRIC bank and pay Russia in roubles rather than in Euros .
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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Viktor on Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:24 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    In the link that you have provided it says US$ 1.5 billion approx for 24 fighters.

    From Rosoboronexport's own estimates at least 48 aircrafts ( from the link you have provided) need to be sold for them to make a profit .

    Question is why did Rosoboronexport settle for 24 fighters ?

    Link provides information about the estimated number and price but still domain of it is speculative.

    Hard and exact numbers will be found once the contract is signed and only than. Nor Russian nor Chinese officials have said anything

    about numbers and price this contract is about for definite. That remains to be seen.



    Sujoy wrote:
    I would think a better market for the SU 35 would be Argentina , Vietnam , Indonesia and maybe even South Africa.

    I agree.

    But I understand Russian desire to cash in on their latest product and show all China forum warriors who is big bad boss in the

    hood Very Happy



    Sujoy wrote:
    I sincerely hope & pray that the BRIC bank comes up sooner than later . This will allow the BRIC countries to extend line of credit to each other & other countries in their own currencies. Something that China is already doing.

    Therefore, to purchase Russian military hardware you can take a line of credit from the BRIC bank and pay Russia in roubles rather than in Euros .

    I have read about it. Thats an excellent idea. Is there a time table for the bank ?
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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TR1 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:51 pm

    Sujoy wrote:Just 24 ...???? Rosoboronexport was pressing for 40 + .

    Seems it won't be long before a SU 35 clone hits the market .

    Just like a Su-27 clone hit the market right Wink ?

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  a89 on Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:42 pm

    Seems it won't be long before a SU 35 clone hits the market


    It still takes a very long time to copy an entire aircraft, even if loads of money are invested. Note that the Chinese clone is based on the Su-27SK, first delivered in the early 1990s. It will be years before China can produce the Su-35 and export it -if they ever do-.
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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:16 am

    This is just a first order... it will be likely that if it suits their purposes that large follow up orders will be very likely.

    It still takes a very long time to copy an entire aircraft, even if loads of money are invested.

    Very good point... even today they need to buy RD93 engines which are actually the 8.2 ton thrust RD33s from the mid 1980s.

    Of course the engines are probably the most complicated part of an aircraft in terms of precision needed and exotic metal alloys.


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    Sujoy

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:04 pm

    a89 wrote:It still takes a very long time to copy an entire aircraft, even if loads of money are invested. Note that the Chinese clone is based on the Su-27SK, first delivered in the early 1990s. It will be years before China can produce the Su-35 and export it -if they ever do-.

    Agreed . What I would say , is that with the passage of time the technology that enables you to design cheaper domestic versions also makes good progress . Also note that a number of engineers from the West are flocking to CHina in search of jobs as jobs dry up in the West .

    http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/life/2012-12/31/content_16070476.htm

    Take the case of the J 15 . It is a Chinese copy of the SU 33

    http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/04-06-2010/113664-china_pirate-0/

    China received the SU 33 from Ukraine in 2001 and carried out the first test flight in 2009 . Subsequently deploying it in 2012 . Infact it could have been deployed in 2011 itself had the carrier been ready .

    In other words the gap is closing between receiving a technology & designing a home grown version.

    Therefore provided China receives the SU 35 within the next 2 years , a Chinese copy of the SU 35 will probably turn up before the end of this decade.
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:24 pm

    Therefore provided China receives the SU 35 within the next 2 years , a Chinese copy of the SU 35 will probably turn up before the end of this decade.

    By which time the money earned from the sales and investment by the Indian and Russian governments in the PAK FA/FFGA fighter program will have resulted in an aircraft a true generation ahead of what has been sold. (note a generation difference from a 4th gen aircraft requires stealth and other 5th gen features... it is not just a better radar and slightly more powerful engines).

    The Chinese... like the Russians and the Indians will use any source for new technology and purchasing is one such source. Cutting them off will not stop their progress, and will cost you money... and to be perfectly honest arms embargoes seem a bit hostile to me, which creates more animosity than their needs to be. Russia and China are not bossom buddies, but they are neighbours and there is no reason for them to hate each other and treat each other as enemies. It is the same with India and China.

    In the worst case scenario where your own weapons are going to be used against you... at least you are familiar with their weapons... imagine the position of the US if Iran had spent up large during the 1990s and bought Mig-31s and Su-27s to replace their F-14s and F-4s, and a lot more Mig-29s upgraded to SMT level, and more importantly the full S-300 SAM network and supporting smaller SAM systems... The problem for Iran is that they really don't trust Russia that much more than they trust the US, though they know that the US is actively acting against them, Russia is not actually their friend either. If they had spent more time building up better relations things might be different even now... they might have a dozen nuclear reactors generating lots of reliable electricity to allow better growth in their economy.

    In many ways Iran needs to expand its income focus from oil just like Russia and in both cases the US and the west are trying to hinder that because they don't want to see a strong Russia or a strong Iran... or anyone else that is not them.


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    Viktor

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Viktor on Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:56 pm

    Well as I said earlier China will buy Su-35 and S-400 and it was only matter of time.

    I believe China has not reached level of Su-35 no matter high pace of its development in the last decade.

    So we have confirmed:

    - 24 Su-35 (I doubt they will stop at 24, this may be only the firs batch)

    - 4 Lada subs (more likely Amour)

    - S-400 (China has previously bought large amounts of Russian air defense)

    - Il-476

    - Il-78 (probably based on Il-476)

    As far as I know Russia has in recent years delivered some refurbished Il-76 from its stocks

    Also this picture is very indicative as it shows China president and its delegation at newly opened Russian command center showing

    Lada sub/S-400/Su-35 (three pictures in second row)



    China to buy Russian fighters, subs: state media



    China has agreed to buy two dozen fighter jets and four submarines from Russia, state media reported Monday, the country's first large-scale weapons technology purchases from Moscow in a decade.

    The agreement to buy the 24 Su-35 fighters and four Lada-class submarines was signed just before President Xi Jinping's weekend visit to Russia, said the People's Daily, the Communist Party organ, citing state television.

    The report, which did not give a value for the purchases, said it was the first time in 10 years China had bought "large military technological equipment" from Russia.

    The deal comes as Beijing expands its military reach -- it commissioned its first aircraft carrier last year -- and is embroiled in a bitter territorial row with Japan over disputed islands in the East China Sea.

    Two of the submarines will be built in Russia, with the other two to be built in China.

    "The Su-35 fighters can effectively reduce pressure on China's air defence before Chinese-made stealth fighters come online," the report said.

    China and Russia are expected to co-operate further in developing military technology, the report said, including that for S-400 long-range anti-aircraft missiles, 117S large thrust engines, IL-476 large transport aircraft and IL-78 aerial tankers.

    China's defence ministry had no immediate comment on the report.

    Xi visited Moscow from Friday to Sunday for talks with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin, his first trip abroad since becoming head of state earlier this month.

    The countries signed around 30 energy and other agreements during the visit.

    Xi also met Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu and became the first foreign leader to visit the Russian armed forces' control centre.

    Moscow and Beijing, which were once bitter foes during the Cold War, have strengthened cooperation in recent years to counterbalance what they see as US global dominance.

    Earlier this month China announced a further double-digit rise in its defence budget, raising it by 10.7 percent to 720.2 billion yuan ($116.3 billion) in 2013.






    LINK
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:45 am

    Lada class SSK is the Amur class, and it is Amur class, nor Armour.

    Amur is a river, which the sub class is named after...


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    TheArmenian

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:24 pm

    I say, sell the Chinese the SU-35.Even sell them a production license and even blueprints. Cash will help in developing new technologies in Russia.
    Let the Chinese reverse engineer (copy) and learn. It will take them a while and they might still fail to make perfect copy (like the Su30 engines).
    By that time, the PAK-FA and newer technology will be fully available in Russia and they will still be at least onegeneration ahead of China.
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:53 pm

    Sell them A Su-35... not the same Su-35 that the Russian AF is getting... Twisted Evil


    Even A Su-35 will improve the Chinese Air Forces capabilities and give them a new standard, so it will be good for them, and the funding and experience will be good for Russian companies too... not just Sukhoi and UAC, but also all the subcontractors involved.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    TR1

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:02 am

    Asking Russia not to do business with China is like asking all the companies and corporations of the world not to do buisness with China- they do it on a MUCH more massive scale, and suffer FAR more losses in terms of IP infringement.

    The whole thing is absurd.
    Do people really think they are more qualified than the Russian MOD as to what can be exported and what cant?
    Are people really more aware of the realtions between the Russian and Chinese govs than the govs themselves?

    It's even funnier when the usual "West strong11!!" suspects (not here, but around other forums) try to bring in the whole China taking over SIberia scenario, something they no doubt mentally masterbate to.

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