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    RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

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    nightcrawler

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  nightcrawler on Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:25 pm

    China has bought the S-300PMU-1 and are licensed to manufacture it under the name Hongqi-10 (HQ-10). China is also the first customer of S-300PMU-2 and may be using the S-300V under the name Hongqi HQ-18.[14] China also built an upgraded version of the HQ-10 labelled the HQ-15 with the maximum range upgraded from 150 km (93 mi) to 200 km (124 mi). There are unconfirmed reports that claim this version is the Chinese manufactured S-300PMU-2.[15][16] The total number of the S-300PMU/1/2 and HQ-15/18 batteries in PLA are approximately 40 and 60 respectively, in the year 2008. The total number of the missiles is well above 1,600, with about 300 launcher platforms.[16] Five such SAM battalions are deployed and in active duty around Beijing region, six battalions in Taiwan strait region and rest battalions in other major cities like Shanghai, Chengdu and Dalian. Two Rif (SA-N-6) systems were purchased in 2002 for the Chinese Navy for the Type 051C Destroyers.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_%28missile%29


    After S-300 they now require S-400 to produce domestically [isn't that obvious]
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:21 pm

    After S-300 they now require S-400 to produce domestically [isn't that obvious]

    It is obvious that their next logical purchase would be S-400.

    What has changed however is that the Russian military is now buying products from the Russian military industrial complex so the Russian MIC is no longer for any sales it can get to survive.

    This means the Russian MIC can look at their track record of sales to the Chinese and the number of "similar" items that appear on the international market after a licence production agreement is signed and they might think that they don't want to have a competitor selling S-400s at reduced prices just yet... maybe in 10 years time when they have S-400PGMU5 they might sell the current model S-400x to the Chinese.

    In other words China can want, but Russia can choose to sell it to them or it can choose not to sell it to them... and I think it wont sell it to them till the Russian military is fully equipped and is starting an upgrade to a new model at the very least.

    Austin

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    Russia will deliver Su-35 fighters and S-400 AD systems to China

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:24 am

    Russia will deliver Su-35 fighters and “Triumph” air defense systems to China

    China hopes to acquire new Russian S-400 Triumph air defense system by 2015, but only the question of delivery of Su-35 fighters to this country is being discussed at the moment, Rossiyskaya Gazeta reports.

    "The Chinese party has shown interest in acquisition of a number of Su-35 jets and submitted a proposal to us in 2011. At present this problem is being elaborated by the designated institution of Russia", - said the First Deputy Director General of Federal Service of Military-Technical Cooperation, Alexander Fomin.

    Speaking of prospects of air defense systems deliveries to China, Fomin has reminded that during a period from 1993 to 2010 a large number of Russian air defense missile systems, including S-300PMU2 “Favorit”, have been delivered to China.

    "As for further cooperation with China in the area of air defense, at present the Chinese partners are showing interest in acquisition of next-generation S-400 Triumph air defense systems. They want to acquire the first batch in 2015", - Fomin said.

    According to Fomin, the prospects of deliveries of S-400 Triumph air defense systems to China may be defined in proportion to deliveries of these systems to the Russian armed forces.

    "At present the construction of additional capacities for production of S-400 Triumph air defense systems is being carried out. China has not shown interest in acquisition of other Russian air defense systems yet", - Fomin said.
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:30 am

    A bit of a false title Austin.

    Russian companies might be happy to deliver systems and equipment to China, but you need more than just Chinese interest.

    Remember in the early 1990s the Chinese were interested in Tu-22M3s too... though they were only interested in one or two... to copy.

    I would rather expect sales of Su-35s to China will require some fairly concrete agreements on not using the technology for their own "versions"... and more importantly I rather think sales will not start till PAK FA begins full production in 2018 or even later.

    I would expect the S-400 to be limited models too.

    Austin

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:34 am

    Not really a false title , it has been in works for some time , both Su-35 and S-400 are of great interest and its officially confirmed as you can see if you read the news.

    The only problem is they are working on mutually acceptable IPR agreements for future defence deal , thats the only stumbling block ..... Russia wouldnt want they end up reverse engineering Su-35 or S-400 by 2020.
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    Viktor

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Viktor on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:22 pm

    I agree with Austin. China has no other option but to buy from Russia as I said few times earlier. Its military R&D was doing just fine as long as there where other countries interested in doing business with China. Well all of them got screwed as China was only interested in copy-pasting and all of them stop trading with them. (haha China for instance wanted to buy only one Rooikvak attack helo)
    So as time passed Russia developed S-400/Su-35 and China developed nothing of that kind but continued buying Russian jet engines.
    Several years has passed now since Russia refused to sell and China to buy and I suspect in that time they came to settle its differences. Remember that EU has not lifted its arms embargo on China witch has still only one option if it want to speed up its development, Russia that is.

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  gloriousfatherland on Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:25 pm

    Well if they buy over 75 Su's well i see no problem with this deal. With regards to triumph S-400 i think they should just go with regular S-400's and this transfer should on take place after the S-500 is operational in Russia Air Force.
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    TR1

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:01 pm

    I don't see China buying the Su-35 at all. Journalist trash IMO. Even if they wanted it, they couldn't get it past 2015. They would have even less interest then. And Russia won't sell a small batch.

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    Viktor

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Viktor on Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:42 pm

    TR1 wrote:I don't see China buying the Su-35 at all. Journalist trash IMO. Even if they wanted it, they couldn't get it past 2015. They would have even less interest then. And Russia won't sell a small batch.


    I dont see China developing anything smart by 2015 and no problem with after 2015 deliveries.

    Its interesting that Il-76MD according to this link will get throw with this year first deliveries.

    http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/


    In September 2005, China and Russia’s Rosoboronexport State Corp had inked an agreement worth US$1.5 billion under which TAPO was to have supplied the PLAAF with 16 IL-76MD transports, with Russia’s Ulyanovsk-based Aviastar-SP supplying the remaining 18 IL-76MDs and four IL-78MKK aerial refuelling tankers. This deal, however, has been frozen since March 2006 due to TAPO’s inability to execute the order. Consequently, Russia took all responsibility for fulfilling the PLAAF’s order, and the first IL-76MD to be built by Aviastar-SP is due for delivery by the end of this year.
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    TR1

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TR1 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:07 am

    China already has domesticated Flanker. It may not be as good as Su-35, but for the obvious reasons they prefer it. A downgraded Su-35 past 2015 will not be interesting considering they will further advance by that point in their domestic Flankers/J-10B. Like I said, I am sure they would love several, but large numbers? Forget about it guys.
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:33 am

    Call me Mr Cynical, but this seems to be the actual story:

    The Chinese party has shown interest in acquisition of a number of Su-35 jets and submitted a proposal to us in 2011.

    In other words they have put in a request for purchase.

    You have walked into a Hi Fi shop and the salesman has appeared and asked how he can help you and you have said you want a new TV and the news report says you are buying a big screen TV and surround sound home entertainment system.

    To put it bluntly this news agency is interviewing the junior sales person, when they should be interviewing the sales manager or the shop owner, because there have been problems in the past with sales to this customer in the past which might affect business arrangements.

    The other option of course would be to interview the customer... but either way the title of this article and therefore is totally misleading as it suggests China will take delivery of Su-35s and S-400, while there is nothing in the article to suggest any such thing.

    I might be paranoid, but I would think it would be American interests that would promote such a story in an attempt to turn India to buy less Russian products and more american systems.

    Of course it could just as easily be a Russian attempt to get India to think about buying S-400 as their new long range SAM in numbers that mean production for China is not possible because of a lack of spare production capacity.

    Either way the title for this thread is not justified by the story posted. If you have any more concrete articles then please post them, otherwise I remain unconvinced.
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    Viktor

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Viktor on Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:41 am

    GarryB wrote:Call me Mr Cynical, but this seems to be the actual story:

    The Chinese party has shown interest in acquisition of a number of Su-35 jets and submitted a proposal to us in 2011.


    Oke, but what about this.


    They want to acquire the first batch in 2015", - Fomin said.
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:13 am

    Errr what about that?

    Any customer that puts in a request for a military product will have a time frame where they want it by.

    Many an aircraft company has lost out on a sale because they couldn't fit a new order into their production schedule and couldn't expand production capacity in time to meet the potential clients requirement.

    Equally there are plenty of companies that have won orders simply because they are ready for production now with a mature product.

    Look at the purchase and licence production of light French helicopters as an example. I would think it would be quite straight forward to get a larger engine for the Mi-34C, or a lighter engine for an ANSAT to create a helicopter in a suitable class.

    Clearly they want it faster than that so they have chosen foreign.

    The same could be said for the Mistral.

    The Russian ship industry could certainly build such a thing themselves, but it would have taken time and testing, and they wanted the things much sooner.
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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Viktor on Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:26 pm

    GarryB wrote:Errr what about that?

    Well it clearly shows China intention to buy not just look around. China wants deliveries. Weather they will like its production schedule is another thing cozz perhaps they will be ok with after 2015 shipment and they will buy or perhaps they wont and they will give up, but in the post above you argued that China is just on a look around tour witch is wrongly interpreted by journalist witch is clearly not the case as China intends to have deliveries.
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:22 am

    The only relevant fact in the article that supports the title is that they are interested and they have a specific time table in mind.

    How that translates into Russia is going to sell both the Su-35 And the S-400 is beyond me.

    Even if China said it wants to buy 200 Su-35s and 50 regiments of S-400, I am sure the Russian MIC will be happy to make the sale with a few agreements on not using the technology to improve their own systems without permission (and payment) and of course to not suddenly come out with their own "version".

    There is little to stop them from making an order and then after the first deliveries claiming the product was not up to the standard they wanted and then cancelling the deal and then using the items delivered to reverse engineer their own model.

    That is pretty much what they did with the Flankers... they bought some till they could make them themselves and then stopped ordering them.

    Obviously things like jet engines are tremendously difficult to make let alone reverse engineer.

    Nothing can happen till they get Russian Government approval, so talk from Sukhoi or Antei-Almaz is interesting, but it will likely be Medvedev or Putin that have the final say and unless there is concrete evidence that China will not repeat what they have done in the past then I think this will just remain talk.

    Having said that it is not a huge step for China to change from what it has been doing (ie copying without a licence) to what Russia is doing (buying the licence to produce foreign technology and then building on that to make Russian technology better).
    It is not like the Chinese can't afford to simply buy certain technologies from overseas.
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    Viktor

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Viktor on Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:08 pm

    Russia Close to Sign Su-35 Fighter Deal With China

    http://en.rian.ru/world/20120306/171780246.html

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Firebird on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:16 pm

    Viktor wrote:Russia Close to Sign Su-35 Fighter Deal With China

    http://en.rian.ru/world/20120306/171780246.html

    Is this a good idea? Su-35 is a very good plane. China has a serial history of copying. Then using cheap/slave labour to undercut Russia in intl markets.
    China is also the big longterm threat to Russia's enviable land and resources.

    The only real justification for this is if they're considered "old hat" when Ru stealth planes are introduced.

    Personally, I'd have prob told China to get lost..( In the most diplomatic way, ofcourse : ) )
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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:22 pm

    Firebird wrote:
    Viktor wrote:Russia Close to Sign Su-35 Fighter Deal With China

    http://en.rian.ru/world/20120306/171780246.html

    Is this a good idea? Su-35 is a very good plane. China has a serial history of copying. Then using cheap/slave labour to undercut Russia in intl markets.
    China is also the big longterm threat to Russia's enviable land and resources.

    The only real justification for this is if they're considered "old hat" when Ru stealth planes are introduced.

    Personally, I'd have prob told China to get lost..( In the most diplomatic way, ofcourse : ) )

    Relax. It is not the PAK-FA they will be selling them.
    By the time the Chinese receive the Su-35s and by the time they end up reverse- engineering them (copying), it will be 2020 - 2025.
    By that time, the revenues generated from the sale will be used by the Russians to develop newer weapons and technologies.
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    Viktor

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    Russia Close to Sign Su-35 Fighter Deal With China

    Post  Viktor on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:33 pm

    Su-35BM is a export version and as export version should be exported. Only thing with China is that Russia should protect its intellectual rights.

    I bet China will not stop at 50 Su-35BM, more will follow same as S-400 and Russia can make big bucks from it. By the time China copy-paste those items if it chose to do so Russia will advance to next step.

    Even with all Russian fighters being sold to China and China 20 year time to copy-paste and perfect it, it has not being able to do so cozz now instead of Bars you have Irbis and instead of Al31 you have 117S and L-Band AESA and much more .. so it is evident that by purely copy-pasting you can never surpass the original who is always advancing.

    btw it will be interesting to see what China intends to place on Varyag Laughing

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Austin on Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:20 am

    Russian industry wary of Su-35 sale to China
    Janes Defence Weekly March 13
    Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent
    Kiev

    Key Points

    Fears that China could reverse-engineer the Sukhoi Su-35 are threatening a deal on the aircraft, according to Russian sources

    The sources believe that China has agreed to buy 48 of the aircraft to allow indigenous manufacturers access to its fire control radar and engine


    Russian fears that China would copy its Sukhoi Su-35 fighter aircraft may yet scupper a deal that Moscow and Beijing are reportedly close to signing for an export sale of the fighter to the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

    A source in the Russian government told the influential Moscow daily Kommersant : "The two sides are in practical agreement regarding the delivery to the PRC [People's Republic of China] of 48 Su -35s at a cost of USD4 billion."

    However, reports on this sale continue with the additional detail that "an unanticipated obstacle to the deal has emerged. Moscow is requiring that Beijing provide a legally binding guarantee that it will refrain from making reverse engineered copies of the Russian fighter - largely so that this does not create a potential competitor in the market to sell the aircraft to other countries. China is no hurry to provide this guarantee."

    Russian sources close to the Federal Service for Military-Technical Co-operation (FSVTS) state that such a guarantee "is an essential condition" of the sale. Some of the same industry sources point ou t that the Chinese have used their assistance from Russia or have copied designs to create competitors for almost every class of combat
    aircraft that Russian industry offers for export and they do not want a repeat of this experience.

    "No one really believes that the Chinese will actually purchase all 48 Su-35s," one industry representative told IHS Jane's . "They may sign a contract that says they are obligated to take delivery of all 48 but after they have received some number of aeroplanes they will truncate the deal, just as they did with the licence production of the Su -27SK."

    China's Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) signed an agreement in 1995 to manufacture 200 Su -27SK aircraft but only ended up building 95 of these models before Russia says it cancelled production and started producing the J-11B, its own "illegal" copy of the aircraft.

    The J-11B has also has been offered to export customers as an alternative to the Russian Su -27 and Su-30MK models. Shenyang, industry sources point out, has also created a copy of the Su-33 carrier-capable fighter -developed from one of the T-10K/Su-27K prototypes that remained in Feodosia, Ukraine, after the break-up of the
    Soviet Union - in the form of the J-15. Another Chinese fighter designated J-16 and also from Shenyang is claimed by Russia to be an illegal copy of the Su-30MK2.

    Some of the same Russian sources recount that the cheaper, simpler fighter designs offered by China have already damaged Russian export prospects. The Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 model, which is a modernised and modified variant on the Mikoyan MiG-21, is credited with ruining chances for a sale of the MiG-29 in Egypt and causing problems with a MiG-29 sale to Myanmar. The issue was so serious that "in July 2010 the Russian Presidential Adminis tration commissioned a study on the subject," said one source.

    "We have reliable customers like Venezuela standing in line waiting for this aircraft; they would like to have the Su -35, will purchase all the aircraft that they initially sign for and will not try to copy the aircraft as the Chinese intend to do," said a Russian industry representative. "It makes no sense to let the Chinese jump the queue in front of these buyers.

    Some of us would be happier if this deal with Beijing is just never signed because we know how it will end."

    Some of the same Russian industry representatives who have experience in working with China on previous sales and licence-production of the Su-27SK/J-11 have previously told IHS Jane's that Chinese manufacturers were looking to acquire the technology that is on board the aircraft, specifically the NIIP Irbis -E passive electronically scanned- array radar and the Saturn/Lyulka 117S jet engine, a next-generation modernisation of the Su-27's AL-31F engine.

    The 117S is at present also the powerplant used in the Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA fifth-generation fighter undergoing flight testing at the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Zhukovskiy. A Chinese request in 2010 to purchase an unspecified number of 117S engines, assumed to be for use in the new Chengdu Machine No 2001/J-20 stealth attack aircraft programme, has not been signed-off.

    The assessment of Russian military technology analysts who have been following the history of defence co -operation with China is that Beijing's aerospace industry has hit a technological bottleneck in its work on building copies of the Su-27, which contains a radar and other systems designed more than 30 years ago. The function of the Su -35 purchase, they assert, is to give the Shenyang design team access to more contemporary Russian know-how.

    "Preparing to purchase such a large number of these fighters is a clear indication that the Chinese have come up against serious technical problems in the process of their work to make modifications to their aircraft, which are based on the Su-27," said Vasily Kashin, one of the specialists at the Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and

    Technologies (CAST), a Moscow think-tank with close ties to Russian industry. "With this purchase they can learn about new-age fighter aircraft [design]," he said. It is not clear what the PLAAF would be receiving in the Su-35 deal in addition to the aircraft (in terms of additional engines, weaponry, spare parts and so on). According to the contract negotiations thus far the Su -35s would cost about USD85 million per unit, which is considerably higher than the USD50 million per aircraft that is supposedly the price charged to the Russian Air Force. Sources close to the intergovernmental commission discussing the sale state that "the price may change in the process of negotiations".
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:10 am

    I think Klimov, who make the RD-33 engines for the Mig-29 series should approach the Chinese and offer to make as a joint venture a new engine in the 12 ton thrust class based on the RD-33 for use in Mig-29s, Mig-35s, and JF-17s.

    Basically the Chinese pay for the development and testing and both end up with the engine technology.

    Klimov is already working on new helo engines (VK2500) for the new Russian attack helos in the 10-12 ton class, so they are hardly going to go bust, but if the Mig-35 is not bought by the Russian AF and export sales of Migs doesn't change soon there could be a problem.

    If the Russian AF... and India and Egypt etc don't want Mig-35s then it is up to the companies that offer that to either improve their offer or change tack.

    A 12 ton thrust RD-33 5th gen engine with perhaps dry thrust in the region of 7-8 tons could result in a supercruising Mig-29/35 with astounding flight performance.

    The new 5 weapon pylon wing could be revised with the wingtips getting new positions to allow wingtip pods to be carried, either jamming pods or perhaps even decoy/jammer towing pods.
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    Viktor

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    China signs for 500+ min $ D-30 engines

    Post  Viktor on Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:55 pm

    Its about 184 D-30 engines for China.


    "Saturn" will deliver 184 aircraft engines to China

    Scientific and Production Association "Saturn" sells a contract to supply China with 184 aircraft engine type D-30 transmission for military transport aircraft Il-76, said Oct. 1 managing director of the company Ilya Fedorov. The contract was signed in November 2011 and entered into force in February 2012, RIA "Novosti". "At D-30 CP - we make a big order for China is very big. This 184 engine. Order amount more than half a billion dollars," - said Mr. Fedorov.

    http://vpk.name/news/76316_npo_saturn_postavit_v_kitai_184_aviadvigatelya.html

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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:10 am

    J-20?


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    TR1

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TR1 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:21 am

    No way, more likely the Il-76 fleet + that new transport that we have been hearing about.

    They ordered many Al-31s recently as well, so enough for J-20 Wink.
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    TR1

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TR1 on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:31 am

    Here we, go, from an earlier post of mine (on another forum Very Happy):

    http://lenta.ru/news/2012/05/31/salyut/
    Engine contracts with China, include

    -Early 2012, contract for 140 Al-31F
    -2011, contract for 150 Al-31F
    -Contract for 123 Al-31FN
    -Fall 2011, contract for 184 D-30KP2.


    Past 2.5 years, engine contracts with China surpassed 4 billion dollars; Salut factory loaded till 2015. It is expected that China will increase Al-31F order, seeking more modern and powerful variants.

    Article also says D-30 will be used on Y-20 (and Il-76 and H-6).


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